Do you believe something happened earlier than May 3rd ? If so, how did the McCanns manage to deceive everyone at the creche?

Logic - music to my ears!  With a generous helping of common sense.

MMRG wrote:We would further add that, if, as has been suggested, the crèche sheets were left downstairs at Ocean Club reception (by no means an unlikely suggestion) then it would be the easiest thing for one of the McCanns just to sign in Madeleine on the crèche sheet,

I disagree, I think it highly unlikely that the crèche record sheets were kept at the Ocean Club reception.  That aside, it makes no allowances for collection of the children - or signing out if you prefer.  If the witness statements are to be believed, the children were taken for high tea at the Tapas restaurant, where they would have been signed out by the parent, not the crèche.  This indicates the record sheets were taken to the Tapas restaurant by the respective child carer - any other arrangement would be totally irresponsible and putting children's welfare at risk.

As I've said over and over again, logic which some refuse to accept or even acknowledge.  According to the McCanns version of the truth, Madeleine did not disappear from the crèche, she disappeared when tucked up in bed in apartment 5a on the night of 3rd May.  The formal questioning of the crèche workers would be routine policing to establish the relationship between child and parent, if the child appeared unwell or emotionally/physically damaged, the general demeanour of the child and if anything or anyone suspicious was noticed in the children's presence. They were not interviewed as suspects or persons of interest.

Plus they were interpreted by Robert Murat, who for some unknown reason, volunteered his services to the PJ (being bi-lingual) and was suspected by one particular police officer, of prying into the investigation - sticking his nose in where it didn't belong.

Again I say, take into consideration the creche workers witness statements were not recorded verbatim, clearly (and logically) they were all asked the same specific questions from a list (routine policing), it stands to reason the replies would be similar in content..

Q.  'Can you remember seeing Madeleine McCann at the crèche'  
A.  Yes, I think she was there with the other kids - she wasn't in my group but if she was signed in she must have been there'

No one has said 'I solemnly swear by almighty god, or some other deity, that I saw Madeleine McCann at the crèche every day from Sunday 29th April until Thursday 3rd May 2007'.

It only takes one, or maybe two, to steer the direction of the investigation.  Catriona Baker had responsibility for the group that Madeleine was allegedly attending, a group of no more than seven children, mostly three four or five at any given session - Charlotte Pennington is a fantasist with delusions of grandeur.  She arrived at the same time as some of the McCanns group of friends, she traveled on the same transit bus from the airport, she was not listed amongst the initial childcare workers contracted by Mark Warner for the season.  She arrived and hey-presto became one of the childcare team.  She called herself a child educator - said to be responsible for a very small group of babies.

 

Can anyone explain this? The 29.4.07 entries for twins have an "in" time of 14:25 and an OUT time of 12:30:

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All other entries for the other children appear to be correct, as they are signed out AFTER the time they were signed in. What could possibly explain the error in the McCann's children's entries?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I think it might read 17.30.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I agree, I don't think the record sheets would have been kept anywhere other than in the relevant creche rooms. The room above the main reception was accessed independently of the reception - if in fact that is where the club was held.


The more I look at the nannys, the more interesting Shinead becomes.
 
-       Shinead was looking after the twins (in one of the 3 Toddler2 sub-groups) during the week, apart from Thursday 3 May, which apparently was her day off. On this day, Stacey Portz, Head of the Toddler2 group is shown as looking after the twins;
-       Despite being shown as in work on Friday 4 May (we are told in the tented crèche next to the Tapas Restaurant/Bar), the PJ are refused access to her (by Stacey Portz) for an informal interview;
-       In her statement Shinead says that she only met/saw Madeleine once during the week, at some point soon after Madeleine’s arrival (the word arrival is used);
-       She cites the fact that she is working with the Toddler2 group as the reason that she doesn’t know Madeleine and yet the other 3 nannys involved in the Toddler2’s use the very same fact as the reason why they DO know Madeleine. It would seem reasonable to assume that Shinead should have had the greatest contact with the Mcs, and by default, Madeleine;
-       Shinead is one of the three nannys who state that the crèche is closed on Sundays, except for the evening dinner drop in service;
-       She is the only nanny to state that she did not follow the missing child procedure, and her statement infers that others didn’t either;
-       She states that there are 15 nannys in total, a figure which agrees with the list provided by Donna Hill to the PJ, which includes Hayley May Crawford (was she moonlighting as an evening nanny after her daytime work at the adult pool?).
 
