Forensic linguistics -

Miraflores wrote:I would caution here that a statement analysis by an American would not necessary yield the same results as that analysed by someone who was used to British English - which in GM's case would need to include Glaswegian idioms and expressions. E.g. Americans almost invariably talk about going 'to the hospital' when most UK speakers would say they went to hospital, and only use 'the' when they are talking about a specific hospital. Or a Scottish example: the Scots talk about where they stay, the English about where they live.

Hi Miraflores.

Statement analysis in any language yields the same results.
The only time we have to be careful is when it is translated from the original language into a second language ie. portuguese into english since we are in effect analysing the interpretator and their translation rather than the original language.
Translations  are not a literal translation rather they are as close as can be expected based on the expertise of the translator.

Even in translations the principals remain the same, we look for pronouns which are instinctive in any language and the first thing we learn as a baby, i, me, mine etc.
We look for where they appear in a statement and where they don't, articles are also pretty much the same in any language so we look for where they are, where they aren't and if the use is appropriate ie,  i saw a car, The car was speeding. Here we see the article A is used in relation to the car as it is introduced by the subject, thereafter it becomes THE car as it has been introduced and we know what they are referring to. I saw a man, the man crossed the road. If more men arrive we see  introductions such as another man ( if not known to the subject or a name if known) and then if further men arrive we would often hear them introduced  by a description ( a blonde haired man, a short an) to enable us to differentiate between them,

We learn the subjects personal dictionary, how they speak, their baseline so to speak, their idioms  i seen instead of i saw for instance) Once we listen and learn what is their normal we look and listen for when it changes, when pronouns appear or disappear, if they change from i seen to i saw. Aything different to their usual is noted and further questions can be asked for clarification.

This is important  when we see pronouns  vanish ( they aren't taking ownership of their statement) when there are temporal lacuna ( gaps in time) when they change how they refer to something ( a change in language is a change in reality ie. i was in the lounge with my wife and daughter. My wife left to go shopping, the girl was drawing.  my wife came home from shopping and my daughter was crying. In this case he goes from daughter to girl back to daughter. She is daughter when his wife was home and girl when his wife was away.  Whilst his wife was away he sexually abused his daughter. Since this is such a heinous crime and lying is stressful, he raped a girl (distancing) rather than his daughter (close)

The more statements we get from a subject the better it is for us to come to a conclusion of truth or deception.
In some cases a single sentence can be enough to reveal the truth or the deception, more often though we can't come to a definite conclusion, we have an idea but not enough to say they are definitely being truthful or they are definitely lying, we ask for more statements to enable us to come to a conclusion.

Terri horman has said very little thanks to her lawyer, we see deception in what she has said, we can't though for definite say she was involved and did the crime, she could have guilty knowledge of who really did it.
The mccanns however have provided us with a wealth of statements, from the rogs to interviews to press conferences, to their mockumentary to kate's book ( her lawyer must have been spitting nails when they learned she had done a book since it pins her down to a specific story and timeline which can be compared with her rogs etc. Not a smart move)

I have never been convinced by the theory that all the children were in one apartment.  Who would volunteer to look after 6 small children, including babies with diarrhea?  Even new men would flinch at that task.  

As for the bathing? Who knows, it may be that if they were all socialising in one apartment, to save time they may have stuck all the kids in the bath together - which the kids would of course love.  If they were crying when they were being bathed they might have wanted mummy or daddy?

It may have been a freudian slip, imo, Kate is not a very hands on mother, and I suspect she and her macho husband were probably happy to hand the bathing over to whoever volunteered.  

The most likely explanation however, imo, is that given the half ass parenting skills and sheer ignorance of Kate and Gerry, they may well have left the tots on their own in the bath whilst they shared a glass of New Zealand vino oblivious to the cries of the kids coming from the bathroom.  Kate is possibly the only mother in history who is able to take a shower and leave 3 toddlers on their own reading books in an unfamiliar apartment - I couldn't even escape for a 'quick' trip to the bathroom when I only had one toddler to look after!

Could it be that when Payne paid his visit to Kate in her towel for 30 seconds/30 minutes he was going round to bathe the children? Just a question.

