The Express 29/10/14 Untested human hairs provide new hope in police hunt for DNA clues

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Madeleine McCann: Untested human hairs provide new hope in police hunt for DNA clues

BRITISH detectives probing the Madeleine McCann disappearance in Portugal want to retest hairs after it was found previous DNA tests carried out during the original investigation were incomplete.

By: Gerard CouzensPublished: Wed, October 29, 2014
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Madeleine McCann who went missing in 2007Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann want to DNA test hairs[AP]

Nearly 100 strands of hair tested during the original Madeleine McCann investigation were never DNA-matched, it emerged today.

Portuguese forensic experts analysed 444 hair strands they believed could hold the key to the youngster’s May 3 2007 disappearance.

They found 432 were human and 12 non-human. They were unable to DNA-match 98 of them and only obtained partial results from 19 of them, Portuguese daily Correio da Manha reported.

MADELEINE MCCANN: THE SEARCH CONTINUES

British detectives probing Madeleine McCann’s disappearance want to retest some of the hairs as well as curtains hanging in the Algarve apartment where she vanished.

Scotland Yard are expected to apply for permission in a sixth international letter of request to take the samples from a Portuguese lab so experts can look at them in the UK.

The fifth letter, understood to contain a request to reinterview three new suspects quizzed in the summer, has yet to be answered by new Madeleine McCann prosecutor Ines Sequeira.

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A Met Police team led by DCI Andy Redwood announced their wish to look again at forensic material collected in the early days of the Madeleine McCann investigation during a visit to the university town of Coimbra earlier this month.

They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.

Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”

“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.

“The British police wanted clarification on the examinations the institute had carried out during the early stages of the inquiry in the areas of genetics and biology.

“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.

“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.

“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.

“Several possibilities are open. One could be that British police do the tests in Britain with British technology and another that the institute does them.

“But that’s an area in which the institute does not have the last word. There’s a situation of judicial cooperation and a new international letter of request would be necessary.

Considering the past I am surprised the Express are allowing comments esp of the type people are posting which
are not supportive of the McCanns at all

If they let SY have access to all the samples then we all are stuffed . any tests should be carried out independently say in Germany they hate us enough !!.

My Eureka moment re this case [ when i realised not only IMO the parents and by proxy there friends were involved ] but they were being protected , was when the results came back from the FSS and there expert stood and gave a statement , which was the biggest load of B*llocks i have ever heard .
It resonated and reminded me of the same stock reply when David Kelly died .

It would be interesting if that quote the wording could be delved up . it made no sense , it was designed to confuse ,to blind the lay person with science , it was slightly patronising . and it sounded like one doctor protecting another fellow professional .

This re running of the tests , has been leaked , hence the blitz getting there story out to give the impression they are controlling it .

Do you think the MSM know what is coming perhaps behind the scenes of newspapers etc they know what is coming and so have no fear of
litigation? Or am I being hopelessly optimistic

istillsloppingout wrote:If they let SY have access to all the samples then we all are stuffed . any tests should be carried out independently 

Yep, independently.

Tested on corpse banding please. That could be done in Portugal surely?
Otherwise let's get 'em their laboratory fitted out for that.

Never all the hairs, and solely in the presence of a third, neutral, scientist witness. All recorded on tape.

All is lost if an effort to erase all traces is successful.
It's our history being written, it's our Justice that needs to be done.
All my opinion.

Comments 'unavailable'

'quelle surprise'?

NON!

I'm very pleased that the parents don't seem to be 'buoyed ' by recent events at all, and there is a notable lack of input from TM and the pink one in any recent articles.

So they check all the hairs and end up with 100 different DNA profiles.
Not one is on record anywhere in the world.
Now what ?
Check Gerry and Kate - and find matches for both.
Now what ?
Check S*** and Am*** - and find matches for both
Now what  ?

What concerns me about these stories is the gibbering idiocy of what is being suggested.
As with fingerprints you have to work from the other end.

