Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010

by twinkle 04.02.10 20:40

vaguely1 wrote:I believe there's fundamental difference between comprehending the reason why they weren't prosecuted and being a neglect supporter.

I think this is the point that is being missed by some.

by Autumn 04.02.10 20:59

jkh wrote:Autumn, will you PM me please, I've been trying to contact you.

Sorry just saw your mssg, I have pmd you :flower:

by **Jill Havern** 04.02.10 21:05

Autumn wrote:
jkh wrote:Autumn, will you PM me please, I've been trying to contact you.

Sorry just saw your mssg, I have pmd you :flower:

Have emailed you.

by Kololi 04.02.10 21:07

I have just read "Kate's message" on Madeleine's web site.

It is very touching and re-inforced for me why it is important to them to ensure that Madeleine is included, as best they can, in family events such as the younger childrens' birthday.

Take care

by **Jill Havern** 04.02.10 21:42

So you don't think they are messing with the twins heads then by pretending that Maddie is sending them gifts whilst being held hostage by a paedophile in a secret lair and is being treated like a princess and there is no evidence that any harm has come to her?

Bless.

by twinkle 04.02.10 21:43

I have put alot of thinking into this neglect issue and also the concept of what exactly good parenting actually is.
You will have to bear with me here, as I talk very well but sadly it often doesn't carry well in type.
In my job I go on countless courses about children, often behavioural ones and much about SEN.
I attended one recently, that was very informative, on the impact of adult behaviour on children.
The basic theme was how mundane adult daily issues can actually cause children great distress without us the parents having any awareness of it.
Now I am not talking about arguments, nothing extreme.
But just children being aware maybe of a bill that needs paying, or a car that needs fixing, or even a trip that needs paying for.
Now as adults we are able to solve these problems, we have the emotional capacity to deal with day to day problems without much hassle.
But children who obviously don't have the emotional development too understand such things can take the burden of these things, and often without vocalising their concern, blame themselves for these things or try to solve the problem by compensating in some way.
Anyway, so if you buy into this theory, we are all damaging our kids in one way or another without thinking.
I personally believe that, yes we don't always behave as the ideal parent.........whatever that is, and we do our best with the tools we have, and hopefully give our kids enough to help them become well rounded individuals.
Totally off topic, sorry for that.

by vaguely1 04.02.10 21:46

twinkle wrote:I have put alot of thinking into this neglect issue and also the concept of what exactly good parenting actually is.
You will have to bear with me here, as I talk very well but sadly it often doesn't carry well in type.
In my job I go on countless courses about children, often behavioural ones and much about SEN.
I attended one recently, that was very informative, on the impact of adult behaviour on children.
The basic theme was how mundane adult daily issues can actually cause children great distress without us the parents having any awareness of it.
Now I am not talking about arguments, nothing extreme.
But just children being aware maybe of a bill that needs paying, or a car that needs fixing, or even a trip that needs paying for.
Now as adults we are able to solve these problems, we have the emotional capacity to deal with day to day problems without much hassle.
But children who obviously don't have the emotional development too understand such things can take the burden of these things, and often without vocalising their concern, blame themselves for these things or try to solve the problem by compensating in some way.
Anyway, so if you buy into this theory, we are all damaging our kids in one way or another without thinking.
I personally believe that, yes we don't always behave as the ideal parent.........whatever that is, and we do our best with the tools we have, and hopefully give our kids enough to help them become well rounded individuals.
Totally off topic, sorry for that.

Absolutely.

by marigold 04.02.10 21:50

[quote="jkh"]So you don't think they are messing with the twins heads then by pretending that Maddie is sending them gifts whilst being held hostage by a paedophile in a secret lair and is being treated like a princess and there is no evidence that any harm has come to her?

Bless.[/quote

It beggars belief doesn't it that some on this forum actually do think that's an acceptable way to behave towards the twins. Those poor children must be SO confused. Once again the mccanns are only thinking of themselves, reinforcing the view that Madeleine is still alive and using the twins to make the point. There is no limit to their disgusting behaviour.

by bellatrix 04.02.10 21:52

jkh wrote:So you don't think they are messing with the twins heads then by pretending that Maddie is sending them gifts whilst being held hostage by a paedophile in a secret lair and is being treated like a princess and there is no evidence that any harm has come to her?

