Re: The tapas phone autopsy

by Guest 26.08.11 9:44

Me wrote:
It would be nice to see if call times and locations match up with entries in the creche records and the movements they claimed they made in their statements.

There is one very interesting thing that Kiko pointed out to us.

It is usually Gerry that picks Madeleine up at lunchtime from the morning creche. But on the 3rd at 12.24, Gerry was busy taking the only actual call he had that week. So Kate was tasked with collecting Madeleine.

Why did this call prevent Gerry from going to the creche that day?

	sun	mon	tue	wed	thur
Lobsters	29	30	1	2	3

AM in	9.45	9.30	9.30	9.20	9.10
AM out	12.15	12.10	12.20	12.30	12.25
PM in	2.45	3.15	2.30	2.45	2.50
PM out	5.30	3.30		5.30	5.30

GM
28	29	30	1	2	3
				8.07
				8.07
				9.10
				9.13
				9.18
	10.13			10.35
				10.47
				12.35	12.24
				13.46
				13.48
				13.59
				15.49
				15.50
				17.49
				19.49
				20.14
					23.14
					23.17
					23.40
					23.52
10.13	text message
red / VM
black / calls
	no calls
	same as Kate
	same as Kate but Gerry deletes it on his phone
	alarm is raised
	voicemails from unknown source
	only call after 88 hours of taking no calls
	Gerry saves this voicemail, then turns off his phone

by Guest 27.08.11 9:41

One more thing on that 12.24 incoming phone call Gerry took on the 3rd. If you were thinking that Kate went to get Madeleine only because Gerry was busy on the phone, you are wrong. According to the creche records, Madeleine was collected at 12.25, that's 60 seconds later. Which means that the decision for Kate to pick up Madeleine instead of the ususal Gerry, was made long before Gerry managed to take that incoming call.

How did Gerry come to know that he was going to receive a call at that exact time, having had his phone switched off for more than 24 hours?

by Newintown 27.08.11 14:59

Stella wrote:One more thing on that 12.24 incoming phone call Gerry took on the 3rd. If you were thinking that Kate went to get Madeleine only because Gerry was busy on the phone, you are wrong. According to the creche records, Madeleine was collected at 12.25, that's 60 seconds later. Which means that the decision for Kate to pick up Madeleine instead of the ususal Gerry, was made long before Gerry managed to take that incoming call.

How did Gerry come to know that he was going to receive a call at that exact time, having had his phone switched off for more than 24 hours?

Perhaps Gerry had spoken with someone before he left for Portugal to call him on 3rd May at that time about certain "arrangements" re the disappearance of Madeleine or maybe one of the Tapas friends had told him to expect a call at that time from someone they'd spoken to on a previous day. Would that make sense?

by Guest 27.08.11 15:09

Yes it would. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by russiandoll 08.10.11 23:46

Someone asked for info as to what Kate wrote in her book about her activities on this date.
Very interesting. as you would expect, a lot written about 28th [ 4 pages approx] when the family travelled and about their first full day in PDL , 29th April [approx 6 pages]
It then looks like there will be a brief summary of days to come as following a predictable pattern due to the fact she and Gerry liked a routine [ 1 page].... as if the next thing you might read after a brief outline of activities will be a fuller description of the notorious date, May 3rd.
This does not happen , however, there is a fair amount of detail for May 1and 2,[ 5 pages] and then as expected an entire chapter is devoted to the fateful day.
What sticks out like a sore thumb is that she writes NOTHING about the daytime activities of 30th April.
The following is all that the reader learns:

" On the evening of Monday 30 April I made my first foray to Baptista with Jane." [ref to trip to local supermarket]. "We wanted to stock up on a few essentials as the next day was a public holiday. We all managed to make it for dinner at the tapas restaurant that evening. Again , there was quite a cold wind , but there were plenty of amusing stories and mickey-taking to keep us cheerful."
There is a brief mention of the cleaner and her routine for the apartment and then it's straight on to May 1st.

