Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: British Police / Government Interference :: 'Operation Grange' set up by ex-Prime Minister David Cameron
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
BlueBag wrote:Well they might find traces of New Zealand sheep or tractor oil or both.Synes wrote:Any curtains hanging in the apartment would have collected a ton of DNA over time from various inhabitants, visitors, cleaners, charity collectors, I doubt very much they would be washed often, would be like looking for an abductor needle in a haystack..
Anything is possible.
Or New Zealand wine even
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
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Snifferdog- Posts : 1008
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Talking of DNA, here is a vid. Candyfloss posted on this site in 2012 - Martin Brunt and a DNA expert plus other questions raised in 2007.
I hadn't seen it before and I don't remember hearing before that Martin Brunt had actually paced out the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment. I found the video very interesting.
Edited to add link
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I hadn't seen it before and I don't remember hearing before that Martin Brunt had actually paced out the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment. I found the video very interesting.
Edited to add link
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
palm tree wrote:To me that says if they have found Madeleine's blood, then he'd say she had a nose bleed, depending on what they've found
IMO
Very true, but it would lead right into a few very nice, justifiable questions which would require a definitive answer from K&G and ones which answering "no comment" would not wash...
Q1) "So, can you explain why M had a nosebleed behind the sofa and more importantly, why there were no traces of blood found on the front of the sofa where she would have been sitting?"
Probable answer "errm, i have no idea, maybe she was playing hide and seek or something, i don't know, it doesn't prove anything"
Q2) "As a responsible parent, you would have comforted your child when she called to you to inform you that she had a nosebleed, would you not? As a concerned parent, the anguish of your child bleeding would be a memorable occasion, would it not? I'll ask you again, can you recall M having a nosebleed?
Repeat question 1... watch for squirming and 'eeerr,, errmm, well, errr'
Q3) "So, if neither of you can answer how or why this supposed nosebleed occoured behind the sofa, can you explain how a 3 year old girl managed to have a nosebleed but not get any blood on her clothes, the back of her hands (wiping blood from the nose), the front of the sofa (drip or sneeze) and only managed to get blood behind the sofa?
Q4) "Who do you suggest cleaned up after the mystery nosebleed if niether of you did?"
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Exactly woodforthetrees, one thing I can't get out of my head is GA in an interview (God knows where now though) is that he had said the fluids found were consistent with a broken neck, horrible, I know, but would like to see that again. This man is not stupid.woodforthetrees wrote:palm tree wrote:To me that says if they have found Madeleine's blood, then he'd say she had a nose bleed, depending on what they've found
IMO
Very true, but it would lead right into a few very nice, justifiable questions which would require a definitive answer from K&G and ones which answering "no comment" would not wash...
Q1) "So, can you explain why M had a nosebleed behind the sofa and more importantly, why there were no traces of blood found on the front of the sofa where she would have been sitting?"
Probable answer "errm, i have no idea, maybe she was playing hide and seek or something, i don't know, it doesn't prove anything"
Q2) "As a responsible parent, you would have comforted your child when she called to you to inform you that she had a nosebleed, would you not? As a concerned parent, the anguish of your child bleeding would be a memorable occasion, would it not? I'll ask you again, can you recall M having a nosebleed?
Repeat question 1... watch for squirming and 'eeerr,, errmm, well, errr'
Q3) "So, if neither of you can answer how or why this supposed nosebleed occoured behind the sofa, can you explain how a 3 year old girl managed to have a nosebleed but not get any blood on her clothes, the back of her hands (wiping blood from the nose), the front of the sofa (drip or sneeze) and only managed to get blood behind the sofa?
Q4) "Who do you suggest cleaned up after the mystery nosebleed if niehter of you did?"
IMO
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Spinal fluid?
