The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

pennylane wrote:

Plebgate I totally agree.  I think there was more than one complaint

REPLY: Is there any evidence at all for that?

and the McCanns were trying to minimize the fall out for neglect by trying to consolidate them, and take control. 

REPLY: I am afraid that amidst all the mix-ups about whether the crying incident occurred the night before, or two nights before, and whether it was Madeleine who heard the twins crying, or Sean, or Madeleine and Sean, or Amelie on the Wednesday, etc., and with all the multiple doubts surrounding the timing and content of Mrs Fenn's statement and the newspaper reports that preceded it, I am at present quite unable to accept that there ever was a crying incident. These multiple contradictions in my experience clearly point to a fabricated claim 
     
It's also entirely possible the McCanns were witnessed elsewhere on the 1st

REPLY: You say 'possible', but apart from the very dubious evidence of the hairdresser, what other evidence exists that they were 'witnessed elsewhere' on the night of the 1st?

when the lengthy crying was heard and that was why they were paranoid about it.  They would have no idea what the PJ is about to find out, and they will be extremely uptight about anything that could hang them out to dry, so damage limitations was foremost in their minds (imo).

Also there was no need for Kate to 'prove' Madeleine was alive on 3rd (as some claim), as the nanny Catriona Baker was with her (imo), and gave detailed information to the PJ of her time spent with Maddie during that day. 

REPLY: As you know, HideHo, Richard Hall and others have analysed so many contradictions about this alleged high tea with Madeleine on 3 May, as between the statements of Baker, Pennington and the Drs McCann that IMO it is not possible to say that this high tea took place as claimed

Hence I don't believe that was behind the Mc's 'mummy why didn't you come' statement.

plebgate wrote:aw Tony, not criticisms of you but debate to try and work this puzzle out.

If Murat was "working" for TM and Mrs. Fenn was primed beforehand but forgot,

REPLY: It is possible that she was 'primed' but when questioned by police immediately following Madeleine's reported disappearance simply decided to tell them nothing

it seems to me a rather odd that Murat should then be pointed out by Tanner and wasn't Mrs. reported as saying she believed Murat might know something or words to that effect?

REPLY: Very true, and as I've pointed out many a time, the McCann Team made a concerted effort to 'frame' Murat, including not only the points you've made, but also of course Fiona Payne, Russell O'Brien and Rachael Oldfield all rushing off to the police the moment Murat was arrested and claiming they'd seen Murat hovering around the Ocean Club on the evening of 3rd May. Behind the scenes, the British police and secret services were also briefing Amaral and his team that Murat fitted the profile of the likely abductor '90%' and then of course Clarence Mitchell's media pal Lori Campbell was also pointing a media finger at Murat. I say this was a concerted 'plot' to frame Murat - and I've repeated that for many years.

Two explanations could fit the known facts IMO:

1. Murat was not only hired by the McCann Team to translate the PJ interviews, and maybe get up to other things on 1st ,2nd and 3rd May, but also to act as the 'Fall Guy', and take suspicion away from the McCanns.

OR

2. He was hired to do some work before the alarm was raised, hired to do the PJ translations, but was then double-crossed. If that hypothesis is correct, that would in turn provide Martin Smith, who certainly knew Murat, with a rational explanation for his suddenly producing 'Smithman' the day after Murat was made a suspect. It would also explain the high-level 'summit meeting' at the Eveleighs' villa on 13 November 2007 when the Murat Team and the McCann Team confronted each other       

Why bring Mrs Glyn into it?  I know this has not been confirmed but I believe Mrs. Fenn did phone her as she had no way of knowing whether the police would confirm this was true or not.

REPLY: We have no corroboration whatsoever about any Mrs Edna Glyn. Who exactly was she? Was she really 'phoned? At 11pm at night? - well after most elderly people have gone to bed? Did she say just 'I am not surprised?' Nothing else? Were both women willing to do nothing about a child sobbing relentlessly for 75 solid minutes? Where did Mrs Glyn live? In Praia da Luz? Or England?

edited to add - there seem a heck of a lot of reports of crying if no such event took place.  What a puzzle indeed.