Borrowed the book from local library, a most interesting read and as far as I am concerned, her silence about April 30th speaks volumes.
It is imo a significant date.

by Newintown 09.10.11 10:33

" On the evening of Monday 30 April I made my first foray to Baptista with Jane." [ref to trip to local supermarket]. "We wanted to stock up on a few essentials as the next day was a public holiday. We all managed to make it for dinner at the tapas restaurant that evening. Again , there was quite a cold wind , but there were plenty of amusing stories and mickey-taking to keep us cheerful."

Cleaning materials perhaps??

by Guest 09.10.11 11:21

" On the evening of Monday 30 April I made my first foray to Baptista with Jane."

I too thought this comment was really strange. Kate told us that the Millennium was to far away for breakfast and that every day they would have lunch in their apartment. So where did all those groceries come from?

lunch on the 29th & 30th, breakfast on the 30th thinking

by russiandoll 09.10.11 14:38

Kate says that Gerry went to this supermarket 29th April to get a few items for lunch and cereal so that they could have breakfast from then on in their apartment. So breakfast in 5a from 30th onwards.

What really struck me as bizarre was Kate's reasonably full account of ALL days apart from 30th April.

28th when they only spent part of daytime hours there due to travel : 3+ pages

29th : 6+ pages

May 1: 2+ pages

May 2: 2 pages.

zero.....nada...nul....NOTHING ABOUT A FULL DAY SPENT IN PDL 30 APRIL AND THEN ONLY A BRIEF REF TO SUPERMARKET AND EVENING MEAL AT TAPAS.

Maybe just me ,but it makes the date 30 April very significant. Why the almost total silence over this date when she has described all others in varying amounts of detail. Fair enough if all other days after 29th merged together because of the routine of their activities.....but she does not do this in her book and then jump to 3 May. That would not be so remarkable. The fact that this is the ONLY day she chooses not to record at all apart from 2 brief references to shopping and eating, makes it a stand-out issue .

by russiandoll 09.10.11 14:50

As the supermarket trip took place evening 30th April and tapas meal was later on that evening.....Kate Mc Cann chooses to SAY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the activities of herself, her husband, her companions and her 3 children during daytime of 30th April.
ONLY 6 LINES written about 30th April when there are approx 16 PAGES devoted to writing about the holiday from 28th April until May 2nd.

The last we read of 29th is that she and Gerry were back in 5a at 11pm after their tapas meal.
No record of any activities until evening of 30th.
So an unusual day it would seem reasonable to conclude.
Any ideas why?

by Daisy 09.10.11 14:51

Newintown wrote:" On the evening of Monday 30 April I made my first foray to Baptista with Jane." [ref to trip to local supermarket]. "We wanted to stock up on a few essentials as the next day was a public holiday. We all managed to make it for dinner at the tapas restaurant that evening. Again , there was quite a cold wind , but there were plenty of amusing stories and mickey-taking to keep us cheerful."

Cleaning materials perhaps??

Separate toothbrushes for the children weren't essential though. I would imagine the baptista store sold them?

by russiandoll 09.10.11 16:13

from mccann files

Monday 30.04.2007

Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning

Kids clubs:

Tennis 09.15-10.15 K

G 10.15-11.15

*? washing machine / blinds

Lunch - our apartment then → balcony F and Dave

Kids club?? beach

+ / - 16.00 K run 25 min.

16:30 Tennis lessons

High tea

18:30? tennis night for women

Recreational area

Afternoon: K and J Supermarket

Rest. - everyone

by russiandoll 11.10.11 18:15

Have not completed reading of phone activity, but have read this from truth for madeleine site which appears to confirm what I am seeing so far, that mobiles left behind when they had tapas meals.

