Re: Was Wojcek Krokowski - 'Sagres man with a camera' - the template for both 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman'?

by **Tony Bennett** 14.11.14 7:25

roy rovers wrote:Tony - perhaps Nuno Lourenco saw something

'Saw something'??, roy rovers? Have you read his full statement yet? He alleges that Krokowski tried to kidnap his 3-year-old daughter

and reported it including a description to his hosts

Who were 'his hosts' please? I don't get that. He was staying with his mother.

at the time but not to the police.

There is zero evidence for this possibility of course.

His hosts then both passed it on to the McC's

No evidence

and encouraged him to report it to the police.

No evidence

He might have messed up /added a few details after the passage of time by the time he reported it.

No evidence

So Nuno Lourenco need not have been a co-conspirator for your theory to work.

There are two major problems with his tale:

1. The tale itself is unconvincing, especially the garbled account of the alleged kidnapping on the front door-step of a pastry shop - to which it appears no other witnesses have come forward

2. He didn't report the man photographing his and other children with his camera. He didn't report the alleged kidnapping. He threw away the registration number of Krokowski's car. Each one of these raises suspicions about his tale, in exactly the same way that there is concern because the Smiths didn't report their sighting of 'Smithman' for 13 days.

The connections in this story to Robert Murat and his aunt & uncle Sally and Ralph Eveleigh also raises eyebrows.

by NickE 14.11.14 8:35

Could Nuno be one of them to be interviewed in a few weeks?

by **Tony Bennett** 14.11.14 9:19

NickE wrote:Could Nuno be one of them to be interviewed in a few weeks?

He lives in Germany.

His mother lives in Sagres.

Or so we were told.

by NickE 14.11.14 9:39

Tony Bennett wrote:
NickE wrote:Could Nuno be one of them to be interviewed in a few weeks?
He lives in Germany.

His mother lives in Sagres.

Or so we were told.

Thank's Tony.

by FH 14.11.14 10:41

If this really happened as described, I could (at a stretch) imagine why a foreigner, who did not speak the language and was on holiday and heading home in a couple of days, might not go to the police and report someone may have been taking photos of their children (he did not seen photos, so we don't know what was in them) , or report the feeling that someone might have had designs on their 3 year old daughter, but Nuno is Portuguese and in his home town - so not reporting it makes no sense if he felt an immediate threat.

Unless it really wasn't a big issue in his mind until after Madeleine's alleged abduction. Maybe someone innocently (or not so innocently) was taking pictures , maybe the man was acting a bit suspiciously, but he didn't actually talk to the little girl, or try to grab her, so it wasn't a big deal. However, on reflection it turns into a major near miss adbuction of his daughter, AFTER he heard the news. A sort of "OMG that could have been my child - now that I think about it that man was taking photo's etc. "

If he was really concerned when the incident was happening - he would have confronted the guy, taken his photo, taken his car number plate and gone straight to the police.

It is a bit like a child's story. It is embellished with lots of extra stuff that makes him look better. He took a picture of the man , but it didn't come out. He wrote down the car number plate , but binned it ..........................

I really cannot tell if he was involved and deliberately lying, or just got swept along in the moment once the story broke.

As for the description of the man - it is a really generic description. Sit in a cafe on a holiday resort in early season and count the number of men that fit that description , I suspect there will be rather a lot.

by **Tony Bennett** 14.11.14 10:43

Carrying out further research on Wojcek Krokowski, I've unearthed this article by 'BlackWatch', author of the long-since disappeared 'Sargents Inn' blog.

In it - and remember this article was written some five years ago - he made this very sigificant observation:

The Germany-based Nuno Lourenco is the man who alleges to have seen a Polish man [Wojcek Krokowski] taking photos of his daughter on a beach in Sagres just days before Madeleine went missing. CCTV cameras in the beach bar owned by Murat's Uncle Ralph Eveleigh were volunteered to [the police] showing the Polish couple. It must rank as one of the most transparent attempts to have the investigation shifted elsewhere in the history of crime. The Polish couple were later traced to an apartment block built by Murat's father.
Nothing like keeping it in the family. Seems Amaral and his men were thrown from the very beginning. They didn't stand a chance...

My goodness, how much I agree with that!! - and was it 'one of the most transparent attempts to have an investigation shifted elsewhere in the history of crime'??

Bearing in mind my claim that Tannerman was based on Krokowski, so was Smithman, and so was Crecheman, well, I think so!

Blackwatch did a lot of research. It was mostly entirey factual, and he mined areas that most ignored, though he did make the odd mistake. His opinions were on occasions more debatable. But this one is a case of a nail being firmly and squarely banged on the head.

Here is his full article, which was placed on this forum in February 2014, I've bolded in red the highlights:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

QUOTE

Author Blackwatch (of 09/02/2010 @ 15:07:14, in Casa Pia, viewed 113 times)

The first name that appears on list of signatures in support of Goncalo Amaral's Petition addressed to the Court of Human Rights belongs to a woman whose department coordinated staff at the Casa Pia Orphange in Lisbon - the school that was at the centre of a Child Abuse Scandal last decade.

Paulo Reis and Joana Morais also appear in the first 20 of the 1500+ signatures.

Goncalo Amaral was of course the Portuguese Detective responsible for the first phase of the [Madeleine McCann] case and making Robert Murat and Gerry and Kate McCann arguidos.

Isabel Cristina da Silva Gonçalves - the first name on the petition - is the Vice-President of the Ministry of Labor. As a Senior Inspector, her department was responsible for coordinating staff at the Casa Pia orphanage (material and reports online suggest Isabel worked as Inspector during the 1999-2002 period).

Gonçalves's immediate superior would have been Inspector Geral, Paulo Morgado de Carvalho.

Another Casa Pia Pre-School teacher Ana Isabel Campanha Albertino - also appears on Amaral's petition. Her name appears next to Monica's on the list of Casa Pia teachers compiled for use by the Ministry of Labour.

The Secretary of State for the Ministry of Labor from 1999 to 2001 was Paulo Pedroso, who was responsible for the Casa Pia homes. Pedroso was suspected of 15 cases of sexual violence against minors, which allegedly took place between 1999 and 2000. His case was also subsequently dropped. In September 2008, a Portuguese court ordered the state to pay 100,000 euros ($140,000) to the ex-minister Paulo Pedroso, on the grounds that he was wrongly detained on paedophilia charges. At the time Paulo Pedroso was a member of the Socialist Party. Socialist leader at that time, António Guterres, a friend of Tony Blair (the British Prime Minister at the time Madeline went missing), promised, if necessary, to testify in Paulo Pedroso’s favour.

Socialist Party leader, Jose Socrates is currently the Prime Minister of Portugal. It was alleged by some British newspapers that Socrates had private conversations with Gordon Brown about the Madeleine case during an EU Summit in 2007.

Appearing second on the Petition list is a woman by the name of Sofia Schubeius Corte-Real LANDERSET

Sofia's sister Mónica Schubeius Côrte-Real de Landerset appears in the list of teachers who taught in Pre-School at the Casa Pia Orphanage (that they are sisters can be verified here) She appears elsewhere online selling a Fiat Seicento

Paulo Reis's Socialist youth, fighting with the Communist MPLA in Angola? Graca Morais's cosy relationship with Socialist Prime Minister Jose Socrates?

I think it's clear there's been determined and systematic lock-down on events surrounding Madeleine's disappearence - both at home and in Portugal - most likely from those who had most to lose. That doesn't mean to say they're behind it - just that they have most to lose.

Paulo Rebelo from Lisbon and Assistant Director of the PolÍcia Judiciária replaced Inspector Amaral. Rebelo also led the exhaustive Casa Pia investigation; an investigation in which evidence is alleged to have gone missing and enormous political pressure applied. In spite of Rebelo's efforts both cases brought by the PolÍcia Judiciária were largely rejected by prosecutors.

