Forensic linguistics -

alfie02 wrote:

Nina wrote:

alfie02 wrote:

Nina wrote:And a retrieval from the bottom of a murky lake, why would that clear the McCanns?

I think they will be hoping that if Madeleinne was found, there would be nothing to link them to whatever forensics are on her body, by way of abuse as she has been gone for nearly 5 years, so will be virtually nothing to stipulate the cause of death x

Hello alfie02, I suppose by this time then they will be hoping there is no forensic evidence to link to them wherever her body might be found.
They just didn't show any sorrow at the prospect of her body laying at the bottom of a murky lake.

Ys thats what i meant. There maybe no fibres etc left to link them to her unless she is "buried" with the missing blanket[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Nina
One detail in the link re the Arade dam says they retrieved a long rope with which Maddie had been bound.
If I got that news even twenty years later, I'd still be hysterical with renewed grief , evidence of the suffering of my little girl - the rope they bound her with - I could not contemplate the horror of it. Cyborgs don't have these problems.

I always find the statement analysis blog very interesting and thought this little test is quite pertinent to the McCann's and which side they fit into.....

Would amend the polygraph test to:
Innocent parents take and pass polygraphs
Guilty parents don't take or fail polygraphs

I'm sure there are many more that could be added..
-----------------

Innocent parents react one way; guilty parents react another. 


Cindy Anthony Objection:  "There's no book on grieving" or "there's no book on how to react to a missing child."


Answer:  yes, there is. 


Now 


It's thousands and thousands of pages long and it is written in the hearts of investigators everywhere, and in studies of criminal psychologists, and in academies of law enforcement in our country and internationally.  It comes down to this:


Innocent parents help.                               Guilty parents hinder. 
Innocent  parents talk.                               Guilty parents say little.
Innocent parents are desperate.               Guilty parents keep things close to the vest.
Innocent parents pass polygraphs.           Guilty parents fail them. 
Innocent parents search.                            Guilty parents complain. 
Innocent parents interview.                      Guilty parents lawyer up. 


Innocent parents care nothing but for finding the missing child; guilty parents are concerned about their reputations and public perception.

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I've been looking for this and found the quote - but don't have a page number. However:


".... is this what my life would be from now on? I could never be joyful again in public without guilt overwhelming me"
Unquote.

Now why does guilt only overwhelm you when you are joyful in public and it doesn't bother you presumably in private?
Why does it matter where you are as to how you feel about your daughters' disappearance?
Please don't start your reply with 'To be honest...'

Stewie wrote:I always find the statement analysis blog very interesting and thought this little test is quite pertinent to the McCann's and which side they fit into.....

Would amend the polygraph test to:
Innocent parents take and pass polygraphs
Guilty parents don't take or fail polygraphs

I'm sure there are many more that could be added..
-----------------

Innocent parents react one way; guilty parents react another. 


Cindy Anthony Objection:  "There's no book on grieving" or "there's no book on how to react to a missing child."


Answer:  yes, there is. 


Now 


It's thousands and thousands of pages long and it is written in the hearts of investigators everywhere, and in studies of criminal psychologists, and in academies of law enforcement in our country and internationally.  It comes down to this:


Innocent parents help.                               Guilty parents hinder. 
Innocent  parents talk.                               Guilty parents say little.
Innocent parents are desperate.               Guilty parents keep things close to the vest.
Innocent parents pass polygraphs.           Guilty parents fail them. 
Innocent parents search.                            Guilty parents complain. 
Innocent parents interview.                      Guilty parents lawyer up. 


Innocent parents care nothing but for finding the missing child; guilty parents are concerned about their reputations and public perception.

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especially when said parents are not suspects but lawyer up from day one

I can't find this item on this topic - if I have already posted it - apologies. Just trying to keep a lot of similar information in one place!


Gerry being heard as an arguido on september 7th 2007:

Blood was mentioned. The defence lawyer reacting to this, i.e. Gerry's lawyer, tried to explain it away. To no avail:

The defence lawyer said that he wishes the arguido to be asked again if Madeleine bled. To which he said it was common for
Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn’t know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal, because he
does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.

Bleeding occurred: before May 3rd.
Press comments: after May 3rd.

