Spotlight on Sunday 29th April 2007

by Guest 10.11.17 21:18

OK, so let's get this moving..

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

The holiday had got off to a good start, and we felt mellow and content.

Everyone had a good night’s sleep and the next morning, Sunday 29 April, we woke up bright and early and feeling refreshed. After a quick wash, we returned to the Millennium restaurant, where we joined our friends for breakfast, and then took the children to their kids’ clubs. While our three were having fun elsewhere with their buddies, there would be a rare chance for Gerry and me to spend time together playing tennis, going for a run or just relaxing. It seemed to us an ideal way for everyone to get the most out of the holiday.

We wanted to balance these activities with enjoying our break as a family, and we made it clear to Madeleine that she didn’t have to go to the club if she didn’t feel like it. We wouldn’t have minded if she’d asked to stay with us as we loved her company, but she was far less concerned about being apart from Gerry and me than the other way round. The main thing was that everyone was happy.

Sean and Amelie were enrolled in the Toddler Club for two-year-olds in a building adjacent to a bar and the open-air Tapas restaurant, just across from our apartment on the other side of the main pool. The nanny who was to take care of them there seemed very pleasant and capable. Amelie, true to form, was completely unfazed; sensitive Sean, when it came to it, was initially a bit upset, all of which was situation normal with the twins. The staff had our telephone numbers and we left details of our whereabouts, as we would do for the rest of the week, in case there were any problems or in the unlikely event that Sean failed to settle.

Madeleine’s group, the Mini Club for three-to-fives, was based in a light, airy room above the twenty-four-hour reception. This was slightly further away and it was a few mornings before we got our bearings and found a quicker route there. Ella went too and although until the previous day the two girls hadn’t seen each other for several months, they soon became great pals. Madeleine’s nanny, Cat, I warmed to straight away, as did Madeleine. She was bubbly, smiley, kind and bursting with enthusiasm. It was obvious that she was doing the job because she loved children, not simply as a way of spending a few months in the sun.

After dropping off the children we went along to a ‘tennis coffee morning’. Neither of us is a regular tennis player but before we’d had the kids we’d spent many holidays knocking a few balls around. Perhaps that’s a bit of a casual way of putting it: we’re both pretty competitive so there have been some fierce matches over the years, thankfully all ending amicably with a hug over the net and a post-match beer. So we were keen to get in some tennis on this break and maybe improve our technique a little. We played a few games and signed up for group lessons for the rest of the week, me at level 1 and Gerry level 2 (I must grudgingly concede that he is better than I am).

Soon after midday we collected the children. I loved going to pick up the kids when they were little. The moment when your child spots you and rushes over to throw a pair of tiny arms around you makes your heart sing. It doesn’t happen every time, of course, but I have many special memories of meeting Madeleine at nursery at home. Hurtling across the classroom and into my embrace, she would shout, ‘My mummy!’, as if establishing ownership of me in front of the other children. What I’d give to have that again.

Gerry had made a trip to Baptista, a supermarket a short distance from the Ocean Club on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning. We all had lunch on the balcony of the apartment Fi and Dave were sharing with Dianne. Today we’d been able to make a dinner reservation for the adult contingent at the poolside Tapas restaurant. Apparently, this restaurant, a canopied outdoor addition to the bar, catered for only up to fifteen diners in the evenings, and reservations could not be made until the morning of the day in question. Being so close, it was far more convenient than the Millennium. The children could have their tea together earlier, play for a while and then go to bed at their usual time, which meant they wouldn’t get overtired and out of sorts, and we could eat later on.

In the afternoon the children went back to their clubs and, after a leisurely hour by the pool with Fiona, David and Dianne, Gerry and I took a run along the beach. Being able to play tennis and run together for the first time in ages was a real treat.

Just before 5pm, the arrangement was that the nannies would bring all the children to a raised area next to the Tapas restaurant to meet their parents and have their ‘high tea’, as they called it. Madeleine’s Mini Club arrived walking in single file clutching Sammy Snake, a long rope with coloured rings fastened to it at regular intervals for the children to hold on to. Very cute. The nearby play area had several small slides and a little playhouse, which our team of kids adored, and after tea we all spent half an hour or so there.

We headed back to our apartments, the kids all tired but happy after their busy day. At home, the twins were usually asleep soon after seven, while Madeleine enjoyed the big sister’s privilege of an extra half-hour with Gerry and me. Sean and Amelie had always been perfect sleepers, and Madeleine had outgrown the restlessness of her babyhood, so, barring illness and the odd instance of playing up at bedtime, ours was normally a relatively quiet household by 8pm. If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning.

In Portugal the only difference was that all three children went down around seven, seven-fifteen. None of them had been taking daytime naps for quite a few months before the holiday, and after the activities and excitement of each day, they were all ready for their beds by then. Familiar with their bedtime ritual, they accepted it as a prelude to sleep and, after milk and stories, settled very quickly. It’s a time-honoured routine viewed as the norm by the vast majority of British parents and children, and we were dumbfounded when, in the months to come, it provoked sceptical comments in Portugal.