Assuming for a minute that something happened to Madeleine that weekend, if Shinead met the McCanns at a crèche sign-up late Saturday afternoon or on the Sunday morning, isn’t it likely that she, along with Cat Baker, would be one of the two nannys most likely to have actually met Madeleine? Might Shinead then perhaps realize that she hadn’t seen her again that week, whereas other nannys might be easily duped into thinking that they had seen/been in contact with Madeleine during the week (when in fact they were mixing MBM up with another quieter/shyer child, as they describe)?
 
Shinead’s statement seems to back up the fact that many of the nannys were confused about which child was actually Madeleine.
 
Did Shinead then refuse to play ball – hence the need to keep the PJ away from her on the 4 May?
 
I don’t think there was a need for the nannys to be lying en masse, although several of them could have been drawn in and probably made to doubt their own judgement. IMO, beyond this group of relative innocents, Charlotte, Cat and Amy stand out as highly questionable.

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I think it might read 17.30.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I agree, I don't think the record sheets would have been kept anywhere other than in the relevant creche rooms. The room above the main reception was accessed independently of the reception - if in fact that is where the club was held.

 
The more I look at the nannys, the more interesting Shinead becomes.
 
-       Shinead was looking after the twins (in one of the 3 Toddler2 sub-groups) during the week, apart from Thursday 3 May, which apparently was her day off. On this day, Stacey Portz, Head of the Toddler2 group is shown as looking after the twins;
-       Despite being shown as in work on Friday 4 May (we are told in the tented crèche next to the Tapas Restaurant/Bar), the PJ are refused access to her (by Stacey Portz) for an informal interview;
-       In her statement Shinead says that she only met/saw Madeleine once during the week, at some point soon after Madeleine’s arrival (the word arrival is used);
-       She cites the fact that she is working with the Toddler2 group as the reason that she doesn’t know Madeleine and yet the other 3 nannys involved in the Toddler2’s use the very same fact as the reason why they DO know Madeleine. It would seem reasonable to assume that Shinead should have had the greatest contact with the Mcs, and by default, Madeleine;
-       Shinead is one of the three nannys who state that the crèche is closed on Sundays, except for the evening dinner drop in service;
-       She is the only nanny to state that she did not follow the missing child procedure, and her statement infers that others didn’t either;
-       She states that there are 15 nannys in total, a figure which agrees with the list provided by Donna Hill to the PJ, which includes Hayley May Crawford (was she moonlighting as an evening nanny after her daytime work at the adult pool?).
 
Assuming for a minute that something happened to Madeleine that weekend, if Shinead met the McCanns at a crèche sign-up late Saturday afternoon or on the Sunday morning, isn’t it likely that she, along with Cat Baker, would be one of the two nannys most likely to have actually met Madeleine? Might Shinead then perhaps realize that she hadn’t seen her again that week, whereas other nannys might be easily duped into thinking that they had seen/been in contact with Madeleine during the week (when in fact they were mixing MBM up with another quieter/shyer child, as they describe)?
 
Shinead’s statement seems to back up the fact that many of the nannys were confused about which child was actually Madeleine.
 
Did Shinead then refuse to play ball – hence the need to keep the PJ away from her on the 4 May?
 
I don’t think there was a need for the nannys to be lying en masse, although several of them could have been drawn in and probably made to doubt their own judgement. IMO, beyond this group of relative innocents, Charlotte, Cat and Amy stand out as highly questionable.

Skyrocket, on closer inspection, you are most probably correct. It's 17:30 not 12:30. The seven is a written as a continental 7, and therefore, makes it look like a 2 to my aging eyesight.  This is why I don't spend too much time on the crèche records as they are rather blur for my eyesight,  So, I will leave the visuals for those with better eyesight than I have, and look forward to reading your findings

On the afternoon of May 1st, Izzy Carpenter is signed into the Lobsters group at 2.40 p.m. This entry has then had a line drawn through it, suggesting it was an error. Now, Izzy's name never appeared on the "Lobsters'" register on any other occasion, and according to Stephen Carpenter's rogatory statement she was in Emma Wilding's mini-club group. How did her mother manage to get hold of the wrong sheet when signing her in on May 1st if the individual nannies retained their own registration sheets? If she got it from Cat, was Cat, after 5 creche sessions at this stage, still unable to recognize which children belonged to her group?
 
