John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by hogwash 27.11.15 21:46
MADELEINE: FULL DNA MATCH OF MISSING GIRL ‘UNDER CARPET IN CAR BOOT‘
The Daily Mail, 11 September 2007
Police to search church where McCanns prayed Tests suggest Madeleine ‘accidentally poisoned by overdose‘ Bugged phone calls convinced police Madeleine is dead Portuguese newspapers label Kate McCann a ‘violent‘ mother Madeleine: DNA in the McCanns‘ hire care boot is said to be a full match Kate and Gerry McCann face sensational new forensic claims linking them to the alleged killing of their daughter Madeleine.
Police sources in Portugal asserted that a full DNA profile matching the missing four–year–old had been recovered from the boot of the couple‘s hire car.
In addition, it was claimed that blood had been discovered underneath the boot‘s upholstery in the Renault Scenic – which was rented by the couple 25 days after their daughter vanished.
There have been suggestions that the profile could be a hair or a flake of skin – which could have been innocently transferred by the couple at any time.
On their return to Britain on Sunday, Mr McCann reiterated his insistence that they had "nothing" to do with the disappearance of their daughter.
Friends of the couple say they are victims of a campaign by the Portuguese to pressurise them into a confession.
But last night detectives were insisting that blood had been found in the boot.
The claim came on a dramatic day when: The McCanns found themselves under investigation from British police and social services to assess whether their twin son and daughter are at risk.
Portuguese police said they are on the verge of handing over a dossier of evidence to the public prosecutor accusing Mrs McCann of killing her daughter.
New forensic results from British scientists were said to be due in Portugal within days amid claims that toxicology tests suggest Madeleine was accidentally poisoned by some sort of overdose.
Police were preparing to search the church where the McCanns prayed for their daughter‘s safe return.
Portuguese newspapers labelled Kate McCann a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions".
Claims were made that bugged phone calls between the McCanns and their friends have convinced police their daughter is dead.
Scroll down for more... Gerry and Kate McCann insist they had ‘nothing‘ to do with the disappearance of their daughter Read more...
Hunt for Madeleine‘s body moves to church where McCanns prayed McCanns call in heavyweight lawyers to clear their name Now British police ask if twins are ‘at risk‘ Portuguese picture of ‘hysterical wife‘ Detectives trying to prove that Kate McCann killed her daughter have launched an astonishing smear campaign against her.
They painted the 3'–year–old doctor as a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions" and losing control.
The allegations were leaked to Portuguese newspapers hours after Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry left the country under a cloud of suspicion about the disappearance of four–year–old Madeleine.
Quoting police sources, the papers alleged that Mrs McCann became "visibly out of control" under questioning by police, and that witnesses had described her as "violent" and "aggressive" towards her children.
It was claimed that she routinely put Madeleine and the two–year–old twins to bed in the family‘s holiday apartment "while Gerry played tennis and lay by the pool".
The reports also quoted witnesses who have given statements to police. Pamela Fenn, who was in an apartment above the family on May 3 – the night Madeleine disappeared – is quoted as saying she believed Mrs McCann sometimes became violent and "out of control" in the room below.
She claimed that "the little girl‘s screams calling for her daddy were very audible".
Another witness is quoted as saying that Mrs McCann "seemed to have moments of aggressiveness towards her children" and that her husband, "though more absent, had more emotional control".
Mrs McCann is said to have strongly denied both these allegations in police interviews.
The damaging picture painted by Portuguese newspapers emerged as police sought to convince the public prosecutor that they have a strong enough case to charge Mrs McCann over the murder or accidental death of her daughter.
The McCanns have repeatedly insisted they are loving parents who had nothing to do with Madeleine‘s disappearance. They are convinced police are trying to frame them.
But the allegations, strongly denied by the family, risk poisoning public support for the couple and stopping donations to the "Find Madeleine" campaign they set up.
Portugal‘s secrecy laws prevent police from talking about the investigation, but the leaked material appears to contain specific information about interviews conducted with the McCanns last week.
It was claimed that Mrs McCann became "hysterical" at times during her 13 hours of interrogation and refused to reply to some of the questions.
It was alleged that she offered no explanation for why Madeleine‘s DNA appeared to have been found in a car the couple hired 25 days after she vanished.
Nor is she said to have given any satisfactory answer to whether she had slapped her daughter, or whether she sedated the children.
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The Daily Mail, 11 September 2007
Police to search church where McCanns prayed Tests suggest Madeleine ‘accidentally poisoned by overdose‘ Bugged phone calls convinced police Madeleine is dead Portuguese newspapers label Kate McCann a ‘violent‘ mother Madeleine: DNA in the McCanns‘ hire care boot is said to be a full match Kate and Gerry McCann face sensational new forensic claims linking them to the alleged killing of their daughter Madeleine.
Police sources in Portugal asserted that a full DNA profile matching the missing four–year–old had been recovered from the boot of the couple‘s hire car.
In addition, it was claimed that blood had been discovered underneath the boot‘s upholstery in the Renault Scenic – which was rented by the couple 25 days after their daughter vanished.
There have been suggestions that the profile could be a hair or a flake of skin – which could have been innocently transferred by the couple at any time.
On their return to Britain on Sunday, Mr McCann reiterated his insistence that they had "nothing" to do with the disappearance of their daughter.