Interesting to see that the investigation's first witness, Nuno Manuel Lourenco de Jesus also makes an appearence in Amaral's petition. The Germany-based Nuno is the man who alleges to have seen a Polish man taking photos of his daughter on a beach in Sagres just days before Madeleine went missing. CCTV cameras in the beach bar owned by Murat's Uncle Ralph Eveleigh were volunteered to Polish showinbg the Polish couple. It must rank as one of the most transparent attempts to have the investigation shifted elsewhere in the history of crime. The Polish couple were later traced to an apartment block built by Murat's father.

Nothing like keeping it in the family. Seems Amaral and his men were thrown from the very beginning. They didn't stand a chance - and the Huelva trip obviously meant he was getting close.

Images below:

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by **Tony Bennett** 14.11.14 11:13

FH wrote:If this really happened as described, I could (at a stretch) imagine why a foreigner, who did not speak the language

As you are aware, Lourenco is a Portuguese-speaking man from Portugal who was staying with his Portuguese mother who still lives in Sagres

and was on holiday and heading home in a couple of days, might not go to the police and report someone may have been taking photos of their children

Not only did Lourenco claim that the man was seen by himself and another family taking pictures of FOUR childen under 10, he also says that Krokowski tried to kidnap his 3-year-old daughter

(he did not see photos, so we don't know what was in them), or report the feeling that someone might have had designs on their 3 year old daughter, but Nuno is Portuguese and in his home town - so not reporting it makes no sense if he felt an immediate threat.

Unless it really wasn't a big issue in his mind until after Madeleine's alleged abduction.

At 4pm one day you see a man taking photographs, quite close-up, of your children and other people's children. He then tries to kidnap your 3-year-old daughter. And you don't contact the police? To quote Wendy Murphy, 'I'm not buying it'.

Maybe someone innocently (or not so innocently) was taking pictures , maybe the man was acting a bit suspiciously, but he didn't actually talk to the little girl, or try to grab her, so it wasn't a big deal.

Lourenco said, in terms, that it was an attemped kidnap

However, on reflection it turns into a major near miss adbuction of his daughter, AFTER he heard the news. A sort of "OMG that could have been my child - now that I think about it that man was taking photos etc."

A very unlikely scenario IMO. And especially when we have the coincidence of his description of Krokowski matching what was said by Tanner the day before. Where did Tanner get her ideas about cream-coloured cloth trousers, classic shoes, dark hair etc.? And I wonder if Lourenco deliberately timed his call to the PJ when he knew that the Krokowski's plane for Berlin had ust taken off?

If he was really concerned when the incident was happening - he would have confronted the guy,

Yes

taken his photo,

He says he did - but says his finger got stuck over the lens of his moblie phone (??????) - so the photo didn't come out

taken his car number plate

He did. He says he wrote it down on a 'scrap of paper' (he had scraps of paper and a biro down with him at the beach) but says he then threw it away. He can't remember if he flung it on down on the ground or put it in a rubbish bin. This is all in his statement

and gone straight to the police.

It's what 999,999 people out of a million woud have done

It is a bit like a child's story. It is embellished with lots of extra stuff that makes him look better. He took a picture of the man, but it didn't come out. He wrote down the car number plate , but binned it....

I really cannot tell if he was involved and deliberately lying, or just got swept along in the moment once the story broke.

IMO there are enough 'red flags' in this story to make a couple of dozen bed-sheets out of them

As for the description of the man - it is a really generic description. Sit in a cafe on a holiday resort in early season and count the number of men that fit that description, I suspect there will be rather a lot.

Well...

1.   FACE

Tannerman:   Dark-skinned individual, couldn’t see his face
Sagres (Polish) man: Caucasian with Latin colouring…’of medium complexion’

2.   AGE

Tannerman: Aged 35-40
Sagres (Polish) man: Between 35-40 years of age

3.   HEIGHT

Tannerman:   About 1.7m tall (5’ 7”)
Sagres (Polish) man: Around 170 to 175 cm in height (5’ 7” - 5’ 9”)

4.   HAIR

Tannerman: Very dark, thick hair, longer at the back
Sagres (Polish) man: Curly, dark brown hair that ran down to the back of his neck, and in a pony tail

5.   JACKET

Tannerman: Wearing a dark ‘duffy’ sic type jacket (but not that thick), a sort of anorak, of the same material as his trousers
Sagres (Polish) man: He wore a cream-coloured cloth coat/jacket, of the same material as his trousers (but Ralph Eveleigh's beach bar staff member conveniently had a CCTV image of him also wearing a dark jacket)6. TROUSERS

6. TROUSERS

Tannerman: He was wearing linen type ‘chino style’ cloth trousers, beige to golden in colour, like ‘corticite’, of the same material as his jacket
Sagres (Polish) man: He wore cloth trousers, of the same material as his jacket

7. SHOES

Tannerman: His shoes were dark in colour, classic type
Sagres (Polish) man: His shoes, he thinks, were dark brown…and of the type that need to be shined or polished [i.e. leather]. In his book, Dr Goncalo Amaral says they were ‘shoes of a classic type’

8. BUILD

Tannerman: Slim physical appearance
Sagres (Polish) man: (no comment made)

9. 'NOT A TOURIST'

Tannerman: By the way he was dressed, he gave her the impression that he was not a tourist, because he was very "warmly dressed".
Sagres man: (no comment made, but Dr Goncalo Amaral writes in his book (Chapter 3): “The stranger did not look like a tourist”

by j.rob 14.11.14 20:15

I am interested in whether there is any relationship between Gaynor da Silva - the Sky TV translator and anchor in Portugal who also happened to know Robert Murat well as they had been at school together - and Nuno Lourenco de Jesus - who reported the suspicious couple who he claimed were photographing and even trying to kidnap one of his children - in Sagres?

On another thread on this forum (and also, I think, on a blog somewhere) there is the suggestion that Gaynor's (maiden name?) is Gaynor de Jesus. I don't know how common 'de Jesus' is as a surname. But it does strike me as quite a coincidence.

I am of the opinion that at least a part of this case is tied up in a media 'hoax' and Sky News seems to have been quite central to the case. (With one of the Tapas apparently phoning Sky New that Thursday night, according to Kate in her book, but not knowing the right number to call so Sky didn't get the message. Or some such twaddle.)

So we have bi-lingual Sky TV translator and anchor Gaynor da Silva (de Jesus) on the scene in Luz helping with translations and writing on the case. Who happens to know Robert Murat - as they were at school together - also bilingual, who is/was a police translator in Norfolk. And who also helps translate in this case. Both of them know the police well, according to a media interview where Gaynor was quoted. Then we have the possibility that Gaynor is related to the owner of the ship 'Naomi Corlett'. Owned by Corlett Lines, a company that Sergey Malinka allegedly worked for.

I wonder how many dots really do join up here?

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by sallypelt 14.11.14 21:22

j.rob wrote:I am interested in whether there is any relationship between Gaynor da Silva - the Sky TV translator and anchor in Portugal who also happened to know Robert Murat well as they had been at school together - and Nuno Lourenco de Jesus - who reported the suspicious couple who he claimed were photographing and even trying to kidnap one of his children - in Sagres?

On another thread on this forum (and also, I think, on a blog somewhere) there is the suggestion that Gaynor's (maiden name?) is Gaynor de Jesus. I don't know how common 'de Jesus' is as a surname. But it does strike me as quite a coincidence.

