We can't be sure Maddie WASN'T seen but is there Confirmation/Proof that she WAS seen?

sar wrote:"The trouble with Catriona Baker is her seemingly unecessary prominence." in some quarters that could be seen as something close to exhibitionism?

I need to know what quarters you are talking of before your question can be answered.  Assuming it is a question?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - morning. I think the usual routine given was high tea; playtime; bath/story; bed, wasn't it. On the 3 May, the Mc statements say that there was some plan to bring their children back down to play after baths but I think that was all tied up with the 'Incredible Tale of Dr Payne'.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - you and me both. The stated creche arrangements are dubious IMO - I know I have trawled through all this before but I think it is worth going over it again as briefly as possible:

- firstly, it is important to understand that the OC is divided into 3 definite sections/areas: Waterside Gardens (Tapas area + the whole of the adult pool complex and the OC main reception/indoor pool building); Ocean Club Gardens (starts to the right of the main reception car park and takes in the Millenium complex to the north east); Waterside Village (south of the Waterside Gardens and extending down to the beach area).

- secondly, MarkWarner bought out the OC when their Piedra del Rei resort wasn't completed on time. The tented 'childcare centre' (purpose built in 2006?) accommodated their signature kids clubs - similar centres exist in their other resorts.

Now comes the interesting bit:

There are 3 parts to this - the existence of a resort map for the OC, produced by MW for its website (and possibly in the welcome packs as hard copy?); the childcare description text/wording used on the MW website for the OC; and, the accompanying photo of the OC tented childcare centre used.

A. From 19 May 2006 to 9 July 2007 the MW website text states the following:

Ocean Club Summer Beach Resort

Childcare

Located in the Waterside Garden is our fully equipped childcare centre offering our award winning childcare for children aged 4 months and upwards. There is a colourful crèche with an outdoor play area and the nannies organise regular beach trips and other supervised fun activities for the children. Hours are 9am till 12.30pm and 2.30pm to 5.30pm.

We offer a ‘dining out service’ (only available for parents using the Millenium and Tapas restaurants) in the crèche on a drop-in basis in the evenings for children aged 4 months to 9 years. For those parents wishing to dine at alternative restaurants in the village, babysitting is available on request at additional charge. Our Indy Club for 14-17 year olds is situated near the Ocean Club Gardens.

There is no resort map/childcentre photo/further description of club locations - there is no indication that any of the children's clubs are based in the main reception building and the fact that the beach trips are tied into the same sentence as the colourful creche and the outdoor play area suggests that the beach trips (minis and older) set off from there.

There are no trawl records between 9 July and end October 2007 (that I can find) for this section of the MW website - probably for obvious reasons.

B. By the end of October 2007 (latest), the MW website is showing a resort map.

The map clearly states that the 6+ age range kids clubs are next to the Millenium Restaurant; that the minis (3-5 years; and the toddler 2's (2 years)) are both in the tented creche next to the Tapas Restaurant; that the toddler 1's (1 year) and the babies (4-11 months) are in the end property below the tapas tennis courts but still in Waterside Gardens (this has been highlighted by another poster, seemingly in the know, as being used for the baby club at the time). No indication what-so-ever that any rooms above/near to main reception are being used.

The accompanying text states:

Award-winning childcare

The Ocean Club offers a unique 'dine out' service. Simply get your little ones ready for bed and drop them off at our kids club. We'll watch over them whilst you go out and enjoy yourselves and you can pick them up on your way home.

The childcare photo on the same page clearly shows the new tented creche at the OC (not a generic MW creche photo) - the children shown in the photo are mini club age.

C. By 10 Dec 07 the above text has been removed but the map (with same club locations indicated) and photo remain in place.

D. Between 5 April 08 and 18 April 2008 the page in question is expanded (just in time for the 08 summer season guests) to cover a number of activities available and a new childcare description for 2008 appears:


By 4 Feb 2009 the description has changed again to 2009:

AND - just as an add on before we get back on track with the topic of this thread, for anyone who doesn't subscribe to the creche records having been falsified, please can you answer me this one:

Why would blank creche record sheets printed out presumably from a pdf file (or Word for that matter) have blatant discrepancies unless they had been fiddled with?