After putting the children to bed, Gerry and I showered, dressed and sat down with a glass of wine before heading over to the Tapas restaurant, booked for eight-thirty. At that time, most Mark Warner provided a baby-listening service – basically, members of staff listening at regular intervals at the doors of the apartments and villas to check that none of the children inside had woken up. This service was not offered by the Ocean Club,

presumably because it was less of a ‘campus’ resort than others, with apartments scattered over a greater area. Instead there was a crèche, where children could be looked after from about 7.30pm to 11pm. Given that our children needed to be in their beds by the time it opened, the crèche wasn’t really workable for us. We both felt it would be too unsettling for them and would disrupt their sleep.

[Excerpt for study/research purposes only]

by NickE 10.11.17 22:13

Verdi wrote:

OK, so let's get this moving..

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

The holiday had got off to a good start, and we felt mellow and content.

Everyone had a good night’s sleep and the next morning, Sunday 29 April, we woke up bright and early and feeling refreshed. After a quick wash, we returned to the Millennium restaurant, where we joined our friends for breakfast, and then took the children to their kids’ clubs. While our three were having fun elsewhere with their buddies, there would be a rare chance for Gerry and me to spend time together playing tennis, going for a run or just relaxing. It seemed to us an ideal way for everyone to get the most out of the holiday.

We wanted to balance these activities with enjoying our break as a family, and we made it clear to Madeleine that she didn’t have to go to the club if she didn’t feel like it. We wouldn’t have minded if she’d asked to stay with us as we loved her company, but she was far less concerned about being apart from Gerry and me than the other way round. The main thing was that everyone was happy.

Sean and Amelie were enrolled in the Toddler Club for two-year-olds in a building adjacent to a bar and the open-air Tapas restaurant, just across from our apartment on the other side of the main pool. The nanny who was to take care of them there seemed very pleasant and capable. Amelie, true to form, was completely unfazed; sensitive Sean, when it came to it, was initially a bit upset, all of which was situation normal with the twins. The staff had our telephone numbers and we left details of our whereabouts, as we would do for the rest of the week, in case there were any problems or in the unlikely event that Sean failed to settle.

Madeleine’s group, the Mini Club for three-to-fives, was based in a light, airy room above the twenty-four-hour reception. This was slightly further away and it was a few mornings before we got our bearings and found a quicker route there. Ella went too and although until the previous day the two girls hadn’t seen each other for several months, they soon became great pals. Madeleine’s nanny, Cat, I warmed to straight away, as did Madeleine. She was bubbly, smiley, kind and bursting with enthusiasm. It was obvious that she was doing the job because she loved children, not simply as a way of spending a few months in the sun.

After dropping off the children we went along to a ‘tennis coffee morning’. Neither of us is a regular tennis player but before we’d had the kids we’d spent many holidays knocking a few balls around. Perhaps that’s a bit of a casual way of putting it: we’re both pretty competitive so there have been some fierce matches over the years, thankfully all ending amicably with a hug over the net and a post-match beer. So we were keen to get in some tennis on this break and maybe improve our technique a little. We played a few games and signed up for group lessons for the rest of the week, me at level 1 and Gerry level 2 (I must grudgingly concede that he is better than I am).

Soon after midday we collected the children. I loved going to pick up the kids when they were little. The moment when your child spots you and rushes over to throw a pair of tiny arms around you makes your heart sing. It doesn’t happen every time, of course, but I have many special memories of meeting Madeleine at nursery at home. Hurtling across the classroom and into my embrace, she would shout, ‘My mummy!’, as if establishing ownership of me in front of the other children. What I’d give to have that again.

Gerry had made a trip to Baptista, a supermarket a short distance from the Ocean Club on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning. We all had lunch on the balcony of the apartment Fi and Dave were sharing with Dianne. Today we’d been able to make a dinner reservation for the adult contingent at the poolside Tapas restaurant. Apparently, this restaurant, a canopied outdoor addition to the bar, catered for only up to fifteen diners in the evenings, and reservations could not be made until the morning of the day in question. Being so close, it was far more convenient than the Millennium. The children could have their tea together earlier, play for a while and then go to bed at their usual time, which meant they wouldn’t get overtired and out of sorts, and we could eat later on.

In the afternoon the children went back to their clubs and, after a leisurely hour by the pool with Fiona, David and Dianne, Gerry and I took a run along the beach. Being able to play tennis and run together for the first time in ages was a real treat.

Just before 5pm, the arrangement was that the nannies would bring all the children to a raised area next to the Tapas restaurant to meet their parents and have their ‘high tea’, as they called it. Madeleine’s Mini Club arrived walking in single file clutching Sammy Snake, a long rope with coloured rings fastened to it at regular intervals for the children to hold on to. Very cute. The nearby play area had several small slides and a little playhouse, which our team of kids adored, and after tea we all spent half an hour or so there.

We headed back to our apartments, the kids all tired but happy after their busy day. At home, the twins were usually asleep soon after seven, while Madeleine enjoyed the big sister’s privilege of an extra half-hour with Gerry and me. Sean and Amelie had always been perfect sleepers, and Madeleine had outgrown the restlessness of her babyhood, so, barring illness and the odd instance of playing up at bedtime, ours was normally a relatively quiet household by 8pm. If Madeleine ever woke during the night it was always in the small hours, practically never earlier than two or three in the morning.

