Documented Evidence

Silentscope @ [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] above ^^^

For the benefit of members and guest readers alike, would you please make your point clear.  Otherwise you only disrupt forum continuity, thus spoiling chances of constructive discourse.

We've been this way before, a number of times.  It's the problem when you post on behalf of another, you basically don't know what you're talking about so your messages are unclear to the reader, as they are to your good self.

In this particular instance, you have posted an extract from the PJ files without obvious reason, with a little message at the end (I think?) which doesn't appear to be relevant to anything, least of all the file extract you have posted.

Thank you!

It seems strange to me that the Witness only made his Statement on the exact same day 24.09.07. that the Dutch Holidaymakers turned up on.

The Property is remote, set well back from the road, and it was reported that they were in a different Vehicle than the previously hired Renault Scenic. How did the Witness see anything? Especially if it was dark!

I doubt if the PJ checked if the Owners of the Property were known to the McCanns. They were probably not aware that the McCanns had lived in Amsterdam  in the past, and that there could be a possibility of a link.

Because no records were normally kept, no one would know who the McCanns were allegedly visiting on the Weekends in July.

I find the Story too convenient and unbelievable.

So none the wiser .... no surprise there!

Nor does it come as any surprise that it's taken you nine hours to indirectly reply, despite your being online more than once during that period Silentscope.

Consulting the oracle eh ?

Silentscope wrote:I doubt if the PJ checked if the Owners of the Property were known to the McCanns. They were probably not aware that the McCanns had lived in Amsterdam  in the past, and that there could be a possibility of a link.

Silentscope wrote:The contract was signed through an intermediary from Winkworth who said that the McCanns never had any relationship with the residence in question because it was always let to friends or family members of the Dutch owners.

You posted the extract from the PJ files yourself Silentscope.

For crying out loud !

So the friends and family of the Dutch owners were not known to the McCanns then?

Why would they allegedly pay visits to a property unless there was someone there that they knew?

Why would they allegedly pay visits to a property unless there was someone there that they knew?

The clue is in the word you use .... 'allegedly'.

There were any number of 'alleged' sightings of Madeleine McCann and the parents Gerry/Kate McCann in the very early days - and latterly.

Routine policing, the PJ would have officially/unofficially interviewed all witnesses, credible or not, and eliminated if of no use to the investigation. If anything was of interest to the investigation it would be documented.

Even if the McCanns did visit the property for some reason - so what. If there be any evidence of anything suspicious from a policing point of view then bring it on. Otherwise ....

06 Processos Vol VI Pages 1652-1653

Witness Statement
Carlos Manuel Figueiredo Pereira

Date: 2007/05/31

Occupation: Civil Engineer

He comes to the process as a witness, he works for the municipal chamber of Lagos since 1988 as a civil engineer.

With specific reference to the Urban and Environmental re-qualification works carried out in the town of Luz, namely in Rua Direita, the witness clarifies the following:

During 2006 a public tender was issued with the aim of adjudicating the firm offering the best conditions and guarantees.

This tender was won by the company Canana & Filhos Ltda and the date for starting work was established as April of the current year (2007).

During the first days/weeks of April in Rua Direita together with Largo da Republica, the different necessary infrastructures were created such as : networks for domestic drains, water supply, public lighting and telephones. These actions took place over the course of about 30 days, following others that had been implemented along Rua Helena Nascimiento Baptista.

With regard to the month of May, and after the first days of the month, work was begun at Rua Direita, aiming at the installation of water pipes, telephones and public lighting. The technical space excavated which guaranteed the application of three types of infrastructure previously mentioned, had the following average dimensions : 1,20 metres deep by 0,90 metres long, it being certain during the excavation work that they were almost immediately covered with sand and earth.


When asked how the daily checking was done, with regard to security measures and the quality of the work carried out, the witness said there was nothing abnormal to point out, it was a work that had been carried out calmly and without any incidents.

No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.

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I've always had my suspicions about that image, something about it doesn't ring true..