The evidence from the call logs gives the strongest clue that the “Tapas
9” left their telephones in their rooms when they went to dinner.
Clarence Mitchell, the McCann’s spokesperson, confirmed this. In an
interview, reported on 6th April 2008 by Ned Temko of “The Guardian”, Mr
Mitchell said: “You had nine people in a bar without watches on,
without mobile phones and absolute panic set in when they realised what
had happened…. We would say that, if the police had a perfect time line
across nine people, that would be a damn sight more suspicious than the
fractured, illogical, composite statements they might have got”

now of clarrie is correct, how did the likes of Gerry and his pal who did the check manage to be as precise as 9.04 or 9.05 for one of the checks? and the sighting that never was, JT was precise about the time I think.
good job im a lady or id say it was all a load of b******s

by **tigger** 12.10.11 19:52

russiandoll wrote:Have not completed reading of phone activity, but have read this from truth for madeleine site which appears to confirm what I am seeing so far, that mobiles left behind when they had tapas meals.

The evidence from the call logs gives the strongest clue that the “Tapas
9” left their telephones in their rooms when they went to dinner.
Clarence Mitchell, the McCann’s spokesperson, confirmed this. In an
interview, reported on 6th April 2008 by Ned Temko of “The Guardian”, Mr
Mitchell said: “You had nine people in a bar without watches on,
without mobile phones and absolute panic set in when they realised what
had happened…. We would say that, if the police had a perfect time line
across nine people, that would be a damn sight more suspicious than the
fractured, illogical, composite statements they might have got”

now of clarrie is correct, how did the likes of Gerry and his pal who did the check manage to be as precise as 9.04 or 9.05 for one of the checks? and the sighting that never was, JT was precise about the time I think.
good job im a lady or id say it was all a load of b******s

I think Kate says in the book something like ' at exactly 9.00 by his watch, Gerry got up...etc. ' I'll have to trawl it.
found it!
'After ordering his food, Gerry left to do the first check just before 9.05 by his watch. He entered the apartment via the patio
doors and noticed

by Gillyspot 15.10.11 22:55

Stella wrote:Here is a chart listing Kate and Gerry's calls on the 3rd. Those highlighted in yellow represent calls at the same time.

GM KM
03-May 03-May
8.23
8.24
12.24
12.31
13.34
23.14 23.14
23.17 23.17
23.40
23.52

Have just been having a think. Graham Mackenzie another holidaymaker at the Ocean Club said overhead Gerry McCann between 10 and 11 pm on 3rd May 2007 speaking to a family member about Madeleine being taken by a paedophile, Yet according to the records he made no calls.

From his statement

"It was later that evening around 10 ' 11 that I heard a commotion on the complex, I decided to go out and see what was going on. I walked round a saw a group of people gathered. John Hill the resort manager was there with some of the Mark Warner staff. I heard that a little girl called Maddie was missing, at that point I did not realise which child it was. John Hill was organising a search of the complex as it was thought that she had wandered off at that point in time. I let (my wife) know what was going on and went to join the search. I went to search the area around the back of our apartment where there is a little garden with a big palm tree in the middle. I was looking in the shrubbery and the little gardens to the apartments.

I worked my way around the area, eventually coming around the back of the tennis courts and up towards what I now know to be the McCanns apartment a couple of hours later. I was looking in the little gardens on the poolside of that block, I was in the end garden when I heard a male voice, he sounded distraught his voice cracking with emotion. I looked to see who I now know to be Gerry McCann stood above me on the balcony/patio about 3 metres away speaking on a mobile phone. I cannot recall his exact words but I got the impression that he was speaking to perhaps a family member or someone he was very close to due to the nature of his conversation.

He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.

I had looked up by now and we actually made eye contact, his conversation did not change at all when he realised that I was there. I felt as if I were intruding on a private moment and so I left the garden at that point. I had overheard only a snippet of it"
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by Guest 16.10.11 8:03

Gillyspot wrote:

Have just been having a think. Graham Mackenzie another holidaymaker at the Ocean Club said overhead Gerry McCann between 10 and 11 pm on 3rd May 2007 speaking to a family member about Madeleine being taken by a paedophile, Yet according to the records he made no calls.

ooh interesting..... good spot!