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Snifferdog- Posts : 1008
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Hello palm tree,palm tree wrote:Exactly woodforthetrees, one thing I can't get out of my head is GA in an interview (God knows where now though) is that he had said the fluids found were consistent with a broken neck, horrible, I know, but would like to see that again. This man is not stupid.woodforthetrees wrote:palm tree wrote:To me that says if they have found Madeleine's blood, then he'd say she had a nose bleed, depending on what they've found
IMO
Very true, but it would lead right into a few very nice, justifiable questions which would require a definitive answer from K&G and ones which answering "no comment" would not wash...
Q1) "So, can you explain why M had a nosebleed behind the sofa and more importantly, why there were no traces of blood found on the front of the sofa where she would have been sitting?"
Probable answer "errm, i have no idea, maybe she was playing hide and seek or something, i don't know, it doesn't prove anything"
Q2) "As a responsible parent, you would have comforted your child when she called to you to inform you that she had a nosebleed, would you not? As a concerned parent, the anguish of your child bleeding would be a memorable occasion, would it not? I'll ask you again, can you recall M having a nosebleed?
Repeat question 1... watch for squirming and 'eeerr,, errmm, well, errr'
Q3) "So, if neither of you can answer how or why this supposed nosebleed occoured behind the sofa, can you explain how a 3 year old girl managed to have a nosebleed but not get any blood on her clothes, the back of her hands (wiping blood from the nose), the front of the sofa (drip or sneeze) and only managed to get blood behind the sofa?
Q4) "Who do you suggest cleaned up after the mystery nosebleed if niehter of you did?"
IMO
From memory, I believe Dr Amaral said 'the fine blood spray' (on the wall) 'is consistent with a broken neck.'
When he discussed body fluids, he was referring to the Renault having fluids consistent with a body that had been frozen, or words to that effect.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Cheers pennylane, I wonder how though, for some reason I've always thought there wouldn't be blood, unless it came from the nose. I wonder is that why nosebleeds were mentioned?
IMO though cause not sure about these things!
IMO though cause not sure about these things!
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
palm tree wrote:Cheers pennylane, I wonder how though, for some reason I've always thought there wouldn't be blood, unless it came from the nose. I wonder is that why nosebleeds were mentioned?
IMO though cause not sure about these things!
Possibly so. I don't think there was much clean up to do, and I remain convinced their plans to hide the body happened very fast that evening, because they'd sedated M and the twins, and as a result M fell to her death.
From memory again, K originally said Madeleine MAY have had a nose blood, probably in order to explain any blood found in the apartment that was Madeleine's. Unfortunately for mummy dearest, that doesn't explain the cadaver dog alerts!!!
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
You've made my day! Funny when you get caught up with one thing, the main point is forgotten (me anyways!)pennylane wrote:palm tree wrote:Cheers pennylane, I wonder how though, for some reason I've always thought there wouldn't be blood, unless it came from the nose. I wonder is that why nosebleeds were mentioned?
IMO though cause not sure about these things!
Possibly so. I don't think there was much clean up to do, and I remain convinced their plans to hide the body happened very fast that evening, because they'd sedated M and the twins, and as a result M fell to her death.
From memory again, K originally said Madeleine MAY have had a nose blood, probably in order to explain any blood found in the apartment that was Madeleine's. Unfortunately for mummy dearest, that doesn't explain the cadaver dog alerts!!!
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
palm tree wrote:You've made my day! Funny when you get caught up with one thing, the main point is forgotten (me anyways!)pennylane wrote:palm tree wrote:Cheers pennylane, I wonder how though, for some reason I've always thought there wouldn't be blood, unless it came from the nose. I wonder is that why nosebleeds were mentioned?
IMO though cause not sure about these things!
Possibly so. I don't think there was much clean up to do, and I remain convinced their plans to hide the body happened very fast that evening, because they'd sedated M and the twins, and as a result M fell to her death.