I am of the opinion that at least a part of this case is tied up in a media 'hoax' and Sky News seems to have been quite central to the case. (With one of the Tapas apparently phoning Sky New that Thursday night, according to Kate in her book, but not knowing the right number to call so Sky didn't get the message. Or some such twaddle.)

So we have bi-lingual Sky TV translator and anchor Gaynor da Silva (de Jesus) on the scene in Luz helping with translations and writing on the case. Who happens to know Robert Murat - as they were at school together - also bilingual, who is/was a police translator in Norfolk. And who also helps translate in this case. Both of them know the police well, according to a media interview where Gaynor was quoted. Then we have the possibility that Gaynor is related to the owner of the ship 'Naomi Corlett'. Owned by Corlett Lines, a company that Sergey Malinka allegedly worked for.

I wonder how many dots really do join up here?

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It appears that Gaynor de Jesus/da Silvo, is Gaynor Corlett, daughter of the ship owner:

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by sallypelt 15.11.14 14:28

Some information about Nuno L de Jesus

Date of interview 2007.05.05
Time: 16H30
Place: DIC Portimao
Officer responsible: Joao Carlos, Inspector
Profession: Domestic worker
Place of work: not given

Portuguese nationality but immigrated to Germany 14 years ago.
He married a German citizen in Denmark
.He has two children age 3 and 4
In Portugal from the 22nd of April until the 13^th May 2007h his
Stayed with his mother who lives in Sagres, and was accompanied by his two children and his wife who does not speak Portuguese. ( I find this rather odd as she’s been married to a Portuguese national for 14 years and at least, can't speak some Portuguese )
29^th April, he returned his rental car.
15:00 he was at Mareta beach in Sagres
Between 16:00 and 17:00, he noticed a male taking photographs of witness’s children
18H00/18H30, as it got a bit colder, they left the beach witness saw same individual passing the pastry shop
The witness managed to take a picture of the vehicle which he handed over to the police
The picture is recorded as having been taken at 18H08 on 29/04/2007.
Of the vehicle registration plate, he only remembered the partial plate numbers AV and 67.
On the fifth of May of 2007; DIC Portimao, NUNO MANUEL LOURENCO DE JESUS was shown various photographs of individuals with similar physical characteristics to that he described. After seeing the photographs, he did not recognise the individuals in the photographs

Some information about the rented car and the person who hired it.

Nuno L de Jesus handed a photograph of the car to the police, on 5^th May.

Renault Clio with vehicle registration 15-AV-67.
Car is owned by LUZCAR, 8600, Lagos.
Location: Largo das Portas Portugal, no. 10, Lagos
Vehicle was rented on the 28/04/07 at Faro airport by Polish citizen Wojciech Krokowski
W.K staying at Solimar apartments in Burgau staying in apartment 2C of Ed. Solimar, Ruda Ficticia, in Budens.
That apartment is managed by the company ATB, situated on the Main Street, Marretas building, Burgau, Vila do Bispo, whose director is Nuno Felisberto
That apartment belongs to Peter and Margaret O., who live in Windsor Grove, Cardiff, Wales
The vehicle was returned to the hire company on May 5th 2007 at Faro airport

I have copied and pasted the whole of W.K’s PJ statement, so it can be compared with the bullet points above:

External diligence carried out at the Beach Bar in Burgau with CCTV images of Polish couple

In order to determine the comings and goings of the couple of Polish nationality, who spent their holiday in Burgau, we approached several business establishments and on the basis of the description which we have of the couple, the owner of the "Beach Bar" advised us that it could be two of his clients. He seemed to recall that the couple had lunch and dinner two or three times, without remembering the exact days, but it would have been at the beginning of the week. He knows that they are Polish because they spoke about football on the day of the Liverpool/Chelsea match, saying that Liverpool's goalkeeper was Polish. The match in question took place on May 1st 2007. They also discussed Portuguese and Brazilian classical music.

The couple know several performers from those countries. They asked the owner of the bar where they could buy music of this genre. The owner directed them to the FNAC shop at the Algarve shopping centre or to the Chiado commercial centre. They said they would probably go to Lisbon the same day. To the restaurateur, the couple seemed quite atypical of holiday-makers to that place. They paid in cash, the lady was often irritated and they dressed more formally than would expect for a summer holiday at a beach. The owner, however, did not perceive any abnormal behaviour from the couple.

The investigation determines that the couple effectively went to FNAC at the Chiado centre on May 2nd 2007 where they bought two comedy musicals CDs, paid for with credit card no. ... ... ... ..., the same one used to pay the Luzcar rent-a-car company for the hire of the vehicle, registration...AV-67. We seized the surveillance video and we attach photos from the FNAC surveillance system in which we can see the Polish couple in question.

If you want more in-depth information, here is the link to the above statements:

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Question to self: If Nuno L was in Portugal from 22 April - 15 May, then WHY did he return his hired car on 29 April. This was the day after W.K hired his car. Is this just ANOTHER one of those coincidences that keeps popping up in this saga?

by j.rob 15.11.14 16:06

Add into the mix the fact that the media reported that the McCanns were in Sagres on 30th April, yet neither Kate or Gerry mentioned this. There is no record of the family having visited Sagres on Monday 30th April. In her book Kate gives an account of their routine at the club on Sunday, with the children going to the kids' clubs and so on.

She then writes: "the following days settled into a similar pattern - we'd have breakfast in the apartment, drop Madeleine, Sean and Amelie at their clubs and head to the courts......."

So WHY did the media claim that the McCanns were in Sagres on Monday 30th April?

Were they supposed to have been there? But didn't or couldn't go for some reason? Had at least a part of 'the disaster' already happened so they had to change plans?

Was Nuno's 'sighting' fabricated in order to plant the seed for the 'abduction' story?

Why was there such a monumental departure between what the media claimed the McCanns did on 30th April and what the McCanns and their friends claimed they did on 30th April?

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by sallypelt 15.11.14 16:16

j.rob wrote:Add into the mix the fact that the media reported that the McCanns were in Sagres on 30th April, yet neither Kate or Gerry mentioned this. There is no record of the family having visited Sagres on Monday 30th April. In her book Kate gives an account of their routine at the club on Sunday, with the children going to the kids' clubs and so on.

She then writes: "the following days settled into a similar pattern - we'd have breakfast in the apartment, drop Madeleine, Sean and Amelie at their clubs and head to the courts......."

So WHY did the media claim that the McCanns were in Sagres on Monday 30th April?

Were they supposed to have been there? But didn't or couldn't go for some reason? Had at least a part of 'the disaster' already happened so they had to change plans?

Was Nuno's 'sighting' fabricated in order to plant the seed for the 'abduction' story?

Why was there such a monumental departure between what the media claimed the McCanns did on 30th April and what the McCanns and their friends claimed they did on 30th April?

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There are a couple of interesting coincidences to all this "Sagres" saga; for example, at Faro Airport, there is a car hire firm, by the name of Manuel Lourenco Car Rental. Any connection to Nuno Manuel Lourenco De Jesus, I wonder. Or is the name "Manuel Lourenco" as common as the British name, John Smith, for example?

Is there a "perfectly innocent explanation" to all these coincidences.
Or was KROKOWSKI set up, part of a plot, or just a victim of a paranoid individual? It's anyone's guess!

by j.rob 17.11.14 17:24

sallypelt wrote:
j.rob wrote:Add into the mix the fact that the media reported that the McCanns were in Sagres on 30th April, yet neither Kate or Gerry mentioned this. There is no record of the family having visited Sagres on Monday 30th April. In her book Kate gives an account of their routine at the club on Sunday, with the children going to the kids' clubs and so on.

She then writes: "the following days settled into a similar pattern - we'd have breakfast in the apartment, drop Madeleine, Sean and Amelie at their clubs and head to the courts......."

So WHY did the media claim that the McCanns were in Sagres on Monday 30th April?

