The Times - Delay

by PIForHire 10.07.13 23:06

Anyone got access to
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by maebee 11.07.13 0:14

You have to subscribe to read the full article. I could only get the first bit:

Britain has not yet requested Portuguese help in its new inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Scotland Yard said a week ago that it was beginning a ground-breaking investigation and would have a team of detectives based on the Algarve, from where Madeleine went missing while on holiday six years ago.

"Went missing" is a lot better than "abducted"

by Lance De Boils 11.07.13 9:16

I got the next bit:

Senior Metropolitan Police officers said they wanted to trace 38 potential suspects across five countries, had new lines of inquiry to pursue and new witness evidence to develop. Classifying the case as a criminal investigation, the Met said, would give its detectives “teeth” to interview witnesses and suspects, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by kitchen 11.07.13 9:19

I subscribe to the Times so for those who don't here is the full article ....

Britain has not yet requested Portuguese help in its new inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.[/size]
Scotland Yard said a week ago that it was beginning a ground-breaking investigation and would have a team of detectives based on the Algarve, from where Madeleine went missing while on holiday six years ago.
Senior Metropolitan Police officers said they wanted to trace 38 potential suspects across five countries, had new lines of inquiry to pursue and new witness evidence to develop. Classifying the case as a criminal investigation, the Met said, would give its detectives “teeth” to interview witnesses and suspects, search properties and other locations and, if necessary, make arrests.
But seven days later the international Letter of Request necessary to start the Europe-wide inquiry has not left London and the Portuguese authorities are said to be surprised by the lack of progress. The Crown Prosecution Service, which must deliver the letter to the Portuguese judicial authorities, said its officials were still drawing up the complex legal document.
Prosecutors are understood to have received very little notice of Scotland Yard’s decision last week to publicise its shift from a review of the case to a full investigation. International criminal investigations in Europe are governed by two treaties: the 1959 European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters, and the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between EU States of 2000.
The conventions set out the accepted procedures for exchange of legal papers, holding hearings by videolink, the operation of joint investigation teams and the control of undercover officers, phone taps and interception of e-mail and other communications.
Madeleine was almost four when she disappeared from her family’s holiday apartment in Praia de Luz in May 2007. She had been asleep in the apartment with her younger twin siblings while her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, dined with friends nearby.
The original Portuguese police inquiry was inconclusive and was shelved in 2008. It cannot be re-opened unless there is significant new evidence that reaches a threshold set down by Portuguese law.
David Cameron ordered the Met to review the case in 2011 and a team was set up to examine documents gathered by Portuguese police, British agencies and private detectives hired by the McCann family. The discovery of new leads during that review convinced the Met there was a chance of solving the case.
Andy Redwood, the Detective Chief Inspector who is leading the inquiry, Operation Grange, said last week: “It is a positive step in our hunt for Madeleine that our understanding of the evidence has enabled us to shift from review to investigation.”
Despite 16 visits by British detectives to Portugal in the past two years, Lisbon insisted that “the British authorities cannot act on their own in Portugal”.
The Attorney-General’s office added that British police “will not be able to direct any interrogation or effect any investigation, on their own account, in Portugal”.
A spokesman for the CPS said: “Any legal communication between different jurisdictions requires extremely careful correspondence, including appropriate translations. We are in liaison with the Portuguese authorities, and will send the formal Letter of Request as soon as possible.”

by Praiaaa 11.07.13 9:26

in the physical paper it is prominently on page 9 (right hand side, so catches the eye if you are flicking through, next to an article about Nigella divorce.
Annoying to see it as a large article in the 'news' section when it is just rehashed old spin.

by jeanmonroe 11.07.13 10:20

Thankyou for the article, Kitchen.

by sheila.edwards 11.07.13 13:06

yes thank you for posting. There is always big drama made of translating issues.We have big word to use for help you need simply,available on all phones! 24hrs day for yrs now!:spin:spin: : hospitals have used this interpretation service for yrs. sure its available to SY:spin:all drs would have been aware of simple interpretation services available to use, cant see what the problem was in Portugal and they had help of foreign office who surely would have had pin code to use on mobiles even for interpretation help to clarify points as needed without help of RM ! spin

by plebgate 11.07.13 17:32

Computers, telephones etc. all relaying info. instantly, so why would the police need to visit Portugal 16 times in 2 years?