Bless.

As we have no proof that ANY of this has been said or even hinted at to the twins it is very misleading to state it as fact imo.

by bellatrix 04.02.10 21:53

[quote="marigold"]

jkh wrote:So you don't think they are messing with the twins heads then by pretending that Maddie is sending them gifts whilst being held hostage by a paedophile in a secret lair and is being treated like a princess and there is no evidence that any harm has come to her?

Bless.[/quote

It beggars belief doesn't it that some on this forum actually do think that's an acceptable way to behave towards the twins. Those poor children must be SO confused. Once again the mccanns are only thinking of themselves, reinforcing the view that Madeleine is still alive and using the twins to make the point. There is no limit to their disgusting behaviour.

Again none of this fact simply YOUR opinion.

by **Jill Havern** 04.02.10 22:05

bellatrix wrote:
jkh wrote:So you don't think they are messing with the twins heads then by pretending that Maddie is sending them gifts whilst being held hostage by a paedophile in a secret lair and is being treated like a princess and there is no evidence that any harm has come to her?

Bless.

As we have no proof that ANY of this has been said or even hinted at to the twins it is very misleading to state it as fact imo.

It's been published in the press.

by twinkle 04.02.10 22:10

But like I said in my last post, if anyone other than the lovely vaguely read it, we are all messing with our kids heads in one way or another.

by Cath 04.02.10 22:11

Oh come on Jill, there's been loads of rubbish printed in the press.
By now we should be used to that.

by **Jill Havern** 04.02.10 22:14

Oh come on Inyx, this is about a missing child, presumed dead.

Rather important dont you think?

by Cath 04.02.10 22:16

twinkle wrote:But like I said in my last post, if anyone other than the lovely vaguely read it, we are all messing with our kids heads in one way or another.

I've read it. And agree. thumbsup

But it's not only parents who are messing with the kids heads, without realising it.
Like some teachers often don't realise the impact they've got on youngsters.
Last weekend I've seen a child in tears about that.

by Kololi 04.02.10 22:31

Hi Jill
I don't like mind games full stop prefering instead plain old honesty.

I am not sure however, that they are messing with the childrens' heads. I think it could be quite cruel for those children and for Madeleine in particular if she was not included in such special events.

How do we know that the children didn't either at one Xmas or on one of Madeleine's birthday not ask where Madeleine's presents were? Maybe this gift from Madeleine was actually instigated by something one or both of the twins said to their mum and dad - they sowed a seed so to speak.

Do relatives of dead people not put flowers on their graves? We could take a rather harsh line there and say that as they know they are dead they shouldn't waste their time because after all we all know that the dead person can't smell the flowers or touch them or see them being laid and, therefore they were only screwing with their own heads unecessarily. To the grieving person it is much more than a waste of time. It is a show of respect of caring and gives many a sense of closeness to the person that has gone.

If it was shown that Madeleine was dead and they still did this would it seem so odd? I don't think so. I think that I would probably do the same if one of my children died or was missing, location and consequences unknown. I think that I would always write a card from them on my other child's birthday and give it to them so that they never forgot that they did have a sibling and should cherish all the memories they had of that brother or sister.

Maybe, just maybe the gift was a similar token as the person who lays flowers on a loved ones grave and whilst I do think that the McCanns got things wrong on that holiday, I would never dream of thinking that they should not be allowed to keep Madeleine's memory alive to her younger brother and sister in whatever way they see fit. I say that for the younger children and particularly for Madeleine because the day they stop including her is the day she is truly lost forever.

Take care

by Kololi 04.02.10 22:36

Twinkle your post hit home for me too.

A long time ago I was bringing my children up alone as their father and I split up. I had a job but obviously the money didn't go as far as it did with two earners.

I used to be quite twitchy about leaving lights on in rooms we weren't in to try and keep the electric bill down until the day I over heard my five year old son getting quite cross with his older sister for leaving a light on in her room.

