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10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

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Mrs Pamela Fenn's Witness Statement of 20th August 2007...

1. I tend to think she told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
 
2. I think some parts of it were true, but other parts of it were not
 
3. I tend to think that this was an untruthful statement
 
4. I am not sure what to make of it
 
 
 
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by skyrocket on 05.01.19 10:09


@Sharoni – hi. @Verdi - take a deep breath.
 
I appreciate this is off topic but as it has been raised I’d like to address the ‘extra cot/beds’ issue because I believe that it is important.
 
The extra cot requests were simply made in response to MarkWarner policy at the time of booking. On booking every child 2 years and up was allocated a bed by the booking system.
 
The McCanns: 2 adults + 3 children over 2 years; 2 bedroom apartment with 5 bed spaces required (by booking system)
 
The booking form automatically generated the allocation of ‘extra bed x 1
 
The McCanns would have been automatically given an apartment with 5 bed spaces available i.e. a bed sofa in the lounge area.
 
The Paynes: 3 adults + 1 child over 2 + 1 child under 2; 2 bed apartment with 4 bed spaces required
 
The booking form automatically generated the allocation of ‘cot x 1’ for baby Scarlet (this can be found in the line at the bottom of ‘Guest List 1’)
 
The Paynes would have been automatically given an apartment with a minimum of 4 bed spaces
 
During booking, the McCanns and Paynes then request 3 extra cots for Sean, Amelie and Lily.
 
The McCann apartment should then have had 5 beds (incl. sofa bed as 1) and 2 cots, and the Paynes apartment 4 beds (may also be a sofa bed as standard) and 2 cots.
 
We know G5A had 2 twin bedrooms and 2 cots; we don’t know if there was a sofa bed.
 
We know G5H had a double and a twin bedroom and 2 cots; we know there was a sofa bed in the lounge area.
 
Why does G5H seem a sensitive topic – constantly brought up as the ‘biggest’ apartment?
 
Why does Matthew Oldfield’s description of G5A better fit G5H?
 
Why was there none of Madeleine’s DNA in G5A? (the dogs were not looking for this when they searched)
 
Why would a grandmother (Dianne) sleep on a sofa bed in a communal area (with the need to make the bed up every night and pack away every morning) when according to the family there were 2 spare single beds in Lily’s room? If she had slept in with Lily, as expected by MarkWarner, there would have been no need for a sofa bed. Was this ‘extra’ bed sensitive to the group?
 
Sofa beds were not required by either the Mcs or the Paynes, as the twins were using cots. Was Dianne said to be sleeping on the sofa bed in G5H to justify the Paynes being in that apartment and the Mcs in G5A? Did something happen to Madeleine in G5H and the ‘crime scene (whatever the crime)’ was moved?
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Tony Bennett on 05.01.19 10:59

@Verdi wrote:So much of this illusion is about timing,  not the Team McCann fictive timelines but real time as in the aftermath and the long term strategy - the wider agenda.

1.  Pamela Fenn's witness statement - 22nd August 2007

2.  Martin Smith's alert - 20th September 2007.   Not 9th September when he claims to have watched the television footage of the Mcanns return to the UK but 11 days later.

Following the disturbing visit and forensic inspection by the magnificent duo, Eddie and Keela on  6th/7th August 2007, things started to look very awkward for Messrs McCann.  By their own admission they began plans for a return to England despite previously saying they would never leave without their daughter Madeleine.  Within the same period, the government Media Monitoring Unit director Clarence Mitchell,  resigned his position to take up permanent employment representing the McCanns full-time. 

It is not known exactly when Brian Kennedy, the double glazing magnate, was engaged as their wealthy benefactor and ring leader but it was publicly announced during the same period of time - August/September/October 2007.

Curiously, again during this same period, Pamela Fenn gave her first official witness statement and Martin Smith not only publicly refuted reports about his original witness statement taken in May 2007 (August 2007), many days after the event but also in September 2007 he resurfaces with yet another surprise claim.  Not, I hasten to add, on 9th September 2007 when he claims to have watched television footage of the McCanns hasty return the the UK but eleven days later.

August and September 2007 was a very  significant time for Team McCann .... followed closely by Dr Amaral's removal from the case at the beginning of October 2007 .... the McCanns request for re-interview of named key witnesses by rogatory (in their favour) in October 2007 .... the Rothley Court Hotel meeting in November 2007 .... a media blitz in December 2007 .... new and revamped witness sightings pioneered by Brian Kennedy and representative in January 2008 .... the rogatory interviews in April 2008.