What cost - air fares, hotels, food and drink?

by jd 11.07.13 17:34

The Crown Prosecution Service, which must deliver the letter to the Portuguese judicial authorities, said its officials were still drawing up the complex legal document

Just says it all!

by aiyoyo 11.07.13 17:48

Thanks Kitchen for posting that.

Scotland Yard said a week ago that it was beginning a ground-breaking investigation and would have a team of detectives based on the Algarve, from where Madeleine went missing while on holiday six years ago.
Senior Metropolitan Police officers said they wanted to trace 38 potential suspects across five countries, had new lines of inquiry to pursue and new witness evidence to develop. Classifying the case as a criminal investigation, the Met said, would give its detectives “teeth” to interview witnesses and suspects, search properties and other locations and, if necessary, make arrests.

Any one else noticed the biggest difference in that article? "38 potential suspects" ? Not what Redwood said - he said they are persons of interest.

According to this article it will be a full blown investigation with possibly more than 38 people under investigation if we were to take in the "38 suspects" (and not merely persons of interest), not forgetting also witnesses (no number given) that they want to interview.

The detectives are given "teeth" to search properties, locations, and make arrests across five countries - WOW! Just WOW!

For a change I believe they are serious about finding Madeleine and arresting her abductor.

Suddenly the MET seem over zealous in their new line of enquiry, new thinking, new eyes, new evidence, new approach, new everything. Maybe they even will come up with a new suspect to be arrested.

Interesting Time ahead....Ahoy! Maybe the ship is not sinking after all.

by aiyoyo 11.07.13 17:53

plebgate wrote:Computers, telephones etc. all relaying info. instantly, so why would the police need to visit Portugal 16 times in 2 years?

What cost - air fares, hotels, food and drink?

It's not the same by fax or email.

Face to face is better - it's a battle of who can stare down better to win the battle of will.

Maybe the MET believed they have managed to brow beat the Portuguese into a consensus - let's wait and see what pans out.

by Guest 11.07.13 18:53

It's not just a battle, Aiyoyo. It's about direct and human contact, to get to know each other, the relate face to face and see an immediate facial or bodily reaction to a raised subject, question, remark. It's about building confidence and understanding - invaluable elements for getting together for one goal ...

And I honestly don't understand [completely], why the financial aspect is being brought up every time and again. I calculated that the whole of Operation Grange is costing 12 pence per head. IMO absolute peanuts.

by **PeterMac** 11.07.13 18:58

What is a "potential suspect" ?
Potential : having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future
So these people have the capacity to develop into suspects ?
What will allow them to develop in that way, I wonder.
And why then is the number restricted to 38. Surely the entire population of the world has the capacity to develop into a suspect. All they have to do is behave in a a certain way, say certain things in relation to the case, act in a peculiar manner, limp, stoop, smell of garlic, develop their swarthyness, let their hair grow long and leave it lank and greasy, mumble . . (Oh, sorry, I was getting carried away.)
and 'Lo ! ' they have developed into a suspect.
They can then be arrested on suspicion and interviewed and eliminated.
For the Times this is an incredibly sloppy piece of writing.

And I am sorry, but the Met does NOT have a power of arrest outside England and Wales.

by aiyoyo 11.07.13 19:17

Utter rubbish then? From the Times? Incredible hey! Sub-standard journalism and getting away with it.

And the right to search properties and locations? What might the Police be looking for?

Body in the loft, bones on the wood burner, confiscation of urn, or an emaciated 10-year old child in the dungeon?

All these subterfuge reports do my head in.

by aiyoyo 11.07.13 19:24

Châtelaine wrote:It's not just a battle, Aiyoyo. It's about direct and human contact, to get to know each other, the relate face to face and see an immediate facial or bodily reaction to a raised subject, question, remark. It's about building confidence and understanding - invaluable elements for getting together for one goal ...

So true. 16 visits so far.

And I honestly don't understand [completely], why the financial aspect is being brought up every time and again. I calculated that the whole of Operation Grange is costing 12 pence per head. IMO absolute peanuts.

by margaret 11.07.13 22:29

aiyoyo wrote:Thanks Kitchen for posting that.

Scotland Yard said a week ago that it was beginning a ground-breaking investigation and would have a team of detectives based on the Algarve, from where Madeleine went missing while on holiday six years ago.
Senior Metropolitan Police officers said they wanted to trace 38 potential suspects across five countries, had new lines of inquiry to pursue and new witness evidence to develop.Classifying the case as a criminal investigation, the Met said, would give its detectives “teeth” to interview witnesses and suspects, search properties and other locations and, if necessary, make arrests.