Friends of the couple say they are victims of a campaign by the Portuguese to pressurise them into a confession.
But last night detectives were insisting that blood had been found in the boot.
The claim came on a dramatic day when: The McCanns found themselves under investigation from British police and social services to assess whether their twin son and daughter are at risk.
Portuguese police said they are on the verge of handing over a dossier of evidence to the public prosecutor accusing Mrs McCann of killing her daughter.
New forensic results from British scientists were said to be due in Portugal within days amid claims that toxicology tests suggest Madeleine was accidentally poisoned by some sort of overdose.
Police were preparing to search the church where the McCanns prayed for their daughter‘s safe return.
Portuguese newspapers labelled Kate McCann a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions".
Claims were made that bugged phone calls between the McCanns and their friends have convinced police their daughter is dead.
Scroll down for more... Gerry and Kate McCann insist they had ‘nothing‘ to do with the disappearance of their daughter Read more...
Hunt for Madeleine‘s body moves to church where McCanns prayed McCanns call in heavyweight lawyers to clear their name Now British police ask if twins are ‘at risk‘ Portuguese picture of ‘hysterical wife‘ Detectives trying to prove that Kate McCann killed her daughter have launched an astonishing smear campaign against her.
They painted the 3'–year–old doctor as a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions" and losing control.
The allegations were leaked to Portuguese newspapers hours after Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry left the country under a cloud of suspicion about the disappearance of four–year–old Madeleine.
Quoting police sources, the papers alleged that Mrs McCann became "visibly out of control" under questioning by police, and that witnesses had described her as "violent" and "aggressive" towards her children.
It was claimed that she routinely put Madeleine and the two–year–old twins to bed in the family‘s holiday apartment "while Gerry played tennis and lay by the pool".
The reports also quoted witnesses who have given statements to police. Pamela Fenn, who was in an apartment above the family on May 3 – the night Madeleine disappeared – is quoted as saying she believed Mrs McCann sometimes became violent and "out of control" in the room below.
She claimed that "the little girl‘s screams calling for her daddy were very audible".
Another witness is quoted as saying that Mrs McCann "seemed to have moments of aggressiveness towards her children" and that her husband, "though more absent, had more emotional control".
Mrs McCann is said to have strongly denied both these allegations in police interviews.
The damaging picture painted by Portuguese newspapers emerged as police sought to convince the public prosecutor that they have a strong enough case to charge Mrs McCann over the murder or accidental death of her daughter.
The McCanns have repeatedly insisted they are loving parents who had nothing to do with Madeleine‘s disappearance. They are convinced police are trying to frame them.
But the allegations, strongly denied by the family, risk poisoning public support for the couple and stopping donations to the "Find Madeleine" campaign they set up.
Portugal‘s secrecy laws prevent police from talking about the investigation, but the leaked material appears to contain specific information about interviews conducted with the McCanns last week.
It was claimed that Mrs McCann became "hysterical" at times during her 13 hours of interrogation and refused to reply to some of the questions.
It was alleged that she offered no explanation for why Madeleine‘s DNA appeared to have been found in a car the couple hired 25 days after she vanished.
Nor is she said to have given any satisfactory answer to whether she had slapped her daughter, or whether she sedated the children.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Guest 27.11.15 22:41
By all intents and purposes, Operation Grange has by-passed the issue of dog alerts and forensic evidence. Some say they are working covertly towards a prosecution but I say, if they be true, it's taking them a blooming long time to cut to the chase.dhpaul wrote:You can join the dots
I can join the dots
Lots of people can join the dots
The question is can SY join the dots?
Does it want to?
How much more information, intelligence and evidence do they need than that contained in the original PJ investigation?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Guest 27.11.15 22:54
Innocent till proven guilty? Why then did they flee Portugal - why didn't they stick around and assist the investigation, isn't the welfare of your own three year old daughter more important than anything else? IF totally innocent, would you worry about the local police trying to 'stitch you up' when you little child is missing?hogwash wrote:MADELEINE: FULL DNA MATCH OF MISSING GIRL ‘UNDER CARPET IN CAR BOOT‘
The Daily Mail, 11 September 2007
Police to search church where McCanns prayed Tests suggest Madeleine ‘accidentally poisoned by overdose‘ Bugged phone calls convinced police Madeleine is dead Portuguese newspapers label Kate McCann a ‘violent‘ mother Madeleine: DNA in the McCanns‘ hire care boot is said to be a full match Kate and Gerry McCann face sensational new forensic claims linking them to the alleged killing of their daughter Madeleine.
Police sources in Portugal asserted that a full DNA profile matching the missing four–year–old had been recovered from the boot of the couple‘s hire car.
In addition, it was claimed that blood had been discovered underneath the boot‘s upholstery in the Renault Scenic – which was rented by the couple 25 days after their daughter vanished.
There have been suggestions that the profile could be a hair or a flake of skin – which could have been innocently transferred by the couple at any time.
On their return to Britain on Sunday, Mr McCann reiterated his insistence that they had "nothing" to do with the disappearance of their daughter.
Friends of the couple say they are victims of a campaign by the Portuguese to pressurise them into a confession.
But last night detectives were insisting that blood had been found in the boot.
The claim came on a dramatic day when: The McCanns found themselves under investigation from British police and social services to assess whether their twin son and daughter are at risk.