Dee Coy wrote:Could it be that when Payne paid his visit to Kate in her towel for 30 seconds/30 minutes he was going round to bathe the children? Just a question.

I don't believe he went there at all. According to Dianne Webster's first statement, he went back to their flat and bathed their children with DW. Fiona Payne was the one who was unaccounted for, according to her own mother.

Cristobell wrote:I have never been convinced by the theory that all the children were in one apartment.  Who would volunteer to look after 6 small children, including babies with diarrhea?  Even new men would flinch at that task.  

As for the bathing? Who knows, it may be that if they were all socialising in one apartment, to save time they may have stuck all the kids in the bath together - which the kids would of course love.  If they were crying when they were being bathed they might have wanted mummy or daddy?

It may have been a freudian slip, imo, Kate is not a very hands on mother, and I suspect she and her macho husband were probably happy to hand the bathing over to whoever volunteered.  

The most likely explanation however, imo, is that given the half ass parenting skills and sheer ignorance of Kate and Gerry, they may well have left the tots on their own in the bath whilst they shared a glass of New Zealand vino oblivious to the cries of the kids coming from the bathroom.  Kate is possibly the only mother in history who is able to take a shower and leave 3 toddlers on their own reading books in an unfamiliar apartment - I couldn't even escape for a 'quick' trip to the bathroom when I only had one toddler to look after!

I'm agnostic on this but I don't for one moment believe that these well heeled professionals didn't have mobile phones with them at all times.  So hypothetically it would be a case of you taking your turn to babysit and if a child got upset during the night you would call the parents. 

However, I agree with you entirely about the parenting skills on display. My recollection of looking after under 4s was you couldn't leave them unsupervised for a moment. The noise masking from a shower would mean you were leaving awake 3 and unders completely unsupervised for however long you shower (let's say 10 minutes). They could be rifling through your medicines, seeing how the kettles works, choking on their biscuit, discovering the bottle of bleach...anything.

     Please.

There are topics on the children being in one apartment. As from Hobs' last post this has nothing to do with forensic linguistics.

This one for instance:

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I am afraid I am still not entirely convinced that an American could successfully analyse a Glaswegian or Liverpudlian's speech patterns. Both have idiomatic expressions which are not always understood by others in the UK, let alone elsewhere.

Miraflores wrote:I am afraid I am still not entirely convinced that an American could successfully analyse a Glaswegian or Liverpudlian's speech patterns. * Both have idiomatic expressions which are not always understood by others in the UK, let alone elsewhere.

* Nor yet their vocabulary, nor their mangling of Standard Grammar.

PeterMac wrote:

Miraflores wrote:I am afraid I am still not entirely convinced that an American could successfully analyse a Glaswegian or Liverpudlian's speech patterns. *  Both have idiomatic expressions which are not always understood by others in the UK, let alone elsewhere.

* Nor yet their vocabulary, nor their mangling of Standard Grammar.

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For you PM:   

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I don't remember seeing this interview before.


I find there answer to 'what the twins have been told' very interesting. Gerry says 'the twins believe...' about 2.30 onwards, with lots of suppressed face touching from Gerry.

Hobs, are you out there please?

On the night MM went missing a neighbour upstairs heard a lady (KM) screaming and leant over the balcony to enquire what was the matter.

Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

Bellajoy wrote:On the night MM went missing a neighbour upstairs heard a lady (KM) screaming and leant over the balcony to enquire what was the matter.

Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

Bellajoy, they talk about 'a child' in the video link I posted just before your post, too!

Bellajoy wrote:Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

YES it would. Very much.

Bellajoy wrote:On the night MM went missing a neighbour upstairs heard a lady (KM) screaming and leant over the balcony to enquire what was the matter.

Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

Why didn,t he ask the neighbour if she had seen his daughter or seen anything?

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(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

Cristobell wrote:I have never been convinced by the theory that all the children were in one apartment.  Who would volunteer to look after 6 small children, including babies with diarrhea?  Even new men would flinch at that task.  

As for the bathing? Who knows, it may be that if they were all socialising in one apartment, to save time they may have stuck all the kids in the bath together - which the kids would of course love.  If they were crying when they were being bathed they might have wanted mummy or daddy?