I thought I had done so well keeping my worries and upset hidden until I heard this and needless to say, after that incident the house was lit up like a ruddy Xmas tree by me and to hell with worrying about saving a few pennies on an electric bill.

Take care

by twinkle 04.02.10 22:41

But the thing is we are not bad parents because of this Koloki.
We are just living life, learning lessons along the way.. aren't we.

thumbsup

by Autumn 04.02.10 22:42

twinkle wrote:But like I said in my last post, if anyone other than the lovely vaguely read it, we are all messing with our kids heads in one way or another.

Twinkle, there is a huge difference between what you describe in your post and brainwashing your children into believing that that their sister, despite being held captive in lair somewhere near PDL, is allowed out to deliver presents to the family. You do not need to be a phycologist to realize that the twins will be very confused by this and, in time, will probably be very angry with their parents for deceiving them. I cannot think that anyone involved in child welfare would advise the McCanns to play games regarding their sister's whereabouts. They will be devasted when it eventually dawns on them that Maddie has not been sending prezzies to them - hope the McCanns have already pre-booked the twins' therapy sessions as they are going to need them.

by twinkle 04.02.10 22:48

I couldn't possibly comment on whether they are right or wrong in their actions regarding what they tell the twins, neither could I predict the effect it will have on them as they get older.

by Pascal 04.02.10 23:05

Kololi wrote:Hi Jill
I don't like mind games full stop prefering instead plain old honesty.

I am not sure however, that they are messing with the childrens' heads. I think it could be quite cruel for those children and for Madeleine in particular if she was not included in such special events.

How do we know that the children didn't either at one Xmas or on one of Madeleine's birthday not ask where Madeleine's presents were? Maybe this gift from Madeleine was actually instigated by something one or both of the twins said to their mum and dad - they sowed a seed so to speak.

Do relatives of dead people not put flowers on their graves? We could take a rather harsh line there and say that as they know they are dead they shouldn't waste their time because after all we all know that the dead person can't smell the flowers or touch them or see them being laid and, therefore they were only screwing with their own heads unecessarily. To the grieving person it is much more than a waste of time. It is a show of respect of caring and gives many a sense of closeness to the person that has gone.

If it was shown that Madeleine was dead and they still did this would it seem so odd? I don't think so. I think that I would probably do the same if one of my children died or was missing, location and consequences unknown. I think that I would always write a card from them on my other child's birthday and give it to them so that they never forgot that they did have a sibling and should cherish all the memories they had of that brother or sister.

Maybe, just maybe the gift was a similar token as the person who lays flowers on a loved ones grave and whilst I do think that the McCanns got things wrong on that holiday, I would never dream of thinking that they should not be allowed to keep Madeleine's memory alive to her younger brother and sister in whatever way they see fit. I say that for the younger children and particularly for Madeleine because the day they stop including her is the day she is truly lost forever.

Take care

Excellent post thumbsup

by Pascal 04.02.10 23:19

I think it's sad that there is such strong divisions over this issue and that of what we perceive as neglect.

I honestly hand on heart cannot see anything wrong with the present from Madeleine thing. It doesn't mean I don't question what happened on that holiday, which in my opinion is far more important.

These petty disagreements are fragmenting this nice forum. No one should be judged on what they truly believe or how they interpret the files or indeed the actions of the Madeleine Foundation. Yet there are snide comments addressed at perfectly polite posters.

Not everyone here supports the Foundation. I think that is a point of fact that should be accepted. If the Foundation has nothing to hide then it's representative shouldn't be bothered about a few awkward questions.

I think we have to accept that there will be differences in opinion. There's been enough cyber blood spilt over this case.

Just sayin'

by aiyoyo 05.02.10 8:02

Pascal wrote:II honestly hand on heart cannot see anything wrong with the present from Madeleine thing. It doesn't mean I don't question what happened on that holiday, which in my opinion is far more important.

Maddie's present is not so much an issue; the bigger issue is that the mccanns saw fit to tell the press of such trivial as their daily in and out. Why should that be in the public interest to know? Could it be perhaps the mccanns are at another self promoting publicity? Trying to portray themselves as caring parents - isnt it too late, at least where Maddie is concerned! And if not for Maddie's purpose, why announced it?