How could Gerry's observing his daughters bleeding BEFORE may 3rd have been compromised by the media attention AFTER May 3rd??


So to recap: it depends on what appears in the Press whether Gerry will be able to remember it or not?

The important thing, at this time, is that we don`t have Madeleine and, err... that`s the only, err ... result that`ll clearly make Kate and I happy, and the rest of the family.

(BBC World Service 19 June 2007)

So says Gerry, but does he realise what he`s just said ?

jmac wrote:The important thing, at this time, is that we don`t have Madeleine and, err... that`s the only, err ... result that`ll clearly make Kate and I happy, and the rest of the family.

(BBC World Service 19 June 2007)

So says Gerry, but does he realise what he`s just said ?

Didn't read the whole thread but when I read this, I had to add:

Gerry: "We think that if M been taken or killed , there would have been evidence" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

What a nutter

jmac wrote:The important thing, at this time, is that we don`t have Madeleine and, err... that`s the only, err ... result that`ll clearly make Kate and I happy, and the rest of the family.

(BBC World Service 19 June 2007)

So says Gerry, but does he realise what he`s just said ?

They do seem to have trouble defining the importance of finding Madeleine, there are so many examples here of : e.g.
our ultimate goal to find M.
finding Madeleine would be one of a number of possible significant developments. (Not THE ONLY significant development).

I just came across another nugget by Payne in the RI.
Considering that the body was likely kept in a fridge or freezer and the repair that had to be done in 5a was to the washing machine - is Payne once again battling his leaking memory ? He gets the blinds right but not the washing machine.

quote:
1485 "Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply "Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
1485 "Mm.”
unquote

tigger wrote:I just came across another nugget by Payne in the RI.
Considering that the body was likely kept in a fridge or freezer and the repair that had to be done in 5a was to the washing machine - is Payne once again battling his leaking memory ? He gets the blinds right but not the washing machine.

quote:
1485 "Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply "Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
1485 "Mm.”
unquote

Tigger I've just seen this, from the thread, the Fridge, on Missing Madeleine site, if I may mention. Apparently the ref web site has also been whooshed, but I'm sure someone here will have the Payne rogatory interviews, and if not, then at least the Portuguese police should have them. Anyway it's a second reference to the fridge which many of us are certain we read before they were disappeared.


"Paul Rees
Remember on Gerry McCann's blog where he wrote he disposed of a broken fridge at a dump, then replaced it?
It was seen as dead suss at the time as it would be the villa owner's
responsibility then he deleted all mention of it from his blog and his
supporters denied all knowledge of a broken fridge.
As luck would
have it, I was perusing the police files yesterday and it's mentioned
by David Payne, proving its existence, so I hope the Met are exploring
what happened to it.
"Err the, I know that, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with the fridge in their flat" #mccann - Dr Payne
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://​www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/​DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Yesterday at 3:14am ·

So......why would the McCanns need to dispose of a Fridge?" [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

We have to be very careful about internet myths.
The McCanns had a [reported] problem with the washing machine and a [proven] mechanic to fix it in 5A.
Gerry replacing a fridge/freezer from the villa, after being ousted from the OC, has been reported by many, but cannot be documented [anymore].

Châtelaine wrote:We have to be very careful about internet myths.
The McCanns had a [reported] problem with the washing machine and a [proven] mechanic to fix it in 5A.
Gerry replacing a fridge/freezer from the villa, after being ousted from the OC, has been reported by many, but cannot be documented [anymore].

I appreciate that but has anyone got the full David Payne interviews stored. I have been through what I can find, a long winded job.

If anyone can locate the quoted ref in the previous post then it will be helpful.

The maintenance man visited Kate to show her how to use the washing machine, i.e. he did not fix an actual fault with it. The repair during the visit was carried out to one of the window blinds which Kate said Gerry broke.

sami wrote:The maintenance man visited Kate to show her how to use the washing machine, i.e. he did not fix an actual fault with it. The repair during the visit was carried out to one of the window blinds which Kate said Gerry broke.

He said he was asked how to show kate mccann how to use the washing machine, which I find odd as a washing machine is a washing machine whatever country you are in. The shutters they fixed (I think) from the statement was not Maddies bedroom, but the one on the other side of the apartment. Probably the patio door side

Bobbin wrote:

So......why would the McCanns need to dispose of a Fridge?"

unquote

mccannfiles.com have the full RIs.