You have a suspect in custody.  S/he denies ever having been in the room or to the house or partment, at any time EVER.
S/he specifically denies every having touched the window, or having entered, or having stolen the TV.
You have a fingerprint match on the window sill and on the table on which once lived the TV.
"Do you care to re-consider your previous answers ?"
VERSUS
You have a suspect in custody.  S/he admits having been in the room and to the house or apartment, since s/he is a cleaner, handiman, visitor, friend, rent collector, agent, plumber, painter, . . . .
You have a fingerprint match on the window sill and on the table on which once lived the TV.
So what !

I saved the messages but can't seem to post them?

Compare with a dog alert.

The dog barks in your living room.
I do not arrest you for murdering your wife, since in fact she is in the kitchen making a cup of tea
VERSUS
You report that your wife is missing
You tell people that she went to Thailand at short notice three weeks ago
All her clothing is in the wardrobe
Her passport is in the drawer in the desk
Her mobile phone is in the kitchen
There is no record of any such passenger at any of the main airports
Neighbours report a long history of domestic violence
Police records show frequent visits to sort out domestic problems
Her mother reports that you had at least one other woman in your life
Her mother reports long phone calls where she said "I think he is going to kill me one day"
Her bank account has recently been cleared out
The signature used for this is clearly not hers
You took out a large Life Assurance Policy on her life three weeks ago
You have already been in touch with the Company to ask how long it has to run before you can make a claim

AND
The dog alerts to human blood in your living room !

That is how it works

PeterMac wrote:Compare with a dog alert.

The dog barks in your living room.
I do not arrest you for murdering your wife, since in fact she is in the kitchen making a cup of tea
VERSUS
You report that your wife is missing
You tell people that she went to Thailand at short notice three weeks ago
All her clothing is in the wardrobe
Her passport is in the drawer in the desk
Her mobile phone is in the kitchen
There is no record of any such passenger at any of the main airports
Neighbours report a long history of domestic violence
Police records show frequent visits to sort out domestic problems
Her mother reports that you had at least one other woman in your life
Her mother reports long phone calls where she said "I think he is going to kill me one day"
Her bank account has recently been cleared out
The signature used for this is clearly not hers
You took out a large Life Assurance Policy on her life three weeks ago
You have already been in touch with the Company to ask how long it has to run before you can make a claim

AND
The dog alerts to human blood in your living room !

That is how it works

I would imagine so. Putting all the pieces together to try to get to the truth.

SO,

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The Metropolitan Police officers also want to do test on curtains that were hanging in the Algarve apartment when Maddie went missing.
-----------------------------------------------------

NOT 'just' the kids room 'curtains' then?

A 'slight' change of emphasis?

The kids room 'curtains'...........................

WHERE 'potbelliedsmellyman' left his 'dna', on the curtains, as he slipped out of the HALF opened 'window' with a 3 years old child in his 'grasp' completely ignoring walking out of the front door of G5A 'laying wide open' (quote: Trish Cameron, GM's sister) he, presumably, OPENED!

Why use a 'laying open' wide front door to 'exit' by, when there is a perfectly good tiny, half opened, window, in the kids room, to 'exit' by with a 4 foot 'drop' outside?

Dosen't get any 'better', does it?

Still, there's one 'good' thing, regarding 'dna/evidence' OG MIGHT 'find'........................................B George was in prison in the UK in May 2007!  

NickE wrote:Goncalo Amaral Canal Porto 2014


Q: On what do you base that conviction?

“On many things. A series of indications, a series of contradictions, the witness statements of the parents, the witness statements of their friends, the traces that were collected with the assistance of special English dogs that never failed in the United Kingdom, they now work with the FBI. They never failed. At the time, we were introduced to several cases and situations, all of them they worked in and never failed. The possibility is that they failed in Portugal. Maybe it was the heat.”

Q: Was there human blood in the car boot and inside the apartment?

“No doubt. Inside the apartment and in the car boot. That human blood, the English lab even says, there is a report in the process, that says it’s the daughter of – the daughter of Gerald McCann, it’s a descendant of his. Later on, they change the hypothesis, and say that the combination of the DNA may be from anyone. By coincidence, in that case the DNA is very similar, 90% similar to that of Madeleine McCann, but it could be DNA built by myself, by Júlio Magalhães or by you, and then it would result in that DNA profile. But the funny thing is that it results in the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann. It does not result in the DNA profile of Júlio Magalhães, or of Gonçalo Amaral or of Luís Filipe Menezes. Not even in that of the doctor who performed the test.”

