The creche enquiry

uppatoffee wrote:Moa, I have to say I pay very little attention when I sign my daughter in to the crèche locally. My mind is often wandering, or I am talking to the crèche workers, so I quite often use different date and time formats often copying what the person above me has written. This can mean I sign in with one style and out with another. My signature also changes a lot! However I must say I never sign in with my married name and out with my maiden name! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

rainbow-fairy wrote:

uppatoffee wrote:Moa, I have to say I pay very little attention when I sign my daughter in to the crèche locally. My mind is often wandering, or I am talking to the crèche workers, so I quite often use different date and time formats often copying what the person above me has written. This can mean I sign in with one style and out with another. My signature also changes a lot! However I must say I never sign in with my married name and out with my maiden name! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

uppatoffee, I agree with you. When my smallest was in nursery twice a week, I wouldn't have necessarily noticed the absence or otherwise of specific children. I'm an observant person mostly too. We have to remember that these people were 'on holiday', much alcohol being imbibed all of which would alter observations. I would think a holiday creche would be a bit more free and easy than daycare? Mind, I've never been abroad so I'm only guessing...
I DO think the creche records are highly important though, perhaps more so than we maybe realise. Its telling that PJ had some withheld, IMO

Moa wrote:My point was , that if someone signed in two names and times at the same time then they probably would have used the same format on both time signings.

Not if they were trying to cover their tracks. They would make it look as different as possible.


As for looking and signing in time in the same format as the one above, well mccanns where the only couple using the 14.30 format all the days all the pm time..So if Gerry was siging in the Naylor kid, why all of a sudden change to another format. I would think you write times on automatic without thinking of it so why change within a few seconds?

To make it look as obviously different as possible. It may be something done from a medical background !!!

As for why the chreche sheet on may 3 was written in a different time format, is because its written by a different person than the other days. Seems to be three different people signing the dates on the sheets.

It looks like the same person wrote the date for 30th, 1st and 2nd. But I agree, the person who wrote the date for the 3rd is different. I'm betting Catriona Baker did it all week and for some unknown reason, someone else did it on the 3rd.

Moa wrote:My point was , that if someone signed in two names and times at the same time then they probably would have used the same format on both time signings.

Not if they were trying to cover their tracks. They would make it look as different as possible.

And again, why didnt he make his hand writing look different then ?


As for looking and signing in time in the same format as the one above, well mccanns where the only couple using the 14.30 format all the days all the pm time..So if Gerry was siging in the Naylor kid, why all of a sudden change to another format. I would think you write times on automatic without thinking of it so why change within a few seconds?

To make it look as obviously different as possible. It may be something done from a medical background !!!


But why didnt he try do write the Naylor name different from his regular handwritting then and try not to write the obviouse letters differently, I guess that would be more normal to try do if you where trying to make a obvious difference ?
As for why the chreche sheet on may 3 was written in a different time format, is because its written by a different person than the other days. Seems to be three different people signing the dates on the sheets.

It looks like the same person wrote the date for 30th, 1st and 2nd. But I agree, the person who wrote the date for the 3rd is different. I'm betting Catriona Baker did it all week and for some unknown reason, someone else did it on the 3rd.

Stella wrote:

Moa wrote:My point was , that if someone signed in two names and times at the same time then they probably would have used the same format on both time signings.

Not if they were trying to cover their tracks. They would make it look as different as possible.

And again, why didnt he make his hand writing look different then ?

Moa, there are some things that the mind does even when you are trying to do something different. Certain letters is one of them and something that catches an awful lot of people out.


As for looking and signing in time in the same format as the one above, well mccanns where the only couple using the 14.30 format all the days all the pm time..So if Gerry was siging in the Naylor kid, why all of a sudden change to another format. I would think you write times on automatic without thinking of it so why change within a few seconds?

To make it look as obviously different as possible. It may be something done from a medical background !!!

But why didnt he try do write the Naylor name different from his regular handwritting then and try not to write the obviouse letters differently, I guess that would be more normal to try do if you where trying to make a obvious difference ?

