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Post by Hobs on 15.09.19 21:51

@Verdi wrote:I often say something to the effect ... 'I tell lies' or 'I'm lying' when I've made a mistake, it's a figure os speech.  As I frequently use the word 'sorry' - too often I feel!

It doesn't signify.

I don't.
I will say my mistake.

It is always worth noting in a statement when someone says they are lying or include the words sorry, it is significant especially in relation to a crime.

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Post by Verdi on 20.09.19 1:21

One very interesting specimen doing the rounds of documented evidence is the McCanns friend Russell O'Brien. His rogatory interview that took place in April 2008, is a stand alone case study - short tempered to say the least.

By way of example..

Reply “So ‘I told him to go back and tell Jane that Evie was unwell’, erm, I’d obviously cleaned her up and changed her. Erm, I think maybe what I would do is I’d say ‘Matt came into my apartment and asked if I needed any help, I said ‘No, go back and tell Jane that Evie was unwell’’ and then, because I don’t think that I would have had time then, it was then I started, ‘I got her out, I gave her a quick wash in the bath, changed her, got the sheet off the cot’, erm, and at least, whether I started the washing machine then, but at least ‘I put them in the washing machine and then sat down with Evie’. But I want it in there that there was a bloody washing machine in the apartment”.

1578 “’Gave Evie a quick bath’'”
Reply “Yeah”.

1578 “’Changed her’'”
Reply “’Changed her’ and, erm, and MARK WARNER do stretch to cleaning facilities on their holidays, so”.

1578 “’And placed bed linen’'”
Reply “Excuse to sound so cynical, but. ‘And placed’, well I don’t think, I don’t think I necessarily put the, I got the dirty linen and her clothes off and at least I think, you know, there was a few bits of sick and I probably gave them a rinse off in the bath and then just shoved them in the washing machine, whether I started it then or did it later I’ve no idea. But, you know, since we’ve been”.

1578 “’And placed clothing’”.
Reply “Suspicion has been put on us because, erm, we didn’t request any further sheets. I think I’d rather have it in there that, erm”.

1578 “’Into the washing machine’”.
Reply “That even as a man I can use a washing machine, staggering though that may sound. Anyway, enough of that. I think, erm, say ‘Jane came back, we were in the flat together for a number of minutes’, it might be worth adding, so ‘Jane came back having eaten her meal at approximately twenty-one forty’ or something like that”.
....................

Further on Russell O'Brien has this observation to make on the performance by his friend Gerry McCann, on the night of 3rd/4th May 2007..

I could certainly hear him, I mean, even earlier than this, you could hear wails of despair, erm, you know, almost sort of inhuman wails of despair from Kate inside the flat on, erm, erm, on a number, a number of occasions when we went back and, erm, but this was the first time I’d actually really seen or heard Gerry, he was on the phone to, erm, a member of his family, erm, curled up really on the floor just outside the sliding patio door just sobbing uncontrollably and in between sobs just saying ‘They’ve’, you know, ‘Someone’s taken her’ or ‘Somebody’s bloody got her’, you know, ‘She’s gone’ and absolutely erm, you know, you know, for such a strong man to see him on the floor broken he was, he was incapable of even standing up, he was just lying on the floor and just repeating himself, there was so little he could, you know, there was just nothing else in there.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Well, I wasn't there so I can't comment with any conviction but considering Gerry McCann's imposing presence, all the conflicting witness statements and the documented sequence of events on the night of 3rd/4th May 2007, I find it difficult to believe that he was prostrated by anguish - unless he was play acting. Just like the reported incident of Gerry McCann falling to his knees like a praying Arab when he left the Ocean Club reception and the later incident of he and his missus 'praying like Arabs' back at apartment 5a.


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Post by ROSA on 20.09.19 7:00

@Hobs wrote:
@Verdi wrote:I often say something to the effect ... 'I tell lies' or 'I'm lying' when I've made a mistake, it's a figure os speech.  As I frequently use the word 'sorry' - too often I feel!