 However she got hold of it she seems to have magically signed it out of sync! The  children  are signed in as follows-  Madeleine McCann, Jessica Berry, Tia Patel and Ella O'Brien (all at 2.30 pm). 
Next to be signed in are William Totman and Izzy Carpenter (both at 2.40 pm)
 Then, somehow or other, Elizabeth Naylor and Alexander Mann (the latter signed in as Richard, his parent's name) manage to sign in at 2.30 pm. but are written on the sheet AFTER the the Totman and Carpenter children who arrived ten minutes later than them!!
 The morning sheet sign in runs as one would expect, with the children named and signed in in chronological order ie. the earliest arrivals first followed by the others increasingly later. ie. 9a.m.; 9.10 a.m.; 9.20 a.m; 9.25 a.m; 9.30 a.m.

This was the day when there wasn’t the usual gap between AM & PM sessions......or maybe there was, only to be filled by GM signing Madeleine “last out/first in”

sallypelt wrote:Can anyone explain this? The 29.4.07 entries for twins have an "in" time of 14:25 and an OUT time of 12:30:

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All other entries for the other children appear to be correct, as they are signed out AFTER the time they were signed in. What could possibly explain the error in the McCann's children's entries?

I believe it to be 17.30  A 7 with a line through the middle.

Phoebe wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

How do we explain Madeleine being signed back into the crèche at 2.30 if, a Kate says in her book, they had a family trip to the beach and the kids were returned to the crèche for the last hour?

Who is telling the truth here? Anyone?

According to Kate McCann in her book.  On May 1st, they took the children to the beach for the afternoon, returning them to the crèche for the last hour.

Then we have this from Cat Baker 


Day 01-05-2007

Gerald McCann

Kids Club

ROUTINE yesterday she received Madeleine at 09.10, Madeleine was handed over by her father. She looked after Madeleine from Sunday 29-04-2007 daily and until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 – 9.10.00

Beach

Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.
Catriona Baker page 870
01-05-2007 15.30.00


Kate Marie Healy

Kids Club

ROUTINE she handed Madeleine over to her mother at 12.25. She looked after Madeleine from Sunday 29-04-2007, daily and until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 12.25.00


Kids Club
ROUTINE she received Madeleine again from her mother at 14.50. She looked after Madeleine daily from Sunday 29-04-2007 until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 14.50.00

Kids Club
ROUTINE she handed Madeleine over at 17.30. She looked after Madeleine daily from Sunday 29-04-2007 until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88


We know that the McCanns had a closed in double buggy.  I believe that the twins were in the crèche that afternoon as per the crèche records, so why did the McCanns take a closed up double buggy down to the beach on a rainy day when no one else was likely to be there?

Madeleine could not have been at the crèche or with Cat Baker at this point.  Obviously if she was already dead, she wouldn't have been there and if she was alive, Kate McCann would have no reason to lie about the family trip to the beach.  So for what reason Is Cat Baker saying that Madeleine was with her at the beach?

An extract from the Comparison Timetables for the week for 2pm - 3pm

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They claimed to have stayed at the beach for 20 mins Paddled and ate Ice Creams and Kates Diary claims they bought sunglasses on the way back and dropped the children off at their creches



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The diagram of events according to Catriona claims KATE dropped Maddie off at 2.50 and the children went to the beach at 3.30pm until 4.30pm  NOTE: Keep in mind that Kirst Maryan claims to have taken Maddie to the beach on one of the afternoons before taking them to the Tapas for high tea (statement posted above) 


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I find this interesting...

It needs to be confirmed of course, but it appears that they stayed by the pool after 1.30pm Tuesday (putting on protective creams) and then took the children to the creche until 5 -5.30

Can anyone confirm anything else from this Diagram?


Ill get there in the end but it would be easier if I knew Portuguese :)


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HiDeHo


Look back at my previous post.  This is what Kate says happened but it doesn't tie in with the crèche records and what Cat says.  

Why the rush to buy sunglasses on the way back?  It was raining.

Sunglasses purchase was important to KM as it ‘proved’ that the last photo couldn’t have been taken earlier than the Tuesday afternoon as he didn’t have any!

Tuesday afternoon is probably the most interesting of the drop off schedules and helps  explain the purpose of this thread.

From the statements (see above timetable) they claim to have gone to the beach, bought 5 ice creams (5? Attempt to establish all the children were there?) and stopped off for sunglasses (to establish the last photo was taken AFTER Tuesday?) They claim to have stayed there 20 mins.

