Re: Bernt Stellander interview

by AnneCGuedes 31.08.24 1:04

PeterMac wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
Death before he and later she came back from the Tapas bar.
In February 2012 I think. I invited PB for dinner and the following morning drove her and Joana Morais to PDL. We picked up Sofia de L (Astro) in Praia da Rocha and we had lunch at Paraiso. Joana was sick and I had a commitment, we left PDL around midnight. PB had found a room in the building across Agostinho da Silva St and had a clear view on G5A.

which means I missed you all by a few hours. Fate messes us all around.
I met Pat on the beach on what must have been the next day and we spend three days snooping and sleuthing and mucking around
And pushing up shutters and pacing things and timing things, and then had a look at the ‘Lawless Hinterlands” trying to imagine where the
“Hellish Lair: might be.
And then dropped her off with Natasha D
Pity we didn’t all meet

If I understand you right, you agree with Bernt’s Wednesday 2/5/7 date of death - Late evening or
Early hours of the morning 3/5/7 , depending on the amount of alcohol - OR anything else - consumed (?)

These are the tricks of fate ! Then Joana and Sofia had a close friendship, I never understood why this turned into hostility. Didn't you meet Ima (Parapono) once ? She was very much interested in the trial and stayed for a while at Joana Morais'.

Late evening, K was still angry because of the night before when G had invited the quiz lady to their table. Like BS, I think that M used to start the night in her parents' bed so as not to disturb the twins’ sleep and that she was carried to her bed when her parents were back home. Either K thought G had put M back in her bed (she didn't turn on the light to get into the bed under the window) or she saw M wasn't in her bed but thought she was still in her parents' bed. They discovered the truth in the morning.

by Cake Lover 31.08.24 8:14

If only just one of them had bothered to check that the children were all in bed.

by Nina 31.08.24 11:22

AnneCGuedes wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
Death before he and later she came back from the Tapas bar.
In February 2012 I think. I invited PB for dinner and the following morning drove her and Joana Morais to PDL. We picked up Sofia de L (Astro) in Praia da Rocha and we had lunch at Paraiso. Joana was sick and I had a commitment, we left PDL around midnight. PB had found a room in the building across Agostinho da Silva St and had a clear view on G5A.

which means I missed you all by a few hours. Fate messes us all around.
I met Pat on the beach on what must have been the next day and we spend three days snooping and sleuthing and mucking around
And pushing up shutters and pacing things and timing things, and then had a look at the ‘Lawless Hinterlands” trying to imagine where the
“Hellish Lair: might be.
And then dropped her off with Natasha D
Pity we didn’t all meet

If I understand you right, you agree with Bernt’s Wednesday 2/5/7 date of death - Late evening or
Early hours of the morning 3/5/7 , depending on the amount of alcohol - OR anything else - consumed (?)

These are the tricks of fate ! Then Joana and Sofia had a close friendship, I never understood why this turned into hostility. Didn't you meet Ima (Parapono) once ? She was very much interested in the trial and stayed for a while at Joana Morais'.

Late evening, K was still angry because of the night before when G had invited the quiz lady to their table. Like BS, I think that M used to start the night in her parents' bed so as not to disturb the twins’ sleep and that she was carried to her bed when her parents were back home. Either K thought G had put M back in her bed (she didn't turn on the light to get into the bed under the window) or she saw M wasn't in her bed but thought she was still in her parents' bed. They discovered the truth in the morning.

I have met Parapono she stayed with us for a week when we lived in Spain. I met her online and then built up a relationship. Sadly like many relationships we lost touch. She was also a friend to the late Kiko who was also a friend of ours and we met him and his wife many times.

by Liz Eagles 31.08.24 16:31

Nina wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
Death before he and later she came back from the Tapas bar.
In February 2012 I think. I invited PB for dinner and the following morning drove her and Joana Morais to PDL. We picked up Sofia de L (Astro) in Praia da Rocha and we had lunch at Paraiso. Joana was sick and I had a commitment, we left PDL around midnight. PB had found a room in the building across Agostinho da Silva St and had a clear view on G5A.

which means I missed you all by a few hours. Fate messes us all around.
I met Pat on the beach on what must have been the next day and we spend three days snooping and sleuthing and mucking around
And pushing up shutters and pacing things and timing things, and then had a look at the ‘Lawless Hinterlands” trying to imagine where the
“Hellish Lair: might be.
And then dropped her off with Natasha D
Pity we didn’t all meet

If I understand you right, you agree with Bernt’s Wednesday 2/5/7 date of death - Late evening or
Early hours of the morning 3/5/7 , depending on the amount of alcohol - OR anything else - consumed (?)