Were they supposed to have been there? But didn't or couldn't go for some reason? Had at least a part of 'the disaster' already happened so they had to change plans?

Was Nuno's 'sighting' fabricated in order to plant the seed for the 'abduction' story?

Why was there such a monumental departure between what the media claimed the McCanns did on 30th April and what the McCanns and their friends claimed they did on 30th April?

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There are a couple of interesting coincidences to all this "Sagres" saga; for example, at Faro Airport, there is a car hire firm, by the name of Manuel Lourenco Car Rental. Any connection to Nuno Manuel Lourenco De Jesus, I wonder. Or is the name "Manuel Lourenco" as common as the British name, John Smith, for example?

Is there a "perfectly innocent explanation" to all these coincidences.
Or was KROKOWSKI set up, part of a plot, or just a victim of a paranoid individual? It's anyone's guess!

If you subscribe to the theory that at least part of this 'mystery' was a planned media hoax (which I do believe to be the case) then the Sagres 'sighting' could be (yet another) fabrication. The fact that the media reported this story and claimed that the McCanns were in Sagres on Monday, when the McCanns themselves never mentioned this, is weird, though.

Surely, if the McCanns were in any way 'in' on the hoax, then TM would line up their stories with the media stories?

Why this massive discrepancy? What went wrong for this mistake to happen? Or was the journalism just so sloppy, and the desire to sow the seeds for an abduction just so strong, that pretty much any old rubbish was being written, however inaccurate it was?

But this is just ridiculously inaccurate.

Or did the media deliberately make a false claim? Maybe as a warning to the McCanns perhaps?

The newspaper story about the McCann's trip to Sagres appeared on 11th May. So there would have been plenty of time for the McCanns or someone from TM to have a quick chat with journalists, say, and update them that they had not, in fact, been in Sagres that Monday?

Maybe Madeleine was supposed to have been the victim of an attempted abduction on Monday, in order to sow the seed for the story that someone had been watching the family that week?

According to this report, Nuno's picture of the man that he took on his mobile is believed to have 'inspired Portuguese detectives to produce their infamous "egg with hair" photofit or a suspect with a blank face and side-parted hair. But I thought that was Jane Tanner's description of 'Tanner-man' which I do believe that the Portuguese only reluctantly released a few weeks after Madeleine disappeared I thought?

Also of note, Kate does not mention Nuno's Sagres sighting in her book, despite the prominence that this sighting was given in the press. And despite the fact that, according to this newspaper report, Nuno's sighting was the 'inspiration' for the "egg with hair" photofit?

Some of the dots really don't join up here. The script went badly wrong, imo. Very badly indeed.

I wonder who the two men and women from Ocean Club that were taken in for questioning still in their swim-suits were?

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by j.rob 17.11.14 17:34

I wonder if the Polish couple have anything to do with Kate telling the social worker Yvette Martin in the early days that 'a couple' had taken Madeline?

Was 'a couple' supposed to have taken Madeleine away (alive). But, after "the disaster" (Gerry's description of what had happened) 'the bastards' took her away instead (by this time either ill, dying, or dead, imo)?

A theory only.

by NickE 17.11.14 18:30

j.rob wrote:I wonder if the Polish couple have anything to do with Kate telling the social worker Yvette Martin in the early days that 'a couple' had taken Madeline?

Was 'a couple' supposed to have taken Madeleine away (alive). But, after "the disaster" (Gerry's description of what had happened) 'the bastards' took her away instead (by this time either ill, dying, or dead, imo)?

A theory only.

A very good theory
IMO
..

by **Tony Bennett** 17.11.14 21:43

j.rob wrote:I wonder if the Polish couple have anything to do with Kate telling the social worker Yvette Martin in the early days that 'a couple' had taken Madeleine?

Well, yes, if there had already been talk of Krokowski being the template for the descriptions of, first, Tannerman (Jane Tanner, 4 May), and then, Sagres Man (5 May).

Here's some more info:

A short biography of Wojciech Kamil Krokowski

with thanks to sallypelt for research

He was born in 1963. This would make him 44 in 2007 when Madeleine was reported missing. He is now 51.
He went to Portugal with a woman companion; the woman with him (partner or wife) was Anetta Malgorzata, who had convictions for:
* drugs offences
* drinks offences and for
* 'obtaining property by deception'.

Krokowski is a businessman:
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He is in partnership with Edward Krokowski who appears from other biographical details to be his father. The business was registered on 30 August 1994 at:
ul. Konduktorska 4 Konduktorska 4
00-775 Warszawa 00-775 Warsaw
Mazowieckie Gauteng

The business is given as ‘other wholesale’, possibly connected with timber or carpentry/joinery.
The PJ report gives Krokowski’s address as Lanciego Street, Warsaw, which is the same part of the city as the business

Edward Krokowski was born 1932, which makes him 82 if still alive.

Other links

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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now an early piece of research by 'Blackwatch'

Below is a piece written by 'Blackwatch' back in the early days, on his 'Sargents Inn' blog. He is rumoured to be Alan Sargent.
This is him at his best, probing and researching in depth the early puzzles surrounding Sagres, Burgau, Sagres Man= Krokowski, the identifcation of Murat by Tanner and so firth.
He has one or two minor details wrong, and some of his interpretations are off-beam - partly at least because we have better knowledge now.
I will just make one or two introductory comments, then I'll let 'Blackwatch' speak for himself:
1. He is correct in his understanding that 'Solimar' apartments and 'Sol e Mar' apartments are one and the same.
2. He is correct in saying that the hyperlink 'tags' on the internet if you searched for Sol e Mar apartments included, quote:
sexo
sex
adulto
adult
love
romance
lonely
girls
boys
3. He did not grasp that the reason for the PJ's breakneck speed search of Apartment C at the Solimar on Saturday 5 May was because of the information that came in suddnely that morning from Nuno Lourenco de Jesus. In rapid order, the following occurred:
* Lourenco 'phones PJ
* Lourenco gives description of Krokowski photographing and trying to kidnap children
* It seems almost a carbon copy of Tannerman
* Amaral's men trace Krokowksi and his car
* They find out he stayed at Apt C2 at Solimar/Sol e Mar
* They find out Krokowski's already on a plane to Berlin, the PJ alert Interpol, German and Polish Police
* Amaral orders full forensic search of Apt C2.
Much of the above is in Amaral's book, Chapter 3.
4. Some have observed an uncanny similarity between the ochre stucco on the exterior of the Solimar apartments and the ochre stucco on that very strange picture of Madeleine looking very unhappy wearing adult-applied make-up. I haven't got the tecchie skills to put either of those images up here.

