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If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

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If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by HiDeHo on Sun Sep 04 2016, 20:28

As can be seen in the video below, there were huge discrepancies and/or confusion about who picked up Madeleine...and also the TWINS...


According to the PJ Diagram of \events it appears that the twins only went in the AFTERNOON and not the morning!

This would explain why Kate and Gerry could not get their story straight about picking up the twins...

Many of us also believe that Maddie was not at the creche either so that leaves us wondering, did they LIE about taking and picking up the twins from the tapas creche and IF SO... What were they doing?

This could make a huge difference to what everyone has told us...

Rachael claims that Maddie and twins went to creche..

Jez tells us that two of Gerrys friends were NOT at tennis Thursday morning... (and more)

This has only just come to my attention, as previously I thought the twins creche records were missing from the files, but the diagram of events \'tells us' they weren't needed as the twins were not at the tapas creche!









McMINUTE DISCREPANCIES: Who picked up Madeleine from the creche on Thursday? 



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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Verdi on Mon Sep 05 2016, 00:03

I may not always agree with you but I do acknowledge and appreciate all your hard work.  Too much for me to read at this time of day - slowly slowly.

Just wanted to say thanks howdy .

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by skyrocket on Mon Sep 05 2016, 10:07

@HiDeHo


Just when you think there is nothing new left to see in the creche records, something suddenly hits you. Your excellent, questioning posts focus the mind on the minutiae.


Could it be that Thursday morning was related to something that was happening on Wednesday morning/afternoon (2 May)?


We are told from several quarters that Wed morning started wet and that, the beginner and intermediate, group tennis sessions (scheduled for 9am and 10am) were re-scheduled after lunch that day. Whatever, the truth, this scenario frees up the Mc's from being tied to the tennis courts as usual on Wednesday morning at least.


If we look at the mini creche sheet for Wed 2 May, one of the things that stands out are the number of times the 'parent signature' is actually signed by 'Cat Nanny'. We see that Madeleine is signed in by Gerry at 9.20am and out by Cat at 12.30pm. The 'C' of Cat looks like it is overwriting a 'K' beneath - was someone going to try and sign K.McCann and then changed their mind? Madeleine is then signed back in at 2.45pm, with a bit of a dodgy looking K.McCann signature, and back out at 5.30pm by the K.M.Healy signature.


So, where were Kate and Gerry at 12.30pm - why aren't they shown as picking Madeleine up if they were there to pick the twins up?


If we look at the twins' Toddler2 creche sheets, both Amelie and Sean were signed in by Gerry at 9.10am and out by Kate at 12.25pm - I would suggest all 3 signatures might be suspect. They are back in at 2.40pm (Kate) and out at 5.20pm (Gerry) - again the signatures are all so inconsistent it is difficult to judge which are genuine. In the morning no location is given for the parents and the first mobile number has been written down wrongly. In the afternoon the location/activity is given as 'tennis'.


Now, if we look at the 'parents location' on Madeleine's 2 May creche sheet, we can see a short word squeezed in next to the first mobile number. It took me a couple of minutes to realise what it says - definitely not tennis; tapas; pool; room; beach. Looks like a place name - possibly Peva/Pexa, but no such places in the Algarve. I'm fairly certain that it's 'PeNA'. Purely as an aside, in Spain 'Pena' is usually associated with high rocky outcrops, and with tales of woe normally relating to doomed love and suicidal leaps - not in a ghoulish sense, but more poetic, as in Romeo and Juliet.  Incidentally, in Spain the word translates as 'sorrow', and in Portuguese as 'suffer, experience loss or harm; endure misfortune'. 


I googled 'Pena, Algarve', and the first return was 'Rocha da Pena' a well known Algarve beauty spot just outside the village of Pena on the N124, less than an hours drive to the north east of Luz. The area is a protected wildlife region and the rocha itself is a high limestone escarpment reached by a walk up through wild and rocky terrain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzrhhwKgL1Q



Is this where the Mc's were on Wednesday morning and/or afternoon? If so, they had a lift with someone else (several hire cars within the Mark Warner guest group) or they had direct access to a car themselves. We know they enjoy hiking (ref Paul Cameron's Donegal photos from Easter 2007) and that any rain cleared up quite quickly. Were they there with all/some of their children? 


