The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

BarryTheHatchet wrote:It could also have been one of the twins sobbing for "Daddy" or "Maddie" when their sister wouldn't wake up....

 Good point, I hadn't thought of it being one of the twins, crying for whatever reason.

pennylane wrote:It was one child crying as you say, and (imo) it was Maddie.

Don't you find it strange that :
1. She didn't wake the other children up ? The crying went on for over an hour and was loud enough to be heard by Mrs Fenn.
2. The crying stopped immediately on someone entering/ exiting the apartment via the patio doors. Children do NOT stop crying immediately after a period of sobbing. They tend to utter intermittent loud sobs until they stop feeling sorry ( sometimes justified )  for themselves. There usually follows a period of soothing from the parents. Mrs Fenn didn't hear  anyone speaking to a child. If she was listening to the child crying for over an hour  from her apartment I'm sure she'd listen to hear what else was going on once the parents had entered.
3. Were the twins even in the apartment or were they being babyminded with the friends' children in another apartment whilst Kate grieved on her own?

Kaz wrote:1. She didn't wake the other children up ? The crying went on for over an hour and was loud enough to be heard by Mrs Fenn.

Hi kaz, no I don't find it strange particularly since the twins didn't wake up with all the commotion on the 3rd also.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment , earlier onkaz referred to 30thApril/1st May as unfortunate .This is the Beltane festival , a Pagan/Celtic fire festival , fire as in purification and cleansing. Beltane is a festival of fertility for the coming season, rebirth handfasting and celebration . Hope for the fertility of the earth and the seeds planted which was vitally important to the ancestors. The Christian church took over and it became May Day.Again sorry to go off topic but there is nothing occult or unfortunate about Beltane .

In Ireland its called Lá Bealtaine.  Its mainly a blessing for new beginnings and protection of the earth and all in it as far as I remember.  its a seasonal festival.

In saying that, it may have been an Unfortunate day for Madeleine sadly.

Sadly no protection for poor Madeleine , especially from those who were supposed to protect her, her parents !

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]:  (are you also curious about this UK citizen that seemed to be under imminent arrest with all police holidays cancelled and a search warrant with a 48 hr deadline?)


!

Frankly no I'm not - I think it was nothing but media hype.  I have seen absolutely nothing official (or even close to official) to verify the claim.  Let's face it, according to the press at one stage the whole lot of them were under surveillance by UK authorities, on another occasion two or four (depending on which report) of the Tapas group had changed their stories and were due to be re-interviewed by the PJ and/or UK police.  These different accounts have never been officially verified and have since faded into obscurity.  How or why they emerged in the first place, I haven't the foggiest - it's said there is no smoke without fire but we all know that's not necessarily true.

A degree of theorizing/speculation is inevitable in the absence of fact but I really do feel that sometimes there is a tendency to drift into the realms of fantasy, either by unsubstantiated press reports or an over active mind.  Not a problem in itself I guess but it can convey the wrong message - especially when the over active mind is allowed to go rampant without check.  As has been seen many times - even on this forum. 

Not saying that you fall into this category - again just a generalization.

Keep up the good work!

According to Carol Tranmer her niece, Pamela Fenn owned the apartment which was contained within the Ocean Club complex - as already known the particular block of apartments was situated outside the boundary of the Ocean Club secure area.  For this reason I doubt there was/is any security services for a private owner - whether or not the entire block of apartments was facilitated by the Ocean Club security (which I doubt as they stress the vulnerability of their accommodation situated outside the boundary walls), I shouldn't think the Ocean Club staff would object to assisting an elderly lady living alone.

Had Pamela Fenn reported an attempted burglary to the Ocean Club staff the week preceding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I would expect to see some evidence of such contained in the PJ files along with the many other strangers reported, such as charity collectors.  The same I would expect if Mrs Fenn had reported an incident to the police but there is no evidence to verify an attempted burglary, nor the reporting of such.

I've yet to see a convincing argument that Mrs Fenn was the victim of a burglary or attempted burglary.  This is snatched from Carol Tranmer's witness statement which gives an idea of the layout of Pamela Fenn's apartment and in my opinion, shows how unlikely the alleged burglary story is..

DC1485'How long has she been there, in that apartment'

CT'When my uncle died, they had a villa close to Lagos, but when he died of Alzheimer's, she sold it to buy the site in Luz. She bought it because it was surrounded by people and it was easy for her to come and go as she did not want a big site. She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain, but I believe that there is one more apartment

DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'

CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.