Imo they didn't. The mention of the fridge may have been for a third party to say that the body had been moved from the fridge to another location.
Remember the towel etc. found in the barn some 28 km from PdL? There was a phone call between ROB and Gerry around the 9th/10th June.
If we could correlate the time when the fridge message appeared it might make more sense.
My point is simply that it was a message.

Or rather worse: the fridge going to the dump might mean the contents of the fridge being buried. Something like that.
They could not have communicated much except in open spaces, I'm sure they would wonder if the house was bugged, and their phone calls were monitored.
Perhaps they didn't want to be seen with one or two of the Tapas friends, because these don't seen to be much in evidence, whereas Jon Corner, Michael Wright et al are all over the place.
Wonder if the lack of visits by the T7 is evident in the book?

I quoted the Payne RI bit about a fridge, because Payne is exceptionally bad at lying - therefore his mention of a fridge instead of a washing machine is meaningful imo. He may well have known that the body was stored in a fridge.

Thanks tigger, I think your suggestions re 'codes' in the open, are valid. But to be sure, by elimination, I suppose the other angle to come from, would be to look at the other 'memories' that we have.

Did the owner of the apartment/fridge not say at some time that he was surprised the fridge had been changed, something like it was quite new and the occupants hadn't reported it as failing. Has he been interviewed to say whether he thought the fridge in his apartment was a new replacement and not the same make as he had installed.

Did the PJ find any local fridge suppliers who had sold one. Were the bank statements/credit cards looked at by the PJ.

As Amaral spoke of 'thawed' tissue found in the boot, it must have been 'cooled' somewhat before transport in car.

I agree the dates of phone pings at towel incident, McCann's blog references to fridge, need to be correlated.

We know that we read the 'fridge' references. They happened at an early enough time for us not to have been streetwise enough to start capturing information in the event that it would be 'cleansed'.

As you so rightly say. Payne is remarkably bad at lying. First, who put the bus video, telling of Gerry's bad temper, on the web. Second, who blabbed about a tennis bag not being big enough to hide...er...a tennis raquet, thirdly, who has once at least in his rogatories talked of a fridge, (evidence of reference found) and possibly in rogatory, but which I have not yet found, a second reference to 'fridge'.

Whether it was a cryptic reference to a fridge or not, Amaral found evidence of 'previous freezing/cooling' and we know we read of the fridge referencing, the information has been removed, which to my mind is significant that no one in TM wants anyone else to be focussing on a fridge. So is it a sensitive area.

Given the recent reports of freezing bodies and concealing them behind food, (Joanna Cipriano & other) it does not look to be that much of a stretch of the imagination, that in an emergency someone would consider a temporary hiding place, either for a complete, or ghastly as it seems, dismembered body.

Why refer to something, then remove all reference to it, if it is innocent. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Bobbin wrote:
Thanks tigger, I think your suggestions re 'codes' in the open, are valid. But to be sure, by elimination, I suppose the other angle to come from, would be to look at the other 'memories' that we have.

Did the owner of the apartment/fridge not say at some time that he was surprised the fridge had been changed, something like it was quite new and the occupants hadn't reported it as failing. Has he been interviewed to say whether he thought the fridge in his apartment was a new replacement and not the same make as he had installed.
Did the PJ find any local fridge suppliers who had sold one. Were the bank statements/credit cards looked at by the PJ.

unquote


It is so unlikely that a fridge present in either 5a or the villa would have been used to store a dead body that it's not worth discussing imo.
Therefore the fridge entry must have another purpose. Particularly if it was deleted within days. It's on a par with the wallet episode, the drunk in the road and saving a man's life on the plane - all from one source only - Gerry and his blog. Backed up by that invaluable mouthpiece: Philomena.
So the source is unreliable and none of the information given is backed up by independent evidence.
Imo none of the above happened.
Imo posting these events had another purpose.
Imo this was information for third parties.