“We have no doubts, and this was discussed even at the level of Portuguese justice, at the level of the Public Ministry, that there was an alteration at the English lab. The data was manipulated. The FSS, the British lab, which was already questioned over several situations, even concerning the IRA in Ireland, over bomb attacks, those traces, that way to find the DNA, to examine the DNA with low copy number, was called into question relating to traces found on a bomb in an Irish case. And that lab was called into question.”

“But there is a situation, concerning the lab, which has to be taken into account. There are the registers that are performed by the technicians, by the scientists that examine, and we have to look at those registers, at what they wrote. On an everyday basis, as they examined the evidence, the traces that were sent over, what they wrote along. And then we see the result in that report that they sent over to Portugal.”

“Then there’s another situation. It is still possible to find out or to collect indications of whether or not the dogs failed. If inside that car boot – I’m referring to the car that was rented by the McCanns some 15 or 20 days after the disappearance – blood traces were found, traces that the lab says may be, although there is no full certainty, that may be from Madeleine McCann, hair was also found. Hair which the laboratory says, from its coloration, which is how this used to be done in the old days, by comparing the coloration, if it belonged to the person or not. Nowadays it is possible to perform, and then it was already possible, to perform DNA tests on hair. Some say it’s only possible to identify the DNA profile with the root of the hair, the English lab says it’s not possible because these have no root, therefore they don’t perform the test. That hair is in Portugal, it was returned to Portugal. They are next to the process. It’s simple: the Public Ministry, that has the investigation, should take that hair and send it to a lab in Europe or elsewhere, where that type of test is done, without the need for the root of the hair.”

Q: That was never done?

“That was never done. It was never done and what is said is that there may have been a contamination. But we end up not knowing whether that hair belongs to Madeleine McCann or not. That’s another doubt to discuss, to clarify. Now, there cannot be a piece of evidence while we’re here talking about the man who died under the tractor and quit his job a month before because there was 5 euro missing –“

...and then along came Winters & Goose heralded by Jim Gamble to insinuate the PJ were misinformed/didn't understand/the dogs were 'over sold'.

PeterMac wrote:Compare with a dog alert.

The dog barks in your living room.
I do not arrest you for murdering your wife, since in fact she is in the kitchen making a cup of tea
VERSUS
You report that your wife is missing
You tell people that she went to Thailand at short notice three weeks ago
All her clothing is in the wardrobe
Her passport is in the drawer in the desk
Her mobile phone is in the kitchen
There is no record of any such passenger at any of the main airports
Neighbours report a long history of domestic violence
Police records show frequent visits to sort out domestic problems
Her mother reports that you had at least one other woman in your life
Her mother reports long phone calls where she said "I think he is going to kill me one day"
Her bank account has recently been cleared out
The signature used for this is clearly not hers
You took out a large Life Assurance Policy on her life three weeks ago
You have already been in touch with the Company to ask how long it has to run before you can make a claim

AND
The dog alerts to human blood in your living room !

That is how it works

This tickled the analyst in me Peter and confirmed a simple concept.

When someone is deceptive and they have to pick a number, the number they invariably choose will be the number three(3) , the exception being in relation to alcohol where it is usually 2 or a couple. (3 is the liar's number Mark McClish)

I immediately picked up on You tell people that she went to Thailand at short notice three weeks ago

Thanks PeterMac for a well thought out explanation of a possible scenario 

They cannot shut Rocky up.    I just wish they would get on with the libel trial hearing in Portugal.

I still feel Rocky is very confident.  

noddy100 wrote:Do you think the MSM know what is coming perhaps behind the scenes of newspapers etc they know what is coming and so have no fear of
litigation? Or am I being hopelessly optimistic

noddy100

That's an interesting view of things.

From The Express article;


“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.

“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.

“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.


One of the non identified people is the person they are seeking to find namely: Madeleine McCann.

This may be in 5a and/or the Scenic or perhaps elsewhere?


