Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

by **Tony Bennett** 08.08.17 17:38

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-who-died-michael-barrymores-10946337

Man who died in Michael Barrymore's pool almost certainly 'drowned in accident', says former murder detective

It seems the mass media can call on a never-ending supply of tame Ex-Met Police Officers who, for a few hundred pounds (or probably a lot more), will trot out any old line the editor wants them to publish.

Especially where the culprit is a celebrity.

The Mirror report is an utter travesty and a sick joke.

And talking of 'Sick Jokes', the Daily Mail today has a story about Michael Barrymore with the words 'Sick Joke' in the title of their article.

Apparently he is to star in a musical about his life.

Words don't usually fail me...

...but they do right now...

I have spoken to Terry Lubbock this afternoon and there will be a robust response to both media stories...

by Cmaryholmes 08.08.17 18:08

G

Tony Bennett wrote:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-who-died-michael-barrymores-10946337

Man who died in Michael Barrymore's pool almost certainly 'drowned in accident', says former murder detective

It seems the mass media can call on a never-ending supply of tame Ex-Met Police Officers who, for a few hundred pounds (or probably a lot more), will trot out any old line the editor wants them to publish.

Especially where the culprit is a celebrity.

The Mirror report is an utter travesty and a sick joke.

And talking of 'Sick Jokes', the Daily Mail today has a story about Michael Barrymore with the words 'Sick Joke' in the title of their article.

Apparently he is to star in a musical about his life.

Words don't usually fail me...

...but they do right now...

I have spoken to Terry Lubbock this afternoon and there will be a robust response to both media stories...

I noticed that the esteemed ex detective uses the phrase 'window of opportunity'....where have I heard that expression before??

by Phoebe 08.08.17 21:22

Peter Kirkham says the “window of opportunity” for an attack to be carried out and covered up was so brief it made it almost impossible

Lets extend that logic - The "window of opportunity " for an abduction to be carried out and covered up (by getting away unseen and leaving no forensic trace) was so brief it made it almost impossible.

Thanks Mr. Kirkham.

The Barrymore case is another which stinks to high heaven!

by Guest 08.08.17 21:40

Tony Bennett wrote:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-who-died-michael-barrymores-10946337

Man who died in Michael Barrymore's pool almost certainly 'drowned in accident', says former murder detective

It seems the mass media can call on a never-ending supply of tame Ex-Met Police Officers who, for a few hundred pounds (or probably a lot more), will trot out any old line the editor wants them to publish.

Especially where the culprit is a celebrity.

The Mirror report is an utter travesty and a sick joke.

And talking of 'Sick Jokes', the Daily Mail today has a story about Michael Barrymore with the words 'Sick Joke' in the title of their article.

Apparently he is to star in a musical about his life.

Words don't usually fail me...

...but they do right now...

I have spoken to Terry Lubbock this afternoon and there will be a robust response to both media stories...

It is but a pipe-dream but really, something needs to be done about the attitude adopted by the UK press towards truth - they spread malicious lies with no restraint, it's an utter disgrace. They are accountable to someone but that someone cares not one iota for truth nor justice - nor even common decency. It's propaganda at it's finest.

The more I see of our illustrious British police force, ex and current, the more despondent I become. Whilst the copper out on the street is risking life and limb for public safety, the snotty nosed runts of the hierarchy are cashing-in big time at the expense of truth and justice. Retirement is no excuse - ex-coppers should have a moral conscience that prevents them from defecting to the other less savoury side of the law.

Well done Tony for standing-up against the rabid faction that would sell their souls to the devil for want of a farthing.

You have my undying respect thumbsup

.

by Guest 08.08.17 22:06

Mainstream media gets more like Pravda everyday.

by Guest 08.08.17 23:10

BlueBag wrote:Mainstream media gets more like Pravda everyday.

Shouldn't that be Prada? A superfluous over priced fashion accessory?

by sar 09.08.17 0:27

"...the devil wears Prada"

by dartinghero 09.08.17 2:56

There are so many things that are totally offensive in that article. How can anyone say
"Broad accounts...were basically accurate, after discrepancies are put to one side" in all seriousness?

"There is no motive for murder or serious sexual assault" What exactly does a motive for sexual assault consist of? I would suggest a sexual assault of any level of seriousness generally involves a willing and an unwilling participant.
I wish peace for this handsome young man's family who must suffer each time all this is dragged through the press like this.

by Guest 09.08.17 8:11

Using Occam's razor.

There almost certainly no motive for murder.

There is also probably no motive for serious sexual assault.