Any one else noticed the biggest difference in that article? "38 potential suspects" ? Not what Redwood said - he said they are persons of interest.

According to this article it will be a full blown investigation with possibly more than 38 people under investigation if we were to take in the "38 suspects" (and not merely persons of interest), not forgetting also witnesses (no number given) that they want to interview.

The detectives are given "teeth" to search properties, locations, and make arrests across five countries - WOW! Just WOW!

For a change I believe they are serious about finding Madeleine and arresting her abductor.

Suddenly the MET seem over zealous in their new line of enquiry, new thinking, new eyes, new evidence, new approach, new everything. Maybe they even will come up with a new suspect to be arrested.

Interesting Time ahead....Ahoy! Maybe the ship is not sinking after all.

The interesting bit l noticed was that its a criminal investigation. Well if there's no evidence of abduction what crime has been committed?

Very Interesting... thinking

by **PeterMac** 11.07.13 22:54

aiyoyo wrote:16 visits so far.

It would be very interesting to study any correlation between the dates of the 16 visits, the number of people involved, and the seasons of the year.
A FOI request should do it.

Also the baggage carried on each occasion. Did it include golf clubs, for example.

by marconi 11.07.13 22:59

how do the mccanns manage to survive the Scotland Yard, internet and the press?

really strong people.

by lj 12.07.13 1:22

yeah, hard as nails

by jd 12.07.13 1:45

Helps when you have government backup in every way

by AndyB 12.07.13 7:39

"Prosecutors are understood to have received very little notice of Scotland Yard’s decision last week to publicise its shift from a review of the case to a full investigation."
What were they doing in Portugal in April then?

by Liz Eagles 12.07.13 7:42

AndyB wrote:"Prosecutors are understood to have received very little notice of Scotland Yard’s decision last week to publicise its shift from a review of the case to a full investigation."
What were they doing in Portugal in April then?

Swapping sea bass and sardine recipes?

by aiyoyo 12.07.13 9:25

PeterMac wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:16 visits so far.
It would be very interesting to study any correlation between the dates of the 16 visits, the number of people involved, and the seasons of the year.
A FOI request should do it.

Also the baggage carried on each occasion. Did it include golf clubs, for example.

It would be interesting to know whether the figure of 16 includes CPS visit? Or CPS visit/s on top of that.

How many visits did the CPS make and who in particular they met with. One supposes it must be to meet with equivalent judiciary counterparts; and that the meetings held in total secrecy (if not clandestinely) privileged only to a very selected few where confidentiality is observed to the hilt.

It might be possible that because of exceptional elements in this extremely high profile and sensitive case that the meetings between both side judiciariies officials was brokered at Governments level, and that info is strictly classified.

Depending what transpired at the meetings between two prosecution authorities the International Letter requesting Legal Assistance would have to be ironed out for mutual agreement and this needs time for the back and forth. That said, the CPS was there in April so I wont be surprised if the LOR was already given to the Portuguese, and plenty is happening quietly behind the scenes.

If there is strict secrecy code governing the mutual legal works then who's to quantify the accuracy of press reports.

P.S. I cant see the Top and Deputy CPS members brought their golf clubs. Tennis Rackets maybe, and I bet there were quite some ball batting and good relays back and forth.

by plebgate 12.07.13 10:42

AndyB wrote:"Prosecutors are understood to have received very little notice of Scotland Yard’s decision last week to publicise its shift from a review of the case to a full investigation."
What were they doing in Portugal in April then?

Yes that is a very valid question imo.

I would like to know how many police officers went on those 16 trips in 2 years. Did they stay in B & B or 3, 4 or 5 star accommodation. Taxpayers' money being spent but no info. being made available to the public about how the money is being used.

How much is all of this going to cost in total? As was reported last week on tv, all of this could take at least another 2 years. With video conferencing why do officers need to go to Portugal that many times - and goodness knows how many more trips in the future, and I think I read/heard last week that Mr. Redwood said there might not be a satisfactory conclusion to the case - if that is so the Portugese police would be proven to have been correct imo, so why the need for all this taxpayers' money being spent when apparently all the parents needed to do was write and ask for the investigation to be re-opened in Portugal.