Here goes with Blacksmith's long article:

The Mystery of Apartment C of the Hotel Sol e Mar in Burgau - Tanner and Murat DNA Matches

Author [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Blackwatch (of 24/01/2010 @ 22:00:26, in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Amaral/McCanns, viewed 1529 times)

On 5th May 2007 at 19:30, two days after Madeleine McCann went missing from Apartment 5A of the Ocean Club, a team from the Sector's Local Crime Laboratory of Forensic Science at the request of the Criminal Investigation Department of Portimão Criminal Police searched [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]apartment C of the Hotel Sol e Mar in Burgau (see image above). The apartment consisted of a kitchen, a living room, one bathroom and one double room. According to Mark Harrison's report for the National Police Improvements Agency (attached to the British Home Office), the methods and searches undertaken by the authorities were 'extensive and professional' and commensurate with a search and rescue operation. As a result of these searches of apartment c several hair samples were collected on the kitchen floor of the apartment, and packed in paper envelope, according to the instructions issued by the Division of Biology. Hair fibres were also collected on the floor of the hallway in the apartment and the master bedroom. Detailed examinations of a couch and the kitchen were also made, the latter yielding a blood specimen (see image below)

However, it wasn't until Inspector Amaral had been removed from the investigation and Paolo Rebelo took over the case that forensics were on the fibres were undertaken by Police Scientific Lab from the INML. In a request dated [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]31st October 2007 Rebelo writes:

"As it is necessary for the investigation of the abovementioned crime and being of a VERY URGENT nature, I request that the appropriate analyses be carried out as quickly as possible on the human blood samples collected by officers from the Local Crime Scene Unit (examination 200707356-CR IL of delivery guide 196/2007 ? CRL on 5th May 2007 in apartment c, 2? of aparthotel Sol e Mar in Burgau. These samples are in the Biology Area (200707143-B6). We require the determination of the DNA profile and a comparison with the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann and the DNA profiles sent to the Police Scientific Lab from the INML ... "

Whilst Inspector Amaral had made similar VERY URGENT requests on the blood samples found on the walls of Apartment 5A and from the wall of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Quinta dos Figos in Praia da Luz he had made no such 'urgent requests' for those found in Burgau, even though a process demand had been made to the Director of the Scientific Police Laboratory by Chief Inspector Tavares Alemeida as early as May 15th 2007 ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]05-Processo Vol V page 1196/05_VOLUME_Va_Page_1196)

The [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]results of the forensics tests performed on the hair fibres by the Forensics Services are perplexing to say the least. Results showed that the samples matched the haplotypes of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo n' 2007/000565/PT-B). The reports in question were served by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo in a fax dated October 2007. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. The samples found in the Solimar Apartments were identical [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.

Little more than one week later, after suspicions had been raised by reporters and concerns had been aroused by officers fielding a slew of probing questions about the case, Robert Murat was made a formal suspect in the case.

However, the results of the finds are not unproblematic. The forensic tests could only conclude that the fibres matching those of Tanner could indeed have come from any one of her maternal bloodline - including that of her 3 year old daughter who had accompanied her and her partner on the trip (or indeed more distant cousins or relatives). Much has been made of the physical resemblance of Tanner's daughter, Ella to Madeleine and the similarity in features and stature has led some internet sleuths to speculate that the actual target of the abductor may have been this child and not Madeleine (three of the Tapas children had been born within days of each other: Grace, Madeleine and Ella).

That Murat had spent a month in Exeter prior to returning to Portugal on May 1st appears to have only deepened speculation - Exeter being the home town of Tanner and O Brien. However no evidence has been unearthed that Murat knew either Tanner or O Brien prior to May 3rd and Police cleared Murat of any involvement in the case. Was Tanner's daughter Ella ever let out of parent's sight during the course of the holiday? Who knows. In her rogatory interviews Tanner admits to having [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]visited Lagos some years before (where Murat has several business interests) but stresses she had never stayed in Lagos. Where she did stay isn't recorded.

What led to the forensic examination of the Apartment of the Hotel Sol e Mar in Burgau, has thus far remained a mystery, but one explanation seems more plausible than all the rest.

According to both Amaral's book and the released Police Files, shortly after news of Madeleine's disappearance broke a man came forwarded alleging that he had confronted a man taking pictures of his four year old daughter on a beach in Sagres. The man's name was [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Nuno Manuel Lourenzo de Jesus. Whether or not he bore any kinship to Gaynor de Jesus (friend of Robert Murat and translator for SKY News) is not recorded in any of the diligences the Police made. Although he had been born in the nearby municipality of Aljezur to parents José de Jesus and Maria Inês Lourenço, he had lived some 14 years in Germany with his German wife, Birgit Erdmann and was visiting his mother in Sagres at the time of the alleged incident. Between 16H00 and 17H00, he cannot be more precise, he noticed a male individual holding a small silver-coloured camera who, in a disguised fashion, was taking pictures of his children. After several bungled attempts to photograph the man's face, he eventually took a shot of the car in which the man was driving. The statement he gave to Police was made on May 5th.

The car was eventually traced to a Polish couple. Anetta Malgorzata and Wojciech Krokowski. According to further diligences carried out by Interpol, it was learned that the couple arrived at Faro airport on April 28th 2007 on flight Al32744 from Berlin.

Confronted later with photographs of Malgorzata and Krokowski, Lourenco de Jesus identified the male as having been the man that day on the beach. The very clear CCTV images (see image below) had been captured at The Beach Bar restaurant in Burgau and volunteered by the owner of the Restaurant, Ralph Eveleigh - Uncle of Robert Murat and brother of Robert's mother Jennifer. The beach bar owner was also able to give a detailed witness account of a conversation he had with the couple that confirmed they were from Poland. Amazingly, the name of the witness and the man who volunteered the CCTV images was not recorded in the files by Police. The officer appears not to have taken his Anetta Malgorzata had convictions for drugs and drinks offences and for 'obtaining property by deception'name. Strangely, this is only occasion I've come across when a statement is recorded without the name of the witness being recorded also. And in the early stages at least, this was one of the most significant leads that they had. The names of other witnesses who had encountered the couple were duly recorded and formal statements made - but not this one. Make of this what you will.

Information collected by the German authorities from Air Berlin indicated that Wojciech and Krokowski had used the Berlin route because there were no direct cheap flights to or from Faro. Interpol also relayed the information that - more commonly known as fraud. Naturally, the Police were keen to know a little more about their activities in Burgau and during the course of their investigation they spoke to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Jorge Alberto Bandarra Rocha, owner of the Burgau restaurant, Refugio. Rocha tells the police of an unusual Polish couple who had reserved a table for dinner at the restaurant. He alleges that they had been brought to the restaurant as a result of picking up business cards that had been left in rooms at the Sol e Mar apartments. He goes on to allege that the Poles talked and mingled with some German diners:

"Almost immediately, the women began to photograph the interior of the restaurant without asking for permission. This situation captured the attention of the witness because his clients, tend to be of a 'posher class' and are more discreet in their conduct. This couples clothing was of a vulgar fashion ..."

Whilst it's tempting to draw a parallel between this story and the story of the Polish couple visiting Eef Hoos's [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Starlight Pet Crematorium, some have rightly questioned whether the entire incident provided a means of redirecting attention away from the real activities going on at the Sol e Mar apartments onto some believable Polish scapegoats. The Hoos anecdote does not, after all, appear in the actual files themselves and is likely to have been a story dreamt up by the press.

What's apparent though is that the search of the Sol e Mar apartments appears to have arisen in response to statements made by either Jorge Rocha of the Bargau restaurant at which the Polish couple dined or Lourenco de Jesus.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

above - the two Polish actors filmed at the Beach Bar - owned by Murat's Uncle.

Rocha only makes his formal Police statement about all this on May 6th and the Police forensic team had completed their search of the Sol e Mar apartments a day earlier on May 5th (although we might be able to conclude that Rocha had made similar informal statements some 24 hours earlier). It's also a mystery why Jorge Rocha says the couple dining at his restaurant arose as a result of business cards he left at the Sol e Mar apartments. According to other records in the file the Police record that the Polish couple are staying at the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Solimar apartments in Burgau - owned by Peter and Margaret Owen from Cardiff. Had the Poles arranged to meet someone at the Sol e Mar apartments and picked up the card during one of their possible visits or are the Sol e Mar and Solimar apartments one and the same property?

Clearly, it occurs to me now that the Sol e Mar and Solimar apartments are one and the same building. One has only to compare and contrast the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]respective photos of the properties to see they are a perfect match (see facade image below). Why the Police Files record them under such radically different spellings is not clear but may be explained by inadequate procedural efforts. However, a more deliberate attempt by someone within the department to confuse the issue cannot be ruled out.