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The images still appear on mccannpjfiles page, Kate McCann's interrogation of 7th September 2007 but clearly they've been put there by whoever compiled the page.

It makes you wonder just how many misleading interpretations of the PJ files have circulated as a result of the translations and file presentation.

What, on the 'official' page of documented photographs - are you sure?

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I don't recall ever seeing the 'blue bag' image there. I know the subject has been discussed at length in the past but most likely scattered across the forum on different threads.

I'll have a rummage about later and see if I can coordinate past commentary - it might be worth another look!

Well, as I say the image does feature on the mccannpjfiles forum but not on the page of officially documented forensic photographs.

I'm very interested to know the provenance of the image, it doesn't look genuine to me even though it shows the PJ watermark. I guess it's easy to 'adjust' an image to include such.

The focal point of interest is however the fact that I don't believe the image was ever included in the official PJ documentation. I could of course be wrong.

It's worth looking into. If I'm right, it casts doubt on the range of information on the mccannpjfiles. One trifling anomaly OK but what else could be considered doubtful?

There is so much wrong with this case, it's hard to know who and what to trust.

Shouldn't these blue bag posts be moved to the debate section?

Yes I have that in mind. Firstly I wanted to see which way it was heading, before making a decision.

Consider it in hand

I've had a good old rummage about the forum and outside, unfortunately can't find anything constructive that takes this forward.

The basis of past discussion of this enigmatic image of what resembles a bag of some sorts in the wardrobe in the bedroom occupied by Gerry and Kate McCann, it's the same image across the board but never shown as part of the documented forensic PJ photographic evidence of the crime scene.

I was hoping to merge past threads on the subject here on CMOMM but they are very old and defunct and for the most part just general chit chat.

So for that reason, I will move the posts from the member's lounge to another thread tomorrow, probably the 'Documented Evidence' thread as that seems the most appropriate at this stage.

Forewarned is forearmed.

If you find anything crusader, let us know!

Many years ago there was a website set-up to debunk a lot of the rumour circulating the world wide web about the case of missing Madeleine McCann.

I can't recall who was behind the site, if I ever knew, but that is beside the point.

The important thing is, the debunking was spot on! Either downright (probably deliberate) lie; misinterpretation; tenuous interpretation; video editing and text editing. I did my own 'fact checking' and although my findings didn't go down too well with those garden fence gossips who are only interested in scandal. nonetheless the forum myths were debunked!

Would you believe it still goes on to this very day. No matter how many times you provide evidence of a falsity, people just ignore and carry on propagating nonsense regardless.

5 - 14 APENSOS V, Volume XIV Pages 29 to 50 (pdf) or 2971 TO 2992
Date: 2008/05/06

Service Information

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Paolo Rebelo

From: Ricardo Paiva

Subject: Roman Tunnels in Praia da Luz, for annexing to the case files.

Within the scope of the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the British police recently sent this police force the emails that are annexed, containing information about the possible existence of ancient underground tunnels of Roman origin in Praia da Luz, which presumably cross the entire village and which could be the subject of investigation by this police force.

Within this context and the aim of checking the accuracy of these emails on this date Engineer Martins from the Department of Urbanism and Infrastructure from the Lagos Municipal Chamber was contacted, he immediately supplied us with a CD with the cartography of the sewerage network of Praia da Luz at underground level, which shows that there are only tunnels for rainwater evacuation. These maps were printed and are annexed to this service report.

For your information

Signed

Inspector Ricardo Paiva

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Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
201/07.OGALGS
O INSPECTOR
M.P.
ATTACHED
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
========================================
[3 page attachment] Pages 887-890
Original written in English.
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As recalled by:

Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B

Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge.

