interim report

by tiny 05.01.13 19:41

just been re reading [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The McCanns suggest someone to the police who might be able to find Madeleine’s corpse:

Despite everything, until a certain time in the investigation, the family fed and sustained the theory of an abduction. However, on a date on which we cannot be precise, it was suggested by the McCanns themselves that a person should be consulted who might be able to, eventually, indicate the probable location of Madeleine’s corpse.

This suggestion was inexplicable to members of the investigation team. Why were the family themselves raising the hypothesis that little Maddie was dead? Nevertheless, for the purposes of the media, they continued (and continue to this day) to declare their hope of finding their daughter alive.

So the mccanns DO say that Madeleine is dead or have i read it wrong.

by Guest 05.01.13 20:15

tiny wrote:just been re reading [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The McCanns suggest someone to the police who might be able to find Madeleine’s corpse:

Despite everything, until a certain time in the investigation, the family fed and sustained the theory of an abduction. However, on a date on which we cannot be precise, it was suggested by the McCanns themselves that a person should be consulted who might be able to, eventually, indicate the probable location of Madeleine’s corpse.

This suggestion was inexplicable to members of the investigation team. Why were the family themselves raising the hypothesis that little Maddie was dead? Nevertheless, for the purposes of the media, they continued (and continue to this day) to declare their hope of finding their daughter alive.

So the mccanns DO say that Madeleine is dead or have i read it wrong.

Wasn't this D Kruger with his machine, where he got some of Madeleine's hair?

SLEUTH: I CAN FIND MADDIE»

By Jonathan Corke
31st January 2010

A FORMER cop claims he has identified the area where he says Madeleine McCann is buried.

South African Danie Krugel says it is just 500 yards from the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal, from where Maddie disappeared. The area is a wasteland, full of building rubble, rocks and black, plastic bags. It is one of two “priority search” locations highlighted by the former detective – one close to the complex and one near the beach.

Krugel – known as “The Locator” for his success in tracing missing people in South Africa – was called in by Kate and Gerry McCann two months after Maddie vanished. He used DNA tracking – helped by a strand of Madeleine’s hair given to him by Gerry – and GPS satellite to pinpoint the area. He has also highlighted an area where he spotted a muddy pink and white child’s blanket.

Findings

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] because he didn’t want to interfere with the police investigation. He then drew a map and gave a detailed report of his findings to local police. But he says a full search for Madeleine, who vanished shortly before her fourth birthday on May 3, 2007, never took place. Krugel told the Daily Star Sunday: “If they want me to go with them I will. “

I’m convinced they will find her. I will do whatever I can to help. That area needs to be properly searched.

“If it means training up officers from Scotland Yard in how to use the technology, I will do that.

“There needs to be a proper team of experts.”

Kate and Gerry, both 41, of Rothley, Leics, are convinced Maddie was abducted and is still alive.

But Krugel said: “I believe the truth will come out and I pray for the family that they get their answers. There is somebody out there that is guilty.”

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McCanns accept Madeleine is probably dead

By Aislinn Simpson in Praia da Luz and Nick Britten

12:01AM BST 17 Oct 2007

Madeleine McCanns' anguished parents still pray their daughter may be found alive but now accept she is probably dead.

According to the couple's official spokesman, the balance of their feelings about what has happened to the four-year-old has tipped towards accepting the worst possible outcome, nearly six months after she vanished.

"Kate and Gerry are realistic enough to know that there is a probability she is dead," Clarence Mitchell said.

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by tiny 05.01.13 20:35

Thank you candyfloss, but this sentence==

This suggestion was inexplicable to members of the investigation team. Why were the family themselves raising the hypothesis that little Maddie was dead? Nevertheless, for the purposes of the media, they continued (and continue to this day) to declare their hope of finding their daughter alive.
makes me wonder how they are getting away with taking money for the fund when they know she is dead and they are only keeping the abduction going for the media.

by monkey mind 05.01.13 22:27

Good spot Tiny, doesn’t appear you have read it wrong.