In Portugal the only difference was that all three children went down around seven, seven-fifteen. None of them had been taking daytime naps for quite a few months before the holiday, and after the activities and excitement of each day, they were all ready for their beds by then. Familiar with their bedtime ritual, they accepted it as a prelude to sleep and, after milk and stories, settled very quickly. It’s a time-honoured routine viewed as the norm by the vast majority of British parents and children, and we were dumbfounded when, in the months to come, it provoked sceptical comments in Portugal.

After putting the children to bed, Gerry and I showered, dressed and sat down with a glass of wine before heading over to the Tapas restaurant, booked for eight-thirty. At that time, most Mark Warner provided a baby-listening service – basically, members of staff listening at regular intervals at the doors of the apartments and villas to check that none of the children inside had woken up. This service was not offered by the Ocean Club,

presumably because it was less of a ‘campus’ resort than others, with apartments scattered over a greater area. Instead there was a crèche, where children could be looked after from about 7.30pm to 11pm. Given that our children needed to be in their beds by the time it opened, the crèche wasn’t really workable for us. We both felt it would be too unsettling for them and would disrupt their sleep.

[Excerpt for study/research purposes only]

Snipped from Amy Tierney's statement on May 6:

"The hours of the club are from 09.00 to 12.30 and from 14.30 to 17.30, the club is closed on Sundays on that day it only offers the dinner service"
This has always puzzled me.

by Guest 10.11.17 22:40

Thank you NickE - all donations gratefully received 2thumbs

by Guest 10.11.17 22:44

Kate McCann's witness statement - 4th May 2007

The day after their arrival, they went for breakfast at around 7.30/8.30 at the Ocean Club, in a bar situated some distance from the apartment. On the following days, because the bar was quite far away, they started buying supplies from the "BAPTISTE" supermarket, located on the same road as the apartment and they had their first meal of the day in the apartment.

Kate McCann's pre-arguido interview - 6th September 2007

The window in Kate's room was closed and she admits they used the blinds, because Gerry broke them and they were repaired on the Monday; the incident occurred on Sunday.

No other specific mention of Sunday during the interview.

Gerry McCann's witness statement - 4th May 2007

As regards routines, he says that on Sunday they had breakfast between 07.30 and 08.30 at the OC Bar at a few metres distance from the apartment. During the following days, because of the fact that the bar was quite far away, they began to buy food at a supermarket situated in the same street as the apartment, he cannot remember the name of the supermarket and they would have breakfast in the apartment.

Gerry McCann's witness statement - 10th May 2007

The following day (Sunday) the children woke up at 08h00, he and his wife having woken up at 07h30. They dressed and about 08h40 left the apartment going to the MILLENIUM restaurant, once more on foot and by the same route as the previous night, but without the mistake referred to previously, arriving there at 08h45/09h00. The group did not all arrive at the same time, rather in a phased manner, because they were not all seated at the same table.

----- He thinks that MO and wife RMO did not take breakfast due to the former having spent a bad night with vomiting and diarrhoea. At breakfast the children sat at the same table among the adults, it finished at 09h25.

----- The deponent, his wife and three children went to the OCEAN CLUB by the same route where they arrived at 09h40, the deponent having entered the apartment by the main door, which was locked, collecting a bag with clothing and creams for the children [then] going inside the resort area. The twins stayed at the creche next to the TAPAS, which was for children of two years of age, and then he and KATE took MADELEINE to the other creche for older children situated on the 1st floor at the main reception of the resort, arriving there at 09h50. Besides MADELEINE, only E***, daughter of JANE and RUSSELL went to the same creche. The remaining children being very young stayed at the creche next to the TAPAS.

----- Again she went on foot, leaving the secondary reception she turned right, went down the street passing the supermarket, turning left passing the main reception. After putting the children in their creches they went to the supermarket where they bought [things] for lunch and breakfast.

----- At 12H30, the deponent and KATE first went to pick up MADELEINE and then the twins, going to the apartment. On this day, Sunday, they lunched on the veranda of DP's apartment with the whole group, including children, except for MATHEW, who was ill and at that moment was sleeping on the veranda of his apartment, that was below and to the left in relation to where they were eating lunch.

----- They took the children to the play area next to the pool, where the playground apparatus is, at 14H15, having stayed there until about 14H20. After that time they left the twins in the creche at TAPAS, and either he or KATE, he doesn't know who, took MADELEINE to the creche above the main reception following the route previously described. He clarifies that the drop-off and collection times were recorded at each creche along with the contact number and location of the respective parents.

----- At 17h00 the OCEAN CLUB nursery care workers conducted MADELEINE and the other children in creche on the 1st floor of the main reception to [the area] next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered.

----- The hygiene done, the children were put to bed about 19h30, it being that the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer.

----- That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Though his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner. Except for the situation described above, that occurred during lunch, he did not see MATHEW during the whole of Sunday.