The [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Solimar Apartments where the Polish couple stayed were designed and built by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Jacinto and Murat, the property development company in Lagos once co-owned by Murat's father and now under the directorship of his old partner and architect, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Joao Jacinto. Jacinto. Jacinto, however, claims not to have spoken to Robert in years. He had fallen out with his father some years before and the two had severed their partnership. The apartments are now managed by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Actividades Turisticas do Burgau (ATM Holidays). It's director is Nuno Felisberto - their website designed and maintained by the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Webgami - a design and property agency owned and staffed by Josa Barbosa in Burgau.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]According to his website, Joao Jacinto and his son Joao Pedro, like James Gorrod, are also enthusiastic and experienced yachtsman, regularly entering their boat, O Pedrosa - moored in Lagos Marina - in the Lagos-Palos regatta. Matthew Oldfield and Russell O Brien tell of their own sailing activities on the afternoon of May 3rd in their rogatory interviews, in a series of sessions arranged and coordinated by the Ocean Club. For all those amrchair sleuths poring over the details of a witness account of a man seen dragging a girl toward the Marina in Lagos the pursuit is inevitably pointless. Having an interest in sailing is shared by the vast majority of those visiting and those local to Lagos.

Had Robert ever been introduced to Jacinto's son, Joao Pedro? Not to the best of our knowledge, no. But we do know that Robert and Jacinto & Murat share a liberal interest in sex, Jacinto & Murat promoting the fact in the keywords of their website. Nothing wrong with that though. Maybe the company were looking to persuade broadminded adults to book broadminded stays at the apartments. Everyone needs a room to rent at sometime or other. Priests. Even prostitutes.

Whatever the case, given that the Sagres incident was itself only reported on May 5th (that's the day de Jesus gave his statement) it seems remarkable that the Police were able to respond within hours with a search warrant and a team to search the building (the search of the Sol e Mar apartments was conducted on the evening of May 5th).

Were the Poles a genuine lead or a plausible cover story for undertaking a search of the Sol e Mar Apartments or at the very least an attempt by parties either within or without the Police to implicate Tanner and Murat?

What may or may not be significant is that Jane Tanner did not take part in the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]confrontation organised by the Police between Murat and the Tapas party. O Brien was there. Rachel Oldfield was there. Fiona Payne was there - but Tanner was absent. As was Matthew Oldfield and David Payne.

Will Burgau yield any further clues? Who knows. It's not the first time either the village or German Nationals are mentioned in the files. The Murat family used to have a home in the district, Murat's father had another business project in the district called [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Burgau Investimentos Turisticos Lda (with an unspecified Englishman) and a search of Murat's cousin, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Sally Eveleigh's Salsalito guest house was also undertaken by Police. And then we have another German man - 69 year old [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Karl Kleine Brocknoff disappearing and then being found dead in mysterious circumstances in June 2007 - not far from where any of this took place.

Russell O Brien even admits to receiving a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]text message from a friend in Germany just as they arrived at the Ocean Club on April 28th (the Polish couple flew from Berlin Airport to Faro on April 28th, arriving at the Solimar apartments on the same day) and there's even a record of Robert Murat making to trips to Germany with his Remax friend, Rui Cristino for the sale of a car. Sagres photographer Nuno de Jesus and his German wife, Birgit Erdmann - born locally - but living in Germany at the time of the event. The list goes on ...

If it transpires that the empty property near the Almadena Windmill and Trig Point in Praia da Luz which was destroyed within weeks of Madeleine's disappearence (and mentioned in Mark Harrison's search report for the NPIA) had links to any of the property managers here, then the possibility of solving the mystery is likely to remain buried within its rubble (which was taken away incidentally).

But before leaping to any conclusions it might be worth remembering that there's plenty more herrings in the sea. Maybe former head of The Division Against Organized Crime and Drug Trafficking Inspector Amaral could throw some light upon the case. Or something not so bright.

More reading:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Burgau Apartment DNA Explained: Hapless Guide to Haplotypes

other images of the Hotel Sol e Mar:

by j.rob 17.11.14 22:49

Thank you Tony. All very interesting.

-----------

With regard to my comment in the post up-thread that the media reported that the McCanns went to Sagres on the Monday, when the McCanns never mentioned it, another possibility of course is that the McCanns DID go to Sagres that day. But chose, for whatever reason, not to mention it. (Kate is remarkably silent about Monday in her book, merely mentioning that the apartment was cleaned on Monday. And writing that she made her first 'foray' to Baptista with Jane that evening to stock up on essentials as the next day was a public holiday.)

But if that was the case then it is still of interest that the media chose to report this. While the McCanns didn't. Not singing from the same hymn sheet? By accident or on purpose?

I have to say, having been on Mark Warner holidays myself with my family, the very last thing you need to do is 'stock up' at a supermarket. A very generous breakfast is included in the price as well as a generous three course evening meal with wine included (at least it was on the holidays I have been on with MW.) Why on earth you would go on a half board holiday as a family with three young children and then CHOOSE to have the bother, fuss and mess of preparing both breakfast and lunch every day in your own apartment is really beyond me?
Even children as young as two and a bit (as the twins were) enjoy 'the breakfast spread' at a hotel and being with other children and Madeleine certainly would have been longing to share meals with her friends. I don't buy the 'long walk' excuse. And even if they didn't ALL want to go every morning, you would still think that SOME of them would go.

Another red flag, imo.

by MyBrainHurts 18.11.14 8:11

j.rob wrote:Thank you Tony. All very interesting.

-----------

(Kate is remarkably silent about Monday in her book, merely mentioning that the apartment was cleaned on Monday. And writing that she made her first 'foray' to Baptista with Jane that evening to stock up on essentials as the next day was a public holiday.)
.

So the McC's arrived on Saturday and she mentioned the apartment was cleaned on the Monday.
Are apartments only cleaned once during the weeks' stay? Surely the apartment would be cleaned before they arrived.
And aren't they then cleaned every day, even if only briefly - bins/bedding/towels etc?
Then the McCann's went to the supermarket to stock up on essentials. I wonder if some of those essentials were cleaning products? Maybe it took several days to 'forensically cleanse the apt of Madeleine's DNA before they raised the fake alarm.
People here think Madeleine met her demise before Monday so maybe the cleaning of the apt on Monday is significant.
Were the curtains washed aswell on the Monday?
Didn't they also report a fault with the washing machine?
IMO

by NickE 18.11.14 8:31

Sorry Tony if this have been mention Before in this thread.
The Polish couple's rental car was a Grey,small Renault Clio

Maria De Silva.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
*snip*
. Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58?she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her friend's apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment
..

by j.rob 18.11.14 14:41

MyBrainHurts wrote:
j.rob wrote:Thank you Tony. All very interesting.

-----------

(Kate is remarkably silent about Monday in her book, merely mentioning that the apartment was cleaned on Monday. And writing that she made her first 'foray' to Baptista with Jane that evening to stock up on essentials as the next day was a public holiday.)
.

So the McC's arrived on Saturday and she mentioned the apartment was cleaned on the Monday.
Are apartments only cleaned once during the weeks' stay? Surely the apartment would be cleaned before they arrived.
And aren't they then cleaned every day, even if only briefly - bins/bedding/towels etc?
Then the McCann's went to the supermarket to stock up on essentials. I wonder if some of those essentials were cleaning products? Maybe it took several days to 'forensically cleanse the apt of Madeleine's DNA before they raised the fake alarm.
People here think Madeleine met her demise before Monday so maybe the cleaning of the apt on Monday is significant.
Were the curtains washed aswell on the Monday?
Didn't they also report a fault with the washing machine?
IMO

According to Kate in her book the apartment was cleaned on Monday and Wednesday. And on Tuesday maintenance men came to look at the washing machine which Kate could not operate. And also to look at the window shutter mechanism in their bedroom which Gerry had apparently managed to break.

