Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: British Police / Government Interference :: 'Operation Grange' set up by ex-Prime Minister David Cameron
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Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by NickE 05.09.14 22:06
[size=31]Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?[/size]
Madeleine McCann vanished without trace in May 2007 Photo: P
In the seven years since Madeleine McCann went missing from a holiday apartment in Portugal, myriad theories about what happened to her have taken root, but only one fact remains uncontested: that she was reported missing at 10.14pm on the evening of Thursday, May 3, 2007.
It was at that point, when police were called, that the clock started ticking on the biggest missing persons investigation for decades, a search which remains very much active to this day.
Facts, the hard currency of any police investigation, have proved almost uniquely elusive; every sighting, every timing and every witness statement has been disputed in the years that have elapsed since.
Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry McCann quickly came under suspicion by Portuguese police, a development that the couple are certain meant vital clues were missed in the first hours and days after Madeleine’s disappearance.
Every possible theory has been explored since then: that Madeleine was abducted by a paedophile; that she was killed during a bungled burglary and her body dumped; that she was abducted by traffickers and sold to a childless couple; that she wandered out of the apartment and died in a tragic accident, and many more besides.
To date, however, not one shred of proof of what happened to Madeleine has been unearthed. The question of what happened to Madeleine would become not only a personal tragedy for the McCann family, but a national obsession in the UK and in Portugal.
Madeleine, of Rothley, Leicestershire, was on the penultimate day of her family holiday on the day she vanished. She had spent part of the day playing by the swimming pool in the Ocean Club resort, where the last known picture of her was taken at 2.29pm.
Reports of when she was last seen alive by independent witnesses vary, but she was still alive at around 6pm, when she and her parents went into their apartment at 5A Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, where Madeleine and her two-year-old twin brother and sister were readied for bed.
The McCanns told police they put the children to bed at around 7pm, and that all three were asleep by 8.30pm, when they went for dinner at a tapas bar 50 yards across the pool from their apartment. There they met seven friends with whom they were on holiday.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Kate and Gerry McCann
The McCanns say checks were made on their children every half-hour, sometimes by other members of the party, comprising Dr Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner, from Exeter, Dr Matthew and Rachael Oldfield, from London, and David and Fiona Payne, from Leicester, together with Mrs Payne's mother Dianne Webster. Mrs Webster, however, reportedly told police that each couple was responsible for checking their own children.
Gerry McCann went to the apartment at 9.05pm, when all the children were sleeping soundly and Madeleine was still in her bed, he says.
The police in Portugal, however, have never accepted the McCanns’ evidence as undisputed. They initially regarded the McCanns as suspects, and believed the McCanns could have killed Madeleine any time after the last independent sighting of her at 6pm.
Dr Matthew Oldfield went into apartment 5A at 9.30pm, and noticed that Madeleine’s room seemed lighter than the others, as if the shutters had been partially opened. He could not be certain whether Madeleine was there.
Kate McCann was next to check on the children, at 10pm. She ran back to the restaurant moments later, saying Madeleine was missing. The McCanns and their friends made a quick search of the resort, but after finding no sign of Madeleine the police were called at 10.14pm.
The McCanns told police they had put Madeleine to bed with her pink comfort blanket and favourite soft toy, Cuddle Cat, and was wearing short-sleeved Marks & Spencer Eeyore pyjamas.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]The bed where Madeleine had been sleeping when she went missing
Crucially, however, the apartment was not initially treated as a crime scene, meaning around 20 people went in and out before it was sealed off, contaminating potential evidence. Roadblocks were not put in place until 10am the next day, border guards were not informed for hours and Interpol did not put out a global missing persons alert for five days.
It meant that the most crucial time of any missing persons investigation – the first 24 hours – were largely squandered, and police have been trying to catch up ever since. Yet potentially key sightings and artists’ impressions of suspects were kept from the public for years.
Mary and Martin Smith, from Ireland, told police they saw a man carrying a child matching Madeleine’s description at around 10pm on Rua da Escola Primaria, 500 yards from the McCanns’ apartment. He was heading towards the beach, did not look like a tourist and did not seem comfortable carrying the child, they said.
Their evidence was compelling, but it was only in October 2013 that two e-fit images of the man, compiled by police from descriptions given by Mr and Mrs Smith, were released by Scotland Yard to coincide with a BBC Crimewatch reconstruction of Madeleine’s disappearance. He remains a suspect.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Two police e-fits of the man described by the Smiths
There were also blind alleys. Jane Tanner, one of the tapas diners, told police that when she left the restaurant at 9.15pm to check on her own daughter, she saw a man carrying a small child, wearing pink pyjamas, in his arms.