----- Dinner ended at 23h00, during which every half-hour the deponent or KATE went, alternately, to the apartment to confirm that all was well with the children. On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not knowing [how] to show [demonstrate] that they locked it with a key. Usually they entered the apartment, in which one of the lounge lights was lit, going to the children's bedroom door that was partially open [ajar] and limited themselves to peep inside, trying to hear if the children were crying. The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open, the window was closed though now he he is not totally sure if it was locked, and the curtains drawn closed. Ten minutes after dinner ended they had made their way to the apartment, going to sleep soon after.

Gerry McCann's statement as arguido - 7th September 2007

No specific mention of Sunday during the interview.

by Guest 10.11.17 22:58

Catriona Baker's informal interview - 4th May 2007

That she cared for Madeleine since Sunday April 29th 2007, daily until yesterday and that she always worked the same hours;

Catriona Baker's witness statement - 6th May 2007

When asked she states that she knows the McCann family since last Sunday, 29th April, 2007, when they enrolled their daughter in the “Minis” service. She replies that since that date and until Thursday, the 03rd of May, 2007, she was with Madeleine every day, but is unable to specify if she was present on the Sunday morning.

Catriona Baker's rogatory interview - 18th April 2008

I got to know Gerry and Kate McCann on the Sunday morning, 29.04.2007, in the Minis Club. They brought the children and as it was their first day of holidays the normal procedure was that they were allocated a childcare worker. I had previously written the children's bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information.

by Guest 10.11.17 23:00

Lobster Club activity sheet

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by Guest 10.11.17 23:04

Lobster Club creche register - Sunday 29th April 2007 [Undated but purported to be the record from Sunday]

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by Guest 11.11.17 1:25

Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada (cleaner) witness statement - 8th May 2007

She had the opportunity to observe the photos of Madeleine that were being circulated everywhere and has no hesitation in confirming that she saw the child before her disappearance in the company of her siblings and mother and father, although in the latter case she only observed him from a distance.

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine's family who were staying in 5 A.

by Guest 11.11.17 7:35

Just wondering how Fatima's statement fits with reality.

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I don't see how she saw Gerry closing the door. The passage to the McCanns door is a dead end and Fatima wouldn't have been at the door end.

Anyway it's a minor point, the statement seems legit.

by G-Unit 11.11.17 9:05

Coffee morning on Sunday where people signed up for tennis. Mr C seems unsure if he played with them or they played with each other only. Was it Monday when the McCanns went to the beach? The late return t their kid's clubs support this.

On Sunday the 29th April C**** and I participated in a coffee morning of the MW tennis group where I met Gerry, Kate, J****, C****, R****, A***, G***, A***'s sister and A***, there were other tourists there whose names now escape me. In total there were approximately some sixteen people at this coffee morning and tennis was one of the activities that the man, or that both subscribed to during the week....

I first played tennis with Kate and G***n, there was another lady whose name I can't remember and afterwards I played with Kate and G**** against Gerry......

So during the week, you played tennis with Gerry about three times'

SC: Ah ha.

DCF: On Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, it says here that you got on well, that he communicated easily, he was fun, he talked to you about golf which was his favourite sport, that he wanted to improve his tennis during the week. On Sunday or Monday he twisted his ankle, but managed to keep on playing, and on Sunday morning he only played tennis with Kate, that you saw them both playing sport and they passed by you at the bar on the beach and this was Sunday or Monday at about mid day.
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by skyrocket 11.11.17 9:35

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Fatima not being able to see the door has always niggled me as well. Don't know why I haven't checked the translation before - but therein lies the answer. She doesn't say that she can't remember, she says that she has 'no idea' (nao ter ideia nenhuma) whether the father pulled the door to or locked it with a key'. Simple mistakes make a whole lot of difference to the meaning! Makes sense now, because as you pointed out, there was no way she could have seen the door of 5A from where she says she was standing.

by skyrocket 11.11.17 10:08

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - again, this is a puzzler. Three of the nannys state that all the kids clubs were closed on Sundays:

Amy Tierney - Head of the Baby and Mini Clubs (although Hotel Manager, Emma Knight, calls her the Services Manager)

Shinead Vine - who worked with Toddler 2's (the twins). Shinead also put the nanny total as 15, which agrees with the PJ's Nani List (at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - this list includes Hayley May Crawford, who works in the Pool Bar and who was driving the streets of Luz with her boyfriend, around 9-9.30pm on the evening of 3 May. Did Hayley work as a nanny some evenings?

Leanne Wagstaff - says that she worked with the toddlers during the week in question.

One saying it is possibly a mistake; two should rasie eyebrows; three - alarm bells, IMO. Particularly as Amy is in charge of two of the kids clubs. Other nannys are unspecific and some state clearly that the clubs were closed on Saturdays - why the discrepancy? It is a simple point and not one where there should be ANY disagreement. We are back to why would any of the nannys state something they knew to be incorrect and/or checkable?