From memory again, K originally said Madeleine MAY have had a nose blood, probably in order to explain any blood found in the apartment that was Madeleine's. Unfortunately for mummy dearest, that doesn't explain the cadaver dog alerts!!!
pennylane- Posts : 2770
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
pennylane wrote:Hello palm tree,palm tree wrote:Exactly woodforthetrees, one thing I can't get out of my head is GA in an interview (God knows where now though) is that he had said the fluids found were consistent with a broken neck, horrible, I know, but would like to see that again. This man is not stupid.woodforthetrees wrote:palm tree wrote:To me that says if they have found Madeleine's blood, then he'd say she had a nose bleed, depending on what they've found
IMO
Very true, but it would lead right into a few very nice, justifiable questions which would require a definitive answer from K&G and ones which answering "no comment" would not wash...
Q1) "So, can you explain why M had a nosebleed behind the sofa and more importantly, why there were no traces of blood found on the front of the sofa where she would have been sitting?"
Probable answer "errm, i have no idea, maybe she was playing hide and seek or something, i don't know, it doesn't prove anything"
Q2) "As a responsible parent, you would have comforted your child when she called to you to inform you that she had a nosebleed, would you not? As a concerned parent, the anguish of your child bleeding would be a memorable occasion, would it not? I'll ask you again, can you recall M having a nosebleed?
Repeat question 1... watch for squirming and 'eeerr,, errmm, well, errr'
Q3) "So, if neither of you can answer how or why this supposed nosebleed occoured behind the sofa, can you explain how a 3 year old girl managed to have a nosebleed but not get any blood on her clothes, the back of her hands (wiping blood from the nose), the front of the sofa (drip or sneeze) and only managed to get blood behind the sofa?
Q4) "Who do you suggest cleaned up after the mystery nosebleed if niehter of you did?"
IMO
From memory, I believe Dr Amaral said 'the fine blood spray' (on the wall) 'is consistent with a broken neck.'
When he discussed body fluids, he was referring to the Renault having fluids consistent with a body that had been frozen, or words to that effect.
Going back to the blood spray. It was actually a forum member on a thread on the Mirror forum that made the comment about certain type of blood spray. It was the night Kate was taken in for questioning and there was a thread running with a commentary of what was being said on Sky news and BBC. There was also a thread running on Digital Spy I believe. Anyway, in response to a broken neck being mentioned, people were asking huh, with no body how would anybody know that she broke her neck?. One forum member replied that they were sat there watching the news with a friend who was a nurse and that this nurse friend said that there was a certain type of blood spray commensurate with a fractured larynx. That line then got repeated over and over as if it was part of the original news story. But it was in fact just the opinion of somebody on the MF's friend who happened to be a nurse. The nurse friend may well be correct but when the files were released there didn't appear to be anything about this spray or fractured larynx.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Describing the story as a “breakthrough”, British tabloid the Daily Mirror claims detectives believe the fabric “may hold DNA” which WILL identify Madeleine’s abductor.
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What happens if, IF, the 'curtain' fabric 'identifies' ONLY the DNA of Ge££y and Hate Mccann? (or ONLY their 'friends', the T7)
WILL THEY, 'all' of theT9, then be 'identified' as MAIN 'suspects' in Madeleine's er, 'abduction'?
------------------------------------------
What happens if, IF, the 'curtain' fabric 'identifies' ONLY the DNA of Ge££y and Hate Mccann? (or ONLY their 'friends', the T7)
WILL THEY, 'all' of theT9, then be 'identified' as MAIN 'suspects' in Madeleine's er, 'abduction'?
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Stillthinking wrote:pennylane wrote:Hello palm tree,palm tree wrote:Exactly woodforthetrees, one thing I can't get out of my head is GA in an interview (God knows where now though) is that he had said the fluids found were consistent with a broken neck, horrible, I know, but would like to see that again. This man is not stupid.woodforthetrees wrote:palm tree wrote:To me that says if they have found Madeleine's blood, then he'd say she had a nose bleed, depending on what they've found
IMO
Very true, but it would lead right into a few very nice, justifiable questions which would require a definitive answer from K&G and ones which answering "no comment" would not wash...
Q1) "So, can you explain why M had a nosebleed behind the sofa and more importantly, why there were no traces of blood found on the front of the sofa where she would have been sitting?"