Purely speculating, could this also have been where they all were on the Thursday 3 May, when the twins were not in creche i.e. did they return for some reason? 


I have a problem relying on any records; any statements. But, I do believe that they are based on a core of actual events with just the incriminating ones removed or re-worked. It's possible that some of the info which should have been removed was overlooked.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Doug D on Mon Sep 05 2016, 10:49




Copy of the crèche sheets for 2nd May from Nigels site:
 
Writing before the phone number could just about be ‘Pena’ or many other things, at first glance ‘Room’ jumps out to me.
 
Without seeing the original document and/or interviewing the writer/crèche workers we are never going to know.

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Doug D on Mon Sep 05 2016, 10:52

Even less clear copy from Pamalam's site:


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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by skyrocket on Mon Sep 05 2016, 11:20

@DougD

Thanks for posting the relevant sheet. 

You may well be right. As always, your opinion is as equally valid as mine or anyone's. We don't seem to agree on any of the handwritten records! 

Anyway, the suggestion I made is out there for others to mull over. .
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by HiDeHo on Mon Sep 05 2016, 11:44

A little better?




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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by MayMuse on Mon Sep 05 2016, 12:00

Looks like Room to me also.
So would that fit if it was wet and tennis rearranged for the afternoon?
Enjoy how your brain works @skyrocket winkwink

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by skyrocket on Mon Sep 05 2016, 12:09

@HiDeHo

Firstly - thanks very much. Much better!

Secondly - flippin heck! At low mag I'm still seeing 'PeNA'; at high mag, still 'PeNA' (although admittedly not as clearly and it looks like overwriting may have taken place). BUT, bizarrely, I can now see the outline (no fill) of an uppercase, printed 'M' between the final letter and the zero of the mobile number!

I genuinely can't see 'Room' at low or high mag - but that might just be my brain.

Unfortunately, when Maria the cleaner gives her statement about G & K being on their own and just leaving 5A on Wed 2 May, she doesn't give a time.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by skyrocket on Mon Sep 05 2016, 12:13

@MayMuse - thanks! smilie 

Might (was going to say 'must' but I'm a bit stubborn) just be me then!

Least you've all learnt a bit about an Algarve beauty spot.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by roz on Sat Feb 25 2017, 16:09

(I am not sure if this is the right place to put this.)
Jacqueline Mary Williams, Pre-school teacher, OC
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.

I can only deduce that this ‘mother of a child’ was Bullen (Carroll) whose son was in the Jellyfish group with the twins (and Lily), and who had also been dining at the Tapas that evening (Thursday) from 7.00pm. If so, she was still in the Tapas area when Kate returned to raise the alarm.
Bullen then walked from this area to the Night crèche /Mini Club (to collect her son?), and told the staff there.
It may not be of much relevance, but is this how Amy Tierney etc, seemed to ‘know’ it was Maddie McCann? (I have noticed how ‘busy’ AT was on the Thursday night.)
I would like to have read Bullen’s statement re Kate raising the alarm, (and what time), but I do not see one.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Philip Anders on Sat Feb 25 2017, 16:39

Why does Kate alternate between McCann & Healy?
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by roz on Sat Feb 25 2017, 17:12

Possibly she only signed McCann for creche purposes, and signed Healy that Wednesday because her mind was somewhere else; (possibly part of the grieving process.)
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by roz on Sat Feb 25 2017, 17:30

I think Kate could have signed it ‘Going to be abducted’ and Cat would not have noticed.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 25 2017, 18:00

MayMuse wrote:Looks like Room to me also.
So would that fit if it was wet and tennis rearranged for the afternoon?
Enjoy how your brain works @skyrocket winkwink
Hi - it was transcribed by the police as room and I think it says room May 2 and Tennis/Room May 3 as I blew it up and it definitely looks like room but your idea is way more interesting. I noticed that May 3 Gerry signs Maddie in at 9.10 but Kate takes sole responsibility (it seems) collecting Maddie, returning Maddie and taking the twins and collecting them. Where was Gerry?
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by JRP on Sat Feb 25 2017, 21:25

Philip Anders wrote:Why does Kate alternate between McCann & Healy?

Maybe somebody didn't know she used the name Healy, and presumed when signing on her behalf she'd use McCann?