Looking at Gerry's phone records, those two calls were from Gerry to Kate.

I looked at the phone ping maps for Tapas 7 for that time, in case one of their phones was used for calls by Gerry:

Diane - no pings after 1930
David Payne - NO Phone records available 29 April, 1,2,3 May (hmmmm....why?)
Jane - no pings after 2030 and this was a call to the Goddards
Fiona - no pings that day
Russell - no pings after 10:52

Rachel and Matt's pings are interesting. They have many pings between 2245 and 2324 - many of them within 5 seconds of each other. Can't see any call records which show actual numbers called for them but to me looks like they were in communication with each other as one phone will ping then 5 seconds later the other. Only calls that fall outside this pattern are for Matt 22:45:05, 22:45:13, 22:45:30. Given the quick succession these are either very short calls or sms... either way, can't be Gerry on a lengthy phone call that was witnessed ...

Rachel pings 22:51:24 then Matt pings 22:51:25 - 1 second diff
Matt pings 22:58:29 then Rachel pings 22:58:34 - 5 seconds diff
Rachel pings 22:59:12 then Matt pings 22:59:17 - 5 seconds diff
Matt pings 23:00:18 then Rachel pings 23:00:22 - 4 seconds diff
Matt pings 23:05:44 then Rachel pings 23:05:48 - 4 seconds diff
Rachel and Matt ping together at 23:06:17
Matt pings 23:24:31 then Rachel pings 23:24:41 - 10 seconds diff

by Guest 16.10.11 8:17

Gillyspot wrote:
Stella wrote:Here is a chart listing Kate and Gerry's calls on the 3rd. Those highlighted in yellow represent calls at the same time.

GM KM
03-May 03-May
8.23
8.24
12.24
12.31
13.34
23.14 23.14
23.17 23.17
23.40
23.52

Have just been having a think. Graham Mackenzie another holidaymaker at the Ocean Club said overhead Gerry McCann between 10 and 11 pm on 3rd May 2007 speaking to a family member about Madeleine being taken by a paedophile, Yet according to the records he made no calls.

Could this be explained by Gerry deleting a call, or are the pings still recorded on the ping map, even after deleting a call ?

Could this also mean that Gerry was using someone elses phone?

I wish I was more knowledgeable about these things..

by **tigger** 16.10.11 8:21

Hi Gillispot,
So Gerry learned in the half hour or so not taken up with writing timelines, deleting all calls on his mobile and - according to some - running round OC trying to find her, that there were paedophile gangs in PdL?
It follows then that somebody told him this between 10.00 and the time of the telephone call. I wonder if the police had yet to arrive, since they weren't called until 10.40.
It can't have been the police who told him this, because they didn't hold this opinion at all, Besides, when they arrived they were treated to the masonic plea of Gerry, (or the praying Arab performance as Amaral put it), then inside they got a repeat performance from both, checked the cupboards and the flats asking questions. No they were busy.
I'm thinking that Gerry made that call before the police arrived and it makes no sense at all.
Because if he knew that earlier in the week, why leave the door open? If he found out later, who told him? Because as late as 10.30, when he spoke with Mrs. Fenn, he just mentioned that a 'little girl' was missing. No panic, no paedophiles.
If I encountered a parent looking anxiously for his child, I'd go an help him look, mentioning 'by the way, there are paedophile gangs in the area, we all know that' , wouldn't be top of the list.
It would also have to be an English speaking person and since most of those were guests on holiday, they'd not be likely to know about paedophile gangs, surely, if they knew, they'd have picked another holiday spot.

by Guest 16.10.11 8:24

I think someone must have told him about this even before the alarm was raised.

by **tigger** 16.10.11 8:34

Stella wrote:I think someone must have told him about this even before the alarm was raised.