I would imagine that cleaning, washing of clothes and other items from the apartment and also the bedroom window shutters were all sensitive subject areas for the McCanns that week.

And I find the use of the word 'essentials' to describe what Kate and Jane were buying from Baptist on Monday evening of interest. Perhaps they were very essential products indeed. As you say - cleaning products perhaps.

Bearing in mind that Kate writes that Gerry went to Baptista the day before - on Sunday morning - 'to get in a few bits and piecesfor lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning.'

So, given that Gerry only the day before had already done a supermarket shop for food for breakfast and lunch, how 'essential' were these 'essentials' that the very next day Kate had to visit the supermarket again? Would have been interesting to see the till receipts.

Given that, imo, the McCanns will do absolutely anything to avoid having to pay for things out of their own pockets, I cannot believe that they would forgo the ample breakfast (apart from on Sunday apparently) each morning for all FIVE of them unless there was a very pressing reason indeed why they could not go. In my view neither Kate or Gerry liked spending money on their children. There must have been an urgent reason why they did not go to breakfast at the Millennium and why they chose to have lunch every day in their apartment, or so they say. I think they wanted to keep the children away from other guests and they did not want to be seen as a family. So that people would be confused about what had happened that week.

by j.rob 18.11.14 14:48

NickE wrote:Sorry Tony if this have been mention Before in this thread.
The Polish couple's rental car was a Grey,small Renault Clio

Maria De Silva.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
*snip*
. Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58?she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
. They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6 where her friend's apartment was located;
. She declares that the night was good with a breeze, and that it was dark;
. After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns. She states that she saw no movement of people, and that in the immediate areas of the blocks she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment
..

I too remembered that another eye-witness mentioned a small grey car but could not find the link. to Maria de Silva's rogatory so well done. I think there is also another eye-witness who was driving along the road outside the apartment that evening and a small grey car (Renault Clio? not sure if they mention the make) was heading towards her car at speed, to the extent that she had to swerve to avoid it? Maybe someone else remembers who said this?

Then we have Jez Wilkins who stated that he thinks he saw Jane Tanner outside the McCann's apartment at around 8.3pm (in a purple top?) And in one of his police statements at least he mentions seeing a couple, I think, which includes the blonde 'rasta-man' (and a woman in a purple top?) walking towards OC reception?

by **Tony Bennett** 18.11.14 19:27

j.rob

According to Kate in her book the apartment was cleaned on Monday and Wednesday. And on Tuesday maintenance men came to look at the washing machine which Kate could not operate.

REPLY: They arrived on Saturday late afternoon. Presumably by Tuesday morning, or even before, Dr Kate McCann wanted to wash some things. That does seem strange.

And also to look at the window shutter mechanism in their bedroom which Gerry had apparently managed to break.
I would imagine that cleaning, washing of clothes and other items from the apartment and also the bedroom window shutters were all sensitive subject areas for the McCanns that week.

And I find the use of the word 'essentials' to describe what Kate and Jane were buying from Baptista on Monday evening of interest. Perhaps they were very essential products indeed…Bearing in mind that Kate writes that Gerry went to Baptista the day before - on Sunday morning - 'to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning.' Would have been interesting to see the till receipts. There must have been an urgent reason why they did not go to breakfast at the Millennium and why they chose to have lunch every day in their apartment, or so they say. I think they wanted to keep the children away from other guests and they did not want to be seen as a family. So that people would be confused about what had happened that week.

REPLY: Given that they were I think on ‘half board’ that week, it is difficult to know what ‘essentials’ they required, nor is there a convincing reason why they suddenly decided it was too far to go to the Millennium for breakfast.

Would have been interesting to see the till receipts.
There must have been an urgent reason why they did not go to breakfast at the Millennium and why they chose to have lunch every day in their apartment, or so they say. I think they wanted to keep the children away from other guests and they did not want to be seen as a family. So that people would be confused about what had happened that week.

NickE:

Before in this thread, the Polish couple's rental car was a grey, small Renault Clio.

[see Maria De Silva statement:]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Declares further that on the night 03-05-07, she left the apartment at around 21H58? She remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge;
They left the building and the deponent and her boyfriend took the Opel Frontera, previously indicated, which was parked out front of the apartment, in the private parking area of Block 6…

After leaving Block 6, they turned right and after left, passing in front of the block occupied by the McCanns…she saw no vehicle with the exception of a small car, that appeared to her grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment

REPLY: It is said that Krokowski hired his car from 28 April to 5 May, presumably using it early on 5 May to return to Faro airport from his holiday pad at the Sol e Mar apartments in Burgau. On the face of it, it seems most unlikely that that same car would be stationed right outside the McCanns’ apartment that night.

I too remembered that another eye-witness mentioned a small grey car… also another eye-witness who was driving along the road outside the apartment that evening and a small grey car (Renault Clio? - not sure if they mention the make) was heading towards her car at speed, to the extent that she had to swerve to avoid it? Maybe someone else remembers who said this?

REPLY: I am not aware of these statements

Then we have Jez Wilkins who stated that he thinks he saw Jane Tanner outside the McCann's apartment at around 8.03pm (in a purple top?)

REPLY: IMO Jez Wilkins’ claim about taking out a young baby late at night to get the baby to sleep and also calling in at the toilet to relieve himself didn’t have the ‘ring of truth’ about it

And in one of his police statements at least he mentions seeing a couple, I think, which includes the blonde 'rasta-man' (and a woman in a purple top?) walking towards OC reception?

REPLY: Not connected to the Krokowskis I think

j.rob

(Kate is remarkably silent about Monday in her book, merely mentioning that the apartment was cleaned on Monday. And writing that she made her first 'foray' to Baptista with Jane that evening to stock up on essentials as the next day was a public holiday)

My Brain hurts

So the McC's arrived on Saturday and she mentioned the apartment was cleaned on the Monday. Are apartments only cleaned once during the weeks' stay? Surely the apartment would be cleaned before they arrived.
And aren't they then cleaned every day, even if only briefly - bins/bedding/towels etc?

REPLY: Not sure what the procedure was at Mark Warners/Ocean Club

Were the curtains washed as well on the Monday?

REPLY: See above

Didn't they also report a fault with the washing machine?

REPLY: See above

by Monty Heck 18.11.14 20:15

j.rob wrote:
MyBrainHurts wrote:
j.rob wrote:Thank you Tony. All very interesting.

-----------

(Kate is remarkably silent about Monday in her book, merely mentioning that the apartment was cleaned on Monday. And writing that she made her first 'foray' to Baptista with Jane that evening to stock up on essentials as the next day was a public holiday.)
.

So the McC's arrived on Saturday and she mentioned the apartment was cleaned on the Monday.
Are apartments only cleaned once during the weeks' stay? Surely the apartment would be cleaned before they arrived.
And aren't they then cleaned every day, even if only briefly - bins/bedding/towels etc?
Then the McCann's went to the supermarket to stock up on essentials. I wonder if some of those essentials were cleaning products? Maybe it took several days to 'forensically cleanse the apt of Madeleine's DNA before they raised the fake alarm.
People here think Madeleine met her demise before Monday so maybe the cleaning of the apt on Monday is significant.
Were the curtains washed aswell on the Monday?
Didn't they also report a fault with the washing machine?
IMO

According to Kate in her book the apartment was cleaned on Monday and Wednesday. And on Tuesday maintenance men came to look at the washing machine which Kate could not operate. And also to look at the window shutter mechanism in their bedroom which Gerry had apparently managed to break.