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Yvie Han on Sat Feb 25 2017, 21:50

Looks like "Pena" to me also, and would that be the reason they wrote BOTH their mobile numbers down as they were going off site?
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 26 2017, 10:24

JRP wrote:
Philip Anders wrote:Why does Kate alternate between McCann & Healy?

Maybe somebody didn't know she used the name Healy, and presumed when signing on her behalf she'd use McCann?
I think the opposite - the day she signs in as Healy is not her handwriting - a friend (the person who also signed in Ella) has signed Maddie in, not knowing that she's used McCann previously for the sake of clarity. The PJ knew something was wrong here and brought in a handwriting expert for analysis. We do not know (I think) what the findings were in detail but we are told in the case file that "Our suspicions were confirmed." 

I want to know more about the supposed boat trip - was the weather suitable to take a group of pre-schoolers who presumably couldn't swim out if the sea was choppy?
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by roz on Sat Aug 26 2017, 11:34

It was following some interesting comments made by ‘Phoebe’ on another crèche thread here, which sparked me to have a closer look at the crèche nanny statements.
From PJ Files Nanny’s crèche – Kids Club Staff Interviews - (my brackets and italics)
*STACEY P.* (Friday 4th May 2007)
In informal conversation with Stacey P., (Portz) she stated:
1. That it is she and her colleague, Shinead, who usually cares for the twins;
2. That yesterday, it was the informant who cared for the twins, her colleague was on her day off;
3. That the children were dropped off by their parents at 9.30 and that the mother picked them up at 12.30;
4. That it was the father who dropped them off at 14.30 and that it was the mother who came to fetch them at 17.30;
5. That she saw no-one strange in the surrounding area;
6. That the behaviour of the parents was always perfectly normal;
7. That she arrived in Portugal on March 18th and that she returns to the UK on November 7th 2007.


According to this, the twins did attend the Tapas Jellyfish crèche on Thursday morning. (There is no record of this Thursday morning crèche sheet on file)
 
Stacey seems to have rounded off the times to the half-hour-for example on the afternoon Jellyfish crèche sheet (which is on file), the twins were signed in by Kate at 14.45, and out at the Tapas High tea area by Kate at 17.25. 
Shinead V usually took care of the twins, but that day (Thursday) Stacey stood in for her as Shinead was ‘on her day off’.
We are told that all the nannies have Saturday off – except for two nannies who offer a ‘support service for any eventual need’-Jacqueline MW-8-5-07
Did all the nannies also have a day off during the week, or was it perhaps just the two who had worked the Saturday ‘support service’?
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Phoebe on Sat Aug 26 2017, 14:03

@roz. In their statements some of the nannies even mention how "flexible" their job was. Indeed, we know for a fact that it was SO flexible that it was Stacey P, not Sinead (the assigned nanny) who was looking after the twins on that Thursday while Charlotte P. (who should have been minding infants (with the lowest minder/child ratio) somehow found time to leave her charges and read Madeleine a story - this despite the fact that Madeleine's group had only six children for the a.m. session and four for the p.m session (three after Ella O'Brien left an hour early) and they already had their own nanny Cat.
As a student, I had experience of working during the Summer hols in a similar role and if my experience is common (and I believe it is) I firmly believe that the nannies had their own system of covering for each other, changing rosters unofficially, and giving each other time off. We did it regularly, especially of numbers were small and two groups could be combined. Indeed, management often requested it as it freed us up to take on other tasks. For this reason I have always believed that Cat. Baker was not minding Madeleine on Thurs but had instead gone off with Sinead and that this fact has been hushed up. Perhaps whoever had Madeleine's group cannot say for certain if she was present and in any case, I believe they were unwilling to draw attention to the change of nanny for Madeleine's group that day. Given that the child was "abducted" that very night any change in routine regarding her might attract suspicion and awkward questions. I believe the nannies in question rationalized that whatever allegedly happened that night could have nothing to do with a swapped roster and decided to avoid trouble by pretending it was just business as usual in Madeleine's group that day.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Verdi on Sat Aug 26 2017, 21:16

A very elaborate unsubstantiated theory but how does this fit in with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?