Portuguese police said they are on the verge of handing over a dossier of evidence to the public prosecutor accusing Mrs McCann of killing her daughter.
New forensic results from British scientists were said to be due in Portugal within days amid claims that toxicology tests suggest Madeleine was accidentally poisoned by some sort of overdose.
Police were preparing to search the church where the McCanns prayed for their daughter‘s safe return.
Portuguese newspapers labelled Kate McCann a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions".
Claims were made that bugged phone calls between the McCanns and their friends have convinced police their daughter is dead.
Scroll down for more... Gerry and Kate McCann insist they had ‘nothing‘ to do with the disappearance of their daughter Read more...
Hunt for Madeleine‘s body moves to church where McCanns prayed McCanns call in heavyweight lawyers to clear their name Now British police ask if twins are ‘at risk‘ Portuguese picture of ‘hysterical wife‘ Detectives trying to prove that Kate McCann killed her daughter have launched an astonishing smear campaign against her.
They painted the 3'–year–old doctor as a violent mother prone to "hysterical reactions" and losing control.
The allegations were leaked to Portuguese newspapers hours after Mrs McCann and her husband Gerry left the country under a cloud of suspicion about the disappearance of four–year–old Madeleine.
Quoting police sources, the papers alleged that Mrs McCann became "visibly out of control" under questioning by police, and that witnesses had described her as "violent" and "aggressive" towards her children.
It was claimed that she routinely put Madeleine and the two–year–old twins to bed in the family‘s holiday apartment "while Gerry played tennis and lay by the pool".
The reports also quoted witnesses who have given statements to police. Pamela Fenn, who was in an apartment above the family on May 3 – the night Madeleine disappeared – is quoted as saying she believed Mrs McCann sometimes became violent and "out of control" in the room below.
She claimed that "the little girl‘s screams calling for her daddy were very audible".
Another witness is quoted as saying that Mrs McCann "seemed to have moments of aggressiveness towards her children" and that her husband, "though more absent, had more emotional control".
Mrs McCann is said to have strongly denied both these allegations in police interviews.
The damaging picture painted by Portuguese newspapers emerged as police sought to convince the public prosecutor that they have a strong enough case to charge Mrs McCann over the murder or accidental death of her daughter.
The McCanns have repeatedly insisted they are loving parents who had nothing to do with Madeleine‘s disappearance. They are convinced police are trying to frame them.
But the allegations, strongly denied by the family, risk poisoning public support for the couple and stopping donations to the "Find Madeleine" campaign they set up.
Portugal‘s secrecy laws prevent police from talking about the investigation, but the leaked material appears to contain specific information about interviews conducted with the McCanns last week.
It was claimed that Mrs McCann became "hysterical" at times during her 13 hours of interrogation and refused to reply to some of the questions.
It was alleged that she offered no explanation for why Madeleine‘s DNA appeared to have been found in a car the couple hired 25 days after she vanished.
Nor is she said to have given any satisfactory answer to whether she had slapped her daughter, or whether she sedated the children.
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Timing is a bit coincidental isn't it? Bad news originating from forensic analysis - McCann family do a runner back to Blighty - not so bad, or at least inconclusive, forensic reports. I smell something rotten.
Hogwash!
NB: Another example of the negative UK press reportage.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by sammi1967 28.11.15 12:04
I've never read that article from the Daily Mail before. It's been a long time since I read through the PJ police files but I don't recall ever reading any statements by a witness that accused KM of being violent or aggressive towards her children. Interesting. Neither had I heard that she had lost control during the police questioning. Is there some more information available on this somewhere?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by worriedmum 28.11.15 20:39
Chanting F***ING TOSSER ?sammi1967 wrote:I've never read that article from the Daily Mail before. It's been a long time since I read through the PJ police files but I don't recall ever reading any statements by a witness that accused KM of being violent or aggressive towards her children. Interesting. Neither had I heard that she had lost control during the police questioning. Is there some more information available on this somewhere?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by hogwash 28.11.15 20:49
Didn't she also say she broke a bed? That would take some doing.
She's obviously got a temper.
She's obviously got a temper.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by sammi1967 28.11.15 21:25
Yes but these are things that KM said she did. The article is referring to witnesses who have stated that she was violent and aggressive. I was wondering if there was any info on who they may be as I don't remember ever reading anything like that from a witness.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by hogwash 28.11.15 21:28
Her temper might also explain the blood in the apartment that was subsequently transferred to the hire car.
I still don't understand the hair without roots that was found in the boot of the car. Why would they cut her hair?
I still don't understand the hair without roots that was found in the boot of the car. Why would they cut her hair?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Guest 12.06.16 14:06
Thanks to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] over yonder for posting up this old Daily Mail report, I've discovered something of great interest to me. In the past I've been shot down (not here) for drawing attention to Sir Alec Jeffreys, the great pioneer of DNA fingerprinting, who just happens to be based at Leicester University, the same location that houses Dr. Gerald McCann - early days in his illustrious career, Sir Alec even spent time in Amsterdam but that's no doubt only coincidence.
Taking into consideration the somewhat dubious results of forensic testing undertaken by the UK's renowned now defunct FSS and the claim made by McCann representatives about an independent forensic examination of the Renault Scenic hired car, held in storage by a source close to the McCanns, I have wondered if the influence of Sir Alec Jeffreys was called upon at some stage. I don't believe for a second that he doesn't know Dr McCann.