It may have been a freudian slip, imo, Kate is not a very hands on mother, and I suspect she and her macho husband were probably happy to hand the bathing over to whoever volunteered.  

The most likely explanation however, imo, is that given the half ass parenting skills and sheer ignorance of Kate and Gerry, they may well have left the tots on their own in the bath whilst they shared a glass of New Zealand vino oblivious to the cries of the kids coming from the bathroom.  Kate is possibly the only mother in history who is able to take a shower and leave 3 toddlers on their own reading books in an unfamiliar apartment - I couldn't even escape for a 'quick' trip to the bathroom when I only had one toddler to look after!

The apartments had showers, but nowhere it is apparent that they had bathrooms, with baths in them

So when they 'bathed' the children, how did they do that?

Portia wrote:
The apartments had showers, but nowhere it is apparent that they had bathrooms, with baths in them

So when they 'bathed' the children, how did they do that?

Bath in Apartment 5a.

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This from the final prosecution speech in the RH trial, cording to the Mail

During the trial, Harris had claimed he had not been to Cambridge - the city where one of his alleged assaults took place during the filming of a celebrity game show, originally believed to be It's A Celebrity Knock Out - until four years ago.
However, footage later emerged of the star taking part in the similar programme Star Games.
The prosecutor said Harris had tried several different excuses for why he had claimed he had not been there, but told the jury: 'Such detailed excuses are often the stuff of lies and that is what this late, but invaluable emergence of the television recording has cemented into place for us that Mr Harris is a determined, purposeful, liar.

Where else have we come across Detailed excuses, sometimes two or three totally different Detailed excuses.

Entered by the front door - USING HIS KEY - too much information, and had to admit it was a lie later.
Curtains wide open - and then had to admit this was a lie later and change it to an elaborate description of their being tight closed, and whooshing
and so on

we might almost want to add "and that is what this late, but invaluable emergence of the PJ photo of the scene has cemented into place for us that * * * *  is a determined, purposeful, liar.

missbeetle wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

I've heard this phrase in TV series such as ER, meaning resuscitation is stopped.
I've been told it's not used in the UK, but still.

ETA:  could we keep the bath and so on out of linguistics?  This is a much visited topic and handy to find the odd slip.
So please  

'Let her down' by no means refers to stopping resuscitation in the UK e.g. a good number of years ago when a cousin got pregnant out of wedlock, another family member opined that 'she had let her mother down' - that is not behaved in the correct manner.

"I've let you down" can also mean, I've disappointed you in some way. Or you expected me to do something, and I didn't do it.

worriedmum wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I don't remember seeing this interview before.


I find there answer to 'what the twins have been told' very interesting. Gerry says 'the twins believe...' about 2.30 onwards, with lots of suppressed face touching from Gerry.

Hobs, are you out there please?

Ain't seen that one either. IMO at the start, they are speaking as you would do after a sudden or unexpected death 

Miraflores wrote:'Let her down' by no means refers to stopping resuscitation in the UK e.g. a good number of years ago when a cousin got pregnant out of wedlock, another family member opined that 'she had let her mother down' - that is not behaved in the correct manner.

I know, but we were trying to relate it to a child of 4 and the term implies an expectation on her part of certain behaviour and duties of her her parents of which she would not be aware at that age. Imo.

So relating it to an accident or medical situation seems more logical imo. Let them down, let them go are terms I've heard used in several medical series.

Kate's father allegedly saying the same in relation to Kate doesn't make sense either, how could it be her parents' fault?

But Kate usually sees things back to front as is evident from the way she talks about Maddie, as if she was a grown up and had to help and protect Kate.

Kate's parents hadn't let her down, she had let them down.

I have never heard "let them down" in a medical setting ever. It is not an expression used in English resuss.
On the other hand "let them go" "she's gone" etc does refer to death and dying. 

"to put down" is used in veterinary for euthanasia.

Letting someone down usually refers to admitting a failure on your part where you do not fulfill your responsibilities to that person.