If the assumption has reverted to Madeleine 'disappearance' on the night of Thursday 3rd May, how would the daytime creche arrangements have any bearing?  If the McCann version is to be believed (incidentally, I don't believe), Madeleine disappeared between approx. 8:00 and 10:00 pm - when she was left alone with her siblings, whilst they went off on the hit and miss

Alternatively, if, as many attentive case observers now believe, Madeleine 'disappeared' earlier in the week (from evidenced material, most likely 29th/30th April), there is even less reason to assume that the creche staffing arrangements were concealed in order to "avoid trouble" - covering themselves for Thursday 3rd May.

This is not making any sense.

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Phoebe on Sat Aug 26 2017, 21:57

@ Verdi.  It only makes no sense if one holds the belief that Madeleine was dead as early as the Monday of that week, that the nannies were aware of this and willingly went along for days with the deception because Cat. Baker was somehow friendly with the McCanns. IMO that is not the case. Personally I put Madeleine's death later, on either Wednesday night or she was found dead early on Thursday morning. (Unless statements from the sailing instructors not yet released prove this wrong) I find it too difficult to believe that the McCanns had a dead body on their hands from Sunday/Monday and waited til Thursday night to act. The risk of premature discovery would have been too great IMO. Their story fell apart so quickly that I think planning the "abduction" on the Thursday night was a rushed, panicked response rather than one with days of careful planning behind it. I believe the shambolic creche records were filled retrospectively and that Cat. was not in creche on May 3rd. Her lying was to save herself first and foremost. I appreciate others may have a different view but this is where the evidence points for me.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Verdi on Sat Aug 26 2017, 23:44

@ Pheobe.  Fair enough but you've evaded the question, I repeat..

"If the assumption has reverted to Madeleine 'disappearance' on the night of Thursday 3rd May, how would the daytime creche arrangements have any bearing?"

Then you say, I quote ... " I appreciate others may have a different view but this is where the evidence points for me."

What evidence are you referring to?  So far all I see is unsubstantiated theorizing.  For example - what evidence do you have that leads you to think that Catriona Baker was not working on Thursday 3rd May?

What evidence do you have that leads you to think Madeleine perhaps died on the Wednesday or Thursday morning?

What evidence do you have that leads you to think the beach sailing instructors were interviewed by the PJ either formally or informally?

The child daycare staff would have been interviewed to establish Madeleine's general demeanour, whether she appeared mentally and physically healthy and how she responded to her parents.  They would not have been interviewed for any other reason at that stage of the investigation - why would they be?   I repeat, Madeleine was reported to have disappeared (been abducted) between 8:00 and 10:00 pm on Thursday 3rd May - there can be no reason for anybody, least of all the PJ, to think the child carers were in any way involved with Madeleine's alleged disappearance.

It is apparent from the childcarers witness statements that they were all asked the same questions, as one would expect under the circumstances - routine policing.  I don't doubt they were briefed by their employer beforehand for their response to accord with company policy but I can't see any reason to suppose the child carers fabricated their testimonies during the interview process.

Catriona Baker and Charlotte Pennington however, have their own stories to tell in the aftermath.

Do you readily dismiss all the compelling evidence presented on CMoMM, that there was no evidence of Madeleine being seen in or around the Ocean Club complex after lunchtime on Sunday 29th April? 

Do you readily dismiss the recent compelling evidence posted up by Get'emGoncalo and many other pointers expressed on CMoMM over the past months,  that it would have been impossible for the McCanns and their group of friends to stage such an elaborate cover-up in such a short period of time?

Have you considered the possibility that the yarn concocted for launch at approx. 10:00 pm on Thursday 3rd May 2007, the scribbled timeline etc, might just have been a ruse to appear panicky and naive?

I leave you to ponder.

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Phoebe on Sun Aug 27 2017, 02:01