It doesn't signify.

I don't.
I will say my mistake.

It is always worth noting in a statement when someone says they are lying or include the words sorry, it is significant especially in relation to a crime.
I always say my bad when I'm wrong it helps to clear things up I have never heard the McCann's say they are sorry in relation to Maddie's disappearance if they did say sorry then I must of missed that.

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Post by Verdi on 20.09.19 16:05

A very well respected astute forum member this morning PM'd me with a thought that never before dawned on me.  I believe it to be very worthy of further scrutiny.

I'm in no doubt Russell O'Brien has been the subject of extensive discussion over the years but if we can just leave that behind and take a fresh look at all the evidence that suggests the man was very much involved in the aftermath of Madeleine McCann's disappearance.  On this particular occasion I focus on the sick daughter and associated matters.

Trying to make reasonable sense of the rogatory interviews requires more patience and mental aptitude than I can muster but I will try again later today to determine the precise day O'Brien's daughter was sick - that is the focal point of this particular exercise.

At the moment, it would appear O'Brien himself can't be sure so this might prove to be a pointless exercise.  Looking at his witness statements taken by the PJ on 4th and 11th May 2007 and his rogatory interview he places the incident on both Tuesday 1st May 2007 and Thursday 3rd May 2007 - either way it raises questions as to why he thought it necessary to go into so much detail about a seemingly irrelevant incident, including the emphasis placed on the washing machine.

Jane Tanner thinks the incident happened on the Monday.

During the rogatory interview, as posted above, he is quite angry about media reports that centered around the rumour that he didn't request replacement bedding from the Ocean Club, nor did he send the soiled linen to the laundry service.  So .... why did Russell O'Brien take this issue to another level, drawing attention to his daughter's sickness and the washing of her clothes and the bed linen.

This has particularly piqued my attention because I've always considered Tuesday 1st May 2007 to be the pivotal mark of time when everything changed - forever

What exactly was Russell O'Brien doing back at his apartment on this specific occasion.  What was Jane Tanner doing, when she wasn't flip flopping the streets of Luz with plates of food, on this specific occasion.

I'm going out - this might take some time ....

I thank the forum member for bringing this to attention.

hat

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Post by crusader on 21.09.19 21:13

They are deliberately being vague. Jane Tanner says in her rogatory statement 'There was one night when Russell didn't come to dinner. I think it was Wednesday but it could have been Tuesday because Evie was sick. Then later in the statement 'so id say it would be Tuesday which is why i think it was the quiz night because Russell wasn't there when it was the quiz night.' In Najoua Chekaya aerobic instructor/quiz master said in her statement - 09/05/2007 'last Tuesday at the end of the quiz she was invited to the table of 9 guests who asked her to join them for a drink. During this time, one of the chairs was always empty.' The evidence would suggest the Tuesday.
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Post by Verdi on 21.09.19 22:24

@crusader wrote: The evidence would suggest the Tuesday.

I'm inclined to agree but I would really like to find something, however small, to confirm - or at least point positively in that direction.

I haven't given up on trying to fathom the witness statements, only put it on the back burner pending constitutional forbearance - certainly not just before or just after dinner.

NB: Pleased to see you've reconsidered posting thumbup

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Post by Jonal on 23.09.19 13:40

@Verdi wrote:Russell O'Brien has been the subject of extensive discussion over the years [...] the man was very much involved in the aftermath of Madeleine McCann's disappearance.  On this particular occasion I focus on the sick daughter and associated matters.

In the sticker book, in O'Brien's handwriting "Ella" is pencilled in at 9:20/5 then scribbled out, and again at 9:30. The second timeline has "poorly daughter" and this becomes settled in the PJ interviews as E**e. He would know as father and nurse what should properly be recorded, and this change suggests one version preferred over another. The difference may be that the original choice child could talk.

