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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Mm11

Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Regist10
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Mm11

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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by sharonl 17.03.21 19:30

Judges demolish McCanns' innocence - Joana Morais (joana-morais.blogspot.com)
Judges demolish McCanns' innocence
by Joana Morais 4 years ago


Court acquits Gonçalo Amaral and points out that the couple was constituted as arguidos (suspects) with a "well-founded suspicion" of having committed a crime.


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Kate and Gerry McCann are demolished in the judgement of the Supreme Court in which the former coordinator of the PJ is acquitted of paying half a million euros to the parents of the girl who disappeared in May 2007 in the Algarve. At stake is the book 'Maddie: The Truth of the Lie', in which Amaral argues that the girl died in an accident and that the body was concealed by the parents, who simulated an abduction.

The McCanns felt aggrieved by the book and sued the author. The Judge-Counsellors replied: "The defendant [Gonçalo Amaral] expressed his opinion in the light of the evidence and indications gathered in the investigation opened in virtue of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on May 3, 2007 (...) Incidentally, the claimants (appellants, applicants) were constituted as arguidos in a criminal investigation, which implies that there was a well-founded suspicion of having committed crimes or crimes."

Kate and Gerry understand that the book is an attack on their honour and that the content results from the breach of professional secrecy by Gonçalo Amaral.

The Judge-Counsellors continue: "It is true that the criminal investigation was eventually archived, in virtue of none of the evidence that led to the constitution of the claimants as arguidos was confirmed. Nonetheless, even in the archiving dispatch serious reservations are made about the verisimilitude (reality of) of the allegation that Madeleine had been abducted."

As to the presumption of innocence invoked by the parents, they (Judges) consider that one should not say "that the claimants were acquitted through the order of archiving the criminal proceedings (investigation). The archiving was determined because it was not possible to obtain sufficient evidence of the practice of crimes. It does not seem reasonable to consider that said archiving dispatch, based on insufficient evidence, should be equated as substantiation (proof) of exoneration".

in Correio da Manhã, February 8, 2017
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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by Verdi 18.03.21 12:36

Even to this day the remnants of media coverage (read tabloids) don't miss the opportunity to remind their readers that the McCanns were declared innocent and cleared of arguido status when the PJ investigation was archived in July 2008.

This is a gross falsehood, deliberate or the result of sloppy journalism is a matter for conjecture, whatever it is wrong to continue the propagation of false claims.

The McCanns were and still are the prime suspects in the disappearance of their own daughter Madeleine. Nothing has happened to change their status as suspects/persons of interest - arguidos, archival of the process is not a declaration of innocence.

A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation


Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.

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....................

Letter to the Attorney General regarding investigation details - 4th August 2008

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified

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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by Paulo Alexandre 18.03.21 13:59

The McCanns are not suspects, for the simple reason that no crime has been established.

If a crime is established, they are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

This is not to distract attention away from looking at the available evidence; rather, it is to maintain the integrity of the investigation. The truth of the matter is that there's not enough data to determine exactly what happened to Madeleine McCann. Apart from the original Portuguese investigative team, the MMRG has been the only group to try and do just that.

This is also not to say that the McCann's legal action against Dr. Gonçalo Amaral had any merit - it didn't! Dr. Amaral's book, "The Truth of the Lie" does not contain opinions nor beliefs, but the narration of events that happened during a five-month investigation conducted by him and his team, from the moment he learned about the disappearance to the conclusions he and his team reached in September 2007 - that Madeleine had died in the McCanns' holiday apartment and that the McCanns were suspected of having concealed her body. Again, this is was the conclusion they came to, as evidenced by Tavares de Almeida's report he filed on 10th September 2007.

Dr. Amaral's book is based on the PJ files and other factual elements of the investigation. It is therefore not defamatory nor libellous.

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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by BlueBag 18.03.21 14:31

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:The McCanns are not suspects, for the simple reason that no crime has been established.
They were suspects (and still are) in the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann - an incident where a suspected crime is being investigated.

What was established was that Madeleine McCann had disappeared.

The parents are the prime suspects in for involvement in that disappearance.

If a crime is established, they are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
But they can be suspects - it's not a declaration of guilt.

Which is the point.
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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by Paulo Alexandre 18.03.21 15:02

You miss the point!

In order to declare someone a suspect, you first have to determine what crime was committed. 

The disappearance of a child is not a crime.