Examination of the car, I recall reading, was to be carried out by an accredited forensic science laboratory sanctioned by the Home Office (only going on memory so that could be rumour) - lo and behold, as a result of NickE's post about Pamela Fenn, I came across this which I don't think I've seen before..
The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case.
It has been reported that DNA evidence with a 100% match to Madeleine was found in the car, but this has been played down by Portuguese police.
In an exclusive interview with the BBC's Newsnight programme, Sir Alec said there could be a potential problem in assigning a profile to Madeleine given that all other members of her family would have been in the car.
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Taking into consideration the somewhat dubious results of forensic testing undertaken by the UK's renowned now defunct FSS and the claim made by McCann representatives about an independent forensic examination of the Renault Scenic hired car, held in storage by a source close to the McCanns, I have wondered if the influence of Sir Alec Jeffreys was called upon at some stage. I don't believe for a second that he doesn't know Dr McCann.
Examination of the car, I recall reading, was to be carried out by an accredited forensic science laboratory sanctioned by the Home Office (only going on memory so that could be rumour) - lo and behold, as a result of NickE's post about Pamela Fenn, I came across this which I don't think I've seen before..
The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case.
It has been reported that DNA evidence with a 100% match to Madeleine was found in the car, but this has been played down by Portuguese police.
In an exclusive interview with the BBC's Newsnight programme, Sir Alec said there could be a potential problem in assigning a profile to Madeleine given that all other members of her family would have been in the car.
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why would they cut her hair??
by justabout 12.06.16 15:26
in reply to hogwash,why would they cut her hair??maybe to make her look like a little boy??confusion is good?and /or trying to remove evidence of sedation,maybe?just throwing it out there.mods please move if I,ve posted on wrong thread,very rarely post as you know but always reading and this thought has been brewing for a long time as a possible way they,ve got away with it,so to speak.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by pennylane 13.06.16 12:15
I would take that with a large dose of skepticism as it was a claim made be the now defunct Birmingham FSS who did the jawdropping U-turn, and managed to (ahem) destroy all the hairs during the testing. I am suspicious that not only did some hairs have roots, but they showed evidence of sedation, and perhaps also that they came from a dead body. (jmo).hogwash wrote:Her temper might also explain the blood in the apartment that was subsequently transferred to the hire car.
I still don't understand the hair without roots that was found in the boot of the car. Why would they cut her hair?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Liz Eagles 13.06.16 12:28
Has it ever been clearly stated by anyone in authority that there is specific DNA for Madeleine McCann?
There were two 'sightings' in different parts of New Zealand where the same child was reported on two separate occasions and proved not to be Madeleine.
There was the disappearance of Riley Ann Sawyers in USA where US police allegedly sought the DNA of Madeleine McCann - why the US police could possibly think it was Madeleine, is quite astounding imo for all manner of common sense reasons.
There were two 'sightings' in different parts of New Zealand where the same child was reported on two separate occasions and proved not to be Madeleine.
There was the disappearance of Riley Ann Sawyers in USA where US police allegedly sought the DNA of Madeleine McCann - why the US police could possibly think it was Madeleine, is quite astounding imo for all manner of common sense reasons.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Roxyroo 13.06.16 22:36
I've thought this before too, how on earth do they expect to identify anyone as her, if by some miracle she was ever found. Is there any DNA specific to her AT ALL?aquila wrote:Has it ever been clearly stated by anyone in authority that there is specific DNA for Madeleine McCann?
There were two 'sightings' in different parts of New Zealand where the same child was reported on two separate occasions and proved not to be Madeleine.
There was the disappearance of Riley Ann Sawyers in USA where US police allegedly sought the DNA of Madeleine McCann - why the US police could possibly think it was Madeleine, is quite astounding imo for all manner of common sense reasons.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by worriedmum 14.06.16 0:01
It's okay, she's got a distinctive fleck in her eye...hasn't she?Roxyroo wrote:I've thought this before too, how on earth do they expect to identify anyone as her, if by some miracle she was ever found. Is there any DNA specific to her AT ALL?aquila wrote:Has it ever been clearly stated by anyone in authority that there is specific DNA for Madeleine McCann?
There were two 'sightings' in different parts of New Zealand where the same child was reported on two separate occasions and proved not to be Madeleine.
There was the disappearance of Riley Ann Sawyers in USA where US police allegedly sought the DNA of Madeleine McCann - why the US police could possibly think it was Madeleine, is quite astounding imo for all manner of common sense reasons.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Guest 14.06.16 1:51
If you refer to forensic samples harvested from the crime scene in the early stages of the official criminal investigation by the PJ - then NO!aquila wrote:Has it ever been clearly stated by anyone in authority that there is specific DNA for Madeleine McCann?
There were two 'sightings' in different parts of New Zealand where the same child was reported on two separate occasions and proved not to be Madeleine.
There was the disappearance of Riley Ann Sawyers in USA where US police allegedly sought the DNA of Madeleine McCann - why the US police could possibly think it was Madeleine, is quite astounding imo for all manner of common sense reasons.