REPLY: Yes, we now have

* Mrs Fenn saying she heard crying and 'phoned Mrs Glyn - 1 May
* McCanns talking to Fiona and Jane about the crying incident on 3 May
* Both McCanns making sure the police knew about the crying incident on 4 May
* 'It was the twins'
* 'It was Madeleine'
* 'It was Madeleine and Sean'
* 'It was Amelie on Wednesday'  
* 'It was Amelie on Wednesday and Madeleine and Sean on Thursday'
* Murat 'phoning a GNR officer saying 'a foreign woman rang me up about a crying incident' (or foreign women as per 'skyrocket')
* The press on 18 August saying Mrs Fenn was going to give a statement about a crying incident
* Mrs Fenn making a statement on 20 August...

...but then...

...but then, after all this, Mrs Fenn telling the world on camera: "It's all rubbish...please ignore it"  

plebgate wrote:It could well be Mrs. Murat was rung (local gossip) about the incident and Murat told the newspaper they had rung him as he had answered the phone.

dottyaussie wrote:Tony do you know if Murat was asked about this when he was spoken to by the PJ or if he mentioned it to anyone other than the GNR ?

Tony Bennett wrote:

pennylane wrote:

Plebgate I totally agree.  I think there was more than one complaint

REPLY: Is there any evidence at all for that?

and the McCanns were trying to minimize the fall out for neglect by trying to consolidate them, and take control. 

REPLY: I am afraid that amidst all the mix-ups about whether the crying incident occurred the night before, or two nights before, and whether it was Madeleine who heard the twins crying, or Sean, or Madeleine and Sean, or Amelie on the Wednesday, etc., and with all the multiple doubts surrounding the timing and content of Mrs Fenn's statement and the newspaper reports that preceded it, I am at present quite unable to accept that there ever was a crying incident. These multiple contradictions in my experience clearly point to a fabricated claim 
     
It's also entirely possible the McCanns were witnessed elsewhere on the 1st

REPLY: You say 'possible', but apart from the very dubious evidence of the hairdresser, what other evidence exists that they were 'witnessed elsewhere' on the night of the 1st?

when the lengthy crying was heard and that was why they were paranoid about it.  They would have no idea what the PJ is about to find out, and they will be extremely uptight about anything that could hang them out to dry, so damage limitations was foremost in their minds (imo).

Also there was no need for Kate to 'prove' Madeleine was alive on 3rd (as some claim), as the nanny Catriona Baker was with her (imo), and gave detailed information to the PJ of her time spent with Maddie during that day. 

REPLY: As you know, HideHo, Richard Hall and others have analysed so many contradictions about this alleged high tea with Madeleine on 3 May, as between the statements of Baker, Pennington and the Drs McCann that IMO it is not possible to say that this high tea took place as claimed

Hence I don't believe that was behind the Mc's 'mummy why didn't you come' statement.

Tony Bennett wrote:

plebgate wrote:aw Tony, not criticisms of you but debate to try and work this puzzle out.

If Murat was "working" for TM and Mrs. Fenn was primed beforehand but forgot,

REPLY: It is possible that she was 'primed' but when questioned by police immediately following Madeleine's reported disappearance simply decided to tell them nothing

When would she have been primed and wouldn't that have made her part of some "plot".  Why would she agree to become involved in any "plot" involving the disappearance of a little girl?

it seems to me a rather odd that Murat should then be pointed out by Tanner and wasn't Mrs. reported as saying she believed Murat might know something or words to that effect?