If it was him, perhaps he thought it was different. Perhaps he never thought these sheets would get released for us all to see.
As for why the chreche sheet on may 3 was written in a different time format, is because its written by a different person than the other days. Seems to be three different people signing the dates on the sheets.

It looks like the same person wrote the date for 30th, 1st and 2nd. But I agree, the person who wrote the date for the 3rd is different. I'm betting Catriona Baker did it all week and for some unknown reason, someone else did it on the 3rd.

Here I disagree with you, to me it looks like three different people where signing the sheets. Dont you see the difference in the handwriting? I believe Cat only signed two of those sheets that week !

Then we will just have to agree to disagree here Moa. IMO, Cat's writing is consistent with every written date except the 3rd.
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Moa wrote:I also dont believe the Mccanns where that smart that they would preplan or even manage to pull a scam like this, sigining in another child on the chreche.... I think the answer is much simplerer than that. I will not give the Mccanns that much intellingent credit..( because from what I've seen they are bad actors and liers, they just couldn't have pulled it of )

Stella wrote:Even Gerry himself talks of another little girl !!!

Gerry McCann at the Leveson Inquiry 23/11/11

“One(scratching behind left ear) of the articles that springs to mind actually, (moving all objects now in front of him) was a piece in a Portuguese news paper, where somebody talking to the Prosecutor and was asking what he thought had happened and erh, there was a quote(Kate now looks up at Gerry) saying they didn’t know whether (eyebrows raised) if Madeleine was alive or dead and erh, I think (closes eyes) the phone line was probably dead and that translated into the front page of the Daily Mirror (Kate quickly grabs glass of water) with a photograph of Mad’line,(frowns and corrects himself) Madeleine with a headline she’s dead,(looks to Kate, Kate puts glass down loudly) which we saw at 11.00 O’clock at night, (Kate nervously looks up and down towards the same person) we’re trying to go to bed and obviously (frowns) that was one of the most distressing headlines that is presented(raises shoulders once) as if it’s factual and it was just taken from that supposition,(Kate scratching right shoulder and looks towards Gerry) I don’t know probability, it was incredible.”

Moa wrote:I think if you already made up your mind about what happenede, and only believe in that, when you seek you will always in some way find something to fit the theory you believe in...

My mind is open to anything and everything on here Moa, which is why I have only this year come round to seeing what I do now. If you can explain to me another perfectly innocent reason for two Fathers, both writing the letter A in the exact same distinct way, please feel free to enlighten me.

It could be lots of other reasons for him to say Mad'line without it meaning his talking about two girl? Maybe he was about to say Maddie, or was just nervouse..

This is the same man, who for the last 4+ years has been going on about she was never called Maddie. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Ask Milly Dowlers parents if they have ever got their daugher's name wrong. Or Ben Needham's Mother and I bet you they will both say never in a million years.

Believeing they all of a sudden

No Moa, not all of a sudden. For the last year and after closely studying all of the hand writing on all of the creche sheets, plus all the inconsistencies in the statements and the total lack of photos from Portugal and only one potential sighting of her, which focused on her shoes, so hardly a reliable identification.

had one more girl without this to be pre planned are a little bit hard to believe for me..

I would think it had to be pre planned, but that does not mean Kate oe even Maybe Gerry knew anything about it before it happened.

I deffenlty thing they're hiding something , but I believe its a much simpler and logical reason behind it..

Simple crimes are very easy to solve, this one is a little more complicated than that which is why it remains unsolved.

I don't have a definite theory I believe in, therefor I look at all sides of the evidence in the case and I don't try to fit my findings with a spesific theory...

That is your perogative Moa. I'm guessing you will now leave the creche enquiry thread alone as you do not believe there is anything wrong with the records, right?

and for Cat writing on the sheet for all days except may 3 ? Oh well there I think you just try to make it fit it in to your theory..

I have no theory as to why Cat did not start the sheet on the 3rd. Perhaps she was running late and someone else started it for her.

Why didnt she write her name then as she has done on all the other one she has written on ?