I think you're too nice! I think he made it up.
And if he didn't make it up, he made it very easy for 'them' to take Maddie, didn't he?

by Guest 16.10.11 9:26

tigger wrote:
Stella wrote:I think someone must have told him about this even before the alarm was raised.
I think you're too nice! I think he made it up.
And if he didn't make it up, he made it very easy for 'them' to take Maddie, didn't he?

No tigger, I'm thinking Casa Pia and the reason why paedophiles might choose Portugal over Jersey, when the Jersey care home scandal was shortly about to break !!! Someone, somewhere, probably knew this. They had contacts in high places with all the right ~~ideas~~ information. winkwink

by Gillyspot 16.10.11 15:04

How about Gerry McCann was not actually on the phone but just pretending to be. Remember Graham McKenzie said that Gerry didn't lower his voice or make any signal that he was being overheard and carried on discussing it (perhaps that was the plan to prove he believed there was an abduction)?

by Guest 17.10.11 8:13

Good point Gilly !!! That would account for no pings at that time.

by Lance De Boils 21.12.11 20:57

Just read this thread. Can't pretend to understand it fully, but was thinking the same as Gilly... Sounds like he intended to be heard - otherwise why hold a conversation like that on the balcony? Absolutely no reaction to realising he was being overheard? No pings?
He might have been holding a mobile, but doesn't mean he was necessarily using it.
He could even have been talking to someone in the apartment, just looking in a different direction and holding a phone.

by Angelique 21.12.11 23:39

Stewie wrote:

Rachel pings 22:51:24 then Matt pings 22:51:25 - 1 second diff
Matt pings 22:58:29 then Rachel pings 22:58:34 - 5 seconds diff
Rachel pings 22:59:12 then Matt pings 22:59:17 - 5 seconds diff
Matt pings 23:00:18 then Rachel pings 23:00:22 - 4 seconds diff
Matt pings 23:05:44 then Rachel pings 23:05:48 - 4 seconds diff
Rachel and Matt ping together at 23:06:17
Matt pings 23:24:31 then Rachel pings 23:24:41 - 10 seconds diff

Could these be multiple recipients of same text?

by Liz Eagles 22.12.11 6:52

I can't begin to understand the technical info. There is a point I'd like to raise in terms of 'having no mobile/having low battery/no phone charger/phone switched off' etc.

When the kids were placed in the creche would the creche need a mobile phone number to contact the parents if the child were taken ill/in distress? If that's the case what number was registered with the creche and if/when that phone was switched off what times co-incided with the childrens' creche times.

Why would there be no mobile phones at the dinner table? I think that's a big issue here. A group of professionals and friends go on holiday. They take their mobile phones and chargers (who doesn't take their mobile phone nowadays?). They decide to dine together every evening at a fairly regular time. They stay in different apartments. They take it in turns to check on the children. I'd have thought text messaging would be very useful. One of the women intimated she didn't like the walk to check on the kids as it was a bit deserted - I'd have thought that was a very good reason to have a mobile phone in my hand. It would also be a good idea to have a mobile phone for the very reason that if one of the kids was awake/crying a text message could be sent to the dinner table of the Tapas bar. I seem to remember one of the T7 did a 'listening' and didn't enter the apartment, didn't have keys and couldn't remember if the door was open (perhaps my recollection is fuzzy). What would that person have done if one of the McCann children were awake/crying? legged it back to the Tapas bar?

As for a Portuguese pay-as-you-go phone. I ask myself why would that be needed? If they were using a Portuguese number did PJ have it? I can't believe that a Portuguese sim card would be needed for cost reasons.

Sorry, I can't contribute to the technical stuff - I wish I had a technical analytical brain but I don't. I just have the above questions.

by Guest 22.12.11 7:33

aquila wrote:I can't begin to understand the technical info. There is a point I'd like to raise in terms of 'having no mobile/having low battery/no phone charger/phone switched off' etc.

When the kids were placed in the creche would the creche need a mobile phone number to contact the parents if the child were taken ill/in distress? If that's the case what number was registered with the creche and if/when that phone was switched off what times co-incided with the childrens' creche times.