DC1485'Third floor.

CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.

DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'

CT'You turn left.

DC1485'Sure.

CT'You walk, as it is a long corridor. It is open at the back part, it is an open corridor open in such a way one can see the front because the back part, if you can call that part which is turned toward the pool, but the front part of the building, is in truth the back of the same. Does this make sense'

DC1485'Yes, that makes sense.

CT'Because this is the entry, the only entry point and exit point, after this there is only the veranda and the terrace and nothing more. It has been there since 2003.


DC1485'Who else lives there'

CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.
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Not much scope there for a burglar!  If alleged burglar managed to reach Mrs Fenns's apartment and break-in, then she would have a lot more to say than a passing comment about an attempted burglary.  If alleged burglar didn't manage to enter the apartment - how did she know there was an attempted burglary?  Besides, professional burglars don't fanny about trying to enter through the conventional means - the front door.  They have ways in which to silently break the lock (if that be the right expression).  Under the circumstances I think the occupant would be very aware of a 'burglary' and very determined to do something positive about it.

BarryTheHatchet wrote:It could also have been one of the twins sobbing for "Daddy" or "Maddie" when their sister wouldn't wake up....

Or it could have been the O'Brien/Tanner child uncontrollably crying because she was wasn't well - sound travels extensively under certain atmospheric conditions, especially in the still of night.

Or it might no have happened as reported.  Astonishing no one else heard a young child crying hysterically for such a long period of time.

Madeleine: Book Sheds Light On Mystery Predator

Witnesses describe seeing a man staring at the McCann family's holiday apartment, as police search for a mystery predator.

08:49, UK,  Thursday 02 October 2014

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][email=?to=&subject=Shared%20from%20Sky%20News%3A%20Madeleine%3A%20Book%20Sheds%20Light%20On%20Mystery%20Predator&body=Shared%20from%20Sky%20News%3A%20Madeleine%3A%20Book%20Sheds%20Light%20On%20Mystery%20Predator%20http%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2F1331466%2Fmadeleine-book-sheds-light-on-mystery-predator] [/email]
By Martin Brunt, Crime Correspondent

A bogus charity collector was suspected of planning to abduct a young British girl hours before Madeleine McCann vanished, a new book reveals.
The intruder fled when he was caught in a villa close to the apartment from where three-year-old Madeleine disappeared in Praia da Luz, Portugal in 2007.

Author Anthony Summers told Sky News that a British mother answered her door to a stranger asking for donations to an orphanage.

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A mystery sexual predator is being investigated by Scotland Yard


"She soon realised he wasn't really looking at her, but was staring intently at her young daughter of three or four who was standing at her side, holding on to her skirt.

"She later saw that man watching her place during the afternoon. The next day she went upstairs to fetch something for a moment and as she started to come downstairs she saw what she thinks was the same man in the room where her child was and as soon as she started to come into the room he scarpered."

The woman was convinced the man intended to take her daughter and has been interviewed by Scotland Yard detectives investigating Madeleine's disappearance, said Mr Summers.

The incident in the Praia da Luz resort is recounted in Looking For Madeleine, published next week, by Mr Summers and his co-author Robbyn Swan.
The authors spent two years studying Portuguese police files and British documents for what they claim is the first objective book on the Madeleine case. They did not interview Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry McCann.

The book also reveals how another intruder got into the bed of a young girl in the nearby resort of Carvoeiro three years earlier.

The man fled after the girl and her sister woke up and asked if he was their daddy or uncle, said Ms Swan.

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She said: "What they noticed about this man was that he was wearing what seemed to be a surgical mask and he had wound laundry around his feet, seemingly to keep from making prints or leaving marks.



"He disappeared without interfering with the two girls."



A mystery sexual predator and three burglary suspects are the focus of the current Scotland Yard investigation.

The authors claim that the McCanns' holiday apartment, no 5a at the Ocean Club complex, was being watched in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.


Ms Swan said: "Two separate witnesses apparently saw a man, whom both described as very ugly or with a spotty or pimply face, staring fixedly at apartment 5a. They both described him being in the same position in the street.

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"That's combined with the fact that on the very day Madeleine disappeared, a lady visiting the apartment upstairs saw from her balcony a man behaving very oddly in the lane between the apartments and the pool.


"The man was going out of an adjacent gate, closing the gate repeatedly to see if it was creaky. He seemed to be looking around and generally acting very peculiarly before leaving."