For years afterwards, the mystery man would be a key suspect, if not the prime suspect, but in October 2013 the Metropolitan Police announced that a British holidaymaker who had been taking his daughter back to his apartment after picking her up from an evening crèche, had been identified as the man Miss Tanner had seen and ruled out of the inquiry.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Madeleine and, right, the man seen by Jane Tanner. He has since been traced and ruled out
The first person to become an “arguido”, or official suspect, was Robert Murat, a local property consultant, whose home was searched 12 days after the disappearance. He was formally cleared of suspicion in 2008 and won £600,000 in libel damages from 11 British newspapers.
The Portuguese Police, however, were suspicious of the McCanns from the beginning, partly due to a clash of cultures. They could not believe that parents would leave their children unattended, and did not approve of the McCanns’ use of the media to raise the profile of the case, in a country where secrecy is the hallmark of all police investigations.
The arrival of two British sniffer dogs in Portugal in July 2007 only hardened that belief. One dog was trained to sniff out traces of human blood, the other was trained to sniff out the scent of dead bodies. Both dogs were taken to several locations connected to the investigation, and gave alerts only in apartment 5A. Later, the cadaver dog gave an alert inside a Renault car, hired by the McCanns 24 days after Madeleine went missing.
DNA tests on samples taken from the car proved inconclusive, but the Portuguese police wrongly told journalists they were a “100 per cent match” for Madeleine.
The Portuguese police came up with the theory that Madeleine had been killed by her parents by accident, possibly by being given an overdose of a sedative to make her sleep, that they had hidden the body, faked her abduction and then used the hire car weeks later to move her body to a burial location.
In early September 2007, according to Kate McCann, she was told by the Portuguese police that if she admitted that Madeleine had died in the apartment and she had hidden her body she might only serve a two-year sentence and Gerry McCann would not be charged at all. On September 7 the couple were both made arguidos.
Goncalo Amaral, the chief inspector who had been in charge of the case, resigned in 2008 to write a book alleging that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment and the McCanns had faked the abduction. The McCanns sued him for libel, with the court expected to make its decision late in 2014.
In July 2008 the Portuguese attorney general announced that the McCanns were no longer suspects and the investigation was closed. The McCanns hired private investigators to carry on the search, but it was not until May 2011 that Theresa May, the Home Secretary, announced that Scotland Yard would review the evidence in the case, which had until then been the responsibility of Leicestershire Police, working with the Portuguese authorities.
In July 2013 Operation Grange, the review of the available evidence, became a full-blown criminal inquiry, and Scotland Yard said it was concentrating on a “criminal act by a stranger”.
The Yard announced it was looking into possible links between Madeleine’s disappearance and bogus charity collectors who were knocking on doors in Praia da Luz at the time. Between 3.30pm and 5.30pm on the day in question there were four separate sightings of men who said they were collecting money for an orphanage. British detectives believe men whose photofits they released in 2013 may have been engaged in reconnaissance for a pre-planned abduction or for burglaries, in keeping with the theory that Madeleine may have been killed by a burglar she disturbed.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Is this how Madeleine would look today?
Scotland Yard also said in 2013 it was eager to trace a blond-haired man who had been seen loitering in the area on April 30 and May 2, looking at apartment 1A. He was described as “ugly” with a spotty complexion and a large nose. Two blond-haired men were seen on the balcony of the empty apartment 5C, two doors from 5A, at 2.30pm on the day of the disappearance. Blond men were seen again near 5A at 4pm and 6pm that day, and at 11pm that night. Following the appeal on Crimewatch, the Portuguese police re-opened their own investigation.
Scotland Yard officers travelled to Portugal in 2014 to interview four suspects and carried out searches of the area around the apartment using ground-penetrating radar. One of the men who was interview has since been eliminated from the inquiry, but the other three men remain arguidos.
The British officers questioned them on suspicion of being part of a burglary gang that panicked after killing Madeleine during a bungled break-in. They all protested their innocence and were released without charge.
Another suspect was Euclides Monteiro, a convicted burglar with a drug habit, who had been sacked from the Ocean Club in 2006. Mobile phone tracking showed he had been in the area on the night of the disappearance, and police believe he may have been burgling apartments there to fund his drug addiction. He died in a tractor accident in 2009.
In March 2014 Scotland Yard announced that a lone intruder sexually assaulted five girls aged between seven and 10 in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006. The man, who has never been caught, was said to have a “very, very unhealthy interest” in young white girls.
The four incidents, one of which involved two girls, were among 12 in which men had entered holiday accommodation in the area, including two incidents in Praia da Luz. The force also said it was looking at 38 “people of interest” and were researching the backgrounds of 530 known sex offenders, including 59 regarded as high interest.
Kate and Gerry McCann remain convinced their daughter is alive and that they will one day be reunited. The hunt to find her continues.
Ever since she disappeared in May 2007, the image of Madeleine McCann has remained burned on our national consciousness. How close are police to finding out the truth?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Madeleine McCann vanished without trace in May 2007 Photo: P
In the seven years since Madeleine McCann went missing from a holiday apartment in Portugal, myriad theories about what happened to her have taken root, but only one fact remains uncontested: that she was reported missing at 10.14pm on the evening of Thursday, May 3, 2007.