However this was a party (fueled by substances unknown) and someone probably got very carried away leading to serious sexual assault. Maybe they though it was funny.

How can an ex-police man not consider all the scenarios unless he is of the "move along nothing to see" ilk.

by Cmaryholmes 09.08.17 10:07

BlueBag wrote:Using Occam's razor.

There almost certainly no motive for murder.

There is also probably no motive for serious sexual assault.

However this was a party (fueled by substances unknown) and someone probably got very carried away leading to serious sexual assault. Maybe they though it was funny.

How can an ex-police man not consider all the scenarios unless he is of the "move along nothing to see" ilk.

A.Mr Barrymore and his buddies were probably sitting around drinking tea, having a pleasant, uplifting spiritual conversation, so how could serious sexual assault occur, never mind murder?
Or......
B. Mr Barrymore and his buddies know too much and have to be protected by the MSM at all costs.

by **Tony Bennett** 09.08.17 10:09

dartinghero wrote:"There is no motive for murder or serious sexual assault". What exactly does a motive for sexual assault consist of? I would suggest a sexual assault of any level of seriousness generally involves a willing and an unwilling participant.

@dartinghero

Precisely!

Imagine every barrister representing a rapist standing up and solemnly telling the jury: "There was no motive for this rape". The very idea of that is utterly absurd.

It shows how the Ex-Met Police Officer has 'scraped the barrel' to come up with that excuse after all four pathologists in the case: Dr. Michael John Heath, Professor Mark Milroy, Professor Jack Crane and Dr Ian Calder unanimously agreed that Stuart had suffered 'a serious sexual assault'.

If we needed proof that we have seriously dishonest, corrupt police in supposedly our 'top' police force, the Met, then this officer's conclusion that Stuart Lubbock 'couldn't' have been raped is surely that further proof?

Why it is difficult for some people to believe that Operation Grange was always a corrupt investigation from the get-go, I find very hard to understand.

The Daily Telegraph report below shows that actually Barrymore was desperate for sex that night.

Also, for anyone who still believes that the Daily Telegraph really did file a report on the Madeleine McCann case at 12.01am on Friday 4 May, please look at the time stamp on this archived article:

----------------------------------------

DRUNK BARRYMORE 'DEMANDED SEX'

By David Sapsted

12:01AM BST 12 Sep 2002

Michael Barrymore drunkenly demanded sex as he went home in a taxi for a party at which a young father died, an inquest was told yesterday.

The taxi driver told the inquest into the death of Stuart Lubbock, 31, that it was impossible to tell whether the entertainer was making his demand of the two men in the back with him or the woman in the front.

Mr Lubbock, of Harlow, Essex, was found drowned in Barrymore in Roydon, near Harlow, about 6am on March 31 last year.

The inquest in Epping has already heard that he had suffered serious injuries compatible with sexual assault, though there is no suggestion that Barrymore, 50, was involved in any such attack.

Former girlfriends of Mr Lubbock, including the mother of his two young daughters, said he would not have indulged willingly in a homosexual act.

Kevin Lubbock, 36, his brother, said: "Stuart wasn't gay or bisexual."

Mr Lubbock said he went to the Millennium nightclub with his brother late on March 30, last year.

Barrymore was also at the club and Stuart Lubbock was invited to a party at his home.

Shortly after 2.30am, Keith Herrett, a taxi driver, picked up the comedian, two men and a young woman.

One of the men said of Barrymore: "He's not like on the telly - he's a scruffy bastard."

The taxi driver said Barrymore spoke only a couple of times on the eight-minute drive back to his home. But at one stage, he had shouted out: "I could do with a good f*** right now."

He added: "Barrymore was not in a fit state, except to sit in a chair and go to sleep."

Barrymore is expected to give evidence today.

----

ETA: I forgot to thank everybody for their helpful observations so far on this thread.

@ BlueBag      You mentioned Occam's Razor. A bit off-topic, but this allows me to post a little bit about the man behind Occam's Razor: William of Ockham [name of a village in Surrey]. The bit about Occam's Razor is highlighted in red below:


http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/CHRISTIPEDIA-tm--WILLIAM-OCKHAM--CHRISTIAN-HERO-of-the-REFORMATION--BRIEF-BIO.html

William of Ockham joined the Franciscan order at an early age. It is believed that he studied theology at the University of Oxford from 1309 to 1321, but never completed his master's degree (the usual undergraduate degree in those times).

Because of this, he acquired the byname Venerabilis Inceptor, or "Worthy Beginner" (an inceptor was a student formally admitted to the ranks of teachers by the university authorities).