Madeleine was nearly four when she vanished. She was sleeping in a room with her younger brother and sister in the apartment while her parents were dining with friends in the complex's poolside tapas bar nearby.

The McCanns said they had left the sliding patio door unlocked, while checking on the children every 30 minutes.

The authors say that Mrs McCann has said she was told by the then British consul Bill Henderson that before Madeleine vanished he was aware of a spate of child sex assaults along the Algarve coast and had discussed it with holiday companies.

Mr Summers said: "Had there been a warning note in the apartment, do we think the McCanns would have left the patio door unlocked on the night they went to the other side of the pool to have dinner away from their children?

"One would be tempted to think they would make sure everything was firmly locked up."

The McCanns' tour operators Mark Warner Ltd said its policy was not to comment. The Foreign Office told the authors it had no information to give them.
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If this case wasn't so serious it would be bloody laughable.

sandancer wrote:Sadly no protection for poor Madeleine , especially from those who were supposed to protect her, her parents !

Exactly, and even now some family members have to know something yet do nothing. I dont think we will ever know.

Just want to chip in that I think theres a very strong chance she died the night Mrs Fenn heard the crying. Claims of a 'dry-run' was concocted to help hide this. If the idea that the children were drugged came into it then twins asleep make sense & M not being given enough & having accident when groggy does too.
I think its also possible the 'suspicious' man Mrs
fenn (if she was the old lady) saw testing the gate was Gerry testing out ideas for the story.

aquila wrote:That's very interesting.

As far as I'm aware Mrs Fenn didn't hire out her apartment and neither did all of the owners of apartments within the complex.

It's not really clear who Mrs. Fenn hired to clean and service her apartment but there is no security firm as far as I know and the Ocean Club reception was for holidaymakers.

You make a valid point here plebs.

Yes aquila Mrs. Fenn could well have had a management contract with the firm as if often the case.  For a yearly fee cleaning services, maintenance etc would be looked after.

The other thing to remember is that Mrs. Fenn did not speak Portugese so it would have been far easier to ring reception and report an attemped robbery and let them deal with it. 
The same would apply if she needed a gp call out etc.

Verdi wrote:According to Carol Tranmer her niece, Pamela Fenn owned the apartment which was contained within the Ocean Club complex - as already known the particular block of apartments was situated outside the boundary of the Ocean Club secure area.  For this reason I doubt there was/is any security services for a private owner - whether or not the entire block of apartments was facilitated by the Ocean Club security (which I doubt as they stress the vulnerability of their accommodation situated outside the boundary walls), I shouldn't think the Ocean Club staff would object to assisting an elderly lady living alone.

Had Pamela Fenn reported an attempted burglary to the Ocean Club staff the week preceding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, I would expect to see some evidence of such contained in the PJ files along with the many other strangers reported, such as charity collectors.  The same I would expect if Mrs Fenn had reported an incident to the police but there is no evidence to verify an attempted burglary, nor the reporting of such.

I've yet to see a convincing argument that Mrs Fenn was the victim of a burglary or attempted burglary.  This is snatched from Carol Tranmer's witness statement which gives an idea of the layout of Pamela Fenn's apartment and in my opinion, shows how unlikely the alleged burglary story is..

DC1485'How long has she been there, in that apartment'

CT'When my uncle died, they had a villa close to Lagos, but when he died of Alzheimer's, she sold it to buy the site in Luz. She bought it because it was surrounded by people and it was easy for her to come and go as she did not want a big site. She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain, but I believe that there is one more apartment

DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'

CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.

DC1485'Third floor.

CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.

DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'

CT'You turn left.

DC1485'Sure.

CT'You walk, as it is a long corridor. It is open at the back part, it is an open corridor open in such a way one can see the front because the back part, if you can call that part which is turned toward the pool, but the front part of the building, is in truth the back of the same. Does this make sense'

DC1485'Yes, that makes sense.

CT'Because this is the entry, the only entry point and exit point, after this there is only the veranda and the terrace and nothing more. It has been there since 2003.


DC1485'Who else lives there'

CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.
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Not much scope there for a burglar!  If alleged burglar managed to reach Mrs Fenns's apartment and break-in, then she would have a lot more to say than a passing comment about an attempted burglary.  If alleged burglar didn't manage to enter the apartment - how did she know there was an attempted burglary?  Besides, professional burglars don't fanny about trying to enter through the conventional means - the front door.  They have ways in which to silently break the lock (if that be the right expression).  Under the circumstances I think the occupant would be very aware of a 'burglary' and very determined to do something positive about it.