It was at that point, when police were called, that the clock started ticking on the biggest missing persons investigation for decades, a search which remains very much active to this day.
Facts, the hard currency of any police investigation, have proved almost uniquely elusive; every sighting, every timing and every witness statement has been disputed in the years that have elapsed since.
Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry McCann quickly came under suspicion by Portuguese police, a development that the couple are certain meant vital clues were missed in the first hours and days after Madeleine’s disappearance.
Every possible theory has been explored since then: that Madeleine was abducted by a paedophile; that she was killed during a bungled burglary and her body dumped; that she was abducted by traffickers and sold to a childless couple; that she wandered out of the apartment and died in a tragic accident, and many more besides.
To date, however, not one shred of proof of what happened to Madeleine has been unearthed. The question of what happened to Madeleine would become not only a personal tragedy for the McCann family, but a national obsession in the UK and in Portugal.
Madeleine, of Rothley, Leicestershire, was on the penultimate day of her family holiday on the day she vanished. She had spent part of the day playing by the swimming pool in the Ocean Club resort, where the last known picture of her was taken at 2.29pm.
Reports of when she was last seen alive by independent witnesses vary, but she was still alive at around 6pm, when she and her parents went into their apartment at 5A Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, where Madeleine and her two-year-old twin brother and sister were readied for bed.
The McCanns told police they put the children to bed at around 7pm, and that all three were asleep by 8.30pm, when they went for dinner at a tapas bar 50 yards across the pool from their apartment. There they met seven friends with whom they were on holiday.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Kate and Gerry McCann
The McCanns say checks were made on their children every half-hour, sometimes by other members of the party, comprising Dr Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner, from Exeter, Dr Matthew and Rachael Oldfield, from London, and David and Fiona Payne, from Leicester, together with Mrs Payne's mother Dianne Webster. Mrs Webster, however, reportedly told police that each couple was responsible for checking their own children.
Gerry McCann went to the apartment at 9.05pm, when all the children were sleeping soundly and Madeleine was still in her bed, he says.
The police in Portugal, however, have never accepted the McCanns’ evidence as undisputed. They initially regarded the McCanns as suspects, and believed the McCanns could have killed Madeleine any time after the last independent sighting of her at 6pm.
Dr Matthew Oldfield went into apartment 5A at 9.30pm, and noticed that Madeleine’s room seemed lighter than the others, as if the shutters had been partially opened. He could not be certain whether Madeleine was there.
Kate McCann was next to check on the children, at 10pm. She ran back to the restaurant moments later, saying Madeleine was missing. The McCanns and their friends made a quick search of the resort, but after finding no sign of Madeleine the police were called at 10.14pm.
The McCanns told police they had put Madeleine to bed with her pink comfort blanket and favourite soft toy, Cuddle Cat, and was wearing short-sleeved Marks & Spencer Eeyore pyjamas.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]The bed where Madeleine had been sleeping when she went missing
Crucially, however, the apartment was not initially treated as a crime scene, meaning around 20 people went in and out before it was sealed off, contaminating potential evidence. Roadblocks were not put in place until 10am the next day, border guards were not informed for hours and Interpol did not put out a global missing persons alert for five days.
It meant that the most crucial time of any missing persons investigation – the first 24 hours – were largely squandered, and police have been trying to catch up ever since. Yet potentially key sightings and artists’ impressions of suspects were kept from the public for years.
Mary and Martin Smith, from Ireland, told police they saw a man carrying a child matching Madeleine’s description at around 10pm on Rua da Escola Primaria, 500 yards from the McCanns’ apartment. He was heading towards the beach, did not look like a tourist and did not seem comfortable carrying the child, they said.
Their evidence was compelling, but it was only in October 2013 that two e-fit images of the man, compiled by police from descriptions given by Mr and Mrs Smith, were released by Scotland Yard to coincide with a BBC Crimewatch reconstruction of Madeleine’s disappearance. He remains a suspect.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Two police e-fits of the man described by the Smiths
There were also blind alleys. Jane Tanner, one of the tapas diners, told police that when she left the restaurant at 9.15pm to check on her own daughter, she saw a man carrying a small child, wearing pink pyjamas, in his arms.
For years afterwards, the mystery man would be a key suspect, if not the prime suspect, but in October 2013 the Metropolitan Police announced that a British holidaymaker who had been taking his daughter back to his apartment after picking her up from an evening crèche, had been identified as the man Miss Tanner had seen and ruled out of the inquiry.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Madeleine and, right, the man seen by Jane Tanner. He has since been traced and ruled out
The first person to become an “arguido”, or official suspect, was Robert Murat, a local property consultant, whose home was searched 12 days after the disappearance. He was formally cleared of suspicion in 2008 and won £600,000 in libel damages from 11 British newspapers.