As they say, time is of the essence.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t15551-bearing-false-witness#391176

This is an interesting post, thank you @ Verdi.

I was about to note that this discussion was moving somewhat off-topic and was going to suggest that this is a good thing, as the discussion is flowing. I was going to add some comment about cots and beds as well.

In both respects @ skyrocket has anticipated me, and I agree with him that we should let the conversation move along on this thread.

I was going to suggest that there is almost enough material on the subject of 'cots and beds' for there to be a new 'cots and beds' thread set up. But no, let's keep talking here.

One point I remembered from MMRG's first '50 FACTS' leaflet was this:

-------

QUOTE: FACT 10. Gerry McCann on 4 May (the day after Madeleine went missing) said: Yesterday, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found a bed where Madeleine was supposed to have slept and two cots. Moreover, in a magazine interview in January 2008, Gerry McCann said: “On one bed the twins lay sleeping”.   UNQUOTE
-------
That IMO tends to suggest that the entire story about the beds and cots is not right at all.
As regards @ skyrocket's post, I think the data about G5H and G5A are both interesting and useful, but I cannot see how we get to his deduction that Madeleine might have died in G5H. I would like to hear a more detailed explanation. One other point of note: I think Kate McCann said in evidence somewhere that the curtains and windows in the 'children's room' in G5A were 'closed all week'. That is a very odd comment anyway, but especially so as from Monday morning the weather changed from being hot and sunny (Sunday) to cooler, cloudier and windier, with occasional rain.  

Before moving on @ Verdi, one correction: Pamela Fenn's statement was not made on 22 August but on Monday 20 August: 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

I would also add that the ridiculous statements by Martin Smith (20 September) and Richard McCluskey (25 September) purporting to 'recognise' Gerry McCann from 'the way he was carrying his child' are most likely to have been made by those backing Robert Murat and opposing the McCanns.

=====

The subject of cots and beds reminded me of an incident concerning a cot related by Neil Berry. Here is part of his statement made in April 2018 (a Rogatory statement). There are a number of aspects of his statement which I find of interest.

What is the connection (if any) between Berry & Balu and the Jensen/Wiltshire sisters - who later made very questionable statements  identifying a would-be abductor? (their statements were taken by Gary Hagland, Brian Kennedy's money-laundering expert who once flew to Saturn and back with aliens).

Also, is it mere coincidence that Balu and Berry's wives had both previously worked for the same company.

Here is Berry's statement of 18 April 2008. I have highlighted some points that I think are of interest:


At about 16.00 we were at the swimming pool bar within the complex. It was at this time that we had a few drinks with Raj Balu, Jayne Jensen and Anne Wiltshire, as I testified in my statement of 8th January 2008. My family returned to the apartment at about 17.000 and the four of us remained at the pool bar. I must have stayed there for another half an hour before joining my family in the apartment. When I left Jensen and Wiltshire remained at the bar. I do not remember whether Raj left with me or whether he stayed at the bar. From there I returned to my apartment and to my family.

With regard to where I took my meals and with whom:


I do not remember what we did at lunchtime on 3rd May. I only remember about the evening. I tried to reserve a table at the Tapas Bar for that night but it was fully booked. I spoke about this with Raj Balu and we decided to order a meal from the restaurant and we dined together in our apartment, as testified in my statement of 7th May 2007.

With regard to where I was at 18.00, whom I was with and the fact that I was seen by a witness at this time next to stairs and lift of block 5 of the Ocean Club:


I am not certain where I was at 18.00. It is possible that I was already in my apartment or returning from the bar. In order to arrive at my apartment I would walk along the side of the pool, crossing the stairs of block 4. If I were with someone, this person would be Raj, but as I have already said I do not remember whether I returned with him or before him. I do not remember having seen a lift in any of the apartment blocks. I was not in block 5, but had to pass by it in order to arrive at my apartment. It is possible that I was on the other side of the street opposite block five.

With relation to one of the Ocean Club employees having passed close by:


I do not remember having seen Ocean Club staff collecting dirty laundry at this hour.

