3 new Lazzeri-lies . .

Jemmied_Shatter wrote:

Woofer wrote:@AndyB - I agree that particular pic is less offensive than the others and justified in that it is another child that has died.  It is more to do with the history of pics J_S has used and his/her motivations to post here.  Although a picture of Tia is not offensive in itself, it could be construed that MBM vanished in a similar manner and we do not know that for sure.

Changed to stop affecting sensitivities but we all know that if the killer of tia sharp whether by excess accident or not, had access to money and powerful friends then we would be having a speculative forum about her as well. The police didn't even bother to check upstairs when she was first reported missing and now we have the same Police service investigating the Portuguese?

jeanmonroe wrote:

Jemmied_Shatter wrote:

Woofer wrote:@AndyB - I agree that particular pic is less offensive than the others and justified in that it is another child that has died.  It is more to do with the history of pics J_S has used and his/her motivations to post here.  Although a picture of Tia is not offensive in itself, it could be construed that MBM vanished in a similar manner and we do not know that for sure.

Changed to stop affecting sensitivities but we all know that if the killer of tia sharp whether by excess accident or not, had access to money and powerful friends then we would be having a speculative forum about her as well. The police didn't even bother to check upstairs when she was first reported missing and now we have the same Police service investigating the Portuguese?

I did a long piece on the Met Police and Tia.

The 'incompancies' were ASTOUNDING!

UTTER, UTTER, DISGRACE!

IGNORED their OWN dogs 'alerts' for DAYS on end!

And then, one officer, had the bare faced cheek to say 'i went into the loft and I FOUND her'

NOTHING to do with the 'notoriously RELIABLE' police dogs!

And to think that at one time, and still probably, in their own feeble minds, the Met Police 'think' they are the GREATEST Police force, on the face of the Earth!

Memo to Met: "YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY, CORRUPTION RIDDLED, COVERERS UPPERS, CR*P"

gbwales wrote:@ j.rob

I'm very much in agreement with your interpretation of Russell's statement versus Kate's book version of the videoing incident.
To me it sounds like she is putting a pre-emptive and less worrying gloss on what may have been - if I read Russell's statement correctly - one of their party videoing someone else's daughter, either by design or simply incidentally. The connotations however, especially given their screaming of 'paedophiles' at every opportunity, being rather unfortunate for their own image.

In relation to that it is clear that one of their party DID have a video camera. It was handed to DC Stewart Martin of the Hampshire police at 21:00 on May 8th, along with a video tape from it - it was a Sony Handycam. This is the guy with the record of tech knowledge in recovering digital imagery etc, and at the same time he took delivery of the Olympus C50 camera and its memory cards (or at least those that were handed over / surrendered).
Whilst he inspected the images from the cards for the Olympus camera, he did not inspect the Sony Handycam or its accompanying tape and delivered it to the Hampshire police support HQ Imaging Unit at 8:00 on May 9th. I cannot find a record of the results of any further examination.

You can see these details here:
 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VIDEO_MEMORY.htm


One person who very specifically does NOT see Madeleine - or Kate or Gerry - on the afternoon of the 3rd is Diane Webster in her rogatory statement...
(Note - in these snippets below she is specifically discussing the afternoon of the 3rd only...)

DW
"We went down to the beach that day and just played around for a bit err  and then the men came in from their activities and we then went, because it was quite late, we decided rather than rush the children, to high tea at the Ocean Club. We’d just give them high tea in this beach restaurant that we’d been to before. So the children had high tea, or their tea, in this err restaurant, beach café, err…”


4078
"Who else was there around that time?”


DW
"Who else? Well it was, it was all of us err apart from Kate and Gerry and their children, yeah we were all there and err the men, I think because err Dave, I don’t know if the other two had them as well, they had to be back for tennis or something or some tennis thing, I don’t know if its due to start at six or something like that...”


4078
"It’s perfectly understandable that you can’t. Did you see Kate and Gerry at all during the day that day?”


DW
"Err well only in the morning when, at the tennis, err I’m get, do you know I’m getting confused because I know there was one err evening where they were, they were all playing, and they were playing tennis and we were, there’s the tennis courts were down a few steps that was more than the rest of the area and err we were with the children watching the men play but I can’t remember what night that was.”


4078
"Do you remember if you saw Madeleine that day?”


DW
"I don’t think I did see her that day because the fact that we’d gone down to the beach in the afternoon and we hadn’t got the kid, the high tea, had we gone to the high tea err with the children then yes we would have seen her, but err I don’t recollect err seeing her because in the morning at the tennis she would have been in the kids club.”