I have always questioned the coincidence of Ice Creams on the beach followed by (according to records) Gerry dropping of Maddie at 2.30 AND Kate dropping off twins at 2.30 (10 mins away from Maddies creche) and then Maddie beiing taken BACK to the beach for ice creams (I feel sure there is a connection as to why the ice cream comment but haven't figured it out yet)

Catriona's early statements to be interpreted in a very 'generic' way referring to a routine for the week that covered all days.  HOWEVER, in April 2008 when she gave her rogatory interview she was there over the course of a few hours and was allowed to be reminded of her original interviews and CHANGE THEM!

We, therefore, do not know exactly what portions of her original statements were changed (and being AFTER her visit to Rothley in November...maybe also at the Secret Rothley Meeting... where I believe the discussions included 'reminders' of what happened that week)

Thanks Sharon for referring to Kates book  (I often forget to check that but 'quotes' so just as important as a statement imo)

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So Kate says they put them in creche for last hour and half (meaning 3.15 before they left the creche to walk to the tapas or 4pm before they were picked up?)


What I found particularly interesting was something I had not heard of before which was included in the Diagram above.  Just a Google translation of my 'guess' of the text.

Google translation from Diagram for Tuesday lunchtime wrote:'After lunch around 1:30 p.m., the children stayed by the pool of the club for the parents for about 45 mins where they were to be placed in protective creams'

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IN REFERENCE TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD...

With all the above in mind, and with the likelihood that Maddie was not there,  HERE IS MY SUGGESTION 

Gerry 'supposedly' dropped off Maddie at 2.30pm
Catriona wrote in (at some point) that RoB dropped off Ella AT THE SAME TIME.

Is it possible that only ONE child was dropped off?

Then to the pick up...

There is NO notation of Gerry picking up Maddie but RoB picked up Ella.

Is it POSSIBLE that ONE child (Ella?)was dropped off and the SAME CHILD (Ella?) was picked up?

ALSO, possibly worthy of note, that the PJ analysis of that day was not released in the files

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HiDeHo, it looks to me as if the PJ may have constructed the diagram based on Kate's statement of 4th May in which she described the daily routine:
" After lunch, at around 1.30pm, the children spend time close to the club's swimming pool, supervised by the parents, for about 45 minutes, where they play and have sun cream applied."
Rotina = routine.
The diagram is not showing up very clearly to me, but perhaps it is the case that the PJ were not referring particularly to the Tuesday, but assuming from Kate's statement that this was every day, unless stated otherwise.

I find the whole shenanigans almost beyond comprehension. Is there anyone else with the following mindset ?

That the weeks "holiday" included some nefarious goings-on that COULD result in an unfortunate situation/accident. Thus, in the murky world government/spooks etc, there was always a Plan B should the worst happen.

It is my opinion, based on all the current research, that Madeleine met her demise on Sunday or Monday and, even with 4 days until the "abduction" scenario, I just cannot for the life of me comprehend the sheer complexity of the cover-up, the assets moved into place, the layering of the misinformation.

Yes, I accept that some manipulation of the original information either to fit an evolving scenario or to further reinforce the abduction theory is possible but they've done such a damn fine job of it.

Which is why, even with the power of the internet, we are still picking over the morsels almost 11 years later.

polyenne wrote:I find the whole shenanigans almost beyond comprehension. Is there anyone else with the following mindset ?

That the weeks "holiday" included some nefarious goings-on that COULD result in an unfortunate situation/accident. Thus, in the murky world government/spooks etc, there was always a Plan B should the worst happen.

It is my opinion, based on all the current research, that Madeleine met her demise on Sunday or Monday and, even with 4 days until the "abduction" scenario, I just cannot for the life of me comprehend the sheer complexity of the cover-up, the assets moved into place, the layering of the misinformation.

Yes, I accept that some manipulation of the original information either to fit an evolving scenario or to further reinforce the abduction theory is possible but they've done such a damn fine job of it.

Which is why, even with the power of the internet, we are still picking over the morsels almost 11 years later.

It's almost as if this was planned before the "I'm not here to f***ing enjoy myself" holiday.

Which has always been my opinion.

I'm going under here again.... 

eta: I should add that it's not just Gerry's comment that makes me think that. In fact it's not even that comment at all that makes me think it was pre-planned.

From another angle..