I have to raise a monkey eyebrow. Is it just me or is it not bizarre that there appear to be two men, at different times, both from South Africa, both offer their services to the police and both claim to be in possession of machines that will locate the body of MM? Actually, both claim to know pretty well where she is. In the first instance it appears the McCanns themselves have put Krugel on to the police and in the second they seem reluctant to comment at all on Birch. I can’t help thinking the second is related to the first in some way or other, perhaps some message being conveyed. There has to be something here.

And as an aside, according to the above article Krugel primed his machine with one of Maddie’s hairs given to him by GM. If that’s true where did that hair magic from I have to ask? Not from 5A or a communal hairbrush one presumes....

by Liz Eagles 05.01.13 23:00

monkey mind wrote:Good spot Tiny, doesn’t appear you have read it wrong.

I have to raise a monkey eyebrow. Is it just me or is it not bizarre that there appear to be two men, at different times, both from South Africa, both offer their services to the police and both claim to be in possession of machines that will locate the body of MM? Actually, both claim to know pretty well where she is. In the first instance it appears the McCanns themselves have put Krugel on to the police and in the second they seem reluctant to comment at all on Birch. I can’t help thinking the second is related to the first in some way or other, perhaps some message being conveyed. There has to be something here.

And as an aside, according to the above article Krugel primed his machine with one of Maddie’s hairs given to him by GM. If that’s true where did that hair magic from I have to ask? Not from 5A or a communal hairbrush one presumes....

I'm off topic here but Monkey Mind has made some good points - please mods move this somewhere relevant.

Yes, where did that hair come from! I'm afraid Monkey Mind that were there 'magic machinery' it would hardly just be sitting in South Africa and not adopted/developed/utilised elsewhere in first world countries. Then again, the McCanns went to Washington USA and we were treated to a video of an FBI age progression photograph of Madeleine. Were UK police not capable of this technique? We're not a country with a police service of dozy plods - or are we when it suits TM? The forensic evidence was requested from the UK and the FSS was subsequently shut down. No request from TM to ask the USA for a second opinion on the forensic evidence? Leave no stone unturned remember. The Portuguese police are just allowed to be labelled a bunch of sardine munchers.

The McCanns used USA to promote things when it suited. The McCanns used the UK to promote things when it suited - oh my think of all that taxpayer money now on a review! The McCanns left Portugal when it suited. The McCanns used a South African chap (allegedly) with a magic machine.

Just my opinion.

by Ribisl 05.01.13 23:04

I thought Krugel's machine was supposed to 'locate' Madeleine, not a corpse. It was only when it detected a 'static signal' which was supposed to imply that she was most likely to be dead and buried in the area close to or on the Rocha Negra cliff that the Mccanns decided to distance themselves from Krugel and rubbish the whole idea.

by Ribisl 05.01.13 23:12

@aquila
According to KM, auntie Janet and her friend Amanda went to their house and got five head hairs from the inside of Madeleine's coat hood and a couple of eyelashes from her pillow, which they then couriered to South Africa.

by Liz Eagles 05.01.13 23:19

Ribisl wrote:@aquila
According to KM, auntie Janet and her friend Amanda went to their house and got five head hairs from the inside of Madeleine's coat hood and a couple of eyelashes from her pillow, which they then couriered to South Africa.

Do you have a link for that Ribisl?

by aiyoyo 05.01.13 23:19

aquila wrote:
monkey mind wrote:Good spot Tiny, doesn’t appear you have read it wrong.

I have to raise a monkey eyebrow. Is it just me or is it not bizarre that there appear to be two men, at different times, both from South Africa, both offer their services to the police and both claim to be in possession of machines that will locate the body of MM? Actually, both claim to know pretty well where she is. In the first instance it appears the McCanns themselves have put Krugel on to the police and in the second they seem reluctant to comment at all on Birch. I can’t help thinking the second is related to the first in some way or other, perhaps some message being conveyed. There has to be something here.

And as an aside, according to the above article Krugel primed his machine with one of Maddie’s hairs given to him by GM. If that’s true where did that hair magic from I have to ask? Not from 5A or a communal hairbrush one presumes....

I'm off topic here but Monkey Mind has made some good points - please mods move this somewhere relevant.

