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Post by phil_burton on 05.10.14 19:33

Apologies for going over old ground.

I've recently read the mccann files page about the trip to Huelva.

There is mention of Gerry disposing of a fridge. Does anyone have a screenshot of Gerry's blog where he admitted this? I am told he then deleted this from his blog

Also, if no one has a screenshot, has anyone ever thought of checking the web archive for this?
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The fridge  Empty Re: The fridge

Post by canada12 on 05.10.14 19:47

@phil_burton wrote:Apologies for going over old ground.

I've recently read the mccann files page about the trip to Huelva.

There is mention of Gerry disposing of a fridge. Does anyone have a screenshot of Gerry's blog where he admitted this? I am told he then deleted this from his blog

Also, if no one has a screenshot, has anyone ever thought of checking the web archive for this?

No one has a screenshot, and it's been deleted from the web archives. However there were a good many of us who read the original story in 2007 and remember it.

There is some discussion here on the archive of the old 3A's forum:
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13146&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=fridge+dump&start=45
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The fridge  Empty A smelly fridge those unreliable early sniffer dogs WOW

Post by j.rob on 09.10.14 18:14

Oh - WOW! Surely this is quite a biggy, or am I getting over-excited?!

The early sniffer dog findings (and we know how much TM like to say sniffer dogs are unreliable......)

Following the scent of Madeleine from 5a to apartment 5J. Where on several occasions several dogs did the same thing. Followed the trial to apartment 5J and became very agitated outside.

On the 4th May, 7th May, 8th May, 10th May - sniffer dogs did the same thing, as far as I can tell.........

And when police search the apartment which had been empty for some time they find a fridge with a door open and rotting meat and vegetables inside......how peculiar.....reminiscent of the rotting meat and smelly nappies that the Mcs say were in their hire car where later on sniffer dogs trained to pick up cadaver scent alerted.

What happened in apartment 5J? Why did the dogs follow Madeleine's trial of scent to outside here? Why did they get so agitated outside? On many separate occasions? (How close is apartment 5J to Jane and Russell's apartment which they claimed had a 'horrendous smell' coming from it? And in which the washing machine must have been in constant use if it is true that their child had diarrhea all week.)

A summary of the original sniffer dog findings is on page 3 of this link from 'missing Madeleine':

here's a bit of a summary re the GNR and Human search & rescue dogs deployments. 

The Report states that GNR Tracker Dogs were used and Search & Rescue Dogs were also requested because they are specially trained to find humans. 
4th May 02.00 - The first GNR tracker dogs were deployed.. 

The Report reads as though the first dog was given a blanket used by Madeleine to sniff in order for the dog to retrieve her scent.
The search began at apartment 5a and block 5 was searched or at least the corridors etc., the dog stopped at apt 5J then changed direction toward block 4.
At the corner of Block 5 it turned left heading for the path between the buildings and the leisure area - pools and restaurant - going on to turn left and around the building, setting out for the main street, crossing the road to the wall of Block 6
There it turned right - going down the road - taking itself to the car park next to Block 6 where its search took it to a lamppost where it then became confused and stopped the search.
The second dog was submitted to the same operation, also showing interest at door of 5J, namely it scratched with it front paws at the veranda parapet and lifted its head to sniff the air to find a scent.

7th May - “The Commander, Officer Silva, took part in a meetings with the PJ Directorate, being asked by the PJ about the viability of giving the girl’s clothes to the dogs for the dogs to sniff again, and if by means of the odour inhaled, they would be able to mark an identical odour in one of the resort’s apartments even though its door was closed.”

“ Around 23.00 the first dog was given items of Madeleine’s clothing to sniff and followed the scent trail to apt 5J and like the other dogs it’s behaviour changed.
This was repeated using a second dog which again followed the same scent trail and reacted the same way as the other dog. “
-From the report ; “In a conversation with the GNR team ( the tracker dog team ) who were on the scene first, they advised that on the 4 May they had done the same work, with no control over the direction taken by the dogs, i.e. they were not directed into the buildings, it being certain that they took the same route described above, with the same attitude, losing the trail next to the car park of Block 6.”

“In this concrete situation, the objective would be for the dogs to carry out a discontinuous search, in other words, to sniff the girl’s clothes and immediately search near to the apartments, checking to see if there was any change in the behaviour of the dogs.” 