With relation to where I was between 18.00 and 23.00:


After I returned to the apartment I was with my wife and children. The children went to bed at 19.00 and Raj arrived at our apartment with his family, carrying a cot for his son. We did not manage to set the cot up and I went to find a member of staff. I found a Mark Warner employee, whose name I cannot remember but she was the girlfriend of a maintenance employee called Rob. She accompanied us back to the apartment and managed to set up the cot. We put Raj's child to bed and sat down to relax and have a drink, once the children were asleep.

At about 20.00 Raj and I went to the Tapas restaurant to place our order and wait for our meal. I think that we had a drink while we waited. I do not remember exactly what we ordered but I think it included red cabbage. When we left with the meal we took the same walk back, along the pool, crossing the road back to the apartment. I think that our apartment was 4G.


I remember that at dinner that the McCanns were not at the restaurant at the time that we left and we did not see them while Raj and I were there.

Once back at the apartment we had dinner and remained there.

From 22.00 onwards all the events that took place were already described in my previous statement of 7th May 2007 and i cannot add any further information, other than that which was already added.

With regard to Rajinder Balu:


I met Raj at the welcome ceremony when we arrived at the resort on 28th April 2007. I did not travel with him and we had not met before. I got on well with him and later on we discovered that our wives had both worked for the same company. We did not normally spend the days together, but we would meet up on some evenings to dine and drink. Raj and I spent two evenings watching football matches in a local bar. I do not remember any other information or explanations that are relevant or which could in any way help this inquiry.

        
  


 


22

10. Gerry McCann on 4 May (the day after Madeleine went missing) said: “Yesterday, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found a bed where Madeleine was supposed to have slept and two cots. Moreover, in a magazine interview in January 2008, Gerry McCann said: “On one bed the twins lay sleeping”.

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"If a person were to witness and identify someone in a child abduction, why on earth would they engage with the private investigators employed by the person they claim they saw?  
IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE".
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Verdi on 05.01.19 11:55

There is good reason for keeping threads on topic, a little digression here and there is acceptable (heaven knows I do it myself) - I'd go so far as to say unavoidable, so there lies the reasoning for getting back on track before the topic turns into the proverbial shaggy dog story.

There are a number of search facilities on CMoMM for the benefit of readers to locate topics of interest to them.  If searching for a specific subject, say the last photograph for example,  I personally find it infuriating to land on page after page pondering the length of Aunt Gert's knicker elastic or what happened to Uncle Dave's false teeth after he put them out on the kitchen windowsill for a laugh.

The forum is packed with valuable information relative to the case of missing Madeleine McCann, navigating the forum is an adventure, a voyage of discovery, especially to new members and readers who are unfamiliar with the case detail.  It's important and good for the reader to delve into the wealth of information contained within the forum - it should be encouraged not halted by one particular thread that is allowed to flow from one subject to another. 

All members are asked to stay on topic and only stray within the bounds of what is considered reasonable.  You are asked to respect the few forum rules in place, they are there to maintain the integrity of the forum.  If, as in this case, the subject of beds and cots is of interest then please feel free to start a new topic.

Thank you for understanding.

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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Phoebe on 05.01.19 14:30

If Mrs Fenn was working on behalf of the McCanns then they had three and a half months from May 4th until August 20th (when she gave her official statement) to get her to say what they wanted.
 Seventeen days after Mrs Fenn made her statement (claiming to have heard crying for 75 mins on the Tuesday night) Kate McCann (Sept 6th) categorically stated that what Mrs. Fenn had claimed about the crying was untrue.  She claims instead that on the night in question (Tue) Amelie was crying after midnight and that, as a result, Madeleine came and slept in their room for the remainder of the night.
Why would the McCanns put Mrs. Fenn up to telling a story about crying with which they would, just over two weeks later, rubbish. It makes no sense! If the McCanns wanted Mrs. Fenn to lie for them they had ample time to communicate what they wanted her to say. IMO all the indications are that Mrs. Fenn was not acting on behalf of the McCanns. This is why Kate tries to depict her as a snobbish, unfeeling old woman in her book.

edited to add 
 This statement of Kate's is one of the most revealing. She states clearly that the cots in the apartment were placed in situ ie. - in the children's room, on Sat April 28th, and remained there constantly during the week. Therefore, if the cleaner says that she saw, while carrying out her duties, a cot in the parent's room (which Kate categorically denies) this can only have happened on the Monday or Wednesday morning of that week as these were the cleaning days. There is no reason for the cleaner to lie about this detail.
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by aquila on 05.01.19 14:44