These are the tricks of fate ! Then Joana and Sofia had a close friendship, I never understood why this turned into hostility. Didn't you meet Ima (Parapono) once ? She was very much interested in the trial and stayed for a while at Joana Morais'.

Late evening, K was still angry because of the night before when G had invited the quiz lady to their table. Like BS, I think that M used to start the night in her parents' bed so as not to disturb the twins’ sleep and that she was carried to her bed when her parents were back home. Either K thought G had put M back in her bed (she didn't turn on the light to get into the bed under the window) or she saw M wasn't in her bed but thought she was still in her parents' bed. They discovered the truth in the morning.
I have met Parapono she stayed with us for a week when we lived in Spain. I met her online and then built up a relationship. Sadly like many relationships we lost touch. She was also a friend to the late Kiko who was also a friend of ours and we met him and his wife many times.

Ima also went to France and England.

by AnneCGuedes 31.08.24 18:29

Liz Eagles wrote:
Nina wrote:I have met Parapono she stayed with us for a week when we lived in Spain. I met her online and then built up a relationship. Sadly like many relationships we lost touch. She was also a friend to the late Kiko who was also a friend of ours and we met him and his wife many times.
Ima also went to France and England.

Ima had a bad experience in France with "Châtelaine". She went to London for the TB's trial. I met her at the Lisbon Court of Justice. She had only a couch in JM's flat, so she came to my place and after that stayed with me each time the MC trial had a new development. Last Spring she had a very disabling problem in her shoulder : calcium deposition within the structure of the tendons that seems to have been finally well treated with the Barbotage procedure.

by **PeterMac** 31.08.24 19:30

Cake Lover wrote:If only just one of them had bothered to check that the children were all in bed.

The only difference is that Bernt thinks they found her dead that night (2/5/7), rather than the next morning.
It is a small point, and to a certain extent not terribly important in the bigger overall scenario
except that the McCanns might have taken steps that night (2/5/7) and early hours of the morning of 3/5/7
to 'deal with the situation' rather than doing the whole thing the following morning (3/5/7)

That includes secretion of the body, disposal to first hiding place, First draft of Scene 1 of the Play,
ensuring that Kate 'agrees' with Gerry's plan. and much more involving allocating rôles to the other Tapas Actors.

Of course all the witnesses (so-called) were being asked about Thursday 3/5/7, and no one seems to have asked in detail about previous nights.
which may be why so many had nothing much to say.

Bernt points out that everything important in Kate's book starts on 3/5/7. And in her Journal / Diary
He discusses this at some length,

by AnneCGuedes 31.08.24 21:11

AnneCGuedes wrote:
Liz Eagles wrote:
Nina wrote:I have met Parapono she stayed with us for a week when we lived in Spain. I met her online and then built up a relationship. Sadly like many relationships we lost touch. She was also a friend to the late Kiko who was also a friend of ours and we met him and his wife many times.
Ima also went to France and England.

Ima had a bad experience in France with "Châtelaine". She went to London for the TB's trial. I met her at the Lisbon Court of Justice. She had only a couch in JM's flat, so she came to my place and after that stayed with me each time the MC trial had a new development. Last Spring she had a very disabling problem in her shoulder : calcium deposition within the structure of the tendons that seems to have been finally well treated with the Barbotage procedure.

I sent her a message on WA telling her we had mentioned her to-day. She's fine, her cat is fine, her shoulder too and she's for the moment voluntering at the Noorderzon festival of Groningen.

by Nina 31.08.24 22:59

AnneCGuedes wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
Liz Eagles wrote:
Nina wrote:I have met Parapono she stayed with us for a week when we lived in Spain. I met her online and then built up a relationship. Sadly like many relationships we lost touch. She was also a friend to the late Kiko who was also a friend of ours and we met him and his wife many times.
Ima also went to France and England.