The FSS struggled to even match the hair colouring of Madeleine if I remember correctly so as far as the hair studying goes
then why not. The more DNA markers you can test against the better I imagine. Madeleine was not blonde by the way.

They now have ( or should have?) a film print and analysis of Madeleine's Nuclear DNA. Plenty of markers there to try and match
collected samples against should they wish to do so and not just the hair.

432 human hairs and 98 unknown and 19 partial matches.


Can we assume from these figures that the INML/PJ/FSS/LP/ OG  know who these ' known ' hairs belong to?

Can they be excluded?

The 98 plus 19 partial matched hairs are therefore unknown?

They could be people who are not on a DNA database or those who didn't give DNA samples by mouth swab.

That's a lot of people to test for.

In my humble opinion this is what can happen when you are soley searching for potential abductors and not the abducted person.

There is a whole world to aim at when really your search should concentrate on the small world of PdL and where the events were
alleged to have taken place.

The dog indications require corroborative back up by further forensic evidence. The finding of this evidence is more important
than the finding of an alleged abductor. The abductor  is only an allegation whereas the dogs are an indication ( indicating to something
that should be investigated  further ) and because that avenue  has not been explored further and dispensed with then it remains that
there is no proof of an abductor forensically. That is, someone who shouldn't have been in 5a was in 5a.

Back to Madeleine - a person who most certainly should have been in 5a - but not the Scenic.

As far as I'm aware no trace of Madeleine has been found in 5a. We've had control samples from the parents matched to the pillowcase
brought from Rothley and even a bloodspot in a cardboard frame ( Nuclear DNA?) received on the 12/10/07 at the FSS.

As good a set of markers to test forensic collections against as you could find. Yet, despite all these assets not a trace of Madeleine
has been found where she should have been and a trace has been found where she shouldn't have been underpinned by the dogs.

If DI Redwood wants to test anything he could do no better than to use any newfound forensic skills to find out where Madeleine WAS first
and then he might get a clue where Madeleine went and as she was  being removed she might have left a forensic trail elsewhwere.

Finding the alleged abductor first and working backwards towards where Madeleine was is never going to work. Simply because your
alleged abductor has to be forensically linked to 5a and Madeleine herself.

SY's theory appears to be find the abductor(s) and then attempt to find some of Madeleine's DNA from something in their possssion  and try and match any
DNA found in 5a with the abductor as well - say on curtains or hair etc. That is a very long shot indeed in my opinion.

No Madeleine in 5a means there cannot be an abductor in 5a. She couldn't have been in there to be removed.

They have to establish the fact that she was in 5a  to be taken first in  my opinion.


They have the finest control samples to test against.

They have plenty of readouts from the FSS and INML as to all forensic evidence collected and the DNA within it ( mixed or otherwise)

Nothing wrong with testing the hairs against these control samples if they can?

Basically a total review of all the forensic collections might be useful.

It may reveal somethings that they had not initially considered.

Perhaps the Express may have considered a few things too?

All opinion though.

XTC wrote:

noddy100 wrote:Do you think the MSM know what is coming perhaps behind the scenes of newspapers etc they know what is coming and so have no fear of
litigation? Or am I being hopelessly optimistic

noddy100

That's an interesting view of things.

From The Express article;


“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.

“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.

“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.


One of the non identified people is the person they are seeking to find namely: Madeleine McCann.

This may be in 5a and/or the Scenic or perhaps elsewhere?


The FSS struggled to even match the hair colouring of Madeleine if I remember correctly so as far as the hair studying goes
then why not. The more DNA markers you can test against the better I imagine. Madeleine was not blonde by the way.

They now have ( or should have?) a film print and analysis of Madeleine's Nuclear DNA. Plenty of markers there to try and match
collected samples against should they wish to do so and not just the hair.

432 human hairs and 98 unknown and 19 partial matches.


Can we assume from these figures that the INML/PJ/FSS/LP/ OG  know who these ' known ' hairs belong to?

Can they be excluded?

The 98 plus 19 partial matched hairs are therefore unknown?

They could be people who are not on a DNA database or those who didn't give DNA samples by mouth swab.

That's a lot of people to test for.

In my humble opinion this is what can happen when you are soley searching for potential abductors and not the abducted person.

