Sonia Poulton has Dr Perlin on her Rise show - 8am Friday 1st July

by **Jill Havern** 29.06.22 8:13

Could This Man Be The Key To Solving What Happened to Madeleine McCann? | RISE WITH BNT SPECIAL

by **Jill Havern** 01.07.22 11:12

I don't think the video works, so here's the link - starts around 27 mins with Dr Perlin if you don't want to listen to her drivel for the first 27 minutes
https://brandnewtube.com/watch/GGuoewKZOSPhNct

by **crusader** 01.07.22 13:03

I wonder why the Portuguese police ignored Mark Perlin's offer of help.

Very telling why the McCann's are not pushing for his help as well, what happened to leaving no stone unturned.

If we and thousands more of the population start causing a ruckus and demanding that Mark Perlin be allowed to test the DNA samples, will they go missing.

That would only prove there is a massive cover up still going on and some big secret must be kept hidden.

Where are the whistle blowers when we need them.

by Guest 01.07.22 13:50

I am still very sceptical about Dr Perlin's methodology.

Sonia Poulton never changes, it is and always has been about her and her alone. Her reaction to everything she takes on board oozes sensationalism, just watching that video she's champing at the bit to get back in the saddle, to be the one talking.

Dr Perlin on the other hand appears to be using the opportunity to market his product - that is what I don't like.

If he harbours some miracle DNA detector to assist criminal investigation, or whatever else, then why is it trade marked to him alone - surely any technology wizard aided by a forensic scientist and possibly a medic, could match Dr Perlin's product.

The methodology is no secret, he tells the world about it but why is he so covetous about his particular trade mark.

I don't think the authorities refusal to take advantage of Dr Perlin's offer is suspicious in any way, I believe it to be more a case of authenticity doubt.

Still, having said that, if it keeps the case of missing Madeleine McCann in the headlines, in a way closer to the origins of the case rather than subsequent window dressing, better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

In my view it would be more helpful if all these clingons would concentrate more on the known facts and evidence of the case as opposed to marketing their product and/or careers.

That's not to say I dismiss the distinct possibility that the Forensic Science Service misled the investigation - I still can't understand why, in truth, the samples were sent to a British laboratory for analysis. That simple fact in itself raises eyebrows.

Of course, this subject has been thrashed out on CMOMM in the past but if it keeps debate afloat then bravo! I didn't believe then, I don't believe now this issue will ever be satisfactorily resolved.

by Liz Eagles 01.07.22 14:09

There is no telling where DNA samples are stored, to which authority they belong and to the court system accepting any findings.

Perlin shot himself in the foot, whether intentionally to promote his service or not, his American marketing style isn't good enough imo. Netflix abounds, mention Maddie.

by **crusader** 01.07.22 14:43

There is one way to find out whether he is right or not, let him have the DNA evidence, it wont cost a penny.

The McCann's didn't waste time contacting the Australian Danie Krugel and his secret locator.

Let Mark Perlin have his chance and see what he comes up with, nothing ventured nothing gained.

by **Silentscope** 01.07.22 16:05

Dr. Perlins explanation regarding Brückner being able to DEMAND the DNA Data if he was ever really Charged, in order to better conduct his Defense is telling.

Another reason why Herr Wolters has not yet done so?

by Guest 01.07.22 16:07

As far as I understand, Perlin is not wishing for forensic samples per se but the FFS data that led to the conclusions documented in the PJ files.

If the UK and Portuguese forensic science laboratories and/or respective police forces are unconvinced by Perlin's methodology, nothing whatsoever can be gained by indulging his offer - any results negative or positive would only confound an already muddled issue. Especially in the public domain.

I totally agree - mention the name Madeleine McCann and you're automatically catapulted into the limelight.

Good marketing ploy yes

! Ask Gerald McCann, he knows - he was there.

by Liz Eagles 01.07.22 22:29

Perlin is hardly the soul of discretion, peddling his wares and speaking to the media about a particular case he would like doesn't really endear him to those in authority.

by Guest 02.07.22 1:11

Quite so ^^^ 2thumbs

.

by **crusader** 02.07.22 8:11

If Perlin's claims are true, what's wrong with blowing his own trumpet?

It's not about personalities, it's about a missing child and if there is a chance he can help why not.

Maybe it is all pie in the sky, but if it was my child and there was a chance, no matter how small, there was some new technology that maybe could help, I would be interested in it.