I don't know Moa, perhaps she was asked to write her name at the top of each page for the PJ to identify which group was Madeleine's group. But it's not Catriona's writing we are focussing on, it's Gerry's one.

And don't you see the difference in the handwriting? You are using this logic on Gerry and Naylor kids writing, the difference in the letters, but not using the same logic when looking at the chreche record writing from the staff? Maybe I understand you wrong but I find that very strange indeed...

I think you are missing the significance of the McCann and Naylor entries myself Moa.

So yes we deffently have to agree to disagree ! :)

Stella wrote:

Moa wrote:I think if you already made up your mind about what happenede, and only believe in that, when you seek you will always in some way find something to fit the theory you believe in...

My mind is open to anything and everything on here Moa, which is why I have only this year come round to seeing what I do now. If you can explain to me another perfectly innocent reason for two Fathers, both writing the letter A in the exact same distinct way, please feel free to enlighten me.

It could be lots of other reasons for him to say Mad'line without it meaning his talking about two girl? Maybe he was about to say Maddie, or was just nervouse..

This is the same man, who for the last 4+ years has been going on about she was never called Maddie. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Ask Milly Dowlers parents if they have ever got their daugher's name wrong. Or Ben Needham's Mother and I bet you they will both say never in a million years.

Believeing they all of a sudden

No Moa, not all of a sudden. For the last year and after closely studying all of the hand writing on all of the creche sheets, plus all the inconsistencies in the statements and the total lack of photos from Portugal and only one potential sighting of her, which focused on her shoes, so hardly a reliable identification.

had one more girl without this to be pre planned are a little bit hard to believe for me..

I would think it had to be pre planned, but that does not mean Kate oe even Maybe Gerry knew anything about it before it happened.

I deffenlty thing they're hiding something , but I believe its a much simpler and logical reason behind it..

Simple crimes are very easy to solve, this one is a little more complicated than that which is why it remains unsolved.

I don't have a definite theory I believe in, therefor I look at all sides of the evidence in the case and I don't try to fit my findings with a spesific theory...

That is your perogative Moa. I'm guessing you will now leave the creche enquiry thread alone as you do not believe there is anything wrong with the records, right?

and for Cat writing on the sheet for all days except may 3 ? Oh well there I think you just try to make it fit it in to your theory..

I have no theory as to why Cat did not start the sheet on the 3rd. Perhaps she was running late and someone else started it for her.

Why didnt she write her name then as she has done on all the other one she has written on ?

I don't know Moa, perhaps she was asked to write her name at the top of each page for the PJ to identify which group was Madeleine's group. But it's not Catriona's writing we are focussing on, it's Gerry's one.

And don't you see the difference in the handwriting? You are using this logic on Gerry and Naylor kids writing, the difference in the letters, but not using the same logic when looking at the chreche record writing from the staff? Maybe I understand you wrong but I find that very strange indeed...

I think you are missing the significance of the McCann and Naylor entries myself Moa.

So yes we deffently have to agree to disagree ! :)

Stella wrote:What we need to be asking ourselves Moa is this.

If there is something going on in the creche sheets, something that started as early as April 29th and we can all see this, it can only mean one thing. The deception started on the 29th and not the 3rd.

Moa wrote:If there is no answer to this case when the Twins have becomed teenager, I wonder what they will do, what they will believe and if they will come out in public to talk about this case at all. I wonder what they will think of it all....

Yankee wrote:The best thing the McCanns can do if truly innocent is to get the case reopened and co-operate with the investigation and get themselves officially cleared. That would put an end to any speculation they don't like being levelled at them.

Stella wrote:

pennylane wrote:Morning rainbow-fairy, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I agree with you about the trolls, only they don't so much as 'descend' upon us, as sit here (and elsewhere) ready to take any in-depth discussions off target, and into the realms of the ridiculous (imo).

That's right Pennylane, which is why it is very important to keep these very specific threads 'on topic'. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

In future, to protect the ongoing work on this thread, anything not relating to creche items will be moved elsewhere.