There is a whole world to aim at when really your search should concentrate on the small world of PdL and where the events were
alleged to have taken place.

The dog indications require corroborative back up by further forensic evidence. The finding of this evidence is more important
than the finding of an alleged abductor. The abductor  is only an allegation whereas the dogs are an indication ( indicating to something
that should be investigated  further ) and because that avenue  has not been explored further and dispensed with then it remains that
there is no proof of an abductor forensically. That is, someone who shouldn't have been in 5a was in 5a.

Back to Madeleine - a person who most certainly should have been in 5a - but not the Scenic.

As far as I'm aware no trace of Madeleine has been found in 5a. We've had control samples from the parents matched to the pillowcase
brought from Rothley and even a bloodspot in a cardboard frame ( Nuclear DNA?) received on the 12/10/07 at the FSS.

As good a set of markers to test forensic collections against as you could find. Yet, despite all these assets not a trace of Madeleine
has been found where she should have been and a trace has been found where she shouldn't have been underpinned by the dogs.

If DI Redwood wants to test anything he could do no better than to use any newfound forensic skills to find out where Madeleine WAS first
and then he might get a clue where Madeleine went and as she was  being removed she might have left a forensic trail elsewhwere.

Finding the alleged abductor first and working backwards towards where Madeleine was is never going to work. Simply because your
alleged abductor has to be forensically linked to 5a and Madeleine herself.

SY's theory appears to be find the abductor(s) and then attempt to find some of Madeleine's DNA from something in their possssion  and try and match any
DNA found in 5a with the abductor as well - say on curtains or hair etc. That is a very long shot indeed in my opinion.

No Madeleine in 5a means there cannot be an abductor in 5a. She couldn't have been in there to be removed.

They have to establish the fact that she was in 5a  to be taken first in  my opinion.


They have the finest control samples to test against.

They have plenty of readouts from the FSS and INML as to all forensic evidence collected and the DNA within it ( mixed or otherwise)

Nothing wrong with testing the hairs against these control samples if they can?

Basically a total review of all the forensic collections might be useful.

It may reveal somethings that they had not initially considered.

Perhaps the Express may have considered a few things too?

All opinion though.

They should have been able to obtain DNA samples from the clothing Maddie was wearing the day she was allegedly abducted, clothing she had worn on previous days such as underwear, swimsuit, shoes, slippers etc.
There should also have been her DNA on the bedding from the bed she allegedly slept in (though i would have tested all the bedding in the apartment)The hairbrush ( they would have obtained plenty of hairs and could match them up to the parents, the twins, Maddie, the bead that kate gently removed from Maddie's hair, towels, toothbrush ( yes i know their was only one allegedly, again they should be able to see whose DNA was on it and eliminate it and
Cuddlecat.

when they presented something for the dogs to sniff and then track her, why did they give them a towel which could contain anyones DNA and would explain the dogs tracking to the supermarket ( if they scented one or both the mccanns or someone else and since the donor would be live they could track them to the supermarket. Why not give them something that would likely contain only or mostly Maddie's scent?

Why was there so little trace of Maddie and even the twins in the apartment?
The apartment should have been swamped with DNA from all the children since they tend to leak at both ends and there would be saliva, sweat, tears, snot, urine, faeces, hairs and so on.
The place should have been covered in toddler fingerprints nose prints and anything else toddlers do.

Instead we have an apartment that looked way too clean and tidy considering there were three toddlers in there for a week.

It isn't just what is there that shouldn't be that arouses suspicion.
It is also what isn't there that should be that arouses suspicion.

The latter can indicate a thorough, if not forensic clean up.
This then begs the question, if the parents / children do not have OCD regarding cleanliness, why would the apartment be almost forensically clean, even to the living room curtains being washed?

This only makes sense if the apartment had been cleaned to conceal a crime or evidence of a crime, in thi case the death of Madeleine.

Why then would they need to conceal Maddie's death even to disposing of her body thus preventing an autopsy?

An accident wouldn't warrant such a cover up , since they happen all the time on vacations, as we see in the papers almost daily.

An overdose could be explained away as Maddie found the tablets and ate them thinking they were candy, something the mccanns would be familiar with.