REPLY: Very true, and as I've pointed out many a time, the McCann Team made a concerted effort to 'frame' Murat, including not only the points you've made, but also of course Fiona Payne, Russell O'Brien and Rachael Oldfield all rushing off to the police the moment Murat was arrested and claiming they'd seen Murat hovering around the Ocean Club on the evening of 3rd May. Behind the scenes, the British police and secret services were also briefing Amaral and his team that Murat fitted the profile of the likely abductor '90%' and then of course Clarence Mitchell's media pal Lori Campbell was also pointing a media finger at Murat. I say this was a concerted 'plot' to frame Murat - and I've repeated that for many years.

Two explanations could fit the known facts IMO:

1. Murat was not only hired by the McCann Team to translate the PJ interviews, and maybe get up to other things on 1st ,2nd and 3rd May, but also to act as the 'Fall Guy', and take suspicion away from the McCanns.

Possible but very risky business why would he do that and how would he know that Mrs. Fenn wouldn't blab that she had been asked to become involved in some sort of plot?

OR

2. He was hired to do some work before the alarm was raised, hired to do the PJ translations, but was then double-crossed. If that hypothesis is correct, that would in turn provide Martin Smith, who certainly knew Murat, with a rational explanation for his suddenly producing 'Smithman' the day after Murat was made a suspect. It would also explain the high-level 'summit meeting' at the Eveleighs' villa on 13 November 2007 when the Murat Team and the McCann Team confronted each other     

Again possible but who was paying him?  We have been told Mr. & Mrs. had no money and double crossing him would have been very risky as  they would not have known he wouldn't tell the whole story of being hired and bringing Mrs. Fenn into the plot as well.

Why bring Mrs Glyn into it?  I know this has not been confirmed but I believe Mrs. Fenn did phone her as she had no way of knowing whether the police would confirm this was true or not.

REPLY: We have no corroboration whatsoever about any Mrs Edna Glyn. Who exactly was she? Was she really 'phoned? At 11pm at night? - well after most elderly people have gone to bed? Did she say just 'I am not surprised?' Nothing else? Were both women willing to do nothing about a child sobbing relentlessly for 75 solid minutes? Where did Mrs Glyn live? In Praia da Luz? Or England?

We know nothing of Mrs. Glyn, but the police would have been able to contact her to confirm what Mrs. Fenn had said.   Would Mrs. Fenn really have taken such a risk and been questioned as to why she would say it happened when it had not?  Mrs. Fenn was up at 11pm so why wouldn't her friend be?

edited to add - there seem a heck of a lot of reports of crying if no such event took place.  What a puzzle indeed.

REPLY: Yes, we now have

* Mrs Fenn saying she heard crying and 'phoned Mrs Glyn - 1 May
* McCanns talking to Fiona and Jane about the crying incident on 3 May
* Both McCanns making sure the police knew about the crying incident on 4 May
* 'It was the twins'
* 'It was Madeleine'
* 'It was Madeleine and Sean'
* 'It was Amelie on Wednesday'  
* 'It was Amelie on Wednesday and Madeleine and Sean on Thursday'
* Murat 'phoning a GNR officer saying 'a foreign woman rang me up about a crying incident' (or foreign women as per 'skyrocket')
* The press on 18 August saying Mrs Fenn was going to give a statement about a crying incident
* Mrs Fenn making a statement on 20 August...

...but then...

...but then, after all this, Mrs Fenn telling the world on camera: "It's all rubbish...please ignore it"  

Tony Bennett wrote:

plebgate wrote:It could well be Mrs. Murat was rung (local gossip) about the incident and Murat told the newspaper they had rung him as he had answered the phone.

No, he didn't tell 'the newspaper'. He told a GNR officer at their Lagos HQ

plebgate wrote:  Were they offered the babysitter service because of different reports of crying (not Mrs. Fenn)  and maybe it was mentioned in Mrs' 4th May statement because of this and not because of anything Mrs. Fenn may have reported on 4th May.
  

plebgate wrote:
If Murat was "working" for TM and Mrs. Fenn was primed before hand but forgot, it seems to me a rather odd that Murat should then be pointed out by Tanner and wasn't Mrs. reported as saying she believed Murat might know something or words to that effect?