Apologies if this is OT but one other small point about the nannys - why does MW state that they are in high demand every night for private baby sitting and need to be booked well in advance and yet not a single one of the nannys were or had been baby sitting on the night of the 3 May?

by Guest 11.11.17 11:19

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Fatima not being able to see the door has always niggled me as well. Don't know why I haven't checked the translation before - but therein lies the answer. She doesn't say that she can't remember, she says that she has 'no idea' (nao ter ideia nenhuma) whether the father pulled the door to or locked it with a key'. Simple mistakes make a whole lot of difference to the meaning! Makes sense now, because as you pointed out, there was no way she could have seen the door of 5A from where she says she was standing.

Ah!

Makes more sense.

Thanks.

by Doug D 11.11.17 11:48

Sabado and Domingo, so not easily confused in translation from the Portuguese, but Saturday and Sunday, badly spoken, could probably be confused by a translator, with English as the second language, transcribing a vocal statement from English into Portuguese.

Having said that however, the translator in all three cases is Robert Murat, born and early bred in England, so English as the first language, which makes this possible confusion almost impossible (unless deliberate?).

The clubs activity sheets have nothing for Saturday, which makes sense if this is the usual changeover day, with the ‘meet, greet and sign-up’s on the Saturday early evening.

by Guest 11.11.17 12:15

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Fatima not being able to see the door has always niggled me as well. Don't know why I haven't checked the translation before - but therein lies the answer. She doesn't say that she can't remember, she says that she has 'no idea' (nao ter ideia nenhuma) whether the father pulled the door to or locked it with a key'. Simple mistakes make a whole lot of difference to the meaning! Makes sense now, because as you pointed out, there was no way she could have seen the door of 5A from where she says she was standing.

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Do you speak Portuguese? Are you adequately qualified to act as an interpreter and/or translator?

I ask because this particular witness statement was translated by one 'Ines', a professional who voluntarily translated many pages from the PJ files, for the benefit of anyone interested in the case of Madeleine McCann. If Ines and all the other bi-lingual/multi-lingual volunteers who gave up so much time to assist in this area, are to be doubted - what hope is there?

As the PJ file translations have been used for the past ten years as a template for discussion and hopefully, getting somewhere close to the truth, if they are to be discarded as unreliable then we might as well throw in the towel and go home!

I've said many times in the past, it's not possible to translate word for word from one language to another. You have to consider the structure of the text, the subject matter in context, otherwise you'll end up with a string of meaningless words. To be able to do this, you need a thorough knowledge of the languages.

by Guest 11.11.17 12:40

BlueBag wrote:Just wondering how Fatima's statement fits with reality.

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I don't see how she saw Gerry closing the door. The passage to the McCanns door is a dead end and Fatima wouldn't have been at the door end.

Anyway it's a minor point, the statement seems legit.

So where exactly was this witness when she she saw the family leave the apartment, as claimed?

There can be no ligitimate reason for her being on the passage leading to apartment 5a to the stairway/lift, she couldn't have been inside because she wouldn't have been able to see the family leave by the front door. She must have been walking towards the building from left or right, in parking, en-route for the stairway/lift area.

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As can be seen, between apartment 5a front door and parking, there is a low wall. The witness must have been walking very close to the wall from the right to have seen three very small children and what they were wearing on their feet. She must have been walking very slowly to have also seen the father leaving the apartment. Had she been approaching from the left it's doubtful she would have seen any of this.

Then I ask, considering the short distance between the apartment front door and the stairway, you'd think she would have arrived at the same time and encountered the family group inside, making their way to the Payne apartment.

As you say, only a minor detail. I'm not suggesting the witness was part of a conspiracy plot, only that her testimony can't be relied upon 100%. Witnesses can be very unreliable, it's unreasonable to expect the human mind to accurately recall a past event - the mind has a tendency to produce a vague idea, then fill in the gaps with imagination. It's not a fault with the individual, it's a fault with the human sensory mechanism.

This witness does not prove Madeleine was alive and well at lunchtime on Sunday 29th, it's only serves as an indication that she might have been seen - a piece of the puzzle so to speak.

by Verity 11.11.17 12:52

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] And didn't the McCanns say they spent £100k on getting the files translated for themselves?

If they'd found that Ines' translations were wrong it would have been splashed all over the front pages of the Sun by her gym buddy Tracey Kandohla about how those "nasty trolls" were using badly translated files to research them.

And didn't Operation Grange also get them translated?

If £100k is what it cost to have the files translated then it makes it even more special that Ines and others did it all for free.

flowers

by dartinghero 11.11.17 15:10

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - again, this is a puzzler. Three of the nannys state that all the kids clubs were closed on Sundays:

Amy Tierney - Head of the Baby and Mini Clubs (although Hotel Manager, Emma Knight, calls her the Services Manager)

Shinead Vine - who worked with Toddler 2's (the twins). Shinead also put the nanny total as 15, which agrees with the PJ's Nani List (at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - this list includes Hayley May Crawford, who works in the Pool Bar and who was driving the streets of Luz with her boyfriend, around 9-9.30pm on the evening of 3 May. Did Hayley work as a nanny some evenings?

Leanne Wagstaff - says that she worked with the toddlers during the week in question.

One saying it is possibly a mistake; two should rasie eyebrows; three - alarm bells, IMO. Particularly as Amy is in charge of two of the kids clubs. Other nannys are unspecific and some state clearly that the clubs were closed on Saturdays - why the discrepancy? It is a simple point and not one where there should be ANY disagreement. We are back to why would any of the nannys state something they knew to be incorrect and/or checkable?