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Post by Verdi on 23.09.19 15:44

Thank you Jonal - you will be rewarded.

Documented Evidence - Page 7 Timeli10
Documented Evidence - Page 7 Timeli11


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Post by Doug D on 23.09.19 22:05

These copies are a bit clearer, with transcriptions underneath.
Documented Evidence - Page 7 Timeline040507a

Timeline 1 (as per sticker book above)
 
8:45. pm
 
Matt returns 9.00-9.05 - listened at all 3
                               - all shutters down
 
Jerry 9.10-9.15 in the room + all well
                      ? did he check
 
9.20/5 - Ella Jane checked 5D sees stranger & child
 
9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check all 3
 
9.35 - Matt check see twins
 
9.50 - Russ returns
 
9.55 - Kate realised Madeleine
 
10pm - Alarm raised

Documented Evidence - Page 7 Timeline040507
Timeline 2 (as per sticker book above)
 
8.45pm. all assembled at poolside for food
 
9.00pm. Matt Oldfield listens at all 3 windows 5A, B, D ALL shutters down
 
9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room A ? Door open to bedroom
 
9:20pm Jane Tanner checks 5D - [sees stranger walking carrying a child]
 
9.30 Russell O'Brien in 5D. Poorly daughter
  l
9.55pm
 
10:00pm. Alarm raised after Kate
 
Gerald




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Post by Doug D on 23.09.19 22:44

For the purpose of Jonal’s suggestion, which would make a lot of sense, Ella was 3 and Evie 1.
 
If one of the others had drawn up the two timelines you could perhaps understand them getting confused between the two girls, but the father not remembering which daughter had been ill and throwing up in their cot a few hours earlier!!!!!?????!!!

Also no mention of Jane relieving him after 15 minutes so he could finish his dinner.
 
Ella was signed in to Lobsters at 9.50 that morning.
 
Grace & Evie were in the same group (presumably ‘Toddler 1’) and although in the same room as Sean, Amelie and Lily, these last three were in ‘Toddler 2’ according to the crèche records. 
 
‘Toddler 1’ records are not in the files.
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Post by Verdi on 01.10.19 16:01

Russell O'Brian rogatory interview - 10th April 2008

Reply “Erm, it’s worth, it says, ‘I recall that there was a Trivia Quiz on either Tuesday or Wednesday evening, it was conducted by aerobics’, this is wrong. Erm, this was a way, if you had other information, of working out which day I wasn’t there. Erm, there was, the day that I didn’t, so either on the Monday or Tuesday, the day that I wasn’t there, erm, that, that I think it was that, you know, there was an aerobics instructor who, this is second-hand information, who was drumming up some support for, you know, some group called Pool Aerobics or something, from the people who were there. Erm, and the only reason I mentioned that was, if you had that information in other people’s statements about what night the quiz took place on, that was the night I wasn’t there”.

1578 “Right. ‘I recall there was a Trivia Quiz on either the Tuesday or Wednesday evening’”.

Reply “So that might be better, jumping back up to where I have said ‘I know on one of the evenings, either the Monday or Tuesday, I stayed in the flat with Evie, she wasn’t well and Jane brought her over’, so if at the end of that statement, that paragraph, it then says ‘this occurred on the night where there was a Trivia Quiz, possibly conducted by the aerobics instructor’, I mean, that would, that would, erm. And then when, when the statements are, you know, are cross-referenced, then I think it would be probably fairly apparent to know which night that was”.

1578 “Then we can delete those two lines'”

Reply “And then the rest of it can go, yeah, that doesn’t, I mean, I might as well hop, hop back up to the, the other bit. But I wasn’t there, I don’t recall the Trivia Quiz, that was the night I wasn’t there, it is only speaking to other people, erm, that I know that that was, that that was the night I missed. On Wednesday, it might be worth saying that ‘Rachael was ill and stayed in the flat’”.