The Portuguese Police, however, were suspicious of the McCanns from the beginning, partly due to a clash of cultures. They could not believe that parents would leave their children unattended, and did not approve of the McCanns’ use of the media to raise the profile of the case, in a country where secrecy is the hallmark of all police investigations.
The arrival of two British sniffer dogs in Portugal in July 2007 only hardened that belief. One dog was trained to sniff out traces of human blood, the other was trained to sniff out the scent of dead bodies. Both dogs were taken to several locations connected to the investigation, and gave alerts only in apartment 5A. Later, the cadaver dog gave an alert inside a Renault car, hired by the McCanns 24 days after Madeleine went missing.
DNA tests on samples taken from the car proved inconclusive, but the Portuguese police wrongly told journalists they were a “100 per cent match” for Madeleine.
The Portuguese police came up with the theory that Madeleine had been killed by her parents by accident, possibly by being given an overdose of a sedative to make her sleep, that they had hidden the body, faked her abduction and then used the hire car weeks later to move her body to a burial location.
In early September 2007, according to Kate McCann, she was told by the Portuguese police that if she admitted that Madeleine had died in the apartment and she had hidden her body she might only serve a two-year sentence and Gerry McCann would not be charged at all. On September 7 the couple were both made arguidos.
Goncalo Amaral, the chief inspector who had been in charge of the case, resigned in 2008 to write a book alleging that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment and the McCanns had faked the abduction. The McCanns sued him for libel, with the court expected to make its decision late in 2014.
In July 2008 the Portuguese attorney general announced that the McCanns were no longer suspects and the investigation was closed. The McCanns hired private investigators to carry on the search, but it was not until May 2011 that Theresa May, the Home Secretary, announced that Scotland Yard would review the evidence in the case, which had until then been the responsibility of Leicestershire Police, working with the Portuguese authorities.
In July 2013 Operation Grange, the review of the available evidence, became a full-blown criminal inquiry, and Scotland Yard said it was concentrating on a “criminal act by a stranger”.
The Yard announced it was looking into possible links between Madeleine’s disappearance and bogus charity collectors who were knocking on doors in Praia da Luz at the time. Between 3.30pm and 5.30pm on the day in question there were four separate sightings of men who said they were collecting money for an orphanage. British detectives believe men whose photofits they released in 2013 may have been engaged in reconnaissance for a pre-planned abduction or for burglaries, in keeping with the theory that Madeleine may have been killed by a burglar she disturbed.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Is this how Madeleine would look today?
Scotland Yard also said in 2013 it was eager to trace a blond-haired man who had been seen loitering in the area on April 30 and May 2, looking at apartment 1A. He was described as “ugly” with a spotty complexion and a large nose. Two blond-haired men were seen on the balcony of the empty apartment 5C, two doors from 5A, at 2.30pm on the day of the disappearance. Blond men were seen again near 5A at 4pm and 6pm that day, and at 11pm that night. Following the appeal on Crimewatch, the Portuguese police re-opened their own investigation.
Scotland Yard officers travelled to Portugal in 2014 to interview four suspects and carried out searches of the area around the apartment using ground-penetrating radar. One of the men who was interview has since been eliminated from the inquiry, but the other three men remain arguidos.
The British officers questioned them on suspicion of being part of a burglary gang that panicked after killing Madeleine during a bungled break-in. They all protested their innocence and were released without charge.
Another suspect was Euclides Monteiro, a convicted burglar with a drug habit, who had been sacked from the Ocean Club in 2006. Mobile phone tracking showed he had been in the area on the night of the disappearance, and police believe he may have been burgling apartments there to fund his drug addiction. He died in a tractor accident in 2009.
In March 2014 Scotland Yard announced that a lone intruder sexually assaulted five girls aged between seven and 10 in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006. The man, who has never been caught, was said to have a “very, very unhealthy interest” in young white girls.
The four incidents, one of which involved two girls, were among 12 in which men had entered holiday accommodation in the area, including two incidents in Praia da Luz. The force also said it was looking at 38 “people of interest” and were researching the backgrounds of 530 known sex offenders, including 59 regarded as high interest.
Kate and Gerry McCann remain convinced their daughter is alive and that they will one day be reunited. The hunt to find her continues.
____________________
Goncalo Amaral: "Then there's the window we found Kate's finger prints.
She said she had never touched that window and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day....it doesn't add up"
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Seek truth 06.09.14 7:40
It is a long story!
Now why would 20 people enter the appartment contaminating it, before the police arrived, if poor madeleine was not even there.
THEY SHOULD ALL BE OUTSIDE LOOKING FOR HER, ESPECIALLY HER PARENTS!
Now why would 20 people enter the appartment contaminating it, before the police arrived, if poor madeleine was not even there.
THEY SHOULD ALL BE OUTSIDE LOOKING FOR HER, ESPECIALLY HER PARENTS!
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by PeterMac 06.09.14 8:30
Too many sticker books to rip up.
Got to get the story right.