12 Outros Apensos Vol XII Annex 59

PAGE 59

Diagram of Events 59
Day 01-05-2007

Gerald McCann

Kids Club

ROUTINE yesterday she received Madeleine at 09.10, Madeleine was handed over by her father. She looked after Madeleine from Sunday 29-04-2007 daily and until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 – 9.10.00

Beach

Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.
Catriona Baker page 870
01-05-2007 15.30.00


Kate Marie Healy

Kids Club

ROUTINE she handed Madeleine over to her mother at 12.25. She looked after Madeleine from Sunday 29-04-2007, daily and until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 12.25.00


Kids Club
ROUTINE she received Madeleine again from her mother at 14.50. She looked after Madeleine daily from Sunday 29-04-2007 until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 14.50.00

Kids Club
ROUTINE she handed Madeleine over at 17.30. She looked after Madeleine daily from Sunday 29-04-2007 until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 17.30.00

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mezzyd wrote:....it looks to me as if the PJ may have constructed the diagram based on Kate's statement of 4th May in which she described the daily routine:

There can be no other acceptable explanation - where else could the PJ have got such information. At the beginning, the entire investigation was based on the McCanns and their friends version of events - and there was the problem.

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It stands to reason that the outdoor activities would have to be adjusted according to weather conditions , the children are hardly likely to be taken to the beach or the grass or the swimming pool or the tennis courts, if it was wissing with rain or freezing cold.

I venture to suggest, the weekly activities sheet was only a rough roster subject to change according to weather, child attendance etc.

Mark Warner childcare leavers highlighted in green..

Rhiannon Groves
Elizabeth Mills
Mark shutt
Sarah-Jayne Tily

All four arrived at the Ocean Club on 21st March 2007 and were schedulted to leave on 7th November 2007, neither of them had responsibility for the Lobster club.

The leaving date for the majority of childcare workers was 7th November 2007.  Catriona Baker visited the McCanns home in Rothley in November 2007 by their invitation - apparently, although I don't think the precise date has ever been established, an educated guess would be around the time of the Rothley Court Hotel conclave.

Was Catriona Baker really shipped off to another resort a week or so after Madeleine McCann's alledged disappearance - has there ever been any official source to confirm the veracity of this claimed early departure?  It appears rather a coincidence that Baker's contract was due to end on 7th November 2007 and within days, she was visiting the McCanns and their home.  How did they know how or where to contact Baker?

During her rogatory interview, Baker claims to have been moved from the Ocean Club a week or so after Madeleine disappeared, as she claims to have privately visited the McCanns 'to see how they were getting on' in November 2007.  I believe her departure from the Ocean Club was mentioned by the UK press many moons ago - that can't be considered an official souirce in any way shape or form.

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The date on Catriona pics establishes she was there around the time of the Rothley  Secret Meeting.  Just in time for her (and others?) to be guided as to what to say in their rogatories.

In Catrionas case she was able (in April 2008) to remind herself of what was in her original statements and change them.

What you read from her original statements are not necessarily what she said in 2007.


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So they did met up to discuss what they may say to the police in another interview, but they wanted to keep this meeting secret.

 Very telling

It has to be before the "They've taken her!" night. In all reality, they'd have to have been far too damn lucky to pull off what they have in such a short space of time. I also don't believe she was moved in their hire car a few weeks after this, but that..something very close to her...was.

Basil with a brush wrote:It has to be before the "They've taken her!" night. In all reality, they'd have to have been far too damn lucky to pull off what they have in such a short space of time. I also don't believe she was moved in their hire car a few weeks after this, but that..something very close to her...was.

Like what?

Didn't Amaral say there was bodily fluids in the car that could only come from a refrigerated/frozen body?

Photographer: Jamie Jones/REX/Shutterstock

McCann Family Going to Church, Rothley, Leicestershire, Britain - 25 Nov 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann walking to church with the twins Sean and Amelie
25 Nov 2007

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Verdi wrote:Photographer:  Jamie Jones/REX/Shutterstock

McCann Family Going to Church, Rothley, Leicestershire, Britain - 25 Nov 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann walking to church with the twins Sean and Amelie
25 Nov 2007

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Maybe it's just me , but jeans , trainers all round and a tatty old jumper for Gerry looks more like they're taking the kids to play in the park or a country walk than going to church ? 

Am I just old fashioned ( not a church goer either ) I was always under the impression that people wore decent clothes attending church ? 

Neither of them are exactly known for their sartorial elegance though are they ?

sandancer wrote:Neither of them are exactly known for their sartorial elegance though are they ?

Madeleine McCann's parents thank public for their support as they attend prayer service on seventh anniversary of their daughter's disappearance

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I rest your case   .

That particular image is 6 months after Madeleine vanished, not seven years...or were they doing monthly "anniversaries" back then? It still wouldn't be the seventh would it?