Morning Verdi,

Thanks for pulling this out.  Much appreciated.  Dipped in and out of this thread for some time now.  I believe some subjects get re-gurgitated by shills to deflect, I think it's possible this is one of them.  Not one to cast aspersions on new members but I do think around certain topics there is a visible "bunching" of new members (including some with 2-300 posts) that suggests to me a concerted effort to deflect and divert attention and resources.  Thanks to the researchers / contributors on here we are often given valuable insights into events or occurrences that happened in the "distant" past.  Sometimes the revisiting of an old topic sheds new light on something seemingly overlooked, this is where the process of looking again over old information is invaluable. But I also believe that some topics start as musings / reviews and get amplified into huge discussions that draw in a lot of on lookers / deflectors and that's not always constructive.

When you combine crime specialist Martin Brunt, Summers & Swan, all that is missing is the "Revelation moment" from DCS Hamish Campbell and his assistant DCI Andy Redwood, along with the Operation Grange Remit, voila,"It was the Three Bungling paedophile Portugal Residents that Dunnit, G'vnor,with their mobile phones,also note the date 2014, twelve months after the Re-construction masterpiece from CrimeWatch, with Andy Pandy,Oy Sir Bernard any more genius theories you want to associate to Madeleine McCann's disappearance,er abduction?

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It would be interesting to know who you are referring to so people can be aware of who the "shills'" are. I've been following this topic but cant remember who Actually "regurgitated" Mrs Fenns statement. 
I personally havn't noticed anyone trying to deflect and divert attention. Not since Realist left. 
Difference of opinion, yes, but maybe you could enlighten me. It would be interesting to know.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Why do you think that this post is being regurgitated? 
It was started by the forum owner... ref the crying incident as per the title.  
So anything relevant to the "crying" incident is under discussion. 
I fail to see the relevance of your comment, so which post or part of are you referring to as being "regurgitated"???

Yes, come on Sar.  Name names.

Also what makes me think that Mrs. Fenn might have reported the incident to reception is this which I have snipped from a post by Hi-de-Ho on page 17 of this thread:

"The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.

According to the director of the hotel, "every month registries of robberies in the area are kept, and we therefore advise the service of a child-minder", but EVEN KNOWING THIS, Maddie's parents DID NOT ACCEPT it.


The director of the hotel mentions a registry of burglaries which are kept - maybe they drew this to Maddie's parents attention as there had been an attempted burglary at Mrs. Fenn's the week before.


We can also see that a registry is kept so just because it isn't in the pj files doesn't mean that it isn't recorded somewhere in the local police service files imo.

It is also possible that the PJ didn't take it any further as they thought that burglars were not involved?

The director was also reported to have said..

'that in the area there are "many inquisitive people, but they do not disrupt the routine of the place.

"We did not bear the blame for the disappearance of the little girl, it couldn't be said whose fault it was, but certainly not ours", assured the director and indicated that "THE PARENTS OF THE GIRL THAT NIGHT WERE VERY UNCONCERNED", and there was no reason they should not have requested the service of a child-minder.'

Extraordinary choice of words in my opinion.

That aside, firstly the director apparently said they keep a register of burglaries 'in the area' (why would they do that I ponder), my interpretation of that is in the region of PdL - not specifically the confines of the Ocean Club but more to the point - why did the Ocean Club management automatically associate a missing child with a burglary?  Why would they advise babysitting because of the remote possibility of a burglary?  There must be scores of reasons for not leaving very young children alone, particularly in a strange location, burglary hovering somewhere at the bottom of the list along side abduction.

According to Gerry, nothing of value was taken. And accordiing to his first statement all doors were locked. I believe that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].. and good morning to you - or is it afternoon?

I quite agree sar, think I've stressed before the need to adhere to the early days by focusing on what did or didn't happen, rather than what we think might have happened.  Can't avoid a degree of wandering (I do it myself being of a grasshopper type disposition) but I think it's always helpful to drag subjects back to reality and thus allay, hopefully, unnecessary distraction and/or misinformation - deliberate or otherwise.

Healthy debate is all about opposing views but there are times, I feel, when the subject matter is totally obscured by pure creation.  In the words of Gerry McCann..

"One good thing to come out of all of this is that there is so much in the press, nobody knows what is true, and what isn't."

Who wants to walk in his shoes - not me!

Maria wrote:According to Gerry, nothing of value was taken. And accordiing to his first statement all doors were locked. I believe that.

Nothing of value?  No of course not - only his precious little child!