Apologies if this is OT but one other small point about the nannys - why does MW state that they are in high demand every night for private baby sitting and need to be booked well in advance and yet not a single one of the nannys were or had been baby sitting on the night of the 3 May?

In addition, the lobster club timetable posted above by Verdi (sorry, not sure how to copy it properly) clearly shows activities listed for the Sunday. However, there are no listings for SATURDAY.

by Guest 11.11.17 15:39

Verity wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] And didn't the McCanns say they spent £100k on getting the files translated for themselves?

If they'd found that Ines' translations were wrong it would have been splashed all over the front pages of the Sun by her gym buddy Tracey Kandohla about how those "nasty trolls" were using badly translated files to research them.

And didn't Operation Grange also get them translated?

If £100k is what it cost to have the files translated then it makes it even more special that Ines and others did it all for free.

They did indeed - it even has a mention (althouth not itemized in the accounts for the year 2008/2009) here, signed off by family member J McCann...

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Question is - what on earth did the McCann team expect to achieve by trawling through thousands of pages of translated files? Apart from the innocent explanation for anything and everything the PJ may or may not have discovered. Heaven knows they tried hard enough to get their mitts on the Leicester police files - epic failure!

by Guest 11.11.17 15:52

dartinghero wrote:In addition, the lobster club timetable posted above by Verdi (sorry, not sure how to copy it properly) clearly shows activities listed for the Sunday. However, there are no listings for SATURDAY.

I think it can be said without contest that the childcare facilities would have been closed on Saturdays, being change-over day it stands to reason.

The childcare workers witness statements are an unmitigated shambles. Not one of them is watertight.

Still, as I've said many times before, from my experience, seasonal workers at any tourist destination (particularly those who come into direct contact with the guests) are only there to escape from the humdrum of life back at base. They are youngsters off the leash looking for sun, booze and sex!

I doubt they paid very much attention to detail when being interviewed - for the most part with Robert Murat acting as interpreter for the PJ. They would each have been asked the same specific questions and were probably a little nervous about the situation. Whatever they did or didn't say during the formal interviews has no bearing on Madeleine's presence on Sunday 29th April.

Catriona Baker however is another kettle of fish as she moved on to become a key witness for the McCanns - although this still doesn't prove anything as regards Madeleine being seen alive and well on the Sunday.

by Guest 11.11.17 16:46

Verdi wrote:
skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Fatima not being able to see the door has always niggled me as well. Don't know why I haven't checked the translation before - but therein lies the answer. She doesn't say that she can't remember, she says that she has 'no idea' (nao ter ideia nenhuma) whether the father pulled the door to or locked it with a key'. Simple mistakes make a whole lot of difference to the meaning! Makes sense now, because as you pointed out, there was no way she could have seen the door of 5A from where she says she was standing.
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Do you speak Portuguese? Are you adequately qualified to act as an interpreter and/or translator?

I ask because this particular witness statement was translated by one 'Ines', a professional who voluntarily translated many pages from the PJ files, for the benefit of anyone interested in the case of Madeleine McCann. If Ines and all the other bi-lingual/multi-lingual volunteers who gave up so much time to assist in this area, are to be doubted - what hope is there?

As the PJ file translations have been used for the past ten years as a template for discussion and hopefully, getting somewhere close to the truth, if they are to be discarded as unreliable then we might as well throw in the towel and go home!

I've said many times in the past, it's not possible to translate word for word from one language to another. You have to consider the structure of the text, the subject matter in context, otherwise you'll end up with a string of meaningless words. To be able to do this, you need a thorough knowledge of the languages.

Verdi,

It does appear to translate as "no idea".

"perguntada, refere não ter ideia nenhuma se o pai das crianças aquando da sua saida se limitou a puxae a porta do apartamento ou se a fechou a chave"

Google translate:

"asked if she had no idea whether the children's parents at the time of their departure simply pulled the door to the apartment or closed the key"

Specifically "não ter ideia nenhuma" is "have no idea" and seems a closer translation than "can't remember" ("não me lembro")

But a Portuguese speaker would be able to confirm better.

by skyrocket 11.11.17 16:57

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]/[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - yes, you are quite right about the creche activity sheets/Saturday being the arrival day and hence most likely to have been the day the creche was closed. However, I have to disagree [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that the any of the nannys were so young/nervous/brain dead that they were incapable of remembering or articulating what set day of the week the kid club was closed. There isn't even a 'I can't remember', involved - all three make a clear statement. What the relevance is, I have no idea but I'm not prepared to ignore things just because I don't understand them.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - with ref to the translation. I think we have been down this road before. Yes, I appreciate the immense amount of work put in to translate the files - something I am sure we are all extremely grateful for. However, the fact remains that certain phrases have been mis-translated. It would be very remiss of anyone who comes across any of these mistakes not to point it out and I am sure that the translators themselves would not be the least offended. No, I don't speak Portuguese (my Spanish is good and is similar) - something I know that I have explained to you previously. Nowhere in the mis-translated phrase discussed above does the Portuguese statement say 'she does not remember whether.......', the words clearly translate as 'she has no idea whether....'. Simple as that - in black and white, and simply because of the importance of correct translation, I wouldn't have posted it unless I was 100% confident. Feel free to ask any native speaker to check.