This leads me to wonder if they were forced to cover up her death and disposal since allowing an autopsy would reveal a cause of death that could not be easily explained away as an accident.
Was there perhaps evidence of prior physical abuse such as bruises, cuts and grazes, fractures which had healed, old scars, signs on sexual abuse perhaps?
Would their refusal to allow the medical records reveal perhaps frequent UTI's, regular trips to the GP or hospital, signs of medical health problems associated with coloboma or perhaps other health problems such as autism
Were there no visits to the GP?
Visits that were expected such as vaccinations or scheduled visits expected with health issues such as monitoring her coloboma and any  associated health problems which never took place ( perhaps indicating they self medicated/prescribed)

Instead of seeing the expected would they instead be seeing the unexpected?

Perhaps even there were doubts about who was the father?
Looks alone don't guarantee she was gerry's since donors are chosen that look like  which ever parent(s) so the child will look like part of the family and not stick out like a sore thumb)
Maybe gerry thought he was and it turns out he wasn't and they didn't tell him.
Maybe kate wasn't the bio mom and donor eggs were used ?

It may in part explain why she never bonded with Maddie.

IVF children do tend to have a higher risk of health issues.

IVF is also considered a sin in the catholic church

The medical records could be revealing in what is learned about  health issues, parentage and so on.

Bank records could also reveal perhaps they were having financial difficulties ( it would explain the mortgage payments)

Both could provide a motive.

What is clear is that all of thgem need to be hauled in for questioning under caution, all at the same time in different stations (making sure their phones are out of reach to prevent surreptitious texting) and then statements compared in real time and discrepancies  pursued and investigated.

None of the abductors they have promoted tractorman etc would have been in the car so interesting they are looking at that

noddy100 wrote:None of the abductors they have promoted tractorman etc would have been in the car so interesting they are looking at that

And let us not forget this
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Maddie ‘died from tablets overdose’
metrowebukmetro Thursday 13 Sep 2007 9:18 pm
Maddie overdosed?
Forensic evidence shows Madeleine McCann died of an overdose of sleeping pills, it was reported last night.
Bodily fluids found in the boot of the car the McCanns rented 25 days after Madeleine went missing showed she had been sedated, said a French newspaper which claimed to have seen the evidence.
France Soir said DNA results of the fluids showed the four-year-old had swallowed enough sleeping pills to ’cause an overdose’.
Guilhem Buttut, an investigative reporter, said he had seen ‘hard evidence’ about Madeleine’s death in a report now in the hands of Portuguese prosecutors.
He said toxicological tests carried out on the liquids ‘proved the little girl had ingested medicines, without doubt sleeping pills, in quantities large enough to cause an overdose’.
Sources linked to the investigation revealed earlier this week that police discovered an 88 per cent DNA match to Madeleine in the boot of the McCanns’ rented Renault Scenic.
Clumps of hair were also reported to have been found in the boot, allegedly showing that her body had been in it.

Scientifically, it would be possible to test such bodily fluids for drugs, including an overdose of sleeping pills.
The news came as Portuguese media reported that police want to question Kate McCann again over the disappearance of her daughter.
Police may also quiz her about her diary. It has been suggested that the diary has been seen by detectives who took photocopies, but a request is being filed for possession so it can be examined in more detail.
Portuguese newspapers said yesterday that they had seen the photocopies of extracts.
Correio da Manha claimed Mrs McCann wrote in the diary that her children are ‘hysterical’ and exhausted her.
It also claimed her husband gave her little help with family chores.
It added: ‘She complains frequently that her children are “hysterical” and speaks of Madeleine as a child whose excess activity exhausts her.
She tells also how Gerry doesn’t help her with the family chores and that she has to cope alone with her two youngest children.’
The daily Publico claimed Mrs McCann’s worries about her children’s behaviour and her difficulties disciplining them were contained in the diary.
Sources close to the McCanns said they were not aware of police plans for a second interrogation.
‘This is speculation, not fact,’ said one.