Ima had a bad experience in France with "Châtelaine". She went to London for the TB's trial. I met her at the Lisbon Court of Justice. She had only a couch in JM's flat, so she came to my place and after that stayed with me each time the MC trial had a new development. Last Spring she had a very disabling problem in her shoulder : calcium deposition within the structure of the tendons that seems to have been finally well treated with the Barbotage procedure.

I sent her a message on WA telling her we had mentioned her to-day. She's fine, her cat is fine, her shoulder too and she's for the moment voluntering at the Noorderzon festival of Groningen.

Please give her my best wishes. No longer in Spain but back in the UK. We were the folk with all the rescue dogs in the Montes de Malaga if she cannot recall us.

by Shash T 01.09.24 0:15

PeterMac wrote:
Cake Lover wrote:If only just one of them had bothered to check that the children were all in bed.

The only difference is that Bernt thinks they found her dead that night (2/5/7), rather than the next morning.
It is a small point, and to a certain extent not terribly important in the bigger overall scenario
except that the McCanns might have taken steps that night (2/5/7) and early hours of the morning of 3/5/7
to 'deal with the situation' rather than doing the whole thing the following morning (3/5/7)

That includes secretion of the body, disposal to first hiding place, First draft of Scene 1 of the Play,
ensuring that Kate 'agrees' with Gerry's plan. and much more involving allocating rôles to the other Tapas Actors.

Of course all the witnesses (so-called) were being asked about Thursday 3/5/7, and no one seems to have asked in detail about previous nights.
which may be why so many had nothing much to say.

Bernt points out that everything important in Kate's book starts on 3/5/7. And in her Journal / Diary
He discusses this at some length,

If they found her dead the night of 2/5/7, or even the morning of 3/5/7, does this give them enough time to forensically clean the apartment, come up with a plan and write time lines?

by AnneCGuedes 01.09.24 0:23

Shash T wrote:

If they found her dead the night of 2/5/7, or even the morning of 3/5/7, does this give them enough time to forensically clean the apartment, come up with a plan and write time lines?

You may die without spilling any blood (for instance positional smothering). Frankly I think that their first reaction must have been sideration, horror, despair.

by AnneCGuedes 01.09.24 0:32

Cake Lover wrote:If only just one of them had bothered to check that the children were all in bed.

Imo that's the key. Had they not been so stupidly angry with each other, they'd have checked (remember "we let her down"). Was it too late for M ? Likely, but they could have called an emergency nb, no MC case would have started, the media wouldn't have known a word of it and M would have been given a funeral.

by Shash T 01.09.24 2:01

AnneCGuedes wrote:
Shash T wrote:

If they found her dead the night of 2/5/7, or even the morning of 3/5/7, does this give them enough time to forensically clean the apartment, come up with a plan and write time lines?

You may die without spilling any blood (for instance positional smothering). Frankly I think that their first reaction must have been sideration, horror, despair.

Thank you Anne for your reply.
So not needing to do all the cleaning I thought they'd be doing, then they would have time for the planning. (I was imagining a good couple of days to be sure the place was clean enough, in between taking the kids to the club, tennis, jogging, and whatever else. ) big grin

by Ladyinred 01.09.24 7:14

AnneCGuedes wrote:
Cake Lover wrote:If only just one of them had bothered to check that the children were all in bed.

Imo that's the key. Had they not been so stupidly angry with each other, they'd have checked (remember "we let her down"). Was it too late for M ? Likely, but they could have called an emergency nb, no MC case would have started, the media wouldn't have known a word of it and M would have been given a funeral.

Too much alcohol affected their behaviour and decision-making that evening.

by **PeterMac** 01.09.24 9:48

Kate told us that the Body was swiftly removed.

– she must have been taken out of the apartment within minutes. Did they really believe that a dog could smell the ‘odour of death’ three months later from a body that had been removed so swiftly?

McCann, Kate. Madeleine (p. 219). Transworld Digital. Kindle Edition.

TWICE in two sentences.

And we recall, or should do, (Long post on another thread somewhere) that cadaverine is a breakdown produce of the amino acid Lysine, which is present in blood, and in children in greater proportion than in adults. It was not necessary for the body to have lain on the floor for a long time. The blood in the grout between the tiles would have decomposed and produced the chemical to be detected by the dog

by Cake Lover 01.09.24 9:58

Ladyinred wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
Cake Lover wrote:If only just one of them had bothered to check that the children were all in bed.