Prior to 2030, a11 couples and children were in their apartments preparing for bedtime.
-5A (Madeleine, Amelie and Sean McCann).
-5B (G**** Oldfield),
-5D (E*** and E***O'Brien) and
-5H (L*** and S******* Payne)

2030: Standard booking for meal at Tapas restaurant for group - same all week (Sun-Thur)
2035: Gerry McCann (GM) and Kate McCann (KC) arrive at table at Tapas Restaurant.
2040: Jane Tanner (JT) arrives, followed shortly by Matthew Oldfield (MO) and Rachael Mampilly Oldfield (RMO).
2045: Russell O'Brien (RJO) arrives at table.
2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats' windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
The door is slightly ajar (about 45 degrees) which is unusual. All the 3 children were present and asleep. GM believes the shutter was down. The room in which the children are asleep is completely dark. On leaving the room, GM shuts the door to approximately 5 degrees. He then goes to the toilet to urinate.
2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.
As JT continued up the hill towards the junction with Rua A. da Silva, she sees a man carrying a child in his arms crossing left to right from the apartment side continuing east along Rua A. da Silva in the direction of the "Millennium Restaurant." He was on the same side of the road as JT 5-10 metres ahead of her.

Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tal1 approximately with a slim build.
- Good head of dark glossy hair, with possible flick of hair to the right. The hair was longer at the back (i.e not clippered or shaven).
- The central and the left side of the face were not seen.
- Full length trousers, casual, the material hanging without creases. The colour was possibly a browny mustard. They were not jeans.
- Long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper. It had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour.
- Shoes may have been a semi-formal brogue.
- Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained.
- He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects.
- He was only carrying a child, with the head against the left upper chest away from JT and the feet to the right - i.e. cradling the child like a baby.
- He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere.
- He was not someone JT recognised from the week.
- He was not dressed typically for a "tourist," or at least his clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and may well have been purchased in Portugal.

Description of Child:

- The child appeared to be a Caucasian girl about the ages of 3-4.
- She was seen to lie motionless/limp in the man's arms consistent with her sleeping or possibly drugged.
- She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were lightly coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not well seen though there was thought to be
another colour involved possibly pink.
- She was not wearing shoes.

JT checked only 5D entering via the deadlocked door on the car park side of the apartment. Both children inside were asleep. She did not check 5A or 5B.

2120: JT then returns to the restaurant, by which time GM had also returned. The entire party then begins eating their starters which have arrived.
2125: After starters, MO and RJO go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all flats. They go first to 5D where RJO's daughter Evie is heard crying. RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, and then returns to 5D.
2130: RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance. The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.
MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot. He does not enter the bedroom but can see through a now quite open door (greater than 45 degrees) into the room.
He sees the two twins in their cot, but does not check Madeleine formally as no sounds and twins asleep. He recalls the room did seem lighter than expected, perhaps suggesting the shutter had been raised or the curtains opened?
2135: MO returns to restaurant table, by which time main courses are arriving or being eaten. MO tells JT that Evie unwell.
2140: JT returns to 5D to take over care of Evie from RJO.
2145: RJO returns to table to eat main course leaving JT in 5D.
2155: RMO asked time at table. RJO's main course arrives.
2200: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed. She enters through the closed patio entrance, with the curtains closed. She crosses the living area, and there is no noise from the children's bedroom. She is about to leave, when she notices the bedroom door was
open (approximately 60 degrees).
She starts to close it and it slams. Considering the patio doors had caused a draft, she checks these doors but they are closed. KM returns to the bedroom and opens the door to check the children were not disturbed by the noise.
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was
completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes.
On failing to find Madeleine, she runs to the entrance of the restaurant, shouting from the path leading to the restaurant area raising the alarm that Madeleine was missing.

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05-06-Apensos V, Vol 6, Page 1357

Table of Contents : APENSOS V, Volume 6, Supposed Sightings and Locations (FILE 06)....(PDF Page 166 )....Page 1357?"Copy of Pages 1349 and 1353"

Page 1357 (Page 1 of 1 )

SOCA
SERIOUS ORGANISED CRIME AGENCY

INTERPOL - United Kingdom National Central Bureau (U.K.N.C.B.)