1578 “Right. So ‘On Wednesday Rachael was ill and stayed in the flat’'”

https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm



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Post by Verdi on 01.10.19 16:26

Russell O'Brien is the 'witness' whose rogatory interview was repeated on 10th April 2008 because the equipment failed to record the interview held on 8th April 2008. From thereon it starts to get wildly confusing, the documented interview proceeds thus..

Russell O'Brien

On the 8th April 2008 officers from Leicestershire Constabulary interviewed me in order to clarify certain points and in order for me to provide further information where possible.

The interviews were visually recorded, however I understand that due to technical difficulties the equipment failed to record.

I have been informed that these questions arise from an official request from the Portuguese authorities. I am aware that my statement will be subject to the Portuguese Criminal Code in addition to English Law.

I have been informed that this statement has been made from the monitoring notes which were taken at the time of the interviews being conducted.

I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory from the statement made by Jane TANNER (my wife) and I have been allowed to see these documents, this was done in the presence of DC 1578 GIERC.

I wish to add that Jane’s statement covered our routine from the 28th April 2007-2nd May 2007 quite comprehensively and my original Portuguese statement referred to Jane’s statement, this was therefore a good point of reference for me.

https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm


So effectively, it would appear the second rogatory interview was arranged to enable Russell O'Brien an opportunity to 'correct', from monitoring notes from the interview held only two days earlier. The rogatory process interviews, requested by the McCanns themselves, were used by the PJ to pose their own questions in order to clarify the many discrepancies and contradictions highlighted during their investigation.

In short, his second rogatory interview was designed to further clarify the first interview which was the purpose of the rogatory interviews in the first place, from the perspective of the PJ. Why was Russell O'Brien afforded such a privilege - it seems to me to be a very strange way of conducting an investigation into a very serious crime.

Whatever, if you compare Russell O'Brien's initial witness statements taken early May 2007, the recorded rogatory interview further confounds his version of events a millionfold. The same applies to the rest of the group.

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Post by crusader on 01.10.19 18:53

What I don't understand is, if O`brien gave his statement first, at 9-45, why was he allowed to say he completely corroborates the statements by his partner Jane Tanner & Rachael Mampilly. They didn't give their statements until 11-30 & 19-20.
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Post by crusader on 02.10.19 14:55

Got the times of the statements  wrong. R. Obrien gave his statement last. Got confused with the 24 hour clock. So, Jane Tanner gave her statement first at 11-30am Rachael Mampilly gave hers at 7 30pm then Russel O`Brien at 9-45pm. Why did the PJ let him get away with collusion by saying he completely corroborates the statements by his partner Jane Tanner and Rachael Mampilly.
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Post by G-Unit on 03.10.19 13:47

My favourite snippet from Russell's rogatory is when he's describing what happened after the alarm was raised and they all ran to 5A;

Reply    “Yeah, ‘Some remained at the porch entry’, ‘at the’, erm, I keep saying porch, ‘at the foot of the stairs’, is probably the best one. 


The porch, of course is where the front door is situated. I wonder why he kept saying it?
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Post by crusader on 03.10.19 13:53

The front door is around by the car park, the porch he's referring to is the sliding patio doors at the top of the steps.
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Post by G-Unit on 03.10.19 14:28

That's not a porch, it's a balcony.
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Post by crusader on 03.10.19 14:37

I see what you mean, the little canopy over the front door. From what I've gathered, they all went to the patio doors, up the steps at the side of the building.
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Post by G-Unit on 03.10.19 14:56

That's what they said, but there's no difinitive evidence that the patio doors were unlocked in my opinion.
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Post by crusader on 03.10.19 15:05

That is true enough, can we believe any one of the tapas nine statements. The only thing we can be sure of is. they arrived in Praia da Luz on 28th April 2007.
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Post by Verdi on 03.10.19 15:43

I keep going back to Russell O'Brien's rogatory interview in order to make some sense out of the nonsensical. It lasts only a few minutes before I have to give up until the next time.