Got to get the story right.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by SixMillionQuid 06.09.14 8:53
Seek truth wrote:It is a long story!
Now why would 20 people enter the appartment contaminating it, before the police arrived, if poor madeleine was not even there.
THEY SHOULD ALL BE OUTSIDE LOOKING FOR HER, ESPECIALLY HER PARENTS!
Because they rightly assumed she had wandered off and conducted a missing persons search. Those in the know, who's initials thoughts that she was abducted, decided to keep that info to themselves.
____________________
"It is my belief that Scotland Yard was set out on a mission, not one to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann but to rewrite the history of the case in such a way that the majority of the public simply forgets the past." - The Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Dr What 06.09.14 10:00
If the Mcs and Tapas lot believed that Maddie had been abducted from the very beginning, why the need to waste time trying to produce a couple of time-lines for the whole evening in order to give to the Police? Surely the only thing that would matter to the Police at that stage was knowing the last time she was seen alive and where and by whom.
It would seem to me that they were being a little bit too clever with those time-lines.Why would the police be interested in who visited other apartments to 'check' on other children.Irrelevant.It would seem that the time-lines were produced to establish the beginnings of an alibi for someone...or all of them.
A little bit too clever.
It would seem to me that they were being a little bit too clever with those time-lines.Why would the police be interested in who visited other apartments to 'check' on other children.Irrelevant.It would seem that the time-lines were produced to establish the beginnings of an alibi for someone...or all of them.
A little bit too clever.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Evening_All 06.09.14 11:15
Who was, were the last people to see her alive? That is the nucleus of any investigation.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by gbwales 06.09.14 17:37
Setting aside a couple of things like the 10:14 calling of police, and the roads not closed till mid the following morning - I think it's a very interesting piece, having a complete absence of partial / partisan quotes - not 'sources close to...' etc.
And crucially, lots of qualifying going on - 'they claim', 'they said' - and also mentioning of disputed/untrue claims, like the checking. There is also the mention of the dogs, and of the eFits being "kept from the public for years". And they've had the decency not to call Amaral either sacked or disgraced.
Doesn't show the McCanns in any kind of good or sympathetic light really. And overall tone / balance is far from the usual "Pro" nonsense in the mainstream.
And crucially, lots of qualifying going on - 'they claim', 'they said' - and also mentioning of disputed/untrue claims, like the checking. There is also the mention of the dogs, and of the eFits being "kept from the public for years". And they've had the decency not to call Amaral either sacked or disgraced.
Doesn't show the McCanns in any kind of good or sympathetic light really. And overall tone / balance is far from the usual "Pro" nonsense in the mainstream.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Newintown 06.09.14 17:54
Dr What wrote:If the Mcs and Tapas lot believed that Maddie had been abducted from the very beginning, why the need to waste time trying to produce a couple of time-lines for the whole evening in order to give to the Police? Surely the only thing that would matter to the Police at that stage was knowing the last time she was seen alive and where and by whom.
It would seem to me that they were being a little bit too clever with those time-lines.Why would the police be interested in who visited other apartments to 'check' on other children.Irrelevant.It would seem that the time-lines were produced to establish the beginnings of an alibi for someone...or all of them.
A little bit too clever.
That's a very good point, Dr What. One I'd never thought of before.
Seeing it in that context seems to point the finger at the Tapas 9 that they were going over the top to cover up for themselves and had something to hide.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by whatsupdoc 06.09.14 18:16
Until the McCanns tell us what happened we will never know the exact details of what happened that week.
I tend to think that Madeleine had an accident when she fell over the back of the couch and broke her neck during the w/e. The blood spatter could have come from an attempted trache.
She may have had sleeping tablets from both parents in error.
I think the Wednesday "Why didn't you come when X was crying?" was just over-egging the lies.
If it wasn't for the interference from the UK politicians, I think the Portuguese could have wrapped up the case pretty quickly as they came to much more sensible conclusions that the UK.
Not such a case of Too Many Cooks as Too Many Crooks spoil the Plot.
If OG is wound down, what will happen to the police? Will they form a Ghostbusters 3 squad or Hunt the Fairy?.....I think the govt is a disgrace...and I haven't mentioned corruption, expenses, paedos, phone tapping.
I tend to think that Madeleine had an accident when she fell over the back of the couch and broke her neck during the w/e. The blood spatter could have come from an attempted trache.
She may have had sleeping tablets from both parents in error.
I think the Wednesday "Why didn't you come when X was crying?" was just over-egging the lies.
If it wasn't for the interference from the UK politicians, I think the Portuguese could have wrapped up the case pretty quickly as they came to much more sensible conclusions that the UK.
Not such a case of Too Many Cooks as Too Many Crooks spoil the Plot.