Perlin is not a crackpot, there is nothing he can do that would harm in the search for Madeleine.

by Liz Eagles 02.07.22 10:43

Getting down to absolute basics, there is nothing Perlin can offer to any investigating authority because there is no clarity as to who actually takes the lead. One would think that as the crime was committed in Portugal, Portuguese authorities own the case. As a UK citizen Madeleine Mccann is entitled to an investigation by UK authorities. Drop in the farcical German intervention and there's your dog's dinner.

by **crusader** 02.07.22 12:02

Perlin did offer his service to the Portuguese police and got no reply, it's a dead duck as the saying goes.

Nobody in authority is interested.

by Doug D 02.07.22 12:51

‘No stone unturned………’???????

Sonia Poulton has Dr Perlin on her Rise show - 8am Friday 1st July Article-1017189-011489E500000578-601_468x286

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1017189/Where-night-Kate-What-grandmother-said-told-Madeleine-snatched.html

Quite happy to use dotty psychics, Daniel Krugel’s nonsense ‘impossible’ machine, dodgy Spanish investigators, Oakley International (Halligen), non-existent AIG (Cowley, Edgar), etc. etc. and pay out fortunes of other peoples money, but when a scientific analysis of data already held (analysis previously proven to have been used successfully) is offered for free, which may help clarify the seemingly whitewashed John Lowe FSS report, everybody runs a mile.

Let Perlin blow his own trumpet. If he fails to perform, so be it. There is absolutely nothing to be lost, which is why an honest investigation would jump at his offer.

Similar story with ‘Britain’s most prominent forensic scientist’ Angela Gallop, who offered to help back in 2019, but again nothing came of it.

From the company website, (the information has never been challenged that I can see):

‘Cybergenetics was founded in 1994. The initial focus was genetics, using computers to automate the interpretation of DNA data for medical diagnosis and gene discovery. Five years later, the company transitioned into forensic analysis, helping to eliminate backlogs and solving the DNA mixture problem.

The company’s TrueAllele:registered: technology helped identify victim remains in the World Trade Center disaster. Ten years of continual refinement led to routine use in most of the United States and abroad. Dozens of empirical studies form the basis of TrueAllele’s acceptance as reliable science.

In a 2009 conviction, TrueAllele identified a murderer through his victim’s fingernails. In a 2016 exoneration, TrueAllele helped free an innocent man after twenty four years in prison. In hundreds of criminal cases, attorneys and investigators use Cybergenetics "probabilistic" genotyping to find truth in DNA.’

https://www.cybgen.com/company/

Plenty of other positive cases and information on the website.

It doesn’t matter if there is no clarity about who ‘owns’ the case (has to be Portugal), if the Mc’s and their advisors had the slightest notion that they could change any perception of the DNA analysis and dog’s findings, why have they not been absolutely screaming for this?

Even if it came back a failure and backed up Lowe’s ‘inconclusive’ report they would have lost absolutely nothing, but if something positive came out of it?

Is that the real reason they don’t even want to go there, with OG similarly pressurising the Portuguese to follow suit?

by Liz Eagles 02.07.22 12:59

Life is a little easier for both OG and Portugal now there is a German scapegoat in the offing.

I would love to think the Portuguese and UK police have done their best but in my heart I know that's not true.

by Guest 02.07.22 13:27

Doug D wrote:Let Perlin blow his own trumpet. If he fails to perform, so be it. There is absolutely nothing to be lost, which is why an honest investigation would jump at his offer.

Again it would appear an absence of knowledge in the field of forensic science is creeping in.

I confess to ignorance on the subject so I try to look at things objectively but avoiding the technicalities, something I'm not in a position to expound upon.

The point is whether or not Perlin's cybergenetics methodology is reliable - I would expect the forensic scientist to be aware of controversial (experimental?) techniques in forensic analysis. As you say, it is a company which in itself demands authenticity. The South African patented body detector is used by way of illustration but that is yet another example of pie in the sky claims - claims again backed by dubious sources, sources that cannot be truly verified. On this matter, I strongly suggest the South African was yet another team McCann manufactured distraction, to re-direct the Portuguese investigation.

Who knows, Perlin could be just another appointed distraction. Supposing his offer was accepted, nothing to stop him (his company) from manipulating results in favour of the McCanns and friends.