Examples:
Lobsters 30 May - 'Date' reads 'bate'; 'parents' is missing from 'parents location';
Jellyfish 2 May: - 'markwarner' reads 'rnarkwarner' and 'Parents' is spelt 'Parente';
There are 2 different type faces randomly used for the word 'markwarner'.

I won't post a link for obvious reasons but it would appear the major league of sceptics are still unconvinced that the PJ files cannot provide conclusive evidence that Madeleine was seen by a reliable independent witness between lunchtime on Sunday 29th April and the night of Thursday 3rd May 2007.

Perhaps they should re-read this thread, this time with a less critical eye and acknowledge the rationale presented, not only by HiDeHo - who seems to be taking the most flak for daring to highlight the questionable subject - but the many members on CMoMM and outsiders who can see the bigger picture.

Otherwise provide a valid argument to counter the conclusion reached as opposed to ad hominem attacks just for the sake of it.

@ skyrocket 

From Gerry's 7th Sept 2007 statement -

-" Regarding the episode where he spoke to David on the 3rd of May, he says that he was playing tennis at 18:30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him if he was going to continue playing. G. said he didn't know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers".

Also from Kate's statement May 4th 2007 -

 "After the 5pm dinner, they give the children a bath, prepare them for the night and let them play for a while in a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision."


It does seem bizarre to bathe children, dress them for bed and then bring them back outdoors to run around in a playground! As far as I can make out the McCanns alone followed this strange routine. The rest of the group claimed to allow their children playtime first, then bathed them and put them straight to bed, as one would expect. If the McCann children were being bathed while the others were playing and came out later when the others had left for their baths and bed who did they play with? Frankly I don't believe a word. I suspect they were conscious of how it would sound if they admitted to packing the kids off to creche all day, then bathing and putting them to bed a.s.a.p. 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - as you say, none of the Mcs (et al) accounts can be believed. KM contradicts herself in her 6 May statement. Seems unlikely that parents would bathe their kids and then let them go out and run around and roll all over the grass - getting grubby and wound up in equal measures.

Did they go to the play area after high tea on the rest of the days? Did they go minus Madeleine from early in the week? Might it have been more obvious on the Thursday night that Madeleine was not there because the rest of the group (Ella/Lily) were absent, hence the early return to the apartment straight after high tea? Did anything that any of the T9 say happen that week, actually happen??

Note what Matthew says in his rogatory:


Erm, but a lot of the time we ended up, there was sort of like a play area by the pool with sort of like a plastic, you know, sort of house and little slides, and we spent most evenings, after the kids, because the kids ate a little bit earlier, they ate about sort of quarter to five sometime round there, they'd have their tea, and we'd all move over to this sort of play area, because, I mean, it was fantastic, because there was just like little play houses and things and, you know, sort of lots of grass, so there'd be lots of sort of, they'd sort of chase each other round, they'd play on these bits and, you know, we'd chase them, erm, backwards and forwards, you know, taking it in turns and just sort of stand around and chat. Some people might play tennis at that point in sort of part of the social games, because they did, they did like a sort of mixed, women's night, men's night, social, like that. So there was definitely times when Rachael was on the court, because Grace would be going, like sort of seeing them on the court, she didn't like it, she'd look like at the netting, going 'Mummy, mummy' and 'Come on, come and play'. Erm, so that was pretty much the routine for most nights and we may have gone over and played with that, erm, played with that stuff a little bit earlier as well'.
 

00.46.17 4078 'Was it during those sort of times where you got to know Gerry and Kate a little bit more''

Reply 'Predominantly those, because that's when we saw them most, I mean, it'd be sort of a good hour. And the awful thing was that Madeleine always used to say 'Oh come on be a monster, be a monster, chase me' and, you know, and you think, you know, there really are, you know, it was all pretend at that point, but of course, erm, not as it turned out that, you know, the fact that she said that was, erm. But, you know, it was all, you know, fun, the children running round and then they'd all jump on Dave or jump on Gerry, it was all, you know, they got on great, there was a sort of good range of ages so they had enough people to play with, yeah, it was great, they loved it, running around'.

Title of thread..

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Still no takers?  Now why doesn't that surprise me - lost for words are we?

I can wait .

Not ONE piece of evidence that Maddie was seen after Sunday lunchtime

We have NOT been searching to prove Maddie WASN'T seen.  It is possible that she WAS.

We are searching for the EVIDENCE and so far, there isn't any!  WHY?


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