Interpol London
P.O. Box 8000
London. SE11 5EN
Tel : +44(0)207 238 8115
Fax : +44(0)207 238 8112
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INTERNATIONAL ENQUIRY FORM
This form must be submitted by your International Liaison Officer
ENQUIRER'S DETAILS
Name & Rank : Dc John Hughes
Agency : LEICESTERSHIRE POLICE
Contact Details : (Tel & Email) : 0116 2312169 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Interpol Ref : (Where applicable) : 4H-2395710-07 - ACTION NR : A1356
Priority : Urgent/Normal : Urgent
Reason for Urgency : Risk to life-Missing person.
Operation Name : (If Applicable) : OPERATION TASK
Crime or Enquiry Type : Missing person - Madeleine McCann
Destination Countries : Spain and Germany
Form C Completed : Form C Attached :
SUBJECTS - Persons / Vehicles / Companies etc. :

A caller has reported a possible sighting of Madeleine McCann, 11am, 28th May 2007. Location given as a restaurant called 'TUNNELS', in an old castle at an area called Cap Y Corp, Alcossebra, Spain.
She was seen to leave with a man in a Volkswagen van, registered number 'xxxxxxx'.

REQUEST.

We request the Spanish Police check the location for any CCTV or witnesses.
We request the German vehicle keeper details.
Can the vehicle be circulated for a stop and search to be carried out if seen (SIRENE circulation please.)

DOCUMENTS ATTACHED / TO FOLLOW.

CRIMINALITY & ROLE OF THE ABOVE SUBJECTS.
This section MUST be graded as per the National 5x5x5 Intelligence system. The request will be rejected otherwise.

REPORT
------------

Table of Contents : APENSOS V, Volume 6, Supposed Sightings and Locations (FILE 06)....(PDF Page 166 )....Page 1358?"Copy of Email from DC Hughes, (as per Pages 1350 and 1354)"


Page 1358 (Page 1 of 1 )

Hughes John (DC)
______________
From : Hughes John (DC)
Sent : 4th June 2007 10.29
To : 'london@soca.x.gsi.gov.uk '
Subject : Leics enquiry form A1356
Attachments : Leics enquiry form A1356.doc

Can we ask for Spanish local enquiries and German vehicle keeper details for this enquiry please.
Thanks,

Dc John Hughes
------------

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This VW Van BMS 1049 was actually photographed by the reporting witness.
It would be nice to see the pictures.


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Table of Contents : APENSOS V, Volume 6, Supposed Sightings and Locations (FILE 06)....(PDF Pages 156-157 )....Pages 1347 to 1348?"Statement re sighting in Alcocebre, Spain" 

Page 1347 (Page 1 of 2 )

Priority 2

Incident Message : M1545 : Security Level : 4
Assessor/Receiver's Summary :
Date : 1st June 2007 : Time : 1300 : Priority : M
Type : Phone In
Code : MADE : Description : Madeleine Beth McCANN to include possible sightings


(Note : Here, is a handwritten entry of 10 lines, in the Portuguese Language, dated 4th June 2007, which refers to a reported sighting in ALCOCEBRE, Spain, on 28th May 2007. This entry has obscured most of this report)

The report then continues thus :

....................................................................go on in a volkswagen
van. I took a couple of photographs and the registration of the vehicle which is 'xxxxxxx' German registration.

How long was the child under observation ?

About 15 minutes.

At what distance and in what lighting ?

Normal daylight sunshine.

Was the observation impeded ?

Girl walked straight past me and observation was unobstructed.

(Note : On the righthand margin are 4 entries, A 1353, A1356, A1561 and A1365, which are Case Action Allocation reference numbers)


Page 1348 (Page 2 of 2 )

Has the witness seen the adult or child before and in what circumstances ?

No.

What is the time gap between the sighting and the contact with us ?

4 days.

Are you aware of any CCTV cameras in the area of the sighting or do you have any relevant photographic evidence in relation to it ?

Possibly, not sure.

Any other information the witness has that makes them now believe the child was or was not Madeleine ?

None.

Does the call-taker have any comments in relation to the person passing the information ?

No.