If you refer to a profile of Madeleine's DNA - then according to John Lowe's report YES! Apparently from a pillow case collected by someone by some means from the McCanns Rothley family home and a blood spot in a cardboard frame collected from who knows where.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by joyce1938 14.06.16 12:40
Have no proof where the blood spot came from ,but it was normal to take blood test and place on a cardboard from all new borns in hospital. It was used to detect some condition ,dont recall what . I think it was beachy used to be on sites and was very good with the DNA thing. The pillow case was said to be the same as blood spot. Think it was taken as read ,ofcourse some didn't want to believe it,we might know one day .joyce1938
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by sallypelt 24.03.17 18:54
Saw this on Twitter feed:
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by JohnyT 24.03.17 23:17
Sorry can't read it
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by sallypelt 24.03.17 23:21
I can't make it any bigger because it won't let me post it if it is bigger. You will have to put it on magnificationJohnyT wrote:Sorry can't read it
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Jill Havern 24.03.17 23:24
It's actually posted on this forum somewhere in Latest News, I had a look for it earlier cos I can't read it either!
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Jill Havern 24.03.17 23:27
If you can access this link there's a pdf
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A wise man once said:
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Jill Havern 25.03.17 10:53
Here's the article from the pdf:
Explanation of the DNA Analysis as detailed in the forensic report by John Lowe
Background
We all have 2 copies of every gene/stretch of DNA – 1 inherited maternally, the other paternally.
At some genetic sites, there are short, repetitive motifs called markers. Each marker will contain a variable number of repeated motifs. In diagrammatic form, a marker pair at any one site, could be represented like this, where the letters, ACGT, are the 4 bases which make up DNA (AAGTC is an arbitrary motif);
Maternally inherited marker AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC| 8
Paternally inherited marker AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC| 4
So, at this marker site, the repeat pair values would be read as 8,4
This would be shown as 2 peaks on a readout, at that site with relative heights on a compter-generated graph as 8 and 4.
A second site could be represented as follows (where CCGTCTA is an arbitrary motif);
Maternally inherited marker CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| 9
Paternally inherited marker CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| 5
So, at this second site, the computer readout would be 9,5
As you can see, the exact sequence of the DNA is irrelevant. It is just the number of motif repeats that is of significance. Therefore, any reference to a small chance of errors occurring during amplification of the DNA ie bulking up Low Copy Number (LCN) by copying a small amount of starting material, is irrelevant. The actual DNA code (ACGT) is of no interest, as long as the repeats of varying lengths, are present. Even if say a C is erroneously copied as an A, G or T (which is how errors can occur with individual letters) it does not affect the validity of this technique. It is akin to spelling the word “THERE” of 5 letters long and erroneously transcribing it as “THEIR”. The second spelling has a different meaning but all we are looking at here, is, how long is the word and how many times is it repeated? We don’t care about the meaning for this kind of analysis.
Creating profiles using the technique
Because the number of repeats each of us has at each of these sites is random, we can produce a unique profile, in terms of pairs of repeat values, over several sites.
If we were to look at 10 sites, with 2 values at each site, we will have 20 values, in pairs and that is an important thing to bear in mind. The power of the technique in terms of producing UNIQUE profiles is that we are not looking at 20 random sites giving 20 random values, but 10 pairs of values at 10 sites.
As touched on earlier, the computers that produce the data, do so by giving “peak heights” according to the length of the repeat. So a repeat length of 2, has a peak height of 2 units, a repeat value of 3, a peak height of 3 units etc., etc. These are the peaks referred to by Lowe.
The table below shows the way a unique profile of a child would be inherited from a given set of parental markers. The full set of 20 markers, in terms of 10 pairs of 2 values can be called the inherited genotype or genetic profile.
In the table below, the values I’ve listed at line “possible inherited marker sets at each site (child)”, are derived by combining each maternal value and with each paternal value in turn, resulting in 4 possible combinations. I have used arbitrary numbers for illustrative purposes.
NB at marker site no.8, I’ve shown how, if both parents possess the same number of repeats at a given site, there will be a 1 in 4 chance that a child could inherit the same number twice. A child inheriting the same number of repeats from both parents, in this case 9, will produce a profile that appears with only one peak at that site and in this example, it will have a height of 9 units. Cf the Lowe report where he explains that the DNA from the Rothley pillowcase (Madeleine’s control sample) yielded an apparent complete profile of 19 markers, not 20, because at one site, there was an inheritance of the same number of repeats from both Kate and Gerry. In fact, there would have been 2 peaks, superimposed on each other so appear as 1. Therefore, when Lowe says there were 19 markers this should strictly be described as 20 but 19 in terms of peaks.
Looking at the above, to produce a unique genetic profile for an offspring during reproduction, we randomly take 1 set of marker values (of the 4 we have to choose from) at each site. I’ve randomly taken one marker set at each site to produce an example of a profile shown below. It can then be seen that if we were to analyse these marker sets, we would get 2 peaks at each site on a readout, except site no. 8 in my example below, because of the inheritance pattern explained earlier. The probability of inheriting any one marker pair from a possibility of 4 options shown in the table above, is 1 in 4 or 0.25
What is the probability that the crime scene DNA described as having a 15/19 marker match did or did not come from Madeleine?
The probability of inheritance of any single full genotype at all 10 sites, from one set of parents = 0.25 multiplied by 0.25, 10 times, so (0.25)10 = 0.00000095 which is just over 1 million to 1.