It's not a case of giving Perlin his five minutes of fame to humour him - or it shouldn't be.. You can't say with any assurance, even if his company is above board, that his methodology is accurate, reliable or even legal. Imagine if the forensic data used by a machine, fed in by human hand, to analyze forensic evidence resulted in mistaken identity !?!

Companies notoriously advertise their products as the best thing since Hovis, they pay reviewers.

I put Perlin's cybergenetic theory along side speech analysis and body language. Possible indications but nothing definitive.

Perlin offers his services free of charge - there must be a catch, no one is in business for fun.

Whatever, if the British or Portuguese police took his offer seriously, you have to consider the likely repercussions. I wouldn't like my freedom jeopardized by a machine - where does that leave evidence?

by Doug D 02.07.22 15:16

Verdi:

'You can't say with any assurance, even if his company is above board, that his methodology is accurate, reliable or even legal.'

Can't you?

It's good enough for both the prosecution and defence sides in the US courts, so are they just mindless morons?

As for:

'.......nothing to stop him (his company) from manipulating results in favour of the McCanns and friends.'

No there's not apart from:

a/. If he could be 'got at', his offer would have been taken up by now

b/. Is he really going to destroy the credibility of his long established company for a couple of schekels?

Of course the website is a salesman's pitch, but have a look at some of the court documents within the cases. You can back them up with newspaper reports from searches.

And this from a Northern Ireland Court (so it's not just the mindless US morons):

[list="list-style-type: none;"][*]

RULING ON VOIR DIRE - MR JUSTICE HART

Thursday, 1st December 2011 09/143857 R-v-Colin F Duffy & Brian P Shivers

’I take into account that a small number of laboratories have acquired the TrueAllele system, but the number of users, while highly relevant when considering whether a new concept or process has reached a sufficient standard to be accepted as a reliable body of knowledge or experience, cannot be determinative of the decision on admissibility. I am satisfied that the stage has now been reached in the case of this system where it can be regarded as being reliable and accepted, and I am satisfied that Dr Perlin has given his evidence in a credible and reliable fashion. In the light of these conclusions I can see no basis on which I could properly exercise my discretion under Article 76 of The Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 to exclude this evidence, and I therefore admit it in evidence.'

Duffy was subsequently acquitted, although the Judge accepted his DNA had been found in the car, but Shivers sentenced to 25 years, although acquitted on retrial.

The acquittal was not based on challenging the DNA evidence, just how it got there.

‘He said the prosecution case against Mr Shivers was based on circumstantial evidence. He could not be sure that DNA found on matches and a phone in a partially burned getaway car might not have been placed there by “an innocent transfer”.’

Yes it's still obviously contentious even after all this time and it would do Perlin the world of good if he could pull it off.

As for the 'free of charge', it's not the analysis that makes the money it's the exorbitant legal & court fees further down the line.
[/list]

by Guest 02.07.22 16:36

Problem is, Perlin's 'TrueAllele ' is trade marked, a trade secret in Perlin's own words, it's coding has never been disclosed to my knowledge.

This has been discussed in the past, if I remember rightly when used in a court of law the police and court officials - even the judge has been kept in dark as regards Perlin's secret formula. I believe there was one instance when a defendant on trial in the US of A demanded access to TrueAllele

data, the stipulation was considered but Perlin made unreasonable demands in terms of money which could have compromised the trial. The request was dropped so the defendant lost his moment and was subsequently found guilty and sentenced.

Each to his own but I find this very unsatisfactory. Perhaps the principal is good and could lead to a break through in forensic analysis but as it stands, still in it's infancy, I think the method needs a lot more research and independent scrutiny. So far, the only people with access to the TrueAllele

methodology and coding are company employees - no doubt they are well and truly gagged if only to protect the company product!

That aside, the issue of forensic analysis in the case of Madeleine McCann has raised many questions about the reliability of forensic science and the conduct/competence of scientists within the former Forensic Science Service. It has been implied on numerous occasions that John Lowe of the FSS in particular, was working under orders - so to speak.

What's good for one is good for another .... surely?

by Guest 02.07.22 16:52

For information..