Why would there be no mobile phones at the dinner table? I think that's a big issue here. A group of professionals and friends go on holiday. They take their mobile phones and chargers (who doesn't take their mobile phone nowadays?). They decide to dine together every evening at a fairly regular time. They stay in different apartments. They take it in turns to check on the children. I'd have thought text messaging would be very useful. One of the women intimated she didn't like the walk to check on the kids as it was a bit deserted - I'd have thought that was a very good reason to have a mobile phone in my hand. It would also be a good idea to have a mobile phone for the very reason that if one of the kids was awake/crying a text message could be sent to the dinner table of the Tapas bar. I seem to remember one of the T7 did a 'listening' and didn't enter the apartment, didn't have keys and couldn't remember if the door was open (perhaps my recollection is fuzzy). What would that person have done if one of the McCann children were awake/crying? legged it back to the Tapas bar?

As for a Portuguese pay-as-you-go phone. I ask myself why would that be needed? If they were using a Portuguese number did PJ have it? I can't believe that a Portuguese sim card would be needed for cost reasons.

Sorry, I can't contribute to the technical stuff - I wish I had a technical analytical brain but I don't. I just have the above questions.

I think it was Gerrys number that they left with the creche to contact them, wich is funny since his mobile was turned of until the 3th May..

by **tigger** 25.02.12 9:19

Invinoveritas, this is as far as I know, a pretty complete account of the phone pings as collated by Kikoraton.

I note that you suggest ( in the creche sheets topic) a new topic on this to go 'behind closed doors' - I don't really know what you mean by that? Because if there is new information, would that then be available only to a limited number of members?

That would detract from the value of this topic for instance, I think. It would leave it incomplete and wrong conclusions could be drawn by members without access to privileged information.

by Invinoveritas 25.02.12 19:57

tigger wrote:Invinoveritas, this is as far as I know, a pretty complete account of the phone pings as collated by Kikoraton.

I note that you suggest ( in the creche sheets topic) a new topic on this to go 'behind closed doors' - I don't really know what you mean by that? Because if there is new information, would that then be available only to a limited number of members?

That would detract from the value of this topic for instance, I think. It would leave it incomplete and wrong conclusions could be drawn by members without access to privileged information.

Not at all tigger, my suggestion was and is, is that the information that is available here on the many threads should be bundled onto one thread, where the chronological list of events is available for reference, I think Stella understood what I was saying, this is what I meant when I said "behind closed doors", then anyone can start a thread if they wish to, using the data-bank for reference and is then free for discussion

by **tigger** 26.02.12 9:08

Invinoveritas wrote:
tigger wrote:Invinoveritas, this is as far as I know, a pretty complete account of the phone pings as collated by Kikoraton.

I note that you suggest ( in the creche sheets topic) a new topic on this to go 'behind closed doors' - I don't really know what you mean by that? Because if there is new information, would that then be available only to a limited number of members?

That would detract from the value of this topic for instance, I think. It would leave it incomplete and wrong conclusions could be drawn by members without access to privileged information.

Not at all tigger, my suggestion was and is, is that the information that is available here on the many threads should be bundled onto one thread, where the chronological list of events is available for reference, I think Stella understood what I was saying, this is what I meant when I said "behind closed doors", then anyone can start a thread if they wish to, using the data-bank for reference and is then free for discussion

I totally agree with the need to have the large amount of data correlated, chronologically and with references supplied. A set of references for members to use for discussions in other threads.
From the topics started recently which only selected members may join, it seems to me that the inevitable discussions re new points are still obscuring the original topic - just as often happens on the 'open' topics.
Imo there is no need for these separate 'closed' discussion topics, there is a need for clear correlated data with references - without distracting discussions.
In the case of new data becoming available - the data bank could be adjusted by a moderator.

by Guest 11.03.12 8:19

Kiko [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] They have been listening to you. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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