8th May- The GNR team performing the search had in its possession, packed in a plastic bag, a towel supposedly used to clean the missing youngster - Madeleine McCann - furnished by her parents.
- After the conditions for the search are met, the two GNR officers - the leader and the dog handler - gave the scent towel to one of the dogs to smell and led it into Block 5.
-From the Report ; “The GNR team performing the search had in its possession, packed in a plastic bag, a towel supposedly used to clean the missing youngster - Madeleine McCann - furnished by her parents”

10th may - During the last deployment on the 10th May all the apartments were searched by the dogs and when they arrived at apartment 5 J they began to sniff with intensity at the entrance door. During this behaviour it was noted by the PJ officers that there must be some unusual odour, but which with all certainty did not have anything to do with the odour being searched for, but there must have been something strange inside.
-From the Report ; “ On 10th May at about 20.10, upon the request of the PJ, searches were carried out in all of the apartments belonging to blocks 4 and 5 of the OC, two tracker dogs and two search and rescue dogs being used for this operation, adopting the same methods as those used on 7th May,”


-Three different items were used as target scents – items used in order for the dogs to retrieve the specific scent they are trained to locate and follow. These were a towel, clothing belonging to the missing child and a blanket. 

-From the Report ; “It was only when all the searches of the apartments in blocks 4 and 5 were complete, that the behaviour described above was registered. It is certain that this kind of work does not correspond to the area that these dogs were trained in, but given that these types of dogs manage to discriminate a specific odour from others, although it could be a remote possibility that they related the odour of the missing girl with a possible location where she could have been.”


The human scent they are trained to locate is cellular debris believed to be a result of perspiration combined with skin oils that serves as a breeding ground for bacteria found on our skin / skin cell’s , culture , diet , environment , and race are also influences unique to the individual and account for the singularity of a persons scent and which also forms the basis of the human scent trail. Human’s loose approximately 4000 skin cells a minute and each one is unique to the individual.
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The fridge  Empty Re: The fridge

Post by j.rob on 09.10.14 18:33

Sorry can't find the link from missing madeleine.
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Post by HelenMeg on 09.10.14 18:45

That is very interesting. Do we know anything about 5 J? Who was in it or was it not occupied. Also, the Mc Canns could have easily chosen to give the dogs false leads to follow e.g. blanket etc not used by Madeleine. If I was them, in their situation, with an intention to mislead,   I would have probably given stuff used by someone else - not Madeleine.
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The fridge  Empty Re: The fridge

Post by Hicks on 09.10.14 18:53


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You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln.
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The fridge  Empty Ask the dogs Sandra?

Post by j.rob on 10.10.14 17:32

@Hicks wrote:More about apartment 5j, and the cadaver dogs, in this thread.


https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3888-apt-5j-what-q-says-about-the-gnr-search-and-rescue-dogs.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting 



That is very interesting. Do we know anything about 5 J? Who was in it or was it not occupied. Also, the Mc Canns could have easily chosen to give the dogs false leads to follow e.g. blanket etc not used by Madeleine. If I was them, in their situation, with an intention to mislead,   I would have probably given stuff used by someone else - not Madeleine.

I agree about giving false leads to follow. But the leads would have needed to lead away from the resort. So as to support an abduction of a live child scenario. While the dogs did eventually follow a scent to the car-park, it was not a direct route, You would expect 'the abductor' to take the most direct route away. Not go back around all the apartment block, as suggested by the sniffer dogs. And what interested the dogs  the most was what must have been a very strong odour coming from apartment 5J - an apartment that has been empty for some time. 

And when eventually police look inside, they find a fridge with the door open with rotting meat inside. This is so reminiscent of the story about the smell coming from the hire car where the cadaver dogs alerted - the story given by some of TM. It all seems so staged.

And it would appear that, despite the dog alerts at apartment 5J, police could not search this apartment for several days? 

Very odd. For all anyone knew, this was where Madeleine was hidden...dead or alive.

And when the cadaver sniffer dogs are brought in during the summer of 2007, why were they not taken inside apartment 5J? Did they alert to this apartment again in the summer or not? Was the fridge still there?

Hmmmm.