I would imagine that cleaning, washing of clothes and other items from the apartment and also the bedroom window shutters were all sensitive subject areas for the McCanns that week.

And I find the use of the word 'essentials' to describe what Kate and Jane were buying from Baptist on Monday evening of interest. Perhaps they were very essential products indeed. As you say - cleaning products perhaps.

Bearing in mind that Kate writes that Gerry went to Baptista the day before - on Sunday morning - 'to get in a few bits and piecesfor lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning.'

So, given that Gerry only the day before had already done a supermarket shop for food for breakfast and lunch, how 'essential' were these 'essentials' that the very next day Kate had to visit the supermarket again? Would have been interesting to see the till receipts.

Given that, imo, the McCanns will do absolutely anything to avoid having to pay for things out of their own pockets, I cannot believe that they would forgo the ample breakfast (apart from on Sunday apparently) each morning for all FIVE of them unless there was a very pressing reason indeed why they could not go. In my view neither Kate or Gerry liked spending money on their children. There must have been an urgent reason why they did not go to breakfast at the Millennium and why they chose to have lunch every day in their apartment, or so they say. I think they wanted to keep the children away from other guests and they did not want to be seen as a family. So that people would be confused about what had happened that week.

Re the need for the supermarket evening foray, Baptista doesn't tend to open very late in the evenings so it would be interesting to know whether a more exact timeframe has been given for this? Also, unlike other supermarkets in the village, Baptista always seemed to be open each day, including Sundays and public holidays, although it may close earlier on those days.

Foregoing five pre-paid breakfasts per day in favour of paying (twice over) for food, with the added inconvenience of shopping, preparation and clearing up afterwards for a family of five, once more per day than was actually necessary does appear a rather strange holiday choice. Even without a buggy, for fit and athletic parents, carrying a small tot apiece on a pleasant 10 minute walk would be no hardship. Also odd is that M, an active, lively child capable of striding out independently still had to be taken to kids club not far from the Millennium in any case, so it seems like a lot of extra work and to-ing and fro-ing for little gain.

by j.rob 19.11.14 12:55

Foregoing five pre-paid breakfasts per day in favour of paying (twice over) for food, with the added inconvenience of shopping, preparation and clearing up afterwards for a family of five, once more per day than was actually necessary does appear a rather strange holiday choice. Even without a buggy, for fit and athletic parents, carrying a small tot apiece on a pleasant 10 minute walk would be no hardship. Also odd is that M, an active, lively child capable of striding out independently still had to be taken to kids club not far from the Millennium in any case, so it seems like a lot of extra work and to-ing and fro-ing for little gain.

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Agreed. It makes no sense at all. This was supposed to be 'a holiday' (even if Gerry did say on the airport bus that he was not there to enjoy himself! What was he there for, I wonder?)

Children of that age are up early and are raring to go by 7.30am or 8am. The house very quickly becomes incredibly chaotic if the children are not up and out somewhere in the morning. In fact, everything and everyone can get quite 'stir-crazy'. My recollection of children of two and a bit and nearly four is that they are on the go 12 hours a day. It's non-stop activity from what I can remember. So you would think they would all be dying to get to the Millennium for breakfast and allow the children to create havoc there rather than going stir-crazy in a cramped apartment.

But of course there was a whole other agenda going on that week. Or quite a few different agendas, imo. One of which I still suspect was a pre-planned 'abduction hoax' which became bodged.

But that still does not account for all those high profile guests and the very high level of protection offered to Team McCann from the very beginning. Or maybe it does partly?

by violet6000 20.11.14 3:10

This is a very interesting topic and one that I don't know a great deal about. However, to me the man's description of a suspicious man taking photographs of his daughter sounds legit. I have been in a similar situation--it was just impossible to know for sure if the man was truly doing what I thought he was doing. We were at a very nice resort at the time. I removed my child from the situation rather than report anything just b/c it is hard to know what people are photographing if you don't look at their film/shots.

I think the link of this suspicious man to the Burgau apt. strengthens the probability that it really happened. The question is then, why did it happen & what does it have to do with MBM?

Is it possible that the suspicious couple were looking for a MBM lookalike on Murat's instruction? I am not sure how it would all fit together, but it seems to fit the timeline with a death occurring early in the week. I wonder if either a lookalike was being sought to somehow be used as a sub for MBM in the creche before they decided to use the other M, if they did that--not sure how that would all work out--or even as a sub for a darker purpose--this is speculation, of course, and very unpleasant speculation, but I think I wrote on my other post about some odd similarities with the Jon Benet-R case--I find it hard to understand how educated, intelligent?, etc folks could get involved in extreme dark occult stuff, but ???

Anyway, just some thoughts I thought I would share.

All my opinion only and no offense or harm intended to anyone.

by **Tony Bennett** 20.11.14 9:12

violet6000 wrote:This is a very interesting topic and one that I don't know a great deal about. However, to me the man's description of a suspicious man taking photographs of his daughter sounds legit. I have been in a similar situation - it was just impossible to know for sure if the man was truly doing what I thought he was doing. We were at a very nice resort at the time. I removed my child from the situation rather than report anything just b/c it is hard to know what people are photographing if you don't look at their film/shots.

REPLY: But as you're new to the topic, you may have missed these points:

* Lourenco saw the man taking photographs not only of his children but another family's children
* He says discusssed this with the other couple, who had boys aged 9 & 5
* He says he eyeballed Krokowski 'aggressively until he departed
* AFTER that, two hours later, there was - he says - ANOTHER incident when Krokowski attempted to snatch his daughter
* He managed to follow the man and get his car registration number, writing it down on a 'piece of paper'
* He says he photographed Krokowski on his mobile 'phone but the picture didn't come out because 'his finger was on the lens'
* He says he threw away the car registration number soon after taking it, but can't remember if 'I threw it in a rubbish bin or flung it on the floor'
* He didn't report any of this until the morning of 5 May when Krokowski and his partner were already on the plane to Berlin
* He only reported it because on 4 May his wife said 'That might be the bloke that abducted Madeleine'.

For these and other reasons I suggest we need to consider the possibility that these 'sightings' were a total fabrication

I think the link of this suspicious man to the Burgau apt. strengthens the probability that it really happened.

REPLY: Why?

The question is then, why did it happen & what does it have to do with MBM?

Is it possible that the suspicious couple were looking for a MBM lookalike on Murat's instruction?

REPLY: No because I think Lourenco fabircated the whole thing

I am not sure how it would all fit together, but it seems to fit the timeline with a death occurring early in the week. I wonder if either a lookalike was being sought to somehow be used as a sub for MBM in the creche before they decided to use the other M, if they did that - not sure how that would all work out--or even as a sub for a darker purpose - this is speculation, of course, and very unpleasant speculation, but I think I wrote on my other post about some odd similarities with the Jon Benet-R case - I find it hard to understand how educated, intelligent?, etc folks could get involved in extreme dark occult stuff, but ???

Anyway, just some thoughts I thought I would share.

All my opinion only and no offense or harm intended to anyone.

by Zelina 20.11.14 9:27

Is there a place where I can read a summary about the theory of a child substitution in the creche?
I've seen it mentioned many times before both here and on other sites but I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

by **Tony Bennett** 20.11.14 10:44

Zelina wrote:Is there a place where I can read a summary about the theory of a child substitution in the creche?
I've seen it mentioned many times before both here and on other sites but I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

Try 'kikoratton' on Twitter - and read through his thousands of tweets on the subject.

I don't understand the reasoning behind it either

by Guest 20.11.14 10:49

Zelina wrote:Is there a place where I can read a summary about the theory of a child substitution in the creche?
I've seen it mentioned many times before both here and on other sites but I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

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Also go to Search (top right) and look for Creche Records and Creche Enquiry.