Probable answer "errm, i have no idea, maybe she was playing hide and seek or something, i don't know, it doesn't prove anything"
Q2) "As a responsible parent, you would have comforted your child when she called to you to inform you that she had a nosebleed, would you not? As a concerned parent, the anguish of your child bleeding would be a memorable occasion, would it not? I'll ask you again, can you recall M having a nosebleed?
Repeat question 1... watch for squirming and 'eeerr,, errmm, well, errr'
Q3) "So, if neither of you can answer how or why this supposed nosebleed occoured behind the sofa, can you explain how a 3 year old girl managed to have a nosebleed but not get any blood on her clothes, the back of her hands (wiping blood from the nose), the front of the sofa (drip or sneeze) and only managed to get blood behind the sofa?
Q4) "Who do you suggest cleaned up after the mystery nosebleed if niehter of you did?"
IMO
From memory, I believe Dr Amaral said 'the fine blood spray' (on the wall) 'is consistent with a broken neck.'
When he discussed body fluids, he was referring to the Renault having fluids consistent with a body that had been frozen, or words to that effect.
Going back to the blood spray. It was actually a forum member on a thread on the Mirror forum that made the comment about certain type of blood spray. It was the night Kate was taken in for questioning and there was a thread running with a commentary of what was being said on Sky news and BBC. There was also a thread running on Digital Spy I believe. Anyway, in response to a broken neck being mentioned, people were asking huh, with no body how would anybody know that she broke her neck?. One forum member replied that they were sat there watching the news with a friend who was a nurse and that this nurse friend said that there was a certain type of blood spray commensurate with a fractured larynx. That line then got repeated over and over as if it was part of the original news story. But it was in fact just the opinion of somebody on the MF's friend who happened to be a nurse. The nurse friend may well be correct but when the files were released there didn't appear to be anything about this spray or fractured larynx.
I posted this link yesterday on another thread that explains different types of blood patterns in crime scenes and thought it was interesting
Principles of Bloodstain Pattern Analysis
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Joss- Posts : 1960
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
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thank goodness this DNA evidence wasn't thrown away or destroyed.
I have a question as I know absolutely nothing about DNA.
Are all DNA samples sent for analysis automatically stored on a central computer?
It seems odd to me that samples from 32 years ago are on the data base but the samples sent from Portugal are not available?
I have done a quick search of the Mirror site but can't see any follow up from their 2014 report, so are we to assume that nothing came of the alleged DNA evidence from the curtains?
thank goodness this DNA evidence wasn't thrown away or destroyed.
I have a question as I know absolutely nothing about DNA.
Are all DNA samples sent for analysis automatically stored on a central computer?
It seems odd to me that samples from 32 years ago are on the data base but the samples sent from Portugal are not available?
I have done a quick search of the Mirror site but can't see any follow up from their 2014 report, so are we to assume that nothing came of the alleged DNA evidence from the curtains?
plebgate- Posts : 6729
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
woodforthetrees wrote:palm tree wrote:To me that says if they have found Madeleine's blood, then he'd say she had a nose bleed, depending on what they've found
IMO
Very true, but it would lead right into a few very nice, justifiable questions which would require a definitive answer from K&G and ones which answering "no comment" would not wash...
Q1) "So, can you explain why M had a nosebleed behind the sofa and more importantly, why there were no traces of blood found on the front of the sofa where she would have been sitting?"
Probable answer "errm, i have no idea, maybe she was playing hide and seek or something, i don't know, it doesn't prove anything"
Q2) "As a responsible parent, you would have comforted your child when she called to you to inform you that she had a nosebleed, would you not? As a concerned parent, the anguish of your child bleeding would be a memorable occasion, would it not? I'll ask you again, can you recall M having a nosebleed?
Repeat question 1... watch for squirming and 'eeerr,, errmm, well, errr'
Q3) "So, if neither of you can answer how or why this supposed nosebleed occoured behind the sofa, can you explain how a 3 year old girl managed to have a nosebleed but not get any blood on her clothes, the back of her hands (wiping blood from the nose), the front of the sofa (drip or sneeze) and only managed to get blood behind the sofa?