Therefore, there are just over 1 million permutations of inheritance of 10 pairs of markers from any 2 parents. It’s a very powerful technique because we look at marker PAIR values. Lowe says that we all share these repeats and if you were to look at any one person’s DNA, you would find a selection of these numbers. That is true, but the chances of any value represented along with its paired value at any single site is not at all likely. As you can see, even inheriting the same pair values at one site among siblings is a 1 in 4 chance. Looking at the population as a whole, variation in repeat values at each site is much larger.
According to Lowe, the profile of the crime scene DNA yielded 15 markers that were identical to that of Madeleine’s pillowcase DNA. He says 15/19 because 4 markers were missing due to the DNA being degraded. Because the analysis is done as pair values at each site and you can’t have half a site nor half a pair value, it should be 16/20. The pillowcase DNA did have 20 markers which looked like only 19 as described above. If you look along the profile in the table above, reading from site 1 to 8, you will see that in fact, by column 8, you have 16 markers even though 2 are identical.
In this case, the probability of inheriting those same 8 pairs of markers at those sites from the same parents is (0.25)8= 0.000015 or 66.66 thousand to 1 chance.
What is the probability that a random stranger, not related to Madeleine, deposited DNA with those exact same 16 marker pairs over the 8 sites with a complete match to Madeleine? Many million to 1.
Explanation of the DNA Analysis as detailed in the forensic report by John Lowe
Background
We all have 2 copies of every gene/stretch of DNA – 1 inherited maternally, the other paternally.
At some genetic sites, there are short, repetitive motifs called markers. Each marker will contain a variable number of repeated motifs. In diagrammatic form, a marker pair at any one site, could be represented like this, where the letters, ACGT, are the 4 bases which make up DNA (AAGTC is an arbitrary motif);
Maternally inherited marker AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC| 8
Paternally inherited marker AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC|AAGTC| 4
So, at this marker site, the repeat pair values would be read as 8,4
This would be shown as 2 peaks on a readout, at that site with relative heights on a compter-generated graph as 8 and 4.
A second site could be represented as follows (where CCGTCTA is an arbitrary motif);
Maternally inherited marker CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| 9
Paternally inherited marker CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| CCGTCTA| 5
So, at this second site, the computer readout would be 9,5
As you can see, the exact sequence of the DNA is irrelevant. It is just the number of motif repeats that is of significance. Therefore, any reference to a small chance of errors occurring during amplification of the DNA ie bulking up Low Copy Number (LCN) by copying a small amount of starting material, is irrelevant. The actual DNA code (ACGT) is of no interest, as long as the repeats of varying lengths, are present. Even if say a C is erroneously copied as an A, G or T (which is how errors can occur with individual letters) it does not affect the validity of this technique. It is akin to spelling the word “THERE” of 5 letters long and erroneously transcribing it as “THEIR”. The second spelling has a different meaning but all we are looking at here, is, how long is the word and how many times is it repeated? We don’t care about the meaning for this kind of analysis.
Creating profiles using the technique
Because the number of repeats each of us has at each of these sites is random, we can produce a unique profile, in terms of pairs of repeat values, over several sites.
If we were to look at 10 sites, with 2 values at each site, we will have 20 values, in pairs and that is an important thing to bear in mind. The power of the technique in terms of producing UNIQUE profiles is that we are not looking at 20 random sites giving 20 random values, but 10 pairs of values at 10 sites.
As touched on earlier, the computers that produce the data, do so by giving “peak heights” according to the length of the repeat. So a repeat length of 2, has a peak height of 2 units, a repeat value of 3, a peak height of 3 units etc., etc. These are the peaks referred to by Lowe.
The table below shows the way a unique profile of a child would be inherited from a given set of parental markers. The full set of 20 markers, in terms of 10 pairs of 2 values can be called the inherited genotype or genetic profile.
In the table below, the values I’ve listed at line “possible inherited marker sets at each site (child)”, are derived by combining each maternal value and with each paternal value in turn, resulting in 4 possible combinations. I have used arbitrary numbers for illustrative purposes.
NB at marker site no.8, I’ve shown how, if both parents possess the same number of repeats at a given site, there will be a 1 in 4 chance that a child could inherit the same number twice. A child inheriting the same number of repeats from both parents, in this case 9, will produce a profile that appears with only one peak at that site and in this example, it will have a height of 9 units. Cf the Lowe report where he explains that the DNA from the Rothley pillowcase (Madeleine’s control sample) yielded an apparent complete profile of 19 markers, not 20, because at one site, there was an inheritance of the same number of repeats from both Kate and Gerry. In fact, there would have been 2 peaks, superimposed on each other so appear as 1. Therefore, when Lowe says there were 19 markers this should strictly be described as 20 but 19 in terms of peaks.
| Marker Site | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | ||||||
| Maternal repeat lengths (Maternal genotype) | 8,4 | 5,9 | 6,8 | 3,7 | 5,6 | 8,4 | 4,7 | 9,4 | 3,8 | 5,4 | ||||||
| Paternal repeat lengths (paternal genotype) | 7,9 | 4,3 | 9,3 | 6,4 | 8,9 | 5,5 | 3,8 | 9,3 | 7,6 | 3,7 | ||||||
| Possible inherited marker sets at each site (child) | 8,7 8,9 4,7 4,9 | 5,4 5,3 9,4 9,3 | 6,9 6,3 8,9 8,3 | 3,6 3,4 7,6 7,4 | 5,8 5,9 6,8 6,9 | 8,5 8,5 4,5 4,5 | 4,3 4,8 7,3 7,8 | 9,9 9,3 4,9 4,3 | 3,7 3,6 8,7 6,8 | 5,3 5,7 4,3 4,7 |
| Randomly inherited profile | 4,7 | 9,3 | 6,9 | 3,4 | 6,8 | 4,5 | 4,8 | 9,9 | 8,6 | 5,7 |
| Probability of inheriting that particular marker pair | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 |
What is the probability that the crime scene DNA described as having a 15/19 marker match did or did not come from Madeleine?