Imo that's the key. Had they not been so stupidly angry with each other, they'd have checked (remember "we let her down"). Was it too late for M ? Likely, but they could have called an emergency nb, no MC case would have started, the media wouldn't have known a word of it and M would have been given a funeral.

Too much alcohol affected their behaviour and decision-making that evening.

They were sober (as far as we know) when they decided to leave their three babies to fend for themselves, though.

by Amy Dean 01.09.24 10:07

Supposedly the three other sets of parents also thought it was a good idea to leave their children unattended.

Yes, the Paynes had a baby monitor but surely that's only suitable when you and the children are in the same house.

by sandancer 01.09.24 10:53

" a body that had been removed so swiftly " !

Whose body is Kate referring to ? They constantly " told " us Madeleine had been " abducted " and was " an alive and findable child " . So who was the dead body ?
How did Kate know said body was removed swiftly ?
It was confirmed no one has died in apartment 5a .
Kate likes to tell us she " knows KNOWS " more than we do because she was there !

" I know what happened wasn't due to us leaving them sleeping , I know it happened under other circumstances " !

by crusader 01.09.24 11:42

If "it" happened under other circumstances, and not by them leaving the children sleeping, then "it" must have happened during the day in the short time they spent with Madeleine.
As Kate told us, she knows because she was there.

by Silentscope 01.09.24 14:14

"However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.

"One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night.
She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening."

They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.

Source: https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm

The McCanns wanted to know if the PJ Suspected them of using Drugs on Madeleine and wanted them to believe that she was Alive on Wednesday.

by AnneCGuedes 01.09.24 14:21

Shash T wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
Shash T wrote:

If they found her dead the night of 2/5/7, or even the morning of 3/5/7, does this give them enough time to forensically clean the apartment, come up with a plan and write time lines?

You may die without spilling any blood (for instance positional smothering). Frankly I think that their first reaction must have been sideration, horror, despair.
Thank you Anne for your reply.
So not needing to do all the cleaning I thought they'd be doing, then they would have time for the planning. (I was imagining a good couple of days to be sure the place was clean enough, in between taking the kids to the club, tennis, jogging, and whatever else. )

Actually, Shash T, I don't think they spent any time in planning. There was only one place to deposit the body (Mark Harison said it was obvious), above all that would be reversible, the ocean taking and giving back, allowing a funeral.

by AnneCGuedes 01.09.24 14:23

Silentscope wrote:"However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.

"One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night.
She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening."

They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.

Source: https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm

The McCanns wanted to know if the PJ Suspected them of using Drugs on Madeleine and wanted them to believe that she was Alive on Wednesday.

Absolutely.

by AnneCGuedes 01.09.24 14:44

Amy Dean wrote:Supposedly the three other sets of parents also thought it was a good idea to leave their children unattended.

Yes, the Paynes had a baby monitor but surely that's only suitable when you and the children are in the same house.

The Paynes' baby monitor was high tech, it would send an alert if the contact between transmitter and receiver was cut off.

by AnneCGuedes 01.09.24 14:49

Cake Lover wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:
AnneCGuedes wrote:
Cake Lover wrote:If only just one of them had bothered to check that the children were all in bed.

Imo that's the key. Had they not been so stupidly angry with each other, they'd have checked (remember "we let her down"). Was it too late for M ? Likely, but they could have called an emergency nb, no MC case would have started, the media wouldn't have known a word of it and M would have been given a funeral.

Too much alcohol affected their behaviour and decision-making that evening.
They were sober (as far as we know) when they decided to leave their three babies to fend for themselves, though.

Lack of imagination. A child by definition isn't able to take the right decision if something occurs. Like an earthquake.

by Cake Lover 01.09.24 15:12

Or a fire. Leaving a three year old in charge of two babies shouldn't occur to anybody, ever.

by crusader 01.09.24 15:52

Silentscope wrote...
"One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeline's revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night.
She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening."

Kate had already made a statement at 2-20 on the 4th May saying Madeleine had told her she cried , so why did she mention about it on the 5th to Stephen Markley?
Gerry also said the same in his 4th May statement.

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