by dartinghero 11.11.17 17:35

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]/[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - yes, you are quite right about the creche activity sheets/Saturday being the arrival day and hence most likely to have been the day the creche was closed. However, I have to disagree [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that the any of the nannys were so young/nervous/brain dead that they were incapable of remembering or articulating what set day of the week the kid club was closed. There isn't even a 'I can't remember', involved - all three make a clear statement. What the relevance is, I have no idea but I'm not prepared to ignore things just because I don't understand them.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - with ref to the translation. I think we have been down this road before. Yes, I appreciate the immense amount of work put in to translate the files - something I am sure we are all extremely grateful for. However, the fact remains that certain phrases have been mis-translated. It would be very remiss of anyone who comes across any of these mistakes not to point it out and I am sure that the translators themselves would not be the least offended. No, I don't speak Portuguese (my Spanish is good and is similar) - something I know that I have explained to you previously. Nowhere in the mis-translated phrase discussed above does the Portuguese statement say 'she does not remember whether.......', the words clearly translate as 'she has no idea whether....'. Simple as that - in black and white, and simply because of the importance of correct translation, I wouldn't have posted it unless I was 100% confident. Feel free to ask any native speaker to check.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Particularly since one of the three who gets it wrong is supposed to be head of baby and mini clubs...and you would hope might be a cut above!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. with respect, I don't think that because the translations are carried out by people volunteering their time is a reason not to question something. We are all human. Like you, I appreciate their time and efforts.

by **HiDeHo** 11.11.17 18:11

I have claimed Fatima's statement to be credible for many reasons and unless someone can explain otherwise, I see no issue with her approaching the entrance way on the way to help her mother in 5I (next to the Paynes apartment where they had lunch)

Depending on her approach she could have seen them leaving the apartment and not seeing the doorway so unable to see if Gerry locked the door or not.

She followed up the stairs and went to the next apartment and would likely have been aware of them on the adjoining balcony.

She would not have known this was happening unless she was privy to what she saw. Maddie with a plate, the shoes with the lights (which appear to be those worn by Maddie and Amelie in photos) and was in the apartment next to them having lunch in the Paynes.

I find her statement very credible.

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by skyrocket 11.11.17 18:39

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I completely agree, Fatima's statement comes across as entirely credible. Apologies if my posts above gave any suggestion otherwise.

by Guest 11.11.17 21:08

This is a random snip from Kate McCann's witness statement..

The routines

The day after their arrival, they went for breakfast at around 7.30/8.30 at the Ocean Club, in a bar situated some distance from the apartment. On the following days, because the bar was quite far away, they started buying supplies from the "BAPTISTE" supermarket, located on the same road as the apartment and they had their first meal of the day in the apartment.

This is google translate into Portuguese..

As rotinas

No dia seguinte à sua chegada, eles foram para o café da manhã em torno das 7h30 / 8h30 no Ocean Club, em um bar situado a alguma distância do apartamento. Nos dias seguintes, porque o bar estava bastante distante, eles começaram a comprar suprimentos do supermercado "BAPTISTE", localizado na mesma estrada que o apartamento e eles tiveram a primeira refeição do dia no apartamento.

This is Kate McCann's witness statement in Portuguese as contained in the PJ files(starts at line 41 ends line 46) ..

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As can be seen, no comparison. This is why accredited translators/interpreters are employed when a professional approach is required.

by Guest 11.11.17 21:21

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - with ref to the translation. I think we have been down this road before. Yes, I appreciate the immense amount of work put in to translate the files - something I am sure we are all extremely grateful for. However, the fact remains that certain phrases have been mis-translated. It would be very remiss of anyone who comes across any of these mistakes not to point it out and I am sure that the translators themselves would not be the least offended. No, I don't speak Portuguese (my Spanish is good and is similar) - something I know that I have explained to you previously.

Yes [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] , we have been this way before - you didn't speak Portuguese then and by your own admission, you don't speak Portuguese now.

Spanish is not Portuguese any more than Portuguese is Spanish, nor can a years sojourn in a country equate to having a good knowledge of the language.

Let's leave the translation/interpretation to the professionals eh? Otherwise it will only add more confusion to an already confused case - as can be seen from this afternoons reaction.

Now can we please get back to evidence that Madeleine was seen alive and well by a reliable witness on Sunday 29th April 2007.

by **HiDeHo** 11.11.17 21:37

As far as the translations go, I know Ines was still translating just a few years ago and was ALWAYS rechecking any that were done quickly by others at the beginning as well as being willing to check any that were brought to her attention. There is no question that I have full faith in her abilities, as well as Joana and Astro.

IF there had been any issues, I think we can be sure that, because the original Portuguese is available, had there been any reasonable issues the 'pros' would have checked the original and pointed it out.

I can't begin to thank them for what they did....as we know £100,000 of translations VOLUNTARILY!