Yes, where did that hair come from! I'm afraid Monkey Mind that were there 'magic machinery' it would hardly just be sitting in South Africa and not adopted/developed/utilised elsewhere in first world countries. Then again, the McCanns went to Washington USA and we were treated to a video of an FBI age progression photograph of Madeleine. Were UK police not capable of this technique? We're not a country with a police service of dozy plods - or are we when it suits TM? The forensic evidence was requested from the UK and the FSS was subsequently shut down. No request from TM to ask the USA for a second opinion on the forensic evidence? Leave no stone unturned remember. The Portuguese police are just allowed to be labelled a bunch of sardine munchers.

The McCanns used USA to promote things when it suited. The McCanns used the UK to promote things when it suited - oh my think of all that taxpayer money now on a review! The McCanns left Portugal when it suited. The McCanns used a South African chap (allegedly) with a magic machine.

Just my opinion.

Two South Africans with "magic" machines, both searching for a "dead" Maddie......one at the behest of Mccanns ....hmmm....

by Ribisl 05.01.13 23:35

aquila wrote:
Ribisl wrote:@aquila
According to KM, auntie Janet and her friend Amanda went to their house and got five head hairs from the inside of Madeleine's coat hood and a couple of eyelashes from her pillow, which they then couriered to South Africa.

Do you have a link for that Ribisl?

Kate's book - Chapter 12. Not sure which page as mine is a kindle version.

by monkey mind 06.01.13 0:43

Ribisl wrote:@aquila
According to KM, auntie Janet and her friend Amanda went to their house and got five head hairs from the inside of Madeleine's coat hood and a couple of eyelashes from her pillow, which they then couriered to South Africa.

Thanks for that Ribisl.

Amazing isn’t it? I mean two untrained ladies conduct a search and find five hairs and two eyelashes, hey presto, just like that, yet an entire team of forensic detectives could find nothing in an apartment she had allegedly lived played and slept in for a week.

As for the eyelashes on the pillow, now that really does raise some interesting questions does it not? Do you still have the book to hand Ribisl? Do we have an indication when these two amateur sleuths conducted their search?

I’ll wager it was AFTER the British police officer searched that very same pillow specifically for samples of Madeleine’s DNA. Now he wouldn’t have missed those two eyelashes would he, particularly when all he could find was saliva....

by monkey mind 06.01.13 0:54

Of course the account in Kate’s book is totally contradicted by Krugel himself. He states he used the children’s hair brush which was given to him by Gerrry when he was in Portugal in July 2007. He even allegedly has the very same hair brush in this video at the 3.55 mark.....

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Someone’s not telling the truth.

Wonder who it might be?

by tiny 06.01.13 7:03

Ribisl wrote:@aquila
According to KM, auntie Janet and her friend Amanda went to their house and got five head hairs from the inside of Madeleine's coat hood and a couple of eyelashes from her pillow, which they then couriered to South Africa.

did the hairs come from the pillow that gerry got from rothley?

i am begining to think that Madeleine died a few days earlier than is stated, there seems to be a lack of quite a few things to do with Madeleine on that holiday if she was there for three or four days.

by Ribisl 06.01.13 7:15

monkey mind wrote:Of course the account in Kate’s book is totally contradicted by Krugel himself. He states he used the children’s hair brush which was given to him by Gerrry when he was in Portugal in July 2007. He even allegedly has the very same hair brush in this video at the 3.55 mark.....

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Someone’s not telling the truth.

Wonder who it might be?

Good morning, monkeymind.
In her book, Kate states 'in the second week of June'. Jane and Amanda are supposed have obtained these samples ('that could only be Madeleine's') from their house in Rothley, not from the apartment in PDL. There is no mention in her book about the hairbrush given to Krugel by Gerry though. So again, it appears we are finding some untruthfulness in the Mccanns' account if only by omission.