In translation to other cultures/languages these phrases often don't work.
I tried explaining about having a dog put down to an Italian the other day who initially thought I had buried it alive.

dantezebu wrote:I have never heard "let them down" in a medical setting ever. It is not an expression used in English resuss.
On the other hand "let them go" "she's gone" etc does refer to death and dying. 

"to put down" is used in veterinary for euthanasia.

Letting someone down usually refers to admitting a failure on your part where you do not fulfill your responsibilities to that person.

In translation to other cultures/languages these phrases often don't work.
I tried explaining about having a dog put down to an Italian the other day who initially thought I had buried it alive.

You  will see I referred to  US usage as to the possible medical connection.

I still think the term in connection with a toddler, - as I have explained above-  makes no sense.
The example given by Miraflores  works for me as the expectation of NOT bring let down is between adults, which does not apply with a dependent child.

i am aware of  terms  such as 'put down' etc. translation in any language would present difficulties but I fail to see how that is relevant here unless you  think my nationality  and consequent  inability to grasp the finer nuances of the English language  is a factor here.

tigger wrote:

dantezebu wrote:I have never heard "let them down" in a medical setting ever. It is not an expression used in English resuss.
On the other hand "let them go" "she's gone" etc does refer to death and dying. 

"to put down" is used in veterinary for euthanasia.

Letting someone down usually refers to admitting a failure on your part where you do not fulfill your responsibilities to that person.

In translation to other cultures/languages these phrases often don't work.
I tried explaining about having a dog put down to an Italian the other day who initially thought I had buried it alive.

You  will see I referred to  US usage as to the possible medical connection.

I still think the term in connection with a toddler, - as I have explained above-  makes no sense.
The example given by Miraflores  works for me as the expectation of NOT bring let down is between adults, which does not apply with a dependent child.

i am aware of  terms  such as 'put down' etc. translation in any language would present difficulties but I fail to see how that is relevant here unless you  think my nationality  and consequent  inability to grasp the finer nuances of the English language  is a factor here.

Not at all tigger I am sure your English is as good as mine. But it does happen in some cases. Especially when a phrase can mean something else completely in another language. 
As regards Mr Healy using the phrase, I am thinking that Mr Healy as many parents do he feels a life-long responsibility to his children. 
Especially if they knew there was a problem and didn't feel as though he acted in a way to prevent a disaster.
If Mr Healy knew KM was having difficulties coping with 3 young babies and didn't step in to help her, or take appropriate action he may well feel he had let her and Madeleine down.

ETA it may well be a common phrase in the Healy household.

missbeetle wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

You wonder if the "you" in Kate's father's "I've let you down" is Kate or Madeleine.

missbeetle wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

Regarding the Daily Mail interview...how does Kate McC then explain the evidence of one of the Tapas 9 women (I think it was Rachael Oldfield) who claimed that Kate McCann, on the night of the abduction, explained to her (at the Tapas restaurant) her concern that she might be doing the wrong thing in leaving the children alone after the "crying" episode. Someone might have the link to that Rogatory interview to hand.  If so, it shows that this is not a truthful account, since she clearly did have concerns about not being able to ensure the welfare of her children in such circumstances.

Okeydokey wrote:

missbeetle wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

Regarding the Daily Mail interview...how does Kate McC then explain the evidence of one of the Tapas 9 women (I think it was Rachael Oldfield) who claimed that Kate McCann, on the night of the abduction, explained to her (at the Tapas restaurant) her concern that she might be doing the wrong thing in leaving the children alone after the "crying" episode. Someone might have the link to that Rogatory interview to hand.  If so, it shows that this is not a truthful account, since she clearly did have concerns about not being able to ensure the welfare of her children in such circumstances.

I think it was in the rogatory of Fiona Payne.

lj wrote:

missbeetle wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

You wonder if the "you" in Kate's father's "I've let you down" is Kate or Madeleine.

Good point   

If Kate's father was the only one who was upset and truly grieving for Madeleine maybe Kate latched onto that phrase to give her story depth and emotion.

I'm not convinced that Kate and Gerry wasted even a nanosecond thinking about Madeleine - they were too busy trying to save their own scrawny necks.