What the McCanns were suspected of having done was concealing Madeleine McCann's body. Since there was not sufficient evidence to prove that there was a concealment, the McCanns' arguido status was lifted.

If you don't determine what the crime was, you can't say who did it.

It's always important to start out with "what happened", before saying "who did it".

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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by Verdi 18.03.21 15:32

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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by BlueBag 18.03.21 15:49

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:You miss the point!

In order to declare someone a suspect, you first have to determine what crime was committed. 
You seem to have forgotten that they were made suspects during the investigation.
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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by Paulo Alexandre 18.03.21 15:57

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:You seem to have forgotten that they were made suspects during the investigation.
What the McCanns were suspected of having done was concealing Madeleine McCann's body. Since there was not sufficient evidence to prove that there was a concealment, the McCanns' arguido status was lifted.

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Post by BlueBag 18.03.21 19:59

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:You seem to have forgotten that they were made suspects during the investigation.
What the McCanns were suspected of having done was concealing Madeleine McCann's body. Since there was not sufficient evidence to prove that there was a concealment, the McCanns' arguido status was lifted.
But you said they can't be suspects without a crime identified.

They were suspects... surely you admit you were wrong.

And they still are because they were never cleared... in fact the PJ files say they think they did it.

Do you have "moving goalposts" on your CV?
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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by Paulo Alexandre 18.03.21 20:35

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:You seem to have forgotten that they were made suspects during the investigation.
What the McCanns were suspected of having done was concealing Madeleine McCann's body. Since there was not sufficient evidence to prove that there was a concealment, the McCanns' arguido status was lifted.
But you said they can't be suspects without a crime identified.

They were suspects... surely you admit you were wrong.
My exact words were:

"The McCanns are not suspects", not "The McCanns were never considered suspects"

They stopped being suspects after the Portuguese authorities concluded there was not enough evidence to determine what crime had been comitted under Portuguese law.

I hope that is understood.

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Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal. Empty Re: Supreme Court judges maintain that McCanns are still under suspicion in Portugal.

Post by BlueBag 19.03.21 7:55

Your exact words were:


"In order to declare someone a suspect, you first have to determine what crime was committed."


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They still are suspects, the prime ones according to the PJ files.
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Post by Paulo Alexandre 19.03.21 10:49

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Your exact words were:
"In order to declare someone a suspect, you first have to determine what crime was committed."
Right, and both the PJ and the Portuguese Attorney-General said in their final report that there wasn't enough evidence to determine what crime had ocurred, which is why the case was shelved and both the McCanns and Robert Murat were no longer considered suspects. This is not only explicitly stated in the PJ final report but also in the legal summary of the case:
In conclusion, it results from everything that has been done, despite the efforts that were made and all investigation lines being explored, that it is not possible to obtain a solid and objective conclusion about what really happened that night, and about the present location of the missing minor.
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- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann - apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment - or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship.
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Without enough evidence to determine what the crime was, you cannot name suspects. This is a question of keeping things fair and maintaining the integrity of criminal investigations.

Now, why is that so hard for you to understand?

I think you just want to argue.

If that's the case, you can take this up to the PMs.

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Post by BlueBag 19.03.21 11:58

You said they couldn't be suspects - but they were.

"In order to declare someone a suspect, you first have to determine what crime was committed."
I think this part of the discussion is done.

Please put the goalposts down.
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Post by Paulo Alexandre 19.03.21 12:22

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:You said they couldn't be suspects - but they were.

"In order to declare someone a suspect, you first have to determine what crime was committed."
I think this part of the discussion is done.

Please put the goalposts down.
I ain't in the mood for games, BlueBag.

As I said, if you want to argue, you can take this conversation to the PM area, but I doubt you'll get much attention there.

I have made myself very clear and I do not feel the need to explain something that is very easy to understand.

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Post by BlueBag 19.03.21 12:29

Ok last chance.

Were the McCanns made suspects before they determined what crime was committed?

(Yes/No) delete where applicable.
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Post by Silentscope 20.03.21 9:17

The British Police required a higher level of PROOF that a Crime had been committed before someone could be suspected of it.
(Common Law)

The Portuguese Police had at that point enough SUSPICION that a Crime of some sort had been committed to name a person Suspect.
(Napoleonic Law)

That seemed to be the different Policies that were in conflict. The level of Proof required to be named Arguido was changed soon after Dr Amarals ‘move’ to Lisbon.

What an Arguido is: 

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