Would we still be here if they weren't translated?

by Guest 12.11.17 0:26

David Payne witness statement - 4th May 2007

No specific mention of Sunday 29th May.

[Note: David Payne was not reinterviewed during the second round on 10th/11th May 2007]

David Payne's rogatory interview - 11th April 2008

Err you know we, you know we all went err to Millennium, again I, whether it was the Saturday night or the Sunday night I'm not, I can't recall.'

later..

1485 "Okay. So let's move on to the next day, your first full day which is the Sunday.'

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Tell me as much as you can.'

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "From the time you got up till the time you went to bed.'

Reply "I think err from my point of view, you know I find it very difficult to recall the exact events you know err you know on a day to day err basis. You know I find it easier just to say generally what happened you know during the week than''

1485 "Well the first day you would have sorted out your activities wouldn't you''

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "So if that helps you''

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "To at least get the first day out the way.'

Reply "Yeah, err you know we, I mean the one thing that we, me and Fiona were quite keen on would be to err you know there was, on the water sports err side of things. Err we were keen to put the kids into the creche you know for the morning, err you know we were gonna look, you know the, ours tended to sleep during the afternoon so err you know on the, again we'd have perhaps gone down to the water, you know the water sports area just to you know maybe to sign up for courses there, err as I say we were just generally interested in trying to err windsurf and perhaps go on the dinghies. Err other members of the group were really interested in you know the tennis side of things and getting the lessons but I'm really sorry I can't remember exactly.'

1485 "Where did you breakfast on the first day''

Reply "Err I mean we could you know obviously there's the Supermarket, which wasn't too err far away, did we all go up, I'm trying to think whether we went to the Millennium for the breakfast or whether we went to the Supermarket on the first day. I can't remember, I'm sorry.'

Reply "Okay, and you mentioned your creches.

Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Did you take your''

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "What time would you have taken them to the creche''

Reply "I mean well Lily and err Scarlet you know, being the different age groups, were in different places and err Scarlet was down by the err the actual reception at the Ocean Club and err Scarlet, err Lily was up at the err Tapas bar. Err so generally Fi would take Scarlet after breakfast err which we you know we did often have. Again you know we stayed on for four weeks unfortunately after and you know we had breakfast in the apartment and it just blurs.'

1485 "Yeah.'

Reply "One into the other, whether you know we were at the Millennium but I seem to remember that we would generally go to the Millennium. There was one morning I can recollect that err you know that Kate and Gerry were walking back and found it difficult because Sean and Amelie were, as I say, in the age where they wanted to walk but it was difficult to get them and I think they were, you know generally thinking that the Millennium for breakfast wasn't probably a particularly a good idea, which you know I think more often than not we generally ate at the Millennium, err and then after we'd eaten breakfast there which, and again I think finished at nine o' clock, we would then, you know after we'd finished breakfast try and get them down to err you know drop them off at the Ocean Club or at the creche by the Tapas, then you know depending on whether there was anything going on that morning from the sporting point of view then you know we'd go wherever. Err you know mixed into the melee was you know we often went in the morning to the Supermarket to do a bit of a shop and you know with a big group that we seemed to get through things pretty quickly and err so as I say I'm afraid one day does blur into another, I can't really recall specifics.'

1485 "Okay. I understand that your apartment was like the meeting place.'

Reply "Yes.'

1485 "Can you recall that''

Reply "Yes, definitely. Err you know, I, I, it just happened you know the way it happened you know people just gravitated up to err to our room err you know it's, I suppose some part we'd got Dianne there who is fantastic at you know helping, you know it's a free set of hands whereas you know Russ and Jane obviously they've got two, and we've got two and so you know it was good that we've got someone extra to help out while you know someone's preparing the food, keep an eye on the children, err so often you know we would, you know we'd con, congregate there at lunch time and quite often if I remember Matt and Rachael would bring Grace along and you know we'd eat there together. Err a lot of the time we didn't tend to see you know Kate and Gerry you know it was more Russell and Jane primarily I remember, and sometimes Matt and Rachael and Grace but generally err Kate and Gerry would do their own thing err you know during the day, so that's, but they you know they would still come up you know from time to time. So it was well used at the, that first floor.'

1485 "Was it, I notice you say that you didn't see much of Kate and Gerry and you that sparsely see Russell and, was it something that you discussed before the holiday that you was gonna all do your own thing in the day then just meet up for night time''

Reply "Err no, no it was just one of these things that you know naturally happened err I think the children, you do whatever is the easiest and you know you fall into a pattern and it just seemed, you know whenever you wanted to put your kids down or whenever they were tired or you know as I say ours slept in the afternoon but I'm, you know for example I know that Sean and Amelie didn't you know tend to have sleeps err you know and Madeleine, during the day. So you know they, yeah their time was pretty occupied right from first thing in the morning till''

by Guest 12.11.17 7:16

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I completely agree, Fatima's statement comes across as entirely credible. Apologies if my posts above gave any suggestion otherwise.

I got that immediately - you were not questioning the credibility.

The translation of "no idea" as opposed to "can't remember" made it even more credible.

Good research.

As I said first time it seems legit.