I have total trust in the PJ to work out the above questions. They were smart enough to see that nothing much corroborated any statement of the McCanns.

bobbin wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:We have to be very careful about internet myths.
The McCanns had a [reported] problem with the washing machine and a [proven] mechanic to fix it in 5A.
Gerry replacing a fridge/freezer from the villa, after being ousted from the OC, has been reported by many, but cannot be documented [anymore].

I appreciate that but has anyone got the full David Payne interviews stored. I have been through what I can find, a long winded job.

If anyone can locate the quoted ref in the previous post then it will be helpful.

It's here.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
and
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

1485 ”Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply ”Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
1485 ”Mm.”
Reply ”Err but apart from that err there was nothing else that really you know springs to mind.”

PeterMac wrote:

bobbin wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:We have to be very careful about internet myths.
The McCanns had a [reported] problem with the washing machine and a [proven] mechanic to fix it in 5A.
Gerry
replacing a fridge/freezer from the villa, after being ousted from the
OC, has been reported by many, but cannot be documented
[anymore].

I appreciate that but has anyone got the full David
Payne interviews stored. I have been through what I can find, a long
winded job.

If anyone can locate the quoted ref in the previous post then it will be helpful.

It's here.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
and
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

1485
”Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean
Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply ”Err we, you
know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in,
in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they
had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and
we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err
you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you
like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had
problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the
fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know
which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that,
you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
1485 ”Mm.”
Reply ”Err but apart from that err there was nothing else that really you know springs to mind.”

Paul Rees. (from Missing Madeleine site, 'the Fridge' thread)
"Err the, I know that, you know Kate and Gerry
had had problems err with the fridge in their flat" #mccann - Dr Payne

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This looks like a verbatim quote, but I have been through the RIs 3 times now and can't find the exact one above.
It's probably not important, but where I
thought there were two confirming quotes, the one directly above by
Paul Rees does not include the word "again". Did this one happen
first, and the 'again' one happen again.

I do agree with tigger though that a freezer is more relevant than a
fridge, unless there was a fridge incident at the new villa, not 5A,
where removal from freezer (site unknown) to holding in fridge before
going into boot could have lead to some thawing, contamination and need to remove.

However I am not sure at what time there would have been transport big enough to take a fridge. The one in 5a was a tall, fridge freezer. I don't think the car with forensic traces could have carried a big fridge unless the seats folded down.

Hopefully the PJ have kept details that we don't have, and that the
McCanns have made desperate attempts to get hold off.

So basically in that passage Payne is pointing the finger of suspicion at the maintenance workers. Like Kate in her book pointing it at the creche workers, other staff or cooks vis a vis her belief or wonder that maybe Madeleine had been drugged during the day on the Thursday.

I wonder what train of thought Payne followed.Blind repair man comes round to 5a, Kate is alone, fixes the blinds, shows her how to use the machine, then........? Rhetorical question anyway. eta: I cant see any difference in the highlighted words.

1485 ”Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply ”Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
I've just copied the above quote from mccannfiles, the one below is in Bobbin's post. I can see no difference

1485
”Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean
Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply ”Err we, you
know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in,
in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they
had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and
we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err
you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you
like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had
problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the
fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know
which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that,
you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
1485 ”Mm.”
Reply ”Err but apart from that err there was nothing else that really you know springs to mind.”

bobbin wrote:

tigger wrote:I just came across another nugget by Payne in the RI.
Considering that the body was likely kept in a fridge or freezer and the repair that had to be done in 5a was to the washing machine - is Payne once again battling his leaking memory ? He gets the blinds right but not the washing machine.

quote:
1485 "Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply "Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
1485 "Mm.”
unquote

Tigger I've just seen this, from the thread, the Fridge, on Missing Madeleine site, if I may mention. Apparently the ref web site has also been whooshed, but I'm sure someone here will have the Payne rogatory interviews, and if not, then at least the Portuguese police should have them. Anyway it's a second reference to the fridge which many of us are certain we read before they were disappeared.