He was also known as the Doctor Invincibilis or "Unconquerable Teacher."

His work in this period became the subject of controversy, and many scholars have thought that Ockham was summoned before the Papal court of Avignon in 1324 under charges of heresy.

During the Middle Ages of Europe, theologian Peter Lombard’s Sentences (1150) had become a standard work of theology, and many ambitious theological scholars wrote commentaries on it.

William of Ockham was among these scholarly commentators. However, Ockham’s commentary was not well received by his colleagues, or by the church authorities.

In 1324, his commentary was condemned as unorthodox by a synod of bishops, and he was ordered to Avignon, France, to defend himself before a papal court.

For two years, he was confined to a Franciscan house, until he was condemned as a heretic in 1326.

An alternative theory, recently proposed by George Knysh, suggests that he was initially appointed in Avignon as a professor of philosophy in the Franciscan school, and that his disciplinary difficulties did not begin until 1327.

It is generally believed that these charges were levied by Oxford chancellor John Lutterell.

It was in this year that the Franciscan Minister General, Michael of Cesena, had been summoned to Avignon, to answer charges of heresy.

A theological commission had been asked to review his Commentary on the Sentences, and it was during this that Ockham found himself involved in a different debate.

Michael of Cesena had asked Ockham to review arguments surrounding Apostolic poverty. (The most uncompromising Franciscans, known as spirituals, believed that Jesus and his apostles owned no personal property, and survived by begging and accepting the gifts of others).

This brought them into conflict with Pope John XXII.

Eventually, fearing imprisonment and possible execution, Ockham, Michael of Cesena and other Franciscan sympathizers fled Avignon on 26 May 1328, and eventually took refuge in the court of the Holy Roman Emperor Louis IV of Bavaria - who was also engaged in dispute with the papacy, and became Ockham's patron.

After studying the works of John XXII and previous papal statements, Ockham agreed with the Minister General.

In return for protection and patronage Ockham wrote treaties that argued for King Louis to have supreme control over church and state in the Holy Roman Empire.

For doing this Ockham was solemnly excommunicated by Pope John XXII, while Ockham believed that John XXII was himself guilty of heresy for refusing to accept the Franciscan claim.

However, though Ockham was excommunicated, his philosophy was never officially condemned.

He spent much of the remainder of his life writing about political issues, including the relative authority and rights of the spiritual and temporal powers.

After Michael of Cesena's death in 1342, William became the leader of the small band of Franciscan dissidents living in exile with Louis IV.

Ockham died (prior to the outbreak of the plague, or Black Death) either on 10 April 1347[9] or (more likely) on 9 April 1348 in the Franciscan convent at Munich in Bavaria.

He was officially rehabilitated by Innocent VI in 1359.

Faith and reason

William of Ockham believed “only faith gives us access to theological truths. The ways of God are not open to reason, for God has freely chosen to create a world and establish a way of salvation within it apart from any necessary laws that human logic or rationality can uncover.”

Ockham's theism was based solely on private revelation and faith (he supported some sort of Non-overlapping magisteria).

He believed that only science was a matter of discovery and saw God as the only ontological necessity.

Philosophical thought In scholasticism

Ockham advocated a reform both in method and in content, the aim of which was simplification.

Ockham incorporated much of the work of some previous theologians, especially John Duns Scotus.

From Scotus, Ockham derived his view of divine omnipotence, his view of grace and justification, much of his epistemology and ethical convictions.

However, he also reacted to and against Scotus in the areas of predestination, penance, his understanding of universals, his distinction ex parte rei (that is, "as applied to created things"), and his view of parsimony.

Nominalism

A pioneer of nominalism, some consider him the father of modern epistemology, because of his strongly argued position that only individuals exist, rather than supra-individual universals, essences, or forms, and that universals are the products of abstraction from individuals by the human mind and have no extra-mental existence.

He denied the real existence of metaphysical universals and advocated the reduction of ontology.

Ockham is sometimes considered an advocate of conceptualism rather than nominalism, for whereas nominalists held that universals were merely names, i.e. words rather than existing realities, conceptualists held that they were mental concepts, i.e. the names were names of concepts, which do exist, although only in the mind.

Therefore, the universal concept has for its object, not a reality existing in the world outside us, but an internal representation which is a product of the understanding itself and which "supposes" in the mind the things to which the mind attributes it; that is, it holds, for the time being, the place of the things which it represents.