If OG is wound down, what will happen to the police? Will they form a Ghostbusters 3 squad or Hunt the Fairy?.....I think the govt is a disgrace...and I haven't mentioned corruption, expenses, paedos, phone tapping.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Trainer 06.09.14 18:27
Quite balanced for the MSM, lots of they say this happened not this is what happened
All keeping with in the super inj rules but not towing the cm line
All keeping with in the super inj rules but not towing the cm line
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Evening_All 06.09.14 19:39
So in relation to my earlier question : Who were the last people to see her? Who checked the apartment and looked in? Anytime I've checked children at night I at least verify they are still safely tucked up in bed.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Guest 06.09.14 19:54
The last independent one was the creche workers at 5-30 pm I believe.Evening_All wrote:So in relation to my earlier question : Who were the last people to see her? Who checked the apartment and looked in? Anytime I've checked children at night I at least verify they are still safely tucked up in bed.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by PeterMac 06.09.14 20:00
Evening_All wrote:So in relation to my earlier question : Who were the last people to see her? Who checked the apartment and looked in? Anytime I've checked children at night I at least verify they are still safely tucked up in bed.
I think the answers to those questions are quite easy
1 Who were the last people to see her ? WE DON'T KNOW
2 Who checked the apartment and looked in ? WE DON'T KNOW
They say
1 Gerry
2 Gerry, and then Oldfield. (Though Oldfield realised ha was in a very dangerous position if he said he saw Madeleine - so he said he didn't and dumped that back on Gerry)
But there is considerable doubt about both.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Guest 06.09.14 20:02
Evening_All wrote:So in relation to my earlier question : Who were the last people to see her? Who checked the apartment and looked in? Anytime I've checked children at night I at least verify they are still safely tucked up in bed.
Ah. That old hot potato. According to the official line it should have been Matt Oldfield. But he tossed it back to Gerry when he claims he didn't enter the room. So the last non-McCann would have been David Payne (and possibly Fiona if she did indeed join them).
Unofficially, who knows?
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by whatsupdoc 06.09.14 20:10
I don't think any checking took place on the Thurday evening hence the need to cobble together a timeline or two.The twins may have been looked after by someone else in another app.
I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.
Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.
My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.
Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.
My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Guest 06.09.14 20:14
Does that rubbish Amaral's theory or enhance it.whatsupdoc wrote:I don't think any checking took place on the Thurday evening hence the need to cobble together a timeline or two.The twins may have been looked after by someone else in another app.
I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.
Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.
My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by whatsupdoc 06.09.14 20:24
WMD wrote:Does that rubbish Amaral's theory or enhance it.whatsupdoc wrote:I don't think any checking took place on the Thurday evening hence the need to cobble together a timeline or two.The twins may have been looked after by someone else in another app.
I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.
Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.
My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
I know G Amaral said she died on the Thursday but unless he knows a lot more than we do, which I'm sure he does, I think he was being as generous to the McCanns as he could be. He said accident rather than anything else and without a body, I don't know how time of death could have been known.
I'm 100% behind GA and the PJ/GNR who did as good a job as they were dealt by the McCanns. Fingers crossed he wins the upcoming trial.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by NickE 06.09.14 20:44
The dog found cadaver odour behind the sofa and in the wardrobe, but also on "Cuddle Cat".whatsupdoc wrote:Until the McCanns tell us what happened we will never know the exact details of what happened that week.
I tend to think that Madeleine had an accident when she fell over the back of the couch and broke her neck during the w/e. The blood spatter could have come from an attempted trache.
She may have had sleeping tablets from both parents in error.
I think the Wednesday "Why didn't you come when X was crying?" was just over-egging the lies.
If it wasn't for the interference from the UK politicians, I think the Portuguese could have wrapped up the case pretty quickly as they came to much more sensible conclusions that the UK.
Not such a case of Too Many Cooks as Too Many Crooks spoil the Plot.
If OG is wound down, what will happen to the police? Will they form a Ghostbusters 3 squad or Hunt the Fairy?.....I think the govt is a disgrace...and I haven't mentioned corruption, expenses, paedos, phone tapping.
How did the odour come to "Cuddle Cat",?
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Dont Make Me Laff 06.09.14 20:50
whatsupdoc wrote:WMD wrote:Does that rubbish Amaral's theory or enhance it.whatsupdoc wrote:I don't think any checking took place on the Thurday evening hence the need to cobble together a timeline or two.The twins may have been looked after by someone else in another app.
I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.
Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.
My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
I know G Amaral said she died on the Thursday but unless he knows a lot more than we do, which I'm sure he does, MANY BLV 2 I think he was being as generous to the McCanns as he could be. Pity they didn't take his kind offer! The fact that Kate WILLINGLY hampered the investigation by NOT answering 48 questions speaks volumes... No one would hamper an investigation into a missing child - UNLESS one is lower than a snakes belly (FULL STOP) He said accident rather than anything else and without a body, I don't know how time of death could have been known. When dogs alert - TIME is irrelevant - The ALERT is ENOUGH !