The probability of inheritance of any single full genotype at all 10 sites, from one set of parents = 0.25 multiplied by 0.25, 10 times, so (0.25)10 = 0.00000095 which is just over 1 million to 1.
Therefore, there are just over 1 million permutations of inheritance of 10 pairs of markers from any 2 parents. It’s a very powerful technique because we look at marker PAIR values. Lowe says that we all share these repeats and if you were to look at any one person’s DNA, you would find a selection of these numbers. That is true, but the chances of any value represented along with its paired value at any single site is not at all likely. As you can see, even inheriting the same pair values at one site among siblings is a 1 in 4 chance. Looking at the population as a whole, variation in repeat values at each site is much larger.
According to Lowe, the profile of the crime scene DNA yielded 15 markers that were identical to that of Madeleine’s pillowcase DNA. He says 15/19 because 4 markers were missing due to the DNA being degraded. Because the analysis is done as pair values at each site and you can’t have half a site nor half a pair value, it should be 16/20. The pillowcase DNA did have 20 markers which looked like only 19 as described above. If you look along the profile in the table above, reading from site 1 to 8, you will see that in fact, by column 8, you have 16 markers even though 2 are identical.
In this case, the probability of inheriting those same 8 pairs of markers at those sites from the same parents is (0.25)8= 0.000015 or 66.66 thousand to 1 chance.
What is the probability that a random stranger, not related to Madeleine, deposited DNA with those exact same 16 marker pairs over the 8 sites with a complete match to Madeleine? Many million to 1.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Guest 25.03.17 11:18
@GeG
That's not the same a Sallypelt's pasted tweet which is much easier to understand and even more damming
That's not the same a Sallypelt's pasted tweet which is much easier to understand and even more damming
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Jill Havern 25.03.17 11:21
Yes, I've messaged Janine to find the whole post...bear with me.
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A wise man once said:
"Be careful who you let on to your ship,
because some people will sink the whole ship
just because they can't be the Captain."
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Jill Havern 25.03.17 11:27
Here we go:
Courtesy of Janine Bresnick - I am a geneticist and spoke about this on another site. The markers are highly variable stretches of DNA which differ person to person (evolutionary mutations), so getting the sequences of multiple regions or markers allow a unique profile or genetic fingerprint to be obtained for someone. The forensic science service looked at 19 regions of DNA (or 19 markers) and 15 belonged to Madeleine not anyone else. They found this out by comparing the same DNA regions taken from samples from her pillowcase (control sample) with the DNA extracted from blood samples retrieved from under the apartment floor tiles. The result, 15/19 markers which belong to Madeleine, can make it seem that 4/19 did not, but this is not the case. In fact, the report says the DNA markers at those 4 regions were not of sufficient quality to analyse because that DNA was degraded, Therefore the markers apparently "missing", are not, nor do they belong to anyone else, nor is it contamination etc, it just couldn't be analysed. In fact it would be very unlikely they would not belong to Madeleine if they were accessible to analysis. With these facts on the table AND the fact that the samples containing this DNA were isolated from places indicated by 2 forensic dogs who have never before been wrong (it's an exact science, not like "sometimes they're wrong and sometimes they're right" they were proven right because they indicated exactly where the bodily fluids were), because Eddie the cadaver dog indicated the same places where a dead body had been placed, it is, unfortunately, inconceivable that Madeleine is still alive. There is no evidence AT ALL that substantiates an abduction, if there is, could someone please post it.
Courtesy of Janine Bresnick - I am a geneticist and spoke about this on another site. The markers are highly variable stretches of DNA which differ person to person (evolutionary mutations), so getting the sequences of multiple regions or markers allow a unique profile or genetic fingerprint to be obtained for someone. The forensic science service looked at 19 regions of DNA (or 19 markers) and 15 belonged to Madeleine not anyone else. They found this out by comparing the same DNA regions taken from samples from her pillowcase (control sample) with the DNA extracted from blood samples retrieved from under the apartment floor tiles. The result, 15/19 markers which belong to Madeleine, can make it seem that 4/19 did not, but this is not the case. In fact, the report says the DNA markers at those 4 regions were not of sufficient quality to analyse because that DNA was degraded, Therefore the markers apparently "missing", are not, nor do they belong to anyone else, nor is it contamination etc, it just couldn't be analysed. In fact it would be very unlikely they would not belong to Madeleine if they were accessible to analysis. With these facts on the table AND the fact that the samples containing this DNA were isolated from places indicated by 2 forensic dogs who have never before been wrong (it's an exact science, not like "sometimes they're wrong and sometimes they're right" they were proven right because they indicated exactly where the bodily fluids were), because Eddie the cadaver dog indicated the same places where a dead body had been placed, it is, unfortunately, inconceivable that Madeleine is still alive. There is no evidence AT ALL that substantiates an abduction, if there is, could someone please post it.