I wonder who 5J  belongs to?
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Post by j.rob on 10.10.14 17:42

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

This thread gives a lot of information about the original dog searches in May 2007. 

Those pesky dogs never did believe the McScam, imo. 

They've told it as it is from the very beginning I think. That's partly why the police never believed TM I suppose.

Also of note is that, if you look in the link in the post above and also in the diagrams and articles in the PJ files, you will see that very early UK media reports in May 2007 gave a completely false diagram of the scent dog trail. Suggesting it went straight from the apartment down the road towards the supermarket. 

In other words no mention at all of the dogs going along to apartment 5J and circling the whole apartment block.

Now, why would that be I wonder? Why would the media not report the truth about the trail followed by the scent dogs?

Answers on a stamp?
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The fridge  Empty The route the scent dogs really took. And the route as reported by The Mirror

Post by j.rob on 10.10.14 18:31

The fridge  Maddietrail

Above is the route that  sniffer dogs, trained to follow a live person's scent, took on several occasions in May 2007.  They went from apartment 5a to a car park. But rather than going directly to the car-park, the dogs went in the opposite direction  first, past apartment 5J. Where they stopped outside and became agitated. Before doubling back on the other side of the apartments to go to the car park not far from the pool area/tapas bar. The dogs had been given a scent from a towel supposedly used by Madeleine.

The fridge  Lostliveoverview

The route above is the one that the Daily Mirror reported that the sniffer dogs had followed in a news story on 5th May 2007. Note how the route is quite different. And goes to a different car park which is further away. And next to a supermarket.

As the report in the PJ files makes clear: the route as outlined by the Daily Mirror is incorrect. 

 "The Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team, who coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs, states that the dogs took the same route on both 04 May 2007 and 08 May 2007 - i.e. around the apartments and into the nearby car park, where the trail was lost. "(Statement can be viewed on [color:2ade=000000]this page).


 As the report in the PJ files points out: "the pictures remain as they do provide good aerial views of the area and also provide a good example of how incorrect newspaper reports can take on a life of their own."


Ahem, quite so.

Note too how the route as outlined by the police report would be much more consistent with some kind of 'inside job' in terms of how Madeleine was removed from the Ocean Club. Whereas the route as shown in the Mirror report would be more consistent with the type of 'abduction' as reported by Jane Tanner and backed up by the McCanns. In my opinion. 


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html
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The fridge  Empty Re: The fridge

Post by HelenMeg on 24.06.15 15:28

This link appears to agree that Gerry wrote about replacing fridge in blog but it was later edited out. Please read this link if you have time - its good and makes sense - I just read it and although I am an aficionado of death on 3rd May it made me think twice - as it ties everything in nicely together - especially if the latest on CEOP file being captured on 30th April is true. 


https://www.facebook.com/MadeleineMcCannNewsAsItHappens/posts/664178530330847
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Post by sallypelt on 24.06.15 16:01

@HelenMeg wrote:This link appears to agree that Gerry wrote about replacing fridge in blog but it was later edited out. Please read this link if you have time - its good and makes sense - I just read it and although I am an aficionado of death on 3rd May it made me think twice - as it ties everything in nicely together - especially if the latest on CEOP file being captured on 30th April is true. 


https://www.facebook.com/MadeleineMcCannNewsAsItHappens/posts/664178530330847
Taking this from Helenmeg's link above:

"[Mutat's] flight booking was apparently made between 12midnight and 2am on Monday 1 May".

Now I cannot believe that someone would book a plane at that time without it being an absolute emergency.
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The fridge  Empty Re: The fridge

Post by lj on 24.06.15 17:26

Maybe a dumb question: wasn't Murat married to a British woman, who resided in Britain? Was their marriage performed in Portugal? If not, why would he have to see a Portuguese lawyer about his divorce?

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Post by Casey5 on 24.06.15 21:25

The fridge story may have been just that, a story but what about the photo, which I myself saw, of Gerry McCann with a suitcase on the beach I think it was with a kid's bucket and spade. That photo has become hard to find, I believe it was said at the time that Gerry was collecting belongings from apartment 5A.
Does anyone else remember this?
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Post by jeanmonroe on 25.06.15 11:36

Gonçalo Amaral: "I remind you that they “demanded” the archiving of the process, in 2008, when they were arguidos, merely to defend their image. They are not interested in the reopening of the process or of the investigation"

Now WHY would 'they' do THAT?

