"Digging" with a helicopter (continued from 'digging at resort')

by **PeterMac** 09.05.14 11:41

"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?

by whatliesbehindthesofa 09.05.14 11:45

That's what I've been thinking, I agree with you all your ergo's :)

Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions, not knowing enough about the kinds of equipment that could be carried in a helicopter.

I find it interesting that it is a military helicopter, not a civilian one.

by plebgate 09.05.14 11:48

Thanks for OP PeterM, said it before and will say it again. NEW CHANNELS EVERYWHERE, GET THIS MAN ON YOUR "WHAT THE PAPERS SAY" slots/progs and get some of your credibility back. The Muppets they have had on so far is NOT FUNNY.

Go PeterM, Go.

by Guest 09.05.14 11:51

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:That's what I've been thinking, I agree with you all your ergo's :)

Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions, not knowing enough about the kinds of equipment that could be carried in a helicopter.

I find it interesting that it is a military helicopter, not a civilian one.

Time of year could be significant, water courses etc? I referred to this elsewhere, but Monday's "A Place In the Sun" (which I believe was a repeat) was super weird on many levels. Apart from the inclusion of a somewhat pointless interview with Sally Eveleigh, they also visited an inland village that was, for some months of the year, connected to the sea - even going so far as to point out that the neighbours owned a speedboat, despite the river behind the houses being bone dry at the time of filming.

I don't like events being force-fitted into some kind of narrative but that's exactly what I feel is happening here.

by Angelique 09.05.14 11:52

I also think that it depends on what the agenda is. It could play both ways.

We are throwing everything at this search to try and ascertain what happened to Madeleine.

Or

It's a jolly good way to impress the UK taxpayers.

The Met men do look well on our money though!

by nglfi 09.05.14 11:56

Just wondering - when the forensics expert spoke on Sky news about looking for 'lush vegetation', is this because it eould indicate the presence of a cadaver? Some news outlets are very keen to emphasise the police are not looking for a body, but this idea doesn't make sense to me in any other context. What else would lush vegetation indicate?

by Nereid 09.05.14 11:58

It would be interesting to know what technique they are using.

There is a relatively new technique out called hyperspectral imaging:

"For the first five years or so a decaying body inhibits plant growth. "Initially it's a pretty toxic environment," for plants, said Kalacska, who, along with Pablo Arroyo and Tim Moore, manages the technological side of the research. Plants that grow over such recent graves don't reflect as much light in the visible and near infrared region, which scientists can detect using their cameras.
After five years, however, the plants growing over buried body suddenly reflect light instead of absorbing light. In fact, on-grave plants reflect more than twice the green light of off-grave plants. For a human eye detecting such tiny changes would be "very hard," said Kalacska, but the difference is obvious to the hyperspectral camera.
The increase in reflected light comes from an increase in chlorophyll, the pigment that plants use to convert light from the sun. After five years a decomposing body becomes fertilizer, supplying the growing plants with much needed nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus. Bigger plants with bigger, healthier leaves reflect more light. "

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by nglfi 09.05.14 12:02

Nereid wrote:It would be interesting to know what technique they are using.

There is a relatively new technique out called hyperspectral imaging:

"For the first five years or so a decaying body inhibits plant growth. "Initially it's a pretty toxic environment," for plants, said Kalacska, who, along with Pablo Arroyo and Tim Moore, manages the technological side of the research. Plants that grow over such recent graves don't reflect as much light in the visible and near infrared region, which scientists can detect using their cameras.
After five years, however, the plants growing over buried body suddenly reflect light instead of absorbing light. In fact, on-grave plants reflect more than twice the green light of off-grave plants. For a human eye detecting such tiny changes would be "very hard," said Kalacska, but the difference is obvious to the hyperspectral camera.
The increase in reflected light comes from an increase in chlorophyll, the pigment that plants use to convert light from the sun. After five years a decomposing body becomes fertilizer, supplying the growing plants with much needed nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorus. Bigger plants with bigger, healthier leaves reflect more light. "

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Very very interesting indeed, thank you. We're past the 5 year mark so it would be interesting to see
if that figures in their equations!

by whatliesbehindthesofa 09.05.14 12:04

Time of year could well be significant. Perhaps it is not just good timing that this search has begun at the same time of year that Madeleine disappeared.

by Tilly-flop 09.05.14 12:07

Will PJ/SY be using metal detectors too, when they search the various areas in PdL?