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A wise man once said:
"Be careful who you let on to your ship,
because some people will sink the whole ship
just because they can't be the Captain."
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by pennylane 25.03.17 11:36
Get'emGonçalo wrote:
Courtesy of Janine Bresnick - I am a geneticist and spoke about this on another site. The markers are highly variable stretches of DNA which differ person to person (evolutionary mutations), so getting the sequences of multiple regions or markers allow a unique profile or genetic fingerprint to be obtained for someone. The forensic science service looked at 19 regions of DNA (or 19 markers) and 15 belonged to Madeleine not anyone else. They found this out by comparing the same DNA regions taken from samples from her pillowcase (control sample) with the DNA extracted from blood samples retrieved from under the apartment floor tiles. The result, 15/19 markers which belong to Madeleine, can make it seem that 4/19 did not, but this is not the case. In fact, the report says the DNA markers at those 4 regions were not of sufficient quality to analyse because that DNA was degraded, Therefore the markers apparently "missing", are not, nor do they belong to anyone else, nor is it contamination etc, it just couldn't be analysed. In fact it would be very unlikely they would not belong to Madeleine if they were accessible to analysis. With these facts on the table AND the fact that the samples containing this DNA were isolated from places indicated by 2 forensic dogs who have never before been wrong (it's an exact science, not like "sometimes they're wrong and sometimes they're right" they were proven right because they indicated exactly where the bodily fluids were), because Eddie the cadaver dog indicated the same places where a dead body had been placed, it is, unfortunately, inconceivable that Madeleine is still alive. There is no evidence AT ALL that substantiates an abduction, if there is, could someone please post it.
The Drs McCann will find this geneticist and his scientific analysis very hurtful and unhelpful!
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Guest 25.03.17 12:26
You know what they say - 'a miss is as good as a mile'.
My question is and always has been, why out of all the forensic samples submitted to the UK Forensic Science Service, did not one single sample produce a meaningful result after analysis?
Technically it can be said that 'forensic' [sic] dogs are an exact science but in reality it's not strictly true - they do sometimes give false alerts, get it wrong so to speak. Not their fault - they only follow their nose.
Whatever way you look at it, the FSS results were inconclusive. I really can't see anything miraculous occurring to change that unless cuddlecat has a secret to tell!
My question is and always has been, why out of all the forensic samples submitted to the UK Forensic Science Service, did not one single sample produce a meaningful result after analysis?
Technically it can be said that 'forensic' [sic] dogs are an exact science but in reality it's not strictly true - they do sometimes give false alerts, get it wrong so to speak. Not their fault - they only follow their nose.
Whatever way you look at it, the FSS results were inconclusive. I really can't see anything miraculous occurring to change that unless cuddlecat has a secret to tell!
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Jill Havern 25.03.17 12:35
Don't forget Gordon Brown's interference with the FSS.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by ChippyM 25.03.17 12:43
I thought the main reason the DNA analysis was inconclusive was that Madeleine shares DNA with her family and we know the family were in that car.
So instead of it being virtually impossible that a strangers dna would make up a match, we have the possibility that people she shares 25% and 50% of her dna with made that sample instead of her.
The question is how likely is that to occur? John Lowe's analysis seems evasive and misleading (why mention a lab person's DNA?) and why not test the 'madeliene sample' against the family members to say whether any of them were NOT in that sample?
So instead of it being virtually impossible that a strangers dna would make up a match, we have the possibility that people she shares 25% and 50% of her dna with made that sample instead of her.
The question is how likely is that to occur? John Lowe's analysis seems evasive and misleading (why mention a lab person's DNA?) and why not test the 'madeliene sample' against the family members to say whether any of them were NOT in that sample?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS
by Guest 25.03.17 12:56
I think is generally known as baffling you with scienceChippyM wrote:I thought the main reason the DNA analysis was inconclusive was that Madeleine shares DNA with her family and we know the family were in that car.
So instead of it being virtually impossible that a strangers dna would make up a match, we have the possibility that people she shares 25% and 50% of her dna with made that sample instead of her.
The question is how likely is that to occur? John Lowe's analysis seems evasive and misleading (why mention a lab person's DNA?) and why not test the 'madeliene sample' against the family members to say whether any of them were NOT in that sample?
.
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Similar topics» John Lowe Report - Forensics
» Explanation of the DNA Analysis as detailed in the forensic report by John Lowe
» Madeleine McCann: Explanation of the DNA Analysis as detailed in the forensic report by John Lowe
» Philomena McCann: "..one greedy, unscrupulous character.."
» MADDIE MCCANN MAY HAVE BEEN WATCHED FROM BALCONY, WITNESS TELLS YARD
» Explanation of the DNA Analysis as detailed in the forensic report by John Lowe
» Madeleine McCann: Explanation of the DNA Analysis as detailed in the forensic report by John Lowe
» Philomena McCann: "..one greedy, unscrupulous character.."
» MADDIE MCCANN MAY HAVE BEEN WATCHED FROM BALCONY, WITNESS TELLS YARD
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