Person receiving/sending : Receiving:
Title/Rank/Id Number : DC 802
Forename(s) : Tony
Surname : WALDREN

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05-CARTAS ROGATORIAS (FILE 5) pages 1-2

1 to 2-Witness statement of Clarence Eden Mitchell 2008.04.28

Leicestershire Police Force
Witness Statement

Statement by Clarence Eden Mitchell

This statement consists of two pages, signed by me, is truthful and in accordance with my understanding.

Date 28th April 2008

I am the person referred to above, resident at the address previously provided to the police. Today, officers from the Leicestershire police force questioned me about some of the aspects related to the Madeleine McCann inquiry. I was informed that these questions were raised and officially requested by the Portuguese authorities. I am aware that my statement will be subject to the Portuguese Penal Code, as well as to Church law.
These are the replies that I can make to the following questions. In relation to how I met Gerry and Kate McCann and what my relationship with them is:

I met Gerry at the end of May 2007 when he returned to the UK after his daughter's disappearance. It was a circumstantial meeting at Leicestershire Police station. At the time I was working as part of the Consular Assistance Group, representing the foreigners department.

I as asked to return to Portugal with Mr McCann, where I met his wife. Later I became the McCann family's representative and I developed a good personal and professional relationship with them.

As regards my travel to Portugal; I travelled on the 22nd May 2007 and remained in Portugal until the middle of June. Since then, there was no need to return.

As regards my accommodation in Portugal, I stayed in a Mark Warner apartment in the Ocean Club, near to the apartment occupied by the McCann family. I did not notice anything strange in the apartment.

With regard to the moments that I spent with Kate and Gerry; I was with them daily for various hours, whilst I was in Portugal.
After my return to the UK I continued to be in daily contact with them and we would meet two or three times a week.

With regard to Kate and Gerry's behaviour; Their behaviour has been entirely of constant anguish, typical of parents who have lost their daughter in tragic circumstances. Everything that they said or did leads me to believe that they are completely innocent of involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine.

With regard to the various questions about the Renault Scenic: I often saw the car but I do not remember whether I was only inside the Renault Scenic once. I travelled as a front seat passenger on the night that we went to the charity concert in Lagos. Gerald McCann was the driver. The vehicle was packed with other family members.
I did not notice anything strange about the vehicle nor any unpleasant or intense smell.

I do not think that Kate or Gerry could have hidden Madeleine or transported her body anywhere in the car. In my opinion this is a ridiculous suggestion, given that they as well as the car were the object of intense observation by the media, day and night, during the whole time that I was with them. The car was always parked in front of a multitude from television channels and photographers. The car was always followed by photographers during the whole time.

I cannot think of any more information or explanations that could be relevant or that could help the investigation in any way.

This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my understanding.

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I'm sorry if my question has been covered elsewhere else on this site, but the site is huge and Byzantine and I can't find any answer to it.

Does anyone know if the dogs could pick up cadaver scent if there had never been a body in the car? For example, if the car had been used to dispose of clothing or a blanket or sheet that had been wrapped around Madeleine's dead body, could there be enough transference of the odour for the cadaver dog to signal? Or is it necessary for Madeleine herself to be in the vehicle?

lisbon wrote:I'm sorry if my question has been covered elsewhere else on this site, but the site is huge and Byzantine and I can't find any answer to it.

Does anyone know if the dogs could pick up cadaver scent if there had never been a body in the car? For example, if the car had been used to dispose of clothing or a blanket or sheet that had been wrapped around Madeleine's dead body, could there be enough transference of the odour for the cadaver dog to signal? Or is it necessary for Madeleine herself to be in the vehicle?

As a self confessed 'lurker' and websleuths devotee, I'm astonished to hear you have overlooked most certainly one of the finer points of this case .... Eddie and Keela's forensic evidence!

It's called transference or transfer evidence - elementary my dear Watson!

Or you could phone a friend    the forum appears to attracting quite a few websleutharian migrants.

I take that as a backhanded compliment, albeit nefarious by intent  !