TBH, if you ask me, children's (age of the twins) understanding of a b/day party is limited to fun and presents. They havent a clue or give two monkeys who should buy them presents or who should do what? If the mccanns chose to buy a gift being representative from Maddie - fine. Taking aside people's concern why they mucked up the twins' cerveau with spin about Maddie - that's besides the point. The pertinent question is: Why announced it publicly - what's their aim? Any idea iyo by chance?
Otherwise people wouldnt be any wiser and wouldnt be discussing it negatively - they brought it on themselves - dont you think so?

by vaguely1 05.02.10 8:24

It wasn't a press release, it was a vacuous piece of journalism. In fact I almost seem to remember I read the same thing last year. Maybe someone just recycled it.

by Cath 05.02.10 9:24

jkh wrote:Oh come on Inyx, this is about a missing child, presumed dead.

Rather important dont you think?

Jill is the site having glitches? When I pushed the "send" button (my reply to this post of you) I got banned. Thanks for solving it though. Back OT.

This isn't about a missing child, this article (The Sun) is about the twins birthday and it's quoting an unnamed source.
Like Vaguely1 wrote, this article is almost similar to the article that was printed last year.
And now we're all discussing if it's right or wrong to to give the twins a birthday present from their missing sister. And we're making assumptions about what they've told the twins.
On top of that, some of us are making accusations it's causing psychological damage to the twins.

All of it caused by a sentimental (rubbish) article in a tabloid.
We don't know what's happened in PdL.
We don't know what they've told the twins. We don't know if they've asked (psychological) advice on what's best to do.
It's a way of keeping her memory alive, who are we to judge that?

Kololi has said it so much better thumbsup

by aiyoyo 05.02.10 10:02

Keeping her memory alive is all very well and good for them.
Why is it important for the public to know or is public supposed to keep her memory alive as well?

I fully understand it is important for them to keep her memory alive, the Sun bit I dont understand tbh.

by Cath 05.02.10 10:15

I don't understand either why the Sun publishes articles like this.
Does it increase sales? Hardly likely imo.
Human interest story? The kind of thing their public wants to read?

by Pascal 05.02.10 11:54

I think the McCanns have been caught up in their own pr and are very badly advised.

by Cath 05.02.10 11:58

Re: Birthday Gift from Maddie - 'The Sun' 1st Feb 2010
by Cath 05.02.10 11:58

You're probably right Pascal.
Woofall, McGuiness, Mitchell.
They all have/had their own agenda.
Right or wrong, all of them made money out of this.

by Kololi 05.02.10 12:46

Hi
I couldn't agree more about the publicity of the gift - it actually wasn't necessary. I bet the McCann's are regretting having told a journalist about it too now having read some of the posts on forums like this this one and others, if indeed, it was them that told.

They are being damned for making this inclusive gesture for Madeleine but I am prepared to wager that had it been printed in papers that there was no gift for the twins on their birthday from Madeleine they would have been damned for that too. I am guessing it would be something along the lines of, "Oh look they are forgetting her already". Of course, we will never know that for sure now but that's where I would place my money. Damned for doing and equally damned had they not.

I will never be able with hand on heart say that I can understand what they did on that holiday and I do feel they were selfish and put themselves before the children, thus jepordising the childrens' safety and Madeleiene has paid the greatest price of all of them for their selfishness.

They don't come across even as a likeable couple for me but are we not getting a little side tracked by some of the unimportant stuff? Discussing shoes that Kate McCann is wearing at their celebrity bash really isn't going to help uncover what happened to Madeleine is it and yet on MM forum she was torn into for that. A forum that says it cares about Madeleine. Please explain how ripping apart Kate McCann's choice of shoes will help find out the truth of Madeleine's disappearnace and her current whereabouts? She could have gone bare foot or in wellington boots - what does it honestly matter when considering the reason a good many of us offer up as to why we are here - justice for Madeleine.

Whether they give their twins a present from Madeleine doesn't really matter - it doesn't tell us the whereabouts of Madeleine McCann and why she ended up where ever she might be.

Take care

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