Thanks petermac have never seen that before.
The reference to 'clumps' of hair has jade me feel quite ill 

The sedation, plus Kate's 'what do you mean you woke up?' comment, has rather sinister implications imo. I don't believe M would have accidentally eaten sleeping pills. Rather, she was being routinely sedated for the purposes of abuse and happened to wake up early during one such occasion. The dose was increased next time but unfortunately she didnt wake up

PeterMac wrote:

noddy100 wrote:None of the abductors they have promoted tractorman etc would have been in the car so interesting they are looking at that

And let us not forget this
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Maddie ‘died from tablets overdose’
metrowebukmetro Thursday 13 Sep 2007 9:18 pm
Maddie overdosed?
Forensic evidence shows Madeleine McCann died of an overdose of sleeping pills, it was reported last night.
Bodily fluids found in the boot of the car the McCanns rented 25 days after Madeleine went missing showed she had been sedated, said a French newspaper which claimed to have seen the evidence.
France Soir said DNA results of the fluids showed the four-year-old had swallowed enough sleeping pills to ’cause an overdose’.
Guilhem Buttut, an investigative reporter, said he had seen ‘hard evidence’ about Madeleine’s death in a report now in the hands of Portuguese prosecutors.
He said toxicological tests carried out on the liquids ‘proved the little girl had ingested medicines, without doubt sleeping pills, in quantities large enough to cause an overdose’.
Sources linked to the investigation revealed earlier this week that police discovered an 88 per cent DNA match to Madeleine in the boot of the McCanns’ rented Renault Scenic.
Clumps of hair were also reported to have been found in the boot, allegedly showing that her body had been in it.

Scientifically, it would be possible to test such bodily fluids for drugs, including an overdose of sleeping pills.
The news came as Portuguese media reported that police want to question Kate McCann again over the disappearance of her daughter.
Police may also quiz her about her diary. It has been suggested that the diary has been seen by detectives who took photocopies, but a request is being filed for possession so it can be examined in more detail.
Portuguese newspapers said yesterday that they had seen the photocopies of extracts.
Correio da Manha claimed Mrs McCann wrote in the diary that her children are ‘hysterical’ and exhausted her.
It also claimed her husband gave her little help with family chores.
It added: ‘She complains frequently that her children are “hysterical” and speaks of Madeleine as a child whose excess activity exhausts her.
She tells also how Gerry doesn’t help her with the family chores and that she has to cope alone with her two youngest children.’
The daily Publico claimed Mrs McCann’s worries about her children’s behaviour and her difficulties disciplining them were contained in the diary.
Sources close to the McCanns said they were not aware of police plans for a second interrogation.
‘This is speculation, not fact,’ said one.

Wow, unreal. A lot of us have thought the children were sedated in this case. Why were those two never taken into custody and charged then? Also how would an OD of sleeping pills explain the blood evidence by the dogs?

noddy100 wrote:Thanks petermac have never seen that before.
The reference to 'clumps' of hair has jade me feel quite ill 

I agree it sounds horrible. Maybe her hair got caught up on something in the boot of the car as whoever removed her from there probably didn't notice if they were in a hurry
This reminds me of little Caylee Anthony where cadaver evidence was in the boot of Casey Anthony's car

biggles wrote:The sedation, plus Kate's 'what do you mean you woke up?' comment, has rather sinister implications imo. I don't believe M would have accidentally eaten sleeping pills. Rather, she was being routinely sedated for the purposes of abuse and happened to wake up early during one such occasion. The dose was increased next time but unfortunately she didnt wake up

Are you referring to Kate asking Madeleine that? Was that the crying episode when Madeleine asked her mother why she didn't come when her and Sean were crying the night before?

Also here,

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Just wondering ,if we may need to more carefull of what we write at this point ,could we be a problem if and when this came to trial ? I would hate to think so ? joyce1938

joyce1938 wrote:Just wondering ,if we may need to more carefull of what we write at this point ,could we be a problem if and when this came to trial ? I would hate to think so ? joyce1938

Not sure?? It has already been written about in MSM and discussed on various internet blogs including this one about sedating the children and is speculation at this point, but would possibly account for why the twins didn't wake up with all the disturbance in the apartment after it was discovered that Madeleine was missing.

Thanks for your reply josse, you might be right on this ,joyce1938