Diane's rogatory in full here: http://mccannfiles.com/id254.html

Garrincha wrote:Before we move on from discussing avatars could J_S please clarify who his/her latest picture is of?

Dee Coy wrote:j.rob, Kate's repetitive shrieking of "We've let her down" haunts me. If it is 'doctor speak' for 'the patient has died' this would fit with the removal while alive theory.

Trouble is, I've never been able to confirm if "We've let her down" is recognised medical in-house jargon  or not. Forum myth, again?

j.rob wrote:

Dee Coy wrote:j.rob, Kate's repetitive shrieking of "We've let her down" haunts me. If it is 'doctor speak' for 'the patient has died' this would fit with the removal while alive theory.

Trouble is, I've never been able to confirm if "We've let her down" is recognised medical in-house jargon  or not. Forum myth, again?

Not sure if it is medical jargon but the phrase certainly suggests that Madeleine's parents felt that they had failed to support or help her in a way that they should have done. Also, their behaviour that evening was very strange - the bowing down movements in front of the police, indicative of supplication. Their words said one thing but their body language gave them away. Which the police would have observed. And in fact their body language has continually given them away.

So if Madeleine's parents 'let her down'? In what way had they 'let her down?'

They have often used phrases like they regret not being there at the moment 'she was taken'. That could either mean 'taken away by someone' or it could be a euphemism for falling very ill and dying. Ot 'taken' in some other way, I supposed.

Interestingly, 'Taken' is the title of a film in which Liam Neeson hunts down his teenage daughter who was kidnapped while travelling in Paris by human traffickers for sexual slavery. It was released in 2008 but the plot line might have resonated with certain people.

There has been debate about these words on another thread whose title escapes me, and the general consensus is that letting a patient down is most definitely not medical in-house jargon for patients dying of preventable causes - medics being far more likely to cover each other's backs with 'we did everything we could' and other such platitudes.  

Having given these words some thought recently, it occurs to me they could be seen in context as Kate's expression of regret that her daughter could not be accorded the funeral rites of the Catholic church in which faith she was baptised. 

While I suspect emotions such as guilt and grief are not ones which come easily to Kate, neverthless I find it hard to believe she hasn't been subject to the odd imp pricking her conscience on occasion, albeit a glass of NZ wine soon puts a stop to any such activity.

Jemmied_Shatter wrote:

Garrincha wrote:Before we move on from discussing avatars could J_S please clarify who his/her latest picture is of?

Someone very close to me. The most beautiful girl in the world.
   

Mirage wrote:

Jemmied_Shatter wrote:

Garrincha wrote:Before we move on from discussing avatars could J_S please clarify who his/her latest picture is of?

Someone very close to me. The most beautiful girl in the world.
   

Don't tell me that's Harriet Harperson in her Pr I mE

ultimaThule wrote:
IMO David and Fiona Payne are pivotal because of their relationship with MO and RO'B which goes back many years before the McCanns arrived on the NHS Leicester scene and Fiona's particularly close relationship with Kate and that, at the very least, the Paynes acted as go-betweens to facilitate a cover up.   

Again IMO, if all of the group's children were being sedated on a nightly basis and JT/ROB and the Oldfields were told Madeleine had died due to an overdose or unexpected reaction to the drug used, I suspect it would not have been overly difficult to convince them that reporting her death to the relevant authorities, with the inevitability of autopsy and the probability that all of the children would be tested for ingestion of drugs, would not be either in their best interests or in the best interests of the group as a whole.   

I consider it entirely probable that what may have been presented to the above two couples as the bigger picture was an illusion which diguised the true picture, that Leics police were on the money, and that the PJ were far too kind to the McCanns and their pals. 

Fwiw, I think it likely Dianne Webster was initially kept out of the loop but I would regard her as being entirely lacking in imagination if she hasn't had any suspicion that she and others were duped.

j.rob wrote It seems to me there is a considerable amount of information available about the dynamic of the relationships between the McCanns and the various members of the Tapas group, Mirage.

We can take Rachel Oldfield out of the equation on the night in question because, being fearful of that lonely trek to the front of the apartment block and the need to navigate the dark scary parking area to listen at the 3 shuttered windows of the bedrooms where 6 of the children, including her own baby, were allegedly sleeping, her precious posterior remained firmly seated on a Tapas bar chair for the duration of the show.
Yes - these couples may well have felt a strong allegiance towards each other. And if it was felt that 'the disaster' that had befallen the McCanns and Madeleine was of the nature of a terrible, but unintended and unpremeditated, accident or medical mishap then you might begin to understand why a cover-up would ensue. To avoid the twins and/or other children being admitted to hospital, perhaps, and found to be sedated. Or possibly other incriminating evidence on the twins or other children.