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/2017-09-14_billy-ray-johnson_amicus-full_accepted.pdf

Artificial Intelligence and algorithms are rapidly gaining traction. It's not a world I recognize nor wish to be part of - albeit seemingly unavoidable.

by Doug D 02.07.22 18:07

Crime	In the summer of 2013, three women were sexually assaulted by a masked assailant in the East Side of Bakersfield, CA.
Evidence	Biological evidence was collected from three crime scenes. These items included a phone, clothing, a bathtub handle, and zip tie believed to have been used to bind a victim.
DNA	The Kern Regional Crime Laboratory (KRCL) developed DNA data from 37 evidence items.
Match	Due to the complexity of these low-level 3 and 4 person mixtures, human review of the data was largely inconclusive.
TrueAllele	The computer yielded match statistics from 33 mixture items. 8 of these items linked Johnson to the 3 crimes. Cybergenetics and the KRCL independently obtained concordant TrueAllele match statistics.
Cybergenetics	Dr. Mark Perlin testified about the computer's DNA match statistics, giving evidence at a grand jury hearing in December, 2013, and again at Johnson's trial in March, 2015.
Outcome	Mr. Johnson was found guilty on 24 charges and was sentenced to life without parole, plus 423 years to life.

Johnson appeal was based purely on the following:

ARGUMENT
3(A) Algorithms are human constructs that include numerous sources for bias and mistake
3(B) Reliance on a secret algorithm in a criminal trial violates the Confrontation Clause
3(C) Reliance on a secret algorithm in a criminal trial violates the defendant’s rights to due process and to a fair trial
3(D) In addition to violating Mr. Johnson’s rights, the complete lack of transparency as to an algorithm that is material to a criminal trial vitiates the public’s First Amendment right of access.

But he lost the appeal.

'Eastside Rapist' Billy Ray Johnson has appeal denied

Posted at 11:37 AM, Jul 12, 2019

On Thursday, the 5th District Court of Appeal denied an appeal filed by Billy Ray Johnson who was convicted in 2015 of 24 counts of rape, along with home invasion robberies other crimes.

According to a statement released by the Kern County District Attorney, "the Court of Appeal noted that the evidence of Johnson’s guilt was 'simply overwhelming.' The convictions on all counts were affirmed."

Johnson, dubbed the Eastside Rapist, was sentenced of life in prison without the possibility of parole, with additional life sentences.

The District Attorney said that "case will return to the Kern County Superior Court to allow the trial judge to consider newly relaxed laws on firearm use in determining whether to reduce a portion of Johnson’s sentence pertaining to firearm-related crimes. "

Johnson committed his crimes in 2013. He "raped three women, tried to rape a fourth, and sexually assaulted a child during July and August of 2013. Johnson used duct tape and zip ties to restrain victims, and threatened children of the victims during his crimes." In all, his crimes affected a total of nine victims.

“Johnson’s crimes were devastating to the victims that suffered through them, and the entire community was in fear in 2013 as his repeated offenses accumulated," said District Attorney Cynthia Zimmer. "I am proud of the role I was able to play in ensuring that Johnson received a fair trial and was ultimately found guilty of all charges.”

https://www.turnto23.com/news/local-news/eastside-rapist-billy-ray-johnson-has-appeal-denied

by Guest 03.07.22 1:07

Fair enough Doug D, you choose to completely evade the point, not very constructive but nonetheless your prerogative.

It matters not, as you are clearly opposed to fact, evidence and/or argument that casts doubt over an unproven method of forensic analysis then the problem is yours alone.

I care not.

by **Cammerigal** 03.07.22 1:33

True Allelle is a a sophisticated software tool that analysis the millions of data points in a DNA data file [A, C, G, T]. It is accepted as a criminal case analytical tool by many jurisdictions. To achieve this acceptance status, it will have had to undergo extensive verification and validation testing.

Please don't re cycle the arguments that 'software is written by humans and is inherently flawed'. We have technically moved on and yes, I operate in this space

This human error risk was effectively eliminated by diverse coding methods, black and white box testing, cross check routines and extensive V&V testing. Critical software is deemed better than a human as; fit to fly unstable military aircraft, (F35), automate railways and run nuclear power station control systems ALARP.

So let us accept the software performs. Now, focus on the meaning of the DNA results and why the various police forces are avoiding deployment of the tool in this case, but are happy to use it in others where the complexity is beyond the ability of a human to interpret the results of Low copy count DNA.

by Guest 03.07.22 2:07

I acknowledge your superior stance on this issue as I understand the need to defend your position and that of your kinsfolk.