Q4) "Who do you suggest cleaned up after the mystery nosebleed if niether of you did?"
The "nosebleed" thing ALWAYS reminds me of the excuse used by that thing Ian Huntley, when he tried to say either holly wells/Jessica Chapman had a nosebleed in his bathroom. It always sticks out to me, sorry and obviously just my own opinion!
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
The UK has had a national DNA database since 1995, but a national DNA database was only created in Portugal in 2008. You can look on the Gene Watch site for more information.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Wiki is not the most reliable source of information I know but I think this gives a rough indication of the system..plebgate wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
thank goodness this DNA evidence wasn't thrown away or destroyed.
I have a question as I know absolutely nothing about DNA.
Are all DNA samples sent for analysis automatically stored on a central computer?
It seems odd to me that samples from 32 years ago are on the data base but the samples sent from Portugal are not available?
I have done a quick search of the Mirror site but can't see any follow up from their 2014 report, so are we to assume that nothing came of the alleged DNA evidence from the curtains?
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As can be seen the national database is far from adequate although in some respects can be invaluable in crime investigations - but not infallible.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
sallypelt wrote:Detectives plan to do new tests on curtains which hung in the apartment where Madeleine McCann disappeared.
They believe the fabric, which has been sealed in an evidence file since [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] vanished in Portugal in 2007, may hold DNA which will identify to her abductor.
Scotland Yard sent an urgent request to their counterparts in Portugal asking permission to re-examine the fabric.
Forensic experts on the Operation Grange team want to use new techniques to analyse the curtains, which hung in the room where Madeleine was sleeping with her baby brother and sister.
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Did the Portuguese grant this request? If so, I have to shake my head in wonder. After the way the UK treated the DNA evidence previously sent them by the PJ if these curtains were sent along as well I bet now they're either missing or declared of 'no use'. I think the presence of Maddie's DNA is almost assured given their location behind the sofa but we'll never hear of it if the UK authorities go hold of them.
whodunit- Posts : 467
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
My instincts tell me there's no way the Portuguese would ever turn over any evidence in its entirety again to the British!
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
From 2014, so for two years they have been testing?whodunit wrote:sallypelt wrote:Detectives plan to do new tests on curtains which hung in the apartment where Madeleine McCann disappeared.
They believe the fabric, which has been sealed in an evidence file since [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] vanished in Portugal in 2007, may hold DNA which will identify to her abductor.
Scotland Yard sent an urgent request to their counterparts in Portugal asking permission to re-examine the fabric.
Forensic experts on the Operation Grange team want to use new techniques to analyse the curtains, which hung in the room where Madeleine was sleeping with her baby brother and sister.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Did the Portuguese grant this request? If so, I have to shake my head in wonder. After the way the UK treated the DNA evidence previously sent them by the PJ if these curtains were sent along as well I bet now they're either missing or declared of 'no use'. I think the presence of Maddie's DNA is almost assured given their location behind the sofa but we'll never hear of it if the UK authorities go hold of them.
Weird how nothing has been reported since, or maybe it isn't considering how OG have
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MayMuse- Posts : 2033
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
I hope you're right, @[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]!
Yet I can't help but feel the "urgent request" signifies not a desire to find an abductor but a pressing need to nip off any loose evidentiary ends that implicate the McCanns in the DEATH of MBM. When it comes right down to it SY have no right, never had any right, to physical custody of any of the evidence.
Yet I can't help but feel the "urgent request" signifies not a desire to find an abductor but a pressing need to nip off any loose evidentiary ends that implicate the McCanns in the DEATH of MBM. When it comes right down to it SY have no right, never had any right, to physical custody of any of the evidence.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
@[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]---"From 2014, so for two years they have been testing?
Weird how nothing has been reported since, or maybe it isn't considering how OG havemisbehaved!?"
I'm not sure the urgent request was granted? I certainly hope not. If the Portuguese had any sense they would have had the curtains tested in their own facilities. I wish someone on location would ask them about this. I think this evidence is critically important---as did SY apparently--and I have no idea why it was just sitting in an evidence room.