Stella wrote:

Yankee wrote:The best thing the McCanns can do if truly innocent is to get the case reopened and co-operate with the investigation and get themselves officially cleared. That would put an end to any speculation they don't like being levelled at them.

Great first post Yankee and welcome to the forum, I especially liked this bit and you are absolutely right !!!

Stella wrote:Moa, trust me, when I first went down this route, I too could not believe Madeleine's disappearence could ever be pre planned. Part of me even now refuses to accept this. The side of me that believes no one could willingly harm any child. But as we know, children are abused and die all the time at the hands of people they know and trust. Nearly 80% of all infanticides are committed by a parent, or someone close to a parent. We know that Hamish Campbell who is from a Homicide/Infanticide background, is part of the Scotland Yard team along with Simon Foy, from the Child Abuse Investigation Command. It's quite a set up don't you think?

Now, if you put the creche sheet evidence alongside the telephone activity and consider all the movements from all the key people, you will see a picture developing. You may not see this picture, I accept that. But it is very obvious to many that something started happening long before the alarm was raised. Measures were taken from the 29th to hide something. Just look at the tapas booking inconsistency. The group claim Rachel made the booking on the morning of the 29th. The receptionist said it was a man, that it was not Gerry and this man had Madeleine with him. Gerry leaves his telephone number at the creche almost every day, but then switches his phone off for 88 hours. Calls from Kate's phone are deleted from 10.16 on the 1st May, a total of around 20 calls on that day and the next. If a handwriting expert confirms that the creche sheets have been falsified from the 29th, the whole abduction scam comes crashing down and we will all be faced with finding out on what day Madeleine really died. It is then obvious the abduction scam was pre planned and carried out, just as the Portuguese are already claiming. But how did Madeleine die? Was it an accident? Where did it happen? If it was not on the 3rd, it could have been on any day and in any apartment. That is what you have to ask yourself.

At the end of the day. If the creche sheets are genuine and not fakes and IF, again it is a big IF, the handwriting is proven to have been falsified from the 29th. There is no other reason for them to have been falsified, other than Madeleine died before that very first entry. Everything else after that is a salvage operation.

What happened to Madeleine then you may ask? Well, I think the answer to that one lies with the original 'organiser'. The person who might have taken care of everything. All the holiday arrangements from start to finish. All of the invited people. All of the planned activities. All of the pre holiday plans whatever that may have been. I think the answers very much lie with them.

Think of the Gaspar statement and look to the wider circle of friends and acquaintances for those answers.

Stella wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I have to say Moa, 'my' theory and I am the only one who thinks this, is based on what I can see and get a feel for and it could be miles off the mark.

The organiser could have had plans for Madeleine, long before she stepped in the country. Mrs Gaspar told us what had happened on a previous holiday, something like "does Madeleine do this"? Something that involved Gerry and David remember. What if on this holiday to Portugal someone introduced them to like minded men? Maybe the tall thin man who made the block booking. What if all the children were being looked after in the one place at night and none of the parents had to go back and check on them? What if something happened to Madeleine and the group had been told it was an accident, when it was not? They would not have done an autopsy to find out the truth. So a much bigger crime could easily be hidden behind an accident like falling off a balcony and no one is the wiser. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Perhaps I should start writing murder mystery novels. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Stella wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I have to say Moa, 'my' theory and I am the only one who thinks this, is based on what I can see and get a feel for and it could be miles off the mark.

The organiser could have had plans for Madeleine, long before she stepped in the country. Mrs Gaspar told us what had happened on a previous holiday, something like "does Madeleine do this"? Something that involved Gerry and David remember. What if on this holiday to Portugal someone introduced them to like minded men? Maybe the tall thin man who made the block booking. What if all the children were being looked after in the one place at night and none of the parents had to go back and check on them? What if something happened to Madeleine and the group had been told it was an accident, when it was not? They would not have done an autopsy to find out the truth. So a much bigger crime could easily be hidden behind an accident like falling off a balcony and no one is the wiser. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Perhaps I should start writing murder mystery novels. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]