Kerry Needham was, I believe, right to question why her son has not been treated the same. Mr. & Mrs. have a fund with plenty of money having been donated to search for Maddie - if they put the remaining money into the public pot, then surely that would free up a fair bit of public funding, which could then be used to help Kerry possibly find her son. If the police believe Maddie could still be alive, then the same must apply to Ben?

by Guest 12.07.13 14:55

With all due respect, and I've mentioned this before, such costs are IMO irrelevant in view of other police expenditure on other cases and certainly in relation to the total expenditure of U.K. taxpayers money.
FYI a *** hotel in Porto does in average € 100 p.p.p.d. and a roundtrip flight approx. the same [RyanAir, British Airways ...]. This will be more expensive during high season, but still this is peanuts in the bigger picture ...

by plebgate 12.07.13 21:55

Hi Chatelaine, you may have that view, but I have mine. I think I recall that you say you do not live in Britain, so you are not a taxpayer here presumably?

As to the cost of the hotels, we do not know what standard hotel the police stayed in, so your point is not really relevant at the mo. imo.

I do not feel the cost of this review/investigation is peanuts as a taxpayer and we certainly have not been told what the FINAL cost will be.

by Guest 12.07.13 22:46

plebgate wrote:Hi Chatelaine, you may have that view, but I have mine. I think I recall that you say you do not live in Britain, so you are not a taxpayer here presumably?

As to the cost of the hotels, we do not know what standard hotel the police stayed in, so your point is not really relevant at the mo. imo.

I do not feel the cost of this review/investigation is peanuts as a taxpayer and we certainly have not been told what the FINAL cost will be.

***
No, I'm not a UK taxpayer indeed, Plebgate [though I do pay a lot in France and it's spent in a way that surely doesn't serve me ...]. But you may remember that I calculated that all of the SY review has so far cost 12 pence per head there. That's why I keep coming back to the relativety of costs, every time they're mentioned. The debate sooner is: is it worthwhile? Worthwhile to solve this case? Is this case going to be solved? And then I must say: Yes, I do have faith in the investigation. And I do think it is worthwhile to spent the money. And, yes, I also think that the same effort and expenditure should go into every single case, where there's a child missing [or a husband or spouse]. Especially, when there's serious doubt as to what happened. And, you know, I've so far never seen a single mention of the costs of such inquiry. Only the number of people involved and the time they spent on the investigation. Never the costs ...

by **tigger** 13.07.13 6:58

How costs are calculated for e.g. the cost of sending soldiers over to Iraq or Afghanistan or even Northern Ireland is a mystery.

The figures always run to many millions yet the soldiers have to be paid anyway, do they get a lot extra for being on 'active'? Same with police, even if all the police working on operation Grange should be retired otherwise, they would get their pensions instead of their salary, not a saving of many millions for less than 40 people I'd think. Otherwise there are rules I understand and limits to spending when on trips.

I still think it's a waste of money - why first a review during which the active search for a girl who might be locked up in a cellar by a paedophile is suspended? (Doesn't worry me as I don't believe that's the case, but it's the 'likelyhood' put forward by the parents.)
The McCanns weren't doing anything other than running their website whilst the review was going on, so as not to interfere with the review. How can you interfere with a review? Break into Scotland Yard and steal their documents? There was no earthly reason to stop searching but even sightings only got lukewarm responses from TM.

To keep the public happy, a token search for Ben Needham, headlined for two days, to show equal dedication for 'others' produced nothing.

Now SY goes on 'active' and tell us they're working closely with the Portuguese for whom this is as much a surprise as it is for us.

Most of all, a Ltd. Co. which calls itself a Fund, which does not provide transparent accounts as pledged and is boldly asking us to press donate buttons of up to £ 100,00 on their infrequently updated website surely has enough money left to buy a stamp? Because a letter from the Drs. McCann to the Attorney General in Portugal is sufficient to re-open the investigation and I have no doubt that the PJ will work together with SY to solve the case. Which need not cost the British tax payer a penny.

by Guest 13.07.13 8:26

Thanks for posting kitchen.

Snipped from Times:

The original Portuguese police inquiry was inconclusive and was shelved in 2008. It cannot be re-opened unless there is significant new evidence that reaches a threshold set down by Portuguese law

Anyone know what the threshold is, or is it just that they need new evidence?

by aiyoyo 13.07.13 8:41

Cherry Blossom wrote:Thanks for posting kitchen.

Snipped from Times:

The original Portuguese police inquiry was inconclusive and was shelved in 2008. It cannot be re-opened unless there is significant new evidence that reaches a threshold set down by Portuguese law

Anyone know what the threshold is, or is it just that they need new evidence?

This case in specific, I guess it would have to be either a body or a confession that will meet the threshold.