Rest of post deleted.......aleady mentioned and has a thread and on other threads too.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 09.05.14 12:11

Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

by Woofer 09.05.14 12:13

I can`t see them going to all this trouble unless they`ve had a tip-off and have a good idea where and what they`re looking for. They`ve padded out the story to appear less precise in case certain people do a runner.

by Cristobell 09.05.14 12:13

PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?

It is always good to read your summaries Petermac, you keep it real!

I was reading the statements of Mark Harrison last night, he was the British search expert brought in, in 2007. He was tasked with finding a burial area on the supposition that Madeleine had died in the apartment and had been buried nearby, ie, not where she had been dumped by an abductor. It now looks as though 7 years on, they are following up on his report, although I agree, they must have more specific information to have obtained permission to start digging.

by worriedmum 09.05.14 12:17

Tilly-flop wrote:Will PJ/SY be using metal detectors too, when they search the various areas in PdL?

The reason I chose to post my comments on this thread is – wasn’t there speculation that Gerry (or Kate) lost their wedding ring during their holiday in PdL w/c 28^th April 2007?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Nereid 09.05.14 12:17

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

Perhaps Mods can move it to the appropriate thread or remove the quoted 'riddle', as it is disrupting the flow of this one. Thanks roses

by Guest 09.05.14 12:20

Cristobell wrote:
PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?
It is always good to read your summaries Petermac, you keep it real!

I was reading the statements of Mark Harrison last night, he was the British search expert brought in, in 2007. He was tasked with finding a burial area on the supposition that Madeleine had died in the apartment and had been buried nearby, ie, not where she had been dumped by an abductor. It now looks as though 7 years on, they are following up on his report, although I agree, they must have more specific information to have obtained permission to start digging.

IIRC the same Mark Harrison advised the investigation to focus on the parents..

by riskybuisness 09.05.14 12:20

If a civilian helicopter was used then the PJ may have been out the loop - thus best for them to use the military one.

I hardly ever post but read most days - have done since the 3a days- I don't believe that there is any massive cover up going on because if there was
1. we would probably never have heard much about the story in the first place
2. the mcc's would have met their fate to shut them up pretty early on - a suicide due to the fact they could not live without her story would have been easy to portray

I think that the politicians did what they always do - go where they think the votes are - regardless of facts etc- once they had made their beds it's been hard to back track- I bet many wish they had just stayed a out of it.

I still think that sometimes the simplest explanations just work the best- Kids left alone - one dies- all are scared that they could be charged and loose their other children and jobs (may even have been doing "stuff" that would have involved them popping back and forth to apartments for their own enjoyment-not for checking- as well as leaving kids).

What also crosses my mind is that they were mostly medics- I am sure that once they found her they would have worked to save her- her body would show that - anyone who has done resuscitation will know that you usually feel/hear the ribs break while doing this- I have luckily never had to do this to a child but have heard the bones of an adult go while doing it so I can only imagine that as a medic gets more desperate to restart the heart a childs bones would go even easier.

For that reason alone I do not think they would have left that body in PDL - That may the clue to needing to go back and remove it later (ie the car)- but how they would manage this under the watch of locals and the press- who knows.

by Sparklehorse 09.05.14 12:22

Perhaps that are hoping to uncover some hellish lairs. I am hopeful they might uncover some hellish liars instead

by canada12 09.05.14 12:22

PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?

Evidence of disturbed earth from 7 years ago - perhaps they have satellite photos of what the area looked like in 2007 before Madeleine disappeared, and are comparing what it looks like now, and what has changed that cannot be explained.

by Guest 09.05.14 12:22

Nereid wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

Perhaps Mods can move it to the appropriate thread or remove the quoted 'riddle', as it is disrupting the flow of this one. Thanks

It has already been removed.

by russiandoll 09.05.14 12:23

from twitter

Joana Morais ‏@xklamation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
PJ about to discard English Police strongest lead that Madeleine was abducted by a sex predator exclusive by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by ChippyM 09.05.14 12:24

nglfi wrote:Just wondering - when the forensics expert spoke on Sky news about looking for 'lush vegetation', is this because it eould indicate the presence of a cadaver? Some news outlets are very keen to emphasise the police are not looking for a body, but this idea doesn't make sense to me in any other context. What else would lush vegetation indicate?