@ Verdi. I cannot imagine how you could think that I am "reverting to Madeleine disappearing" or even dying on the evening of May 3rd. I thought I had made clear my belief that she was dead by May 3rd.
Why would the police be interested in the nannies accounts of Madeleine's time in creche? Well it is evident that they were from the interviews. They were interested in the demeanour of Madeleine, her parents, as witnessed by the nannies, as well as asking if them if they had noticed anything untoward around the creche or on outings. I imagine that if a nanny admitted that she was not minding Madeleine on her "last day alive" as rostered to, but had arranged a swap without informing her employers, then suspicions would have been raised. Common sense indicated the likelihood of any abduction being an inside job, as evidenced by the trouble the P.J. went to to interview O.C. staff from cleaners to maintenance men. A nanny unofficially and secretly absenting herself on the very day her charge gets abducted would have attracted interest.
What evidence do I have to make me feel Cat did not mind Madeleine's group on May 3rd? Her first statement to the police is a generalized waffle about her role as nanny. She erroneously claims Kate and Gerry accompanied Madeleine's group on creche outings. She only mentions the mini-sail eight months later in her rogatory statement, describing children being taken out to the open sea to get into their yellow boats and returning to port, when in reality the small children board these boats in ankle deep water on the beach and are then pushed about by the instructors in knee to waist deep water. She cannot recall who collected Madeleine for lunch on the 3rd. She also corrects an earlier statement (not in the files) wherein it was recorded that she stated Madeleine preferred the company of boys. I suspect it was not only the 3rd on which Cat. skived off.

You state that you "Can't see any reason to suppose why the child-carers fabricated their testimonies during the interview process" yet they must have if you believe Madeleine died on the Sunday/Monday as at least 3 of them claim to have seen and interacted with Madeleine on the 3rd.
What evidence have I that the sailing instructors Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth were interviewed by the P.J.? The files list them as having given statements but they are not among those published.
Do I discount evidence suggesting that Madeleine was not seen after Sunday? As HiDeHo pointed out she was looking for evidence that she was seen rather than that she wasn't. Until we hear from those who took her on that sail where she allegedly cried and was frightened, I reserve judgement. 
I do believe it was possible for them to plan what they did in a day or a day and a half. I see a scramble rather than a smooth operation which would have come with time and outside assistance in the immediate aftermath. They had adequate time to have hidden the body, cleaned up if necessary and sent for help. Many successful killers, even acting alone have covered up in a hurry and never been convicted. As for them grieving - given that they were capable of sleeping, enjoying meals, jogging and smiling within such a short time I think grieving took a back seat to saving their miserable skins and reputations! I don't apply normal standards of human emotion to this lot.
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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by roz on Sun Aug 27 2017, 10:26

Where was Cat B on Wednesday afternoon approx. 4.30pm after the trip to the beach with Emma Wilding and all the Mini club children?  (My brackets and italics)
Emma W 7.5.07 (snipped)- When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not,…… (3.30 – 4.30pm)
Kirsty Louise Maryan 7.5.07 (worked with children in the Junior group-6-10 year olds)
. relative to the facts of the investigation the witness clarifies that in her daily schedule mentioned she only, on one occasion, had contact with Madeleine McCann, for about 30 minutes 'who was treated as Maddie' in that she had to substitute for her colleague, who, at that time, was responsible for the group whose name is Emma, as she had to go to the Tapas to take care of the refreshments of Madeleine's group. For this, the deponent had the charge of accompanying that group towards the beach until the MiniClub where they stayed for a few minutes, and from where they left for the restaurant, mentioned above, in order to have dinner. She clarifies that when Madeleine ate her food, her parents were close and accompanied her; 
I believe that Kirsty is referring to the beach trip on Wednesday 2nd that Emma refers to. Emma mentions no other joint venture to the beach with Cat’s group - Cat does not mention it at all.
From Kirsty’s statement I take it that Emma W was on the beach alone with the children of both Mini club groups at the end of their beach activities, but that Emma had to leave to take care of the Tapas High tea food for Cat B’s group -4 children according to the crèche sheets, and Kirsty was asked to walk with the children from the beach to the Mini club.
(Possibly Emma was in a hurry to the Tapas as this had to be done before a certain time each day)
Kirsty and the children, after a brief stop at the Mini club, then proceeded to the Tapas area for High tea at approx 5pm.
 

Where was Cat? Did Cat stay down at the beach area? What was so important that Cat could not do her own duties?  Was Cat not with her group at the Tapas High tea area?
ETA -If Emma W (Mini club staff) was not sure that Madeleine was in the group that day or not, then I do not believe that during that 30 minutes or so, Kirsty (Junior club staff) could positively identify Madeleine out of the two groups of children.
I note also that Emma does not specifically mention Cat being there -just that the two groups went to the beach.
We are just left to presume that Cat was there.
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