I'm 100% behind GA and the PJ/GNR who did as good a job as they were dealt by the McCanns. Fingers crossed he wins the upcoming trial. HERE HERE
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Guest 06.09.14 21:02
Was his book more of a brief summary of what he thought happened rather than a full blown account? I hope he does know more and maybe it is kept back in the hope it will get to trial and anything else known can't be released for fear of jeopardising a trial if it should happen.I can see the OG going one of two ways,they have collected some previously missed piece of evidence and can help bring about a trial or there is not enough evidence to bring a charge of any thing against any one.All IMO.whatsupdoc wrote:WMD wrote:Does that rubbish Amaral's theory or enhance it.whatsupdoc wrote:I don't think any checking took place on the Thurday evening hence the need to cobble together a timeline or two.The twins may have been looked after by someone else in another app.
I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.
Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.
My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
I know G Amaral said she died on the Thursday but unless he knows a lot more than we do, which I'm sure he does, I think he was being as generous to the McCanns as he could be. He said accident rather than anything else and without a body, I don't know how time of death could have been known.
I'm 100% behind GA and the PJ/GNR who did as good a job as they were dealt by the McCanns. Fingers crossed he wins the upcoming trial.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Dont Make Me Laff 06.09.14 21:11
WMD wrote:Was his book more of a brief summary of what he thought happened rather than a full blown account? don't underestimate GA I hope he does know more and maybe it is kept back in the hope it will get to trial and anything else known can't be released Not all of the evidence collected by the PJ was released for fear of jeopardising a trial if it should happen. check I can see the OG going one of two ways,they have collected some previously missed piece of evidence and can help bring about a trial or there is not enough evidence to bring a charge of any thing against any one.All IMO. In the words of GA - when the McCann's are no longer protected.................whatsupdoc wrote:WMD wrote:Does that rubbish Amaral's theory or enhance it.whatsupdoc wrote:I don't think any checking took place on the Thurday evening hence the need to cobble together a timeline or two.The twins may have been looked after by someone else in another app.
I have always thought that Madeleine died at the w/e and the parents had all week to sort out the problems. Cleaning the app. on the Thursday would have left a strong smell. I think that was done on the Monday, a very quiet day it would appear from the blog. The creche register certainly looks confusing.
Hence, the last people to see Madeleine would have been the parents and members of Tapas 7 who tried to save her life followed by a pact of silence.
My theory is better than the McCanns as it has 2 pieces of evidence, namely timelines. Who else has been out, left their young children alone, then come home and written a timeline....just bonkers ehh?
I know G Amaral said she died on the Thursday but unless he knows a lot more than we do, which I'm sure he does, I think he was being as generous to the McCanns as he could be. He said accident rather than anything else and without a body, I don't know how time of death could have been known.
I'm 100% behind GA and the PJ/GNR who did as good a job as they were dealt by the McCanns. Fingers crossed he wins the upcoming trial.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Dont Make Me Laff 06.09.14 21:12
PS
Dogs DO NOT LIE
Dogs DO NOT LIE
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Guest 06.09.14 21:29
But that alone is not enough as we know,but it does go some way.Dont Make Me Laff wrote:PS
Dogs DO NOT LIE
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by whatsupdoc 06.09.14 21:30
Dont Make Me Laff wrote:PS
Dogs DO NOT LIE
How foolish G McCann looked when he replied that dogs were extremely unreliable......Nurse... a clean pair of underpants!
The dogs were brilliant and had a 100% track record ....right every time.
When my dogs sniff somewhere looking for a toy , they are ALWAYS right.
Somebody died in 5A and it all points to Madeleine.
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I think Sky told Martin to stick to the script after this video report.
As usual when damning evidence surfaces, steps are taken to say it isn't correct. In this case FSS was closed down.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by canada12 06.09.14 21:35
Evening_All wrote:So in relation to my earlier question : Who were the last people to see her? Who checked the apartment and looked in? Anytime I've checked children at night I at least verify they are still safely tucked up in bed.
If we discount The Last Picture as being counterfeit (at least because the EXIF data for time /date has been altered)...
If we discount The Tennis Photo as being unreliable because it may or may not be Madeleine and there's confusion around when it was taken and by whom...
If we discount the creche records because they don't seem to be reliable...
If we discount the nannies because they may not have been able to positively identify Madeleine on sight...
If we discount all of the Tapas 9 because their claims are unreliable...
If we discount Kate and Gerry because their claims are unreliable...
If we believe that THIS is a true picture of Madeleine, taken in the first day or so of the holiday...
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Then the person who took this photo is probably the last person who saw Madeleine alive and can produce proof of it.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Okeydokey 07.09.14 0:33
Dr What wrote:If the Mcs and Tapas lot believed that Maddie had been abducted from the very beginning, why the need to waste time trying to produce a couple of time-lines for the whole evening in order to give to the Police? Surely the only thing that would matter to the Police at that stage was knowing the last time she was seen alive and where and by whom.