I took that as meaning a body because the plants over the body would be getting more 'fertilizer'. I don't think this person was at all connected to the investigation so they just got them on to speculate I suppose. I don't think any of the reporters or newspapers can do anything but speculate seen as Pj ans SY are not announcing what they're looking for.

by Guest 09.05.14 12:24

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

It's not you, is it, wlbts? laughat

by Nereid 09.05.14 12:25

candyfloss wrote:
It has already been removed.

Thank you

by DurhamGuy1967 09.05.14 12:27

What equipment would a military helicopter have that a civilian or even police helicopter would not? Infra Red , Very High res-cameras, Ground penetrating RADAR, LIDAR ( LIDAR is my favourite, very powerful technique used by archaeologists to analyse the ground.)

by whatliesbehindthesofa 09.05.14 12:27

Ladyinred wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

It's not you, is it, wlbts?

Nah, you know me, I like getting straight to the point, riddles not my style ;-)

by ChippyM 09.05.14 12:28

russiandoll wrote:from twitter

Joana Morais ‏@xklamation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
PJ about to discard English Police strongest lead that Madeleine was abducted by a sex predator exclusive by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Sounds promising... but they never thought is was a sex predator anyway!

by Tilly-flop 09.05.14 12:29

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Funny how the 'Riddler's post is popping up in various different threads.

That was my point wlbts, though my post was (understandably) deleted, but I noticed the 'Riddler' was quite prolific with his/her posts...

by NickE 09.05.14 12:35

PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?

Maybe they chart the ground to exclude areas where it is impossible to dig.
Here in Sweden, a method has been used by helicopter to see what it looks like underground,geology.

Google translate:
This project was for groundwater, but the method is also used to look at the geological structure
.
Geological Survey of Sweden , SGU , will map soil conditions in several areas of Gotland where ground water supply is deemed to be interesting from a drinking water perspective. Measurements are carried out with one for Sweden entirely new approach .

The measurements carried out by helicopter, conducted by the SGU in collaboration with the Region Gotland County Administrative Board of Gotland County Water Authority and the Southern Baltic Sea and Water Authority.

The purpose of the measurements , which will begin in late October , is to give a better understanding of groundwater conditions .

- We hope that the measurements will help us to locate areas may be appropriate from a drinking water perspective, and how deep and where there are saline groundwater . The measurements will also provide more knowledge on how sensitive areas are for contaminant transport , says Peter Dahlqvist , Project Manager at SGU .

Uses the proven method
As the method they have chosen to use a helicopter -borne geophysical system called SkyTEM . The method has been used in Denmark and tested on a small area in southern Sweden with good results.

- We have mapped 40 percent of Denmark with this method and produced an incredible accuracy of their data . Several new areas with good water has been found which is valuable information because 99 percent of Danes' drinking water is groundwater . Even in Skåne, where we performed a small pilot project , measurements have shown good results , says Peter Dahlqvist".

by RIPM 09.05.14 12:39

PeterMac wrote:"Digging" thread now at 100 pages, so starting another one - (if that is OK admin.)
Military helicopters are not just hired by the hour on the spur of the moment, like catamarans on the beach
ergo
this little jolly has been planned for a long time,
the PJ have had full knowledge of exactly what SY wanted to do - and by implication have approved it
The whole thing has been approved at VERY high level.
By which I mean Government - Ministry of Defence after consultation with the "Home Office" = Ministry of the Interior equivalent

ergo
Someone must have spelled out
Exactly WHAT they wanted to look for
Exactly WHERE they wanted to look
Exactly WHY
Exactly WHO
and so on.

And this must have been agreed as a viable and useful thing to do.
By the entire Chain of Command

They are clearly NOT looking for freshly turned soil, nor are they looking for a little girl in a pink hat
So what are they looking for that they could not see on a decent map or aerial photograph.

Suggestions ?

Senior Portuguese Government Official to Head of Airforce

What's our helicopter doing today?
A training flight, why?

Scotland Yard want to look good, to the British taxpayer by flying a 'recon' mission

Tell them 500,000 euros for an afternoons hire

Done
Yes, they have been!