It is the term of the reflective act of the mind. Hence the universal is not a mere word, as Roscelin taught, nor a sermo, as Abelard held, namely the word as used in the sentence, but the mental substitute for real things, and the term of the reflective process. For this reason Ockham has been called a "terminist", to distinguish him from a nominalist or a conceptualist.

Ontological parsimony and ‘Occam’s Razor'

One important contribution that he made to modern science and modern intellectual culture was the principle of parsimony in explanation and theory building that came to be known as Occam's Razor.

This maxim, as interpreted by Bertrand Russell, states that if one can explain a phenomenon without assuming this or that hypothetical entity, there is no ground for assuming it, i.e. that one should always opt for an explanation in terms of the fewest possible causes, factors, or variables.

He turned this into a concern for ontological parsimony; the principle says that one should not multiply entities beyond necessity – Entia non sunt multiplicanda sine necessitate – although this well-known formulation of the principle is not to be found in any of Ockham's extant writings.

He formulates it as: “For nothing ought to be posited without a reason given, unless it is self-evident (literally, known through itself) or known by experience or proved by the authority of Sacred Scripture.”

For Ockham, the only truly necessary entity is God; everything else is contingent.

He thus does not accept the principle of sufficient reason, rejects the distinction between essence and existence, and advocates against the Thomistic doctrine of active and passive intellect.

His scepticism to which his ontological parsimony request leads appears in his doctrine that human reason can prove neither the immortality of the soul nor the existence, unity, and infinity of God.

These truths, he teaches, are known to us by Revelation alone.

Natural philosophy

Ockham wrote a great deal on natural philosophy, including a long commentary on Aristotle's physics.

According to the principle of ontological parsimony, he holds that we do not need to allow entities in all ten of Aristotle's categories; we thus do not need the category of quantity, as the mathematical entities are not "real".

Mathematics must be applied to other categories, such as the categories of substance or qualities, thus anticipating modern scientific renaissance while violating Aristotelian prohibition of metabasis.

Theory of knowledge

In the theory of knowledge, Ockham rejected the scholastic theory of species, as unnecessary and not supported by experience, in favour of a theory of abstraction.

This was an important development in late medieval epistemology.

He also distinguished between intuitive and abstract cognition; intuitive cognition depends on the existence or non-existence of the object, whereas abstractive cognition "abstracts" the object from the existence predicate. It is not yet decided among interpreters as to the role of these two types of cognitive activities.

Political theory

Ockham is also increasingly being recognized as an important contributor to the development of Western constitutional ideas, especially those of government with limited responsibility.

He was one of the first medieval authors to advocate a form of church/state separation, and was important for the early development of the notion of property rights. His political ideas are regarded as "natural" or "secular", holding for a secular absolutism.

The views on monarchical accountability espoused in his Dialogus (written between 1332 and 1348) greatly influenced the Conciliar movement and assisted in the emergence of liberal democratic ideologies.

Logic

In logic, Ockham wrote down in words the formulae that would later be called De Morgan's Laws, and he pondered ternary logic, that is, a logical system with three truth values; a concept that would be taken up again in the mathematical logic of the 19th and 20th centuries.

Literary Ockhamism/Nominalism

Ockham and his works have been discussed as a possible influence on several late medieval literary figures and works, especially Geoffrey Chaucer, but also Jean Molinet, the Gawain Poet, François Rabelais, John Skelton, Julian of Norwich, the York and Townely Plays, and Renaissance romances.

Only in very few of these cases is it possible to demonstrate direct links to Ockham or his texts.

However, correspondences between Ockhamist and Nominalist philosophy/theology and literary texts from medieval to postmodern times have been discussed within the scholarly paradigm of literary nominalism.

Works

Wikisource has original works written by or about: William of Ockham… [SNIPPED]

by plebgate 09.08.17 22:12

dartinghero wrote:There are so many things that are totally offensive in that article. How can anyone say
"Broad accounts...were basically accurate, after discrepancies are put to one side" in all seriousness?

"There is no motive for murder or serious sexual assault" What exactly does a motive for sexual assault consist of? I would suggest a sexual assault of any level of seriousness generally involves a willing and an unwilling participant.
I wish peace for this handsome young man's family who must suffer each time all this is dragged through the press like this.

I find myself having to shake my head in disbelief time and again but that is an astonishing thing imo "after discrepancies are put to one side" Jeez I cannot believe what I read, I really cannot.

Good post, very good post DH.

Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

DRUNK BARRYMORE 'DEMANDED SEX'

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

Re: Ex-Met Police Detective says he has no doubt that Stuart Lubbock 'died in a drowning accident' - Daily Mirror headline today (8 Aug 2017)

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