You really do miss the point Phoebe.
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Phoebe on 05.01.19 14:52

@aquila wrote:You really do miss the point Phoebe.
Perhaps you could enlighten me Aquila - why would the McCanns get Mrs Fenn to make a bogus statement on August 20th saying she heard crying from the apartment for an hour and fifteen minutes on Tuesday night and then, just over two weeks later, claim that was Mrs. Fenn stated was totally untrue.
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Flossy on 05.01.19 17:12

I believe Mrs Fenn told the  truth. I think it alerts us to the fact that the Mccanns were, at least on one occasion, in the habit of leaving their children unattended for longer periods than 30mins.   This then brings into question the time line presented for the night of the 3rd May. Were the checks done at least every 30mins.  On the initial post, the question is posed that if Mrs Fenn did hear a child cry for 75mins why did she do.nothing. I believe that this is not unusual. There have been numerous cases of slterriblw crimes being committed whilst been witnessed (or heard) by bystanders. In such cases there is a diffusion or responsibility that occurs. People won't take responsibility because they believe it is not their responsibility to intervene or call the relevant authorities. I had a reminder of this today when I assisted a child who had got separated from his parents. I witnessed at least 10 people pass him before I could get to him to help. The child was crying out for his mummy so it was obvious he needed help. When people can directly witness such things and do nothing it is not surprising that one lady does not intervene when she hears a child crying in the apartment below hers.
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Tony Bennett on 05.01.19 17:30

@Phoebe wrote:
@aquila wrote:You really do miss the point Phoebe.
Perhaps you could enlighten me Aquila - why would the McCanns get Mrs Fenn to make a bogus statement on August 20th saying she heard crying from the apartment for an hour and fifteen minutes on Tuesday night and then, just over two weeks later, claim that was Mrs. Fenn stated was totally untrue.

This is a case in a million. It is NOT an 'Occam's Razor' case.

Therefore we must consider all sorts of scenarios in order to arrive at an understanding of the truth.

Moreover, Praia da Luz seems to have had some weird characters. Sir Clement Freud. The Murat family. The Eveleighs and their 'adult' holidays. Sergey Malinka. The 'ShiningInLuz' character who does the 'McCann mystery' tours. Father Haynes Hubbard and his wife Susan, who jetted in to Praia da Luz three days after Madeleine was reported missing. Father Jose Pacheco. Edward Smethurst, the McCanns' 'co-ordinating solicitor', has holidayed there every summer for 19 years. Jon Corner used to go there often. Martin Smith and his family have an apartment there. And so on.  

Consider the claim that David Payne visited the McCanns' apartment at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May. We found out later, by analysing the statements, that there were at least 20 (TWENTY) flat contradictions between their two accounts, which amounts to virtual proof that both fabricated their statements. So how did this happen?

Here is a suggestion. Suppose, after Sunday, there was a 'master planner' directing how the hoax would be carried out. He would have delegated Jane Tanner to fabricate an abductor. He would have appointed Nuno Lourenco to take a photo of Wojchiech Krokowski's car and then report an alleged attempted abduction on the morning of Saturday 5 May to try and divert Goncalo Amaral's team.

Did he also say to David Payne and Kate McCann: "Look, David, tell the police you visited Kate at about 6.30pm for some reason or another. That'll help prove Madeleine was alive then".  Suppose the two told the police that.

Then come their problems. To test their stories, the police ask a few key questions, like: Did you enter the apartment? How long were you there? What were the children doing? What were they wearing? Did you sit down? What was Kate doing?  Why did you go there anyway? What did you talk about?

And then, of course, their fabricated story completely breaks down as each desperately invents what is supposed to have happened!

And doubtless that is why Goncalo Amaral did not accept their fabricated accounts as evidence.

What about Mrs Fenn? We know little about her, her history, her connections, etc. Her niece Carole Tranmer's statement lacked credibility, just like Mrs Fenn's. She (CT) also seemed to have a connection with the army training college at Sandhurst.  

What if Mrs Fenn was given an outline statement, and then fluffed her lines when it came to the details? Could she have been told to tell police that she heard "a child of more than two years old crying" on the Tuesday night and that she had suffered a burglary (when in fact neither was true)?      