Here's an example..

“Yeah, and it’s slightly out of order here now. The next paragraph, erm, yeah, the wording, it’s a bit, it’s a bit sort of, I mean, there’s, there’s such a kind of, you know, uncomfortable coincidences next, in this next, but this is out of order, this is before we have gone and collected Evie. So after I’ve gone out to play tennis, erm, the next couple of paragraphs occur and then ‘We probably saw Madeleine at lunchtime and one of us probably collected Ella’, so it’s slightly out of, it’s slightly out of synch this”.


confused big grin

If this was aimed to confuse, he certainly achieved his objective with splendiferous éclat.

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Post by crusader on 03.10.19 15:53

Can you imagine if he was your consultant? I wonder if he had to have a translator to interpret his notes. Doctor to patient, yes I have your results here, but can you come back next week as need to read them in short bursts armed with bickies and coffee. Then I need to have a lie down in  dark room until my head stops spinning.
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Post by Verdi on 03.10.19 16:18

Reverting to the curious case of Russell O'Brien and the missing rogatory interview recordng, this is snipped from Jane Tanner's (his significant other) rogatory interview..

Jane Tanner's rogatory

4078 “And you’ve been given a letter from us outlining the objectives of this interview but if at any time you want to stop and ask a question that’s fine.”
Reply “Okay.”

4078 “It’s just a chat really.”
Reply “Yeah.”

4078 “Obviously I’m going to try and licit as much information out of you as we can.”
Reply “Yeah.”

4078 “And likewise I know you’re going to try and remember as much as you can.”
Reply “Yeah.”

4078 “We’ve already discussed the fact that you wanted to refresh your memory, well you might want to refresh your memory.”
Reply “Mm.”

4078 “By looking at the statement that you gave previously.”
Reply “Yeah.”

4078 “That’s fine but we’ve agreed before the interview that you’re going to do as much as you can prior to doing that.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”

4078 “And then when you get to the stage that you feel you want to do that just say so.”
Reply “Yeah, that’s fine yeah.”

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

What was/is it that makes this couple of apparent miscreants stand out over and above the rest of the group? Could it be Jane Tanner's sighting that makes them so special?

I seriously consider David Payne to be a key player, in addition to the McCanns, in this eternal charade. From the outside looking in, it would appear that the O'Brien/Tanner alliance also played a significant part.

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Post by G-Unit on 03.10.19 19:50

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times.  We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same.  I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked.
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm


Reply 'No, no, but on that Sunday night, I dont, Matt didnt come to dinner on the Sunday with being sick the night before, so he didnt, he just stayed in the apartment, so I didnt actually have to go back and check at all on the Sunday'.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm


That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Though his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner. Except for the situation described above, that occurred during lunch, he did not see MATHEW during the whole of Sunday.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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Post by crusader on 03.10.19 21:06

I think Jane Tanner and Russell O'brien, Played a major part. It's what got me interested in the first place. Mathew Oldfield's statement is highly evasive.
4078: What about in the evenings when you were going back to check on Grace, do you recall some of the other people around.
Answer: No thered be rarely,rarely anybody about. Maybe an occasional one person, erm, tut was he, was it the chap, who's name I cant remember he had a child who was willing to be part of, or was being suggested for the interview, Jeremy,Jeremy or somebody.
4078: Yeah
Answer:Who had a child and I think I'd seen him around because I think their child didn't sleep particularly well and he may have been pushing or he might have been collecting from creche but what day or what time I don't really remember .
4078:How did you come to know Jeremy
Answer:It was a couple we spoke to while we were on. Jeremy I think I spoke to on the coach. Either on the coach, either on the coach or we already said something you know something when we were checking in sort of that'd have been 4 o'clock in the morning or whatever it was. And there was so I think I spoke to him on the coach or on the plane on the way over definitely on the coach or on the plane on the way over And sort of say Hi every now and again but didn't erm anything more than that really.
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