It would seem to me that they were being a little bit too clever with those time-lines.Why would the police be interested in who visited other apartments to 'check' on other children.Irrelevant.It would seem that the time-lines were produced to establish the beginnings of an alibi for someone...or all of them.
A little bit too clever.
Even weirder - they were producing the timelines even though Jane Tanner had communicated to the group that she saw the abduction take place...and knew the direction in which the abductor was walking.
What would you do? Sit down and construct a timeline? Or rush out in the direction indicated by Jane's sighting, banging on vehicles, looking in ditches,calling out Madeleine's name*...
*Almost certainly calling out Maddy had they been required to but for some unknown reason the claim is this 3 year old unlike virtually every other 3 year old was resistant to diminutive name forms. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has personal experience of a 3 year old who resists an affectionate diminutive name form. I have never personally come across that before. A 3 year old might resist being called something completely different I would agree - but an affectionate shortened form? I doubt it. It may be a very rare occurrence - in which case we have to assign this to all the other rare occurrences that make up the MMcC case.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by cbeagle 07.09.14 1:45
Okeydokey wrote:*Almost certainly calling out Maddy had they been required to but for some unknown reason the claim is this 3 year old unlike virtually every other 3 year old was resistant to diminutive name forms. I'd be interested to know if anyone else has personal experience of a 3 year old who resists an affectionate diminutive name form. I have never personally come across that before. A 3 year old might resist being called something completely different I would agree - but an affectionate shortened form? I doubt it. It may be a very rare occurrence - in which case we have to assign this to all the other rare occurrences that make up the MMcC case.
FWIW - My son has always resisted diminutive form of his name, and still does at almost 19.
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by jeanmonroe 07.09.14 1:50
Okeydokey:
Even weirdier? (is that even a word?)
Gerry McCann personally 'signed' his name , GERALD, on the 'second' handwritten timeline, but hours LATER, when JT supposedly 'told', him for the FIRST time, at 3:00am, 4th May 2007, what she had 'seen' he REELS BACK IN 'SHOCK' UNABLE TO TAKE IN WHAT SHE'S JUST TOLD HIM!
But he's ALREADY, hours BEFORE, written his name on a 'timeline' that INCLUDES her 'sighting'!
and not only that, JT's 'sighting' is also HIGH LIGHTED, on the second handwritten 'timeline', by a 'box/rectangle' surrounding it!
(NOT ''emphasised' on the first handwritten timeline, which GM did NOT put his name on)
'compiled' hours earlier than BEFORE JT, FIRST 'told' GM what she had er, 'seen'
FWIW, i believe the 'high lighting/ emphasising' of JT's 'sees stranger carrying CHILD' on the second 'timeline' was actually 'done' by GM , himself.
Now WHY do you think HE would do THAT?
Rhetorical!
Weird, innit?
Even weirdier? (is that even a word?)
Gerry McCann personally 'signed' his name , GERALD, on the 'second' handwritten timeline, but hours LATER, when JT supposedly 'told', him for the FIRST time, at 3:00am, 4th May 2007, what she had 'seen' he REELS BACK IN 'SHOCK' UNABLE TO TAKE IN WHAT SHE'S JUST TOLD HIM!
But he's ALREADY, hours BEFORE, written his name on a 'timeline' that INCLUDES her 'sighting'!
and not only that, JT's 'sighting' is also HIGH LIGHTED, on the second handwritten 'timeline', by a 'box/rectangle' surrounding it!
(NOT ''emphasised' on the first handwritten timeline, which GM did NOT put his name on)
'compiled' hours earlier than BEFORE JT, FIRST 'told' GM what she had er, 'seen'
FWIW, i believe the 'high lighting/ emphasising' of JT's 'sees stranger carrying CHILD' on the second 'timeline' was actually 'done' by GM , himself.
Now WHY do you think HE would do THAT?
Rhetorical!
Weird, innit?
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Spandex 07.09.14 5:36
I strongly believe that the truth always comes out eventually. Here in South Africa our president has been dodging the truth for many years regarding fraud charges but after many court cases spy tapes have been handed over to the opposition. Never give up what you dish out comes back to bite you. Imagine what it must be like for the Macs to live with themselves - many not believing a word that comes out of their mouths, and the worse part is that the twins are growing up and the fear that they must feel for the future must be unbearable all IMO
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Re: Madeleine McCann: are we any closer to knowing the truth?
by Woofer 07.09.14 10:43
Does GM always refer to himself as "Gerald" ?
A defence lawyer may say this time line was prepared for the police so it would help them fix the abductor's entry time.
Just playing
advocate here.
Also, those timelines could have been written on any previous day particularly if it was planned from as far back as the Monday or Tuesday.
A defence lawyer may say this time line was prepared for the police so it would help them fix the abductor's entry time.
Just playing
advocate here.Also, those timelines could have been written on any previous day particularly if it was planned from as far back as the Monday or Tuesday.
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