After a week or so of receiving said samples from Leicestershire, Krugel gets some signals relating to PDL in South Africa (!) and the Mccanns introduce the subject to Neves and Encarnaçao on 28th June, according to Kate.

by tiny 06.01.13 7:34

tiny wrote:
Ribisl wrote:@aquila
According to KM, auntie Janet and her friend Amanda went to their house and got five head hairs from the inside of Madeleine's coat hood and a couple of eyelashes from her pillow, which they then couriered to South Africa.

did the hairs come from the pillow that gerry got from rothley?

i am begining to think that Madeleine died a few days earlier than is stated, there seems to be a lack of quite a few things to do with Madeleine on that holiday if she was there for three or four days.

disregard this post as it is written that gerry came back to rothley for pictures of Madeleine and not a pillowcase,sorry as it seems the pj wanted the pillow case for dna

.blimey im confusing myself now[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by aiyoyo 06.01.13 7:52

monkey mind wrote:Of course the account in Kate’s book is totally contradicted by Krugel himself. He states he used the children’s hair brush which was given to him by Gerrry when he was in Portugal in July 2007. He even allegedly has the very same hair brush in this video at the 3.55 mark.....

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Someone’s not telling the truth.

Wonder who it might be?

Their story no matter which one never ever adds up.
If the samples for Krugel were taken from hairbrush in PDL then it does not explain why they'd to go home to get some for the Police.
If they'd to go home for that then it would definitely mean they already knew there wasn't going to be hair samples lying around the apt.
And how would they know that ? Only by wiping completely clean the apt would you know nothing is left or will be found even if you were to look.

by Liz Eagles 06.01.13 8:30

Ribisl wrote:
monkey mind wrote:Of course the account in Kate’s book is totally contradicted by Krugel himself. He states he used the children’s hair brush which was given to him by Gerrry when he was in Portugal in July 2007. He even allegedly has the very same hair brush in this video at the 3.55 mark.....

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Someone’s not telling the truth.

Wonder who it might be?
Good morning, monkeymind.
In her book, Kate states 'in the second week of June'. Jane and Amanda are supposed have obtained these samples ('that could only be Madeleine's') from their house in Rothley, not from the apartment in PDL. There is no mention in her book about the hairbrush given to Krugel by Gerry though. So again, it appears we are finding some untruthfulness in the Mccanns' account if only by omission.

After a week or so of receiving said samples from Leicestershire, Krugel gets some signals relating to PDL in South Africa (!) and the Mccanns introduce the subject to Neves and Encarnaçao on 28th June, according to Kate.

Good morning Ribisl,

I don't have Kate's book. Is it possible for you to copy and paste the relevant paragraph?

I'm confused as to why relatives would be assigned the task of retrieving dna samples from the house in Rothley. Wouldn't the UK police/forensic experts have had access to that house? If not, why not?...there's always a 'why' with this case.

by joyce1938 06.01.13 10:55

I have been under impression that gerry went back to get pillow and or caseto take back to pdl for definate sample of DNA? it was said to match the one that got to police in portugal ,felt to be the heel prick that was done on all newborns in england for years . i think it was on a cardand sent directly to port police for a match ,its odd that no one followed up exactly who requested or which person or hospital was responsable for getting it there.Both seemed to be needed to make sure it was mads. and not her sisters dna.why all this was needed if there was a hairbrush to take hairs from later ,the excuse was all used same brush for hair?so how one was taken to use for kugar machine and certain right hair was used is a mystery to me .joyce1938

by monkey mind 06.01.13 11:27

Ribisl, thanks again.

It seems the sample of saliva was retrieved from M’s pillow case at the house in Rothley. It is exhibit SJM/1. I’m still trying to identify exactly when that was recovered and by whom.

It would be natural to sieze the entire pillow case and allow the saliva to be lifted in the lab. Therefore, if that were the case, Auntie Sleuth and her side kick cannot have found two eyelashes on M’s pillow case as stated in K’s book, not unless she had two beds which is unlikely considering she didn’t even have her own hairbrush.

As for the communal hairbrush allegedly in Krugel’s possession in that video, he says it was given to him by G when he (Krugel) went to PDL in July 2007. It is worth noting that that particular video appears to be recent, it was uploaded to youtube in May 2012 and he mentions that the UK police are now involved so it was probably made in 2012.

by Ribisl 06.01.13 14:52

@aquilla

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Here is a link to the book in pdf format. You only need to click on the link to download it. It may take some time depending on your connection speed but once it opens on your browser you can then save it on your own PC.

by Tombraider 06.01.13 19:11

According to the forensic report No hair was recovered from the pillow-case – ref. SJM/1, or the hairbrush – ref. SJM/36.

by Inspectorfrost 13.01.13 14:32

monkey mind wrote:Ribisl, thanks again.