Mrs Fenn said that her reported evidence was "all rubbish - ignore it". Is the simplest explanation here that indeed the whole of her statement was concocted rubbish from start to finish?


.

____________________

"If a person were to witness and identify someone in a child abduction, why on earth would they engage with the private investigators employed by the person they claim they saw?  
IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE".
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Verdi on 05.01.19 20:40

@Tony Bennett wrote:What about Mrs Fenn? We know little about her, her history, her connections, etc. Her niece Carole Tranmer's statement lacked credibility, just like Mrs Fenn's. She (CT) also seemed to have a connection with the army training college at Sandhurst. 

Carole Tranmer is indeed an enigma. 

When fiercely defending Pamela Fenn, people conveniently forget to take into consideration her niece's seemingly unnecessary lengthy testimony taken by Leicestershire Constabulary in April 2008.  Pamela Fenn's testimony cannot be successfully debated without factoring in that of Carole Tranmer, her niece. 

In reality Carole Tranmer's only input was the tale of a lurking stranger she saw at the foot of the stone steps that led to the veranda of apartment 5a.  Just how many more tales of lurking men are required to convince people that it's all contrived to reinforce the abduction claim - all fabrication.

Question remains unanswered - who prompted her to come forward with tales of her visit to Luz and the lurking stranger and why?

Strangers appearing on a nearby balcony leaving a pile of cigarette ends;  a lurking man at the foot of apartment 5a block stairwell;  the stranger at the foot of apartment 5a veranda steps;  the suspicious man lurking in the vicinity of apartment 5a block.  Then later along comes a series of sightings old and new to spice-up the mix.

A crying child;  an attempted burglary (no confirmation of a police report);  a lurking stranger.  Pamela Fenn was a resident - a local, for sure she would be acquainted with other residents, particularly of British origin.  I should be very surprised if she wasn't acquainted with Jenny Murat, Robert Murat's mother, being from a similar generation.

So what exactly did Pamela Fenn and her niece Carole Tranmer have to offer?  Nothing as far as I can see - yet still they are a focal point of the global deception.

Makes you think doesn't it?

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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Tuppence on 05.01.19 23:38

I know I posted this a while back but wondered if it was possible that the Baby Monitor could have been used to project the crying heard by Mrs Fenn. In other words, the child heard crying may not have been in the apartment at all but elsewhere and the monitor was used to project the crying ? It may be the monitor could not be used in that way. I don't know. Just a thought
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Verdi on 06.01.19 0:00

Pamela Fenn was apparently in her apartment when the alarm was raised.

Beyond a shadow of doubt, she would have been questioned during the PJ's routine house to house calls.

During this routine process, if Pamela Fenn gave any information or had any information to assist the investigation she would have been called upon to give a formal statement.

This didn't happen immediately following Madeleine's alleged disappearance.

Pamela Fenn gave a formal statement to the PJ over three months later, in August 2007.

No more need be said.

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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by Phoebe on 06.01.19 0:16

In her interview with Mrs. Fenn she clearly states that "I have been here for three months and in all this time I've never spoken to a journalist. They've written rubbish in the newspapers. I've never even uttered  word. I've never - it's all rubbish. Please, please , its a joke forget it"

Given what she says and her obvious annoyance about being hassled by a film crew it is clear IMO that she is refuting NOT HER SWORN EVIDENCE TO THE POLICE" but the speculative nonsense written about her in the tabloid rags.

I consider it beyond credulity that Team McCann approached Mrs. Fenn and asked her to say that she heard a child crying, with mounting distress, for an hour and a quarter on Tuesday or indeed any other night.
What possible purpose could such a fabrication serve - to prove Madeleine was still alive on Tuesday. There was no need - the police already believed she had been alive and well two days later. Was it to  prove that the children were left in the apartments during dinner. Again, no need to prove this - the police already accepted this. The main effect of Mrs. Fenn's statement was to make people doubt A) that they checked on the children as regularly as they claimed and B) to belie their claim that their children were always safely asleep during their absence while they wined and dined.
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Re: 10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007

Post by aquila on 06.01.19 14:41

Dear Phoebe, I still think you are missing the point and I am not being mean to you.

Suspend common goodness and common sense for a moment and take a look at the manifestation of a dirty campaign.

aquila. X
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