Weird how nothing has been reported since, or maybe it isn't considering how OG have
I'm not sure the urgent request was granted? I certainly hope not. If the Portuguese had any sense they would have had the curtains tested in their own facilities. I wish someone on location would ask them about this. I think this evidence is critically important---as did SY apparently--and I have no idea why it was just sitting in an evidence room.
whodunit- Posts : 467
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Totally agree!whodunit wrote:I hope you're right, @[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]!
Yet I can't help but feel the "urgent request" signifies not a desire to find an abductor but a pressing need to nip off any loose evidentiary ends that implicate the McCanns in the DEATH of MBM. When it comes right down to it SY have no right, never had any right, to physical custody of any of the evidence.
Op Grange were salivating for a joint investigation with Portugal to find 'the abductor who took Madeleine,' and openly stated this in the past to exert pressure on the Portuguese. However, they failed to get their nosy snouts into the original investigation, and instead were graciously given a separate team in Faro to assist them with any important 'abduction' leads.
imo Portugal has played a blinder.
pennylane- Posts : 2770
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
They were intimidated and cowed by the mighty Scotland Yard of legend and bent to their will. I hope they've learned lessons since and grown a pair. Though sadly this doesn't seem to be the case as they latest headlines are all about the PJ sitting patiently waiting on marching orders from SY.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
I hope they did too, wasn't it said that a sofa was also kept? Im trying to find it now without success but sure I read somewhere that GA mentioned it.? IF anyone can help would appreciate it.whodunit wrote:@[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]---"From 2014, so for two years they have been testing?
Weird how nothing has been reported since, or maybe it isn't considering how OG havemisbehaved!?"
I'm not sure the urgent request was granted? I certainly hope not. If the Portuguese had any sense they would have had the curtains tested in their own facilities. I wish someone on location would ask them about this. I think this evidence is critically important---as did SY apparently--and I have no idea why it was just sitting in an evidence room.
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MayMuse- Posts : 2033
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
That would be ideal as it would be very difficult to effectively clean upholstery without the proper machinery which would have to be rented, or if not rented borrowed and then lugged up the apartment steps. I mean, really. It's bad enough they were laundering the curtains and bleaching the tiles and apparently doing a bit of gardening, but cleaning the upholstery? It's practically a farce.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
whodunit wrote:They were intimidated and cowed by the mighty Scotland Yard of legend and bent to their will. I hope they've learned lessons since and grown a pair. Though sadly this doesn't seem to be the case as they latest headlines are all about the PJ sitting patiently waiting on marching orders from SY.
They haven't bowed to their will (imo). Op Grange did not get the joint investigation they so lusted after, instead they were given a new team in Faro 'to assist them,' and as a result are left looking rather foolish as they continue to hunt for the phantom abductor.
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
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The link for the forensics... I think it was the Burgau apartment so I may be incorrect as can only find that they collected hairs etc from that particular sofa. I need to keep looking and reading...
It seems that GA forwarded several requests to FSS for them to carry out the forensics urgently, ( bloods from 5A etc) does anyone else think that the FSS seemed to be using delaying tactics back then? As the next letter in response stated that DNA was retrieved from the parents home in England?
The link for the forensics... I think it was the Burgau apartment so I may be incorrect as can only find that they collected hairs etc from that particular sofa. I need to keep looking and reading...
It seems that GA forwarded several requests to FSS for them to carry out the forensics urgently, ( bloods from 5A etc) does anyone else think that the FSS seemed to be using delaying tactics back then? As the next letter in response stated that DNA was retrieved from the parents home in England?
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“Basically, I’m just an ordinary, straightforward guy who’s the victim of the biggest f***-up on this planet – if you’ll excuse the language.” [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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MayMuse- Posts : 2033
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Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope
Yes, but the PJ did send along many DNA samples and left it up to Leics police to conduct rogotory interviews, which should NEVER have been allowed much less requested.
whodunit- Posts : 467
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