(ETA This is what I (bobbin) found posted on MM site.)

quote;
Paul Rees,
Remember on Gerry McCann's blog where he wrote he disposed of a broken fridge at a dump, then replaced it?
It was seen as dead suss at the time as it would be the villa owner's
responsibility then he deleted all mention of it from his blog and his
supporters denied all knowledge of a broken fridge.
As luck would
have it, I was perusing the police files yesterday and it's mentioned
by David Payne, proving its existence, so I hope the Met are exploring
what happened to it.
"Err the, I know that, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with the fridge in their flat" #mccann - Dr Payne
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://​www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/​DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Yesterday at 3:14am ·

So......why would the McCanns need to dispose of a Fridge?" [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hello tigger, it's a bit complicated but here's the story.
Above in red, is the first post I made in reply to yours, about ref to fridge, written by Paul Rees, and entered on the Missing Madeleine website in the thread 'the fridge'
The words quoted re the fridge are different from the McCannpjfiles version which is the only one I can find.
Paul Rees version is 1; "Err the, I know that, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with the fridge in their flat"

The McCannpjfiles version is 2; Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err, with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge etc."

Now, is version 1, a precis, although it is in speech marks, and where was it printed because it is not the same as the McCannpjfiles version (no. 2)

If Payne had referred to it before, justifying the 'again' in version 2, is he refering to the first fridge/apartment 5a or confusing it with the washing machine.

Is 'fridge', forensic-liguistically, present in his mind, since it is supposed to be the fridge in the villa that K & G moved to, that was changed, and not the one associated with 'washing machine / blind repairs'.(Paul Rees version refers to villa owner)

Is he saying in his Rogatory, the word 'again', because 'fridge' is important in his mind. Why does he think the policeman interviewing him, will already know (using 'again') about a previous mention of the fridge.

I'm stumped, because the first version without the word 'again' is just an inexact quote from the RI imo.

I think the insertion of 'again' is just the way Payne tends to putter on - if you read his RI it's full of such insertions. As one would say , there again, we can say that... Or: again, of course they had some trouble. It doesn't denote the actual meaning of again in that there was a recurrence of an event.

Unless the villa they rented from the beginning of July was the place where they had stored the body in the fridge and therefore the fridge needed to be ditched in reality - I cannot see how the actual dumping of a fridge ever took place. Besides, the PJ observed their movements all the time, so anything dumped by GM would certainly have been checked out. Far too public a way of getting rid of evidence. No go imo.

The only really interesting bit is Payne inserting fridge instead of washing machine in his answer.

copied from another thread where I posted this , no apologies for being like a dog with a bone !
one of the most significant passages from Kate McCann's book imo.

Kate’s account :

"Then a lady appeared on a balcony – I’m fairly certain this was about 11pm, before the police arrived – and, in a plummy voice, inquired, ‘Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen off a kitchen shelf. I remember feeling both shocked and angry at this woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned reaction. I recollect that in our outrage, Fiona and I shouted back something rather short and to the point.

Well, apart from wondering when I read about the last sentence, would you bother, given the enormity of what had happened [allegedly], to shout at an elderly lady rather than just comment to one another on the lack of response, the huge red flag waving look at me was the change of verb. Kate McCann is not logical in her use of language, the expected analogy for denoting inadequacy would still have contained the same verb or one conveying the same meaning

as if some of my jewellery/passport/money/wallet HAD BEEN STOLEN/HAD GONE MISSING. a thing, not a person, so getting a suitable not very strong response. the same verb would be the logical one to use here.
She does not use a verb conveying the same meaning at all. She does not refer to anything vanishing or being stolen.
She uses a different verb and one which also has the active not passive voice.
The passive used for her sleeping child being STOLEN when she was not in a state to perform an action such as WAKING , WANDERING AROUND then LEAVING .
She uses a verb denoting an ACTION... a can of beans HAD FALLEN off a shelf. The analogy is not logical and is very telling in my opinion. She does not even compare a child being stolen to a child falling......she does not write...".almost as if she'd been told Maddie had fallen over , not been abducted/taken/stolen"

The can of beans is just a way to insult the lady, Maddie being insignificant to this elderly person upstairs. She could have chosen any number of things to express this sense of the child being diminished , a dog, a cat, [ pets which can go missing, be stolen]...
but she chooses an inanimate object [ almost nothing is what she is trying to convey]. she still does not refer to a theft which is the logical thing to do.
the verb is the giveaway imo. Also I am wondering if her daughter did not injure herself in a fall whilst in motion. Was she sitting or standing still like that unmoving can of beans , probably on a piece of furniture, and either lost her balance or was pushed, maybe by one of her younger siblings or one of the children in the group, whilst under adult supervision . Might this have happened in creche or in an apartment?
I also wonder if it could be the parent of the child who has been involved in such an accident who felt obliged to help the McCanns.