It seems the sample of saliva was retrieved from M’s pillow case at the house in Rothley. It is exhibit SJM/1. I’m still trying to identify exactly when that was recovered and by whom
.

This is from the Madeleine DNA section from mccannpjfiles.co.uk
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Seems SJM/1 was with the FSS at the time of Gerrys first visit back to the UK on 21/22 May 07

Full page here regarding the sample.
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by joyce1938 13.01.13 15:19

hallo has anyone here got any info . on the heel prick bloodthat is taken from newborns in hospital ? i seem hardly ever to be replied to on here it seems .the pillow case one was needed to compare the 2 ,does anyone else remember that ?joyce1938

by Inspectorfrost 13.01.13 15:56

joyce1938 wrote:hallo has anyone here got any info . on the heel prick bloodthat is taken from newborns in hospital ? i seem hardly ever to be replied to on here it seems .the pillow case one was needed to compare the 2 ,does anyone else remember that ?joyce1938

It doesn't say anywhere that the blood in a cardboard frame received by the FSS was actually from a heel prick test. I think many people assume that is what it could be. This blood reference sample was received by the FSS in October 07 according to the files, unless its a typo/mistake. I dont know who supplied it and from where, it doesnt say.

In any case, the control dna profile used seems to be the one taken from the pillowcase which makes sense as it was confirmed to be Madeleine's (as it was from a female child of the Mccanns and not Amelie's). And the dna profile from the blood did match that from the pillowcase.

Hope that makes sense.

by Woofer 13.01.13 16:49

joyce1938 wrote:hallo has anyone here got any info . on the heel prick bloodthat is taken from newborns in hospital ? i seem hardly ever to be replied to on here it seems .the pillow case one was needed to compare the 2 ,does anyone else remember that ?joyce1938

Hello Joyce - InspectorFrost could be right - it was only assumed that it could have been a heel stick blood sample from birth. It would be difficult to obtain such a sample anyway, hospitals are not supposed to store them and a court order would be needed to get it if they had stored it. There was a hoo-ha in the press a couple of years ago because it was discovered that some hospitals had stored these samples, here`s an article :-

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It should be made clear to all parents to allow the testing for diseases but they should insist on retaining the blood sample themselves so the hospital don`t get to keep it.

by Tombraider 15.01.13 12:58

Inspectorfrost wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:hallo has anyone here got any info . on the heel prick bloodthat is taken from newborns in hospital ? i seem hardly ever to be replied to on here it seems .the pillow case one was needed to compare the 2 ,does anyone else remember that ?joyce1938

It doesn't say anywhere that the blood in a cardboard frame received by the FSS was actually from a heel prick test. I think many people assume that is what it could be. This blood reference sample was received by the FSS in October 07 according to the files, unless its a typo/mistake. I dont know who supplied it and from where, it doesnt say.

In any case, the control dna profile used seems to be the one taken from the pillowcase which makes sense as it was confirmed to be Madeleine's (as it was from a female child of the Mccanns and not Amelie's). And the dna profile from the blood did match that from the pillowcase.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes you are right Inspectorfrost, there is nothing in the files which confirms what the blood sample actually was. Also, the blood sample didn't materialise until after the forensic tests and reports were concluded.

It's not very clear from the report, unless I'm mistaken, whether the pillow case sample was in fact used as a control sample to compare against the samples found, I think we all just assume it was.

by joyce1938 15.01.13 14:44

thank you both for reply today,i can see what you are saying ,its a memory that seems to have stayed in mind ,as some do when we are all discussing .It could have been in goncola amarals book i will try to find it ,if poss. \I think a few of us at time felt was their proof of heel prick ?yes it was mr amaral that talked about it and he seemed to be satisfied that it was that possably ,will have a look and see what else i find .joyce1938

by joyce1938 15.01.13 15:49

Hallo again ,as promised i have tried to look for more on the blood sample andi looked on this site and looked for the site on Forensics and DNA. there is quite a bit to read and is interesting to do so ,it just reminds me of a few bits we dont keep in mind for long ,i hope this helps a bit ,i still havent got onto The Truth of the lie yet ,by goncola amarel.i do recall he spoke of the blood sample that had been sent fro leic. police .joyce1938