Why bring Mrs Glyn into it? 

Verdi wrote:

plebgate wrote:  Were they offered the babysitter service because of different reports of crying (not Mrs. Fenn)  and maybe it was mentioned in Mrs' 4th May statement because of this and not because of anything Mrs. Fenn may have reported on 4th May.
  

This subject was covered up-thread.  There is no evidence to suggest that the McCanns were offered the service of a babysitter at any stage of the week, other than the welcome meeting when they would have been told of all the Ocean Club services, along with all the other new guests.

Verdi wrote:

plebgate wrote:
If Murat was "working" for TM and Mrs. Fenn was primed before hand but forgot, it seems to me a rather odd that Murat should then be pointed out by Tanner and wasn't Mrs. reported as saying she believed Murat might know something or words to that effect?

Why bring Mrs Glyn into it? 

A devious diversionary tactic maybe?

Who is Mrs Glyn (other than a claimed friend of Pamela Fenn) - does anyone know?

plebgate wrote:Regarding the post about Mrs. mentioning a crying incident on the Thursday at the table.

Yes it is quite possible that Mrs. got wind that Mrs. Fenn had spoken to the police about hearing crying on 1st May especially if Mrs. Fenn had had a knock on the door early morning of 4th May, 2007.

IIRC Mrs. gave her statement in the afternoon of 4th May, 2007 at 2.20pm.

Did anybody else mention in their 4th May 2007 statements about a crying incident being mentioned on the Thursday at the table?

..................................


I think it is also worth remembering that these are only theories being put forward on this thread to be knocked down and hopefully help toward making sense of it all.

Posting that there is no evidence of this that or the other is obvious as equally there is no evidence that Mrs. Fenn was coerced into anything but instead of stating the obvious posters are trying to come up with something that might make sense.

At the moment I haven't been convinced that Mrs. Fenn was coerced into anything especially since it would have been such a huge risk for her personally if it ever came out that this had been the case.

dottyaussie wrote:I really thought we had moved on from the crying incident being some sort of conspiracy. But the way things are going it will be Mrs Fenn, the hairdresser, Robert Murat, Jenny Murat, 'these women' and the GNR officer all being coerced !!

dottyaussie wrote:As Skyrocket has pointed out


That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.


I think we need to remember that Murat and his mother were proving to be very 'helpful' at the time. Murat was handing over his phone number to anyone that he could and his mother had her information stand. These women could have been given Murat's phone number by either of these ways. So they didn't necessarily know him.

These women had already been interviewed by the police and the GNR officers statement was 16/5/07. So both of these things happened 3 months before the Mrs Fenn stories were coming out in the Press.

sharonl wrote:Regardless of whether or not the crying incident really did occur, and whether there was such a telephone call that night, Murat phoned the Lagos post and told them that a foreign woman had called him to tell him that a child was crying in an apartment near her.  This all allegedly took place late evening on the 1st or 2nd of May.

1.  Why would Mrs Fenn phone Robert Murat to say that a child was crying?
2.  Why Robert Murat? What could he possibly do about a crying child that he didn't know?
3.  Did Mrs Fenn already know Robert Murat?
4.  To call someone that late at night you would need to be well acquainted with them.
5.  If this is true, then Mrs Fenn must have been friendly enough with Murat to have had his telephone number
6.  If Mrs Fenn and Murat were such good friends, or so well acquainted prior to May 3rd, that also raises suspicion.

So Murat,  is really telling us that he and Mrs Fenn were known to each other prior to May 3rd, well enough for her to have his telephone number and to call him late at night to chat about a child crying.

Extract from the statement of GNR officer Paolo Jorge Carvaihosa da Costa

When asked he said that he never saw Robert Murat in all the times he visited the scene.

He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.