As you say, if the friends believed this was 'the bigger picture' then they might be prepared to close ranks. Although it does make you wonder WHY they would go along with such an elaborate hoax with so much potential to backfire and one that it so very complicated. I guess they needed a scenario whereby Madeleine's body, either dead or alive, could not be examined. So abduction or kidnapping by a stranger was pretty much the only route to take. I suppose they could have just claimed that she 'disappeared' (a la Ben Needham) but I don't think that fitted the 'bigger agenda' for the McCanns.

There would have been less drama, less fan-fare, no obvious 'bogey man', probably not as much media coverage and no FUND. I still can't help thinking that they might have looked at the Ben Needham case and drawn some ideas from it - the 'sleepy' foreign police, the slowness of response, the gypsies and so on. A lot could be gleaned by looking at this case in terms of what can go wrong.

Who knows?

jeanmonroe wrote:IMO David and Fiona Payne are pivotal because.....
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IMO Jes Wilkins was 'pivotal' but

HE never got a mention on the TWO 'handwritten' timelines.

HE was TOLD the 'search' parties did NOT need his 'eyes and ears' help.

HE did NOTapproach the police, the very, very first thing, the morning after Madeleine went 'missing' and tell them EXACTLY where he was, chatting to the 'missing' child's father, at the EXACT time the child was 'supposedly' being 'abducted'

He DID have to duck under the police 'tape' with the pushchair to buy a pint of milk.

HE did NOT converse with or ask any Police person, as he passed them, first thing the next morning, and did not ask them if they had 'found' his tennis buddy's child.

jeanmonroe wrote:IMO David and Fiona Payne are pivotal because.....
------------------------------------------------------

IMO Jes Wilkins was 'pivotal' but

HE never got a mention on the TWO 'handwritten' timelines.

HE was TOLD the 'search' parties did NOT need his 'eyes and ears' help.

HE did NOTapproach the police, the very, very first thing, the morning after Madeleine went 'missing' and tell them EXACTLY where he was, chatting to the 'missing' child's father, at the EXACT time the child was 'supposedly' being 'abducted'

He DID have to duck under the police 'tape' with the pushchair to buy a pint of milk.

HE did NOT converse with or ask any Police person, as he passed them, first thing the next morning, and did not ask them if they had 'found' his tennis buddy's child.

jeanmonroe wrote:Yes agreed he did 'speak' to Police but only AFTER this:

The next morning, we made our way to breakfast and met one of the Doctors, the one who had come round in the night. His young daughter looked up at us from her pushchair.

We walked towards the kiddie club.

Locals and holidaymakers had started circulating photocopied pictures of Madeleine, while others continued searching the beaches and village apartments. People were talking about what had happened or sat silently, staring blankly. WE DIDN'T SEE ANY POLICE.

LATER, ( i believe it was 'pm' when the Police and Murat 'knocked on his door' NOT first thing when he got up in the morning), there was a knock 'on our apartment door' and we let the two men in. One was a uniformed Portuguese policeman, the other his translator.

BUT then again THIS by JW:
CARTAS ROGATORIAS 5
Pages 25 to 29

LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE SQUAD
WITNESS TESTIMONY OF JEREMY WILKINS
Date: 8 April 2008

ALMOST a FULL YEAR LATER.

The next morning, after having become aware of Madeleine’s disappearance, we went to breakfast and left the children in the club. Bridget and I returned to the apartment and minutes afterward, a uniformed police officer, accompanied by a British man serving as interpreter, showed up.

aquila wrote:Think about it, the whole of the holiday 'complex' and its staff are looking for a missing child. The place is swarming with police. The nannies have been up all night looking for her. You, as a holidaymaker have just heard a child went missing. You can't possibly have slept all night what with all the noise and fuss.

...and yet you place your child back into the care of the creche a few hours later.

Ladyinred wrote:

aquila wrote:Think about it, the whole of the holiday 'complex' and its staff are looking for a missing child. The place is swarming with police. The nannies have been up all night looking for her. You, as a holidaymaker have just heard a child went missing. You can't possibly have slept all night what with all the noise and fuss.

...and yet you place your child back into the care of the creche a few hours later.

Were the twins placed in the creche the next day too?