This follows on from the above post quite well: it's from page 19 here but shortened.
]6. Euphemisms
Many
languages offer alternative terms for almost any action or situation.
Statements made by guilty parties often include mild or vague words
rather than their harsher, more explicit synonyms. Euphemisms portray
the subject's behavior in a more favorable light and minimize any harm
the subject's actions might have caused. Investigators should look for
euphemistic terms such as: "missing" instead of "stolen," "borrowed"
instead of "took," "bumped" instead of "hit," and "warned" instead of
"threatened".

Fred-up posted:
Did anyone happen to pick up on paragraph 6 "Euphemisms" mention of "bumping" as opposed to hitting? This brought to mind RO's rogatory statement:

" 1578 “Okay. Did you want to mention something about Doctors in the group”?

Reply “Yeah I was just going to say that, you know Kate and Gerry are both Doctors and you know there were three other medics in the group, erm four others actually sorry, four others, erm you know so if by any chance they’d accidentally done anything to Madeleine or she was ill or erm you know something wasn’t quite right, I mean they wouldn’t have just left her and sort of tried to cover it up as an accident or you know, they would of sort of you know, come and got Matt and Russell and Dave and Fi, erm I mean you know, not just because they are Doctors, because you know they’re parents and you’d kind of go to anyone to see who could help but if you’ve got, you know Doctors as friends who were there as well, erm you know there were kind of six people there who if Madeleine had accidentally been bumped on the head or you know whatever the theories are supposed to be, erm you know, there were plenty of people there who could of you know, tried to revive a child, erm”."
unquote.

Kate's version:

"Then a lady appeared on a balcony – I’m fairly certain this was about 11pm, before the police arrived – and, in a plummy voice, inquired, ‘Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?’ I explained as clearly as I was able, given the state I was in, that my little girl had been stolen from her bed, to which she casually responded, ‘Oh, I see,’ almost as if she’d just been told that a can of beans had fallen off a kitchen shelf. I remember feeling both shocked and angry at this woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned reaction. I recollect that in our outrage, Fiona and I shouted back something rather short and to the point.

IMO this response is not right. Who'd give a tinker's about what accent someone spoke with in such circumstances? How about saying to Mrs Fenn, 'my daughter Madeleine is missing, we can't find her?, have you seen her?, have you heard anything?, did you see anyone
near the apartment tonight? can you help us?

Instead, we get 'plummy accent' indignation, sarcasm and insulting behaviour. Amazing!

Isn't Kate trying to suggest here that what Mrs Fenn later said to the police was said out of malice because they'd rowed with each other?

She does the same with Yvonne Martin as well I think ("She was quite pushy and her manner, her very presence, were making me feel uncomfortable and adding to my distress... This woman would pop up several times in the days and months to come and I still don't really know who she is or what she was trying to achieve.")

tcat wrote:Isn't Kate trying to suggest here that what Mrs Fenn later said to the police was said out of malice because they'd rowed with each other?

She does the same with Yvonne Martin as well I think ("She was quite pushy and her manner, her very presence, were making me feel uncomfortable and adding to my distress... This woman would pop up several times in the days and months to come and I still don't really know who she is or what she was trying to achieve.")

I'd bet my shirt KM knows exactly who she is. TM seem to know most things.

Madeleine could be held against her will for years like Fritzl's secret family Daily Mail
1st May 2008
Madeleine McCann's parents fear she could end up like the secret family Josef Fritzl kept captive in an underground dungeon in Austria, they revealed today.
In an appearance on Sky News the McCanns were asked if the shocking case gave them a glimmer of hope, as proof that it was possible for someone missing so long to still be alive.
Mr McCann replied: "It's an interesting concept isn't it? And of course Austria has had the other case of Natascha Kampusch who was missing for eight years." Unquote

No sure if I should put this here, but the remark is nagging me. Your four year - by now five year old child might have been kept in a cellar like the two examples above, it's not a possibility or a dreadful imagined fate. It's an interesting concept - an interesting theory....