Tell me, do you have personal knowledge of TrueAllele's coding - the matter under dispute?

Can you truly attest to the authenticity and reliability of the claimed effective mode of forensic analysis claimed by TrueAllele?

Apologies if you find my scepticism offensive but I've yet to be convinced, it looks good on paper but is it all it's cracked up to be?

I'm not interested in the great Madeleine McCann forensic debate being pursued until such times as Dr Mark Perlin's methodology in all it's guises, has been satisfactorily verified.

I see no reason to totally dismiss the man vs. machine enigma until some semblance of proof is presented. If humanoid doesn't feed the information into machine who does - and alien force?

by **Cammerigal** 03.07.22 2:27

Verdi wrote:I acknowledge your superior stance on this issue as I understand the need to defend your position and that of your kinsfolk.

Tell me, do you have personal knowledge of TrueAllele's coding - the matter under dispute?

Can you truly attest to the authenticity and reliability of the claimed effective mode of forensic analysis claimed by TrueAllele?

Apologies if you find my scepticism offensive but I've yet to be convinced, it looks good on paper but is it all it's cracked up to be?

I'm not interested in the great Madeleine McCann forensic debate being pursued until such times as Dr Mark Perlin's methodology in all it's guises, has been satisfactorily verified.

I see no reason to totally dismiss the man vs. machine enigma until some semblance of proof is presented. If humanoid doesn't feed the information into machine who does - and alien force?

Verdi; I actually find your scepticism very disconcerting rather that personally offensive in that you are now undermining a potential breakthrough here. Please do confirm that you are not under any form of pressure by outside parties to follow this position. As a minimum, you should be agnostic and if you wish, do PM me.
As to the authenticity and reliability of the True Allelle software, which will have taken many man years to develop to formal release and would therefore have commercial IPR, neither you nor are I could personally assess the lines of code per se. That's why we rely on formal Verification and Validation.

by **crusader** 03.07.22 9:11

Has anyone signed this petition?

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-maddie-demand-scotland-yard-to-hand-over-crucial-dna-evidence-to-leading-expert-dr-perlin?sig

by Guest 03.07.22 14:39

The Sonia Poulton interview with Dr Mark Perlin in isolation..

Dr. Mark Perlin discusses the Madeleine McCann case with Sonia Poulton on Rise with BNT.

35:51 minutes

TrueAllele

Dr. Mark Perlin discusses the Madeleine McCann case with Sonia Poulton on Rise with BNT.

by Liz Eagles 03.07.22 19:23

Perlin cannot help himself by introducing the fear factor of not using his service.

by Liz Eagles 03.07.22 19:41

I don't understand why Perlin speaks to low stream media about what he claims to be an innovative scientific breakthrough.

by Guest 04.07.22 1:20

It's a good marketing ploy.

Indeed, why did Dr Mark Perlin first showcase his product through the medium of an Australian media outlet - Mark Saunokonoko.

My thoughts are always, if you and/or your product are that good - why the need to promote through small time irrelevant service platforms. Surely a home court of law speaks louder than a cross continent mouthpiece with little or no influence with criminal proceedings?

I maintain the belief the Portuguese police and the Metropolitan police dismissed the free offer of a trade mark cybergenetic company because it's worth was of no consequence. OK, throw a few mud pies in the direction of Operation Grange, that's perfectly acceptable but in the process destroying the reputation of the Portuguese police is totally unacceptable. They may have made a few fundamental mistakes but I don't think they can be accused of deliberate subterfuge.

Humour Perlin? Give him a voice? It doesn't matter much if his product right or wrong just as long as he's given the opportunity?

A case scenario ....

Dr McCan't walks into Leicester General Infirmary with an offer of a free heart transplant procedure using an undisclosed, secret, methodology involving the theory of cybergenetics - artificial intelligence/algorithm.

Do you accept the gesture without conditions or do you consider the patient's prognosis.

You take the plunge and the patient dies - what then?

Blame the computer or take responsibility for a very bad decision? You can't sue a computer but you can sue the body responsible for the product.

by **crusader** 04.07.22 9:29

Did Perlin ask to do a podcast with Saunokonoko or did 9 news contact him?

Perlin's method has been used in American court cases, was this before or after the Saunokonoko podcast?

The dogs found what was invisible to the police, maybe Perlin could do the same with the DNA results.