NORMAL 'people' would be 'beating the door down, protesting, demanding' that the 'investigation' into their 'missing' relative was NEVER, EVER, 'archived/shelved/CLOSED'!

"It may sound ODD, but we were GLAD the investigation (into our 'missing' daughter) was.CLOSED"! KM 'in her book', madeleine. (2011)

"whether the investigation is re-opened, or NOT, it DOSEN'T MATTER"  KM (2009)

Saturday, 29 May 2010
Madeleine McCann's parents, Kate and Gerry, have never requested the re-opening of the investigation into their daughter's disappearance.

Neither the McCanns nor their lawyers have asked for the re-opening of the case, was confirmed by the office of the Chief Prosecutor of the Republic, putting an end to speculation.

Despite its being three years since the little British girl was reported missing, her parents have at no time taken the necessary steps for the Portuguese authorities - those who hold jurisdiction - to carry on with the case.

10 May 2011
"To ask for the process to be reopened, all it would take is a letter to the Prosecutor, as it has already happened in so many other cases. It costs them nothing, just the stamp on the letter."

WHY IS IT THAT, T MAY (Home Secretary) and  UK TAXPAYERS, ARE 'FUNDING' A £13 MILLION+, 38 'strong' FULL TIME police staff, 'INVESTIGATION', (OG) EVEN K&GM (the parents of the 'missing' child)............. 'DON'T WANT'?

WHY?

jta: How MANY 'REAL crimes' could the 38 'full time' police 'staff' (at OG) have 'solved', in London, in the 'time' (over 4 YEARS) they have been 'assigned', SOLELY 'DEDICATED', to OG?

Hundreds? THOUSANDS?

Operation Grange:  (ONE 'abducted' child 'case' based SOLELY/ENTIRELY upon what ONLY two 'people' have 'SAID',  without 'proof' of anything!)
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Post by mysterion on 25.06.15 14:54

Good questions for a Commons Select Committee to ask of the Home Secretary. She would not , perhaps, comment on ongoing investigations but she could answer questions about a hell of a lot more. I think you can say what you like on a CSC  without being Carter-Rucked.
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Post by siobhan3443 on 27.06.15 0:15

http:
//steelmagnolia
-mccannarchives.blogspot
.nl/2011/05/
hubbardsthe-fridge-freezer-was-it-myth.html



this is an interesting blog about fridge/freezer - check the owners name, the 3rd link is still live 



remove spaces, can't link because I'm guest
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Post by siobhan3443 on 27.06.15 0:22

check the customer reviews and check the family name staying there july/aug 2007

another coincidence?
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Post by Doug D on 27.06.15 15:11

http://steelmagnolia-mccannarchives.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/hubbardsthe-fridge-freezer-was-it-myth.html

Sorry, got this but where are the customer reviews and family staying there in Aug?
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Post by siobhan3445 on 27.06.15 15:19

clink third link down on steelmagnolia site

praiadaluzapartment . com


click guest comments on left
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Post by Doug D on 27.06.15 15:36

Thanks, I’m with you now!
 
Here’s the two bits to save others the trouble:
 
 
Contact Us
To find out more about the apartment or to request a booking please contact:
Andrew & Isabel Hubbard on +44 (0)1285 643779 or to send an email please click on the link at the bottom of this page
 
"We had a lovely time at the apartment, it was spotlessly clean and everything worked perfectly. We thoroughly recommend this apartment and intend to return again sometime", Donald Payne & family, July/August 2007
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Post by lj on 28.06.15 0:12

@Doug D wrote:Thanks, I’m with you now!
 
Here’s the two bits to save others the trouble:
 
 
Contact Us
To find out more about the apartment or to request a booking please contact:
Andrew & Isabel Hubbard on +44 (0)1285 643779 or to send an email please click on the link at the bottom of this page
 
"We had a lovely time at the apartment, it was spotlessly clean and everything worked perfectly. We thoroughly recommend this apartment and intend to return again sometime", Donald Payne & family, July/August 2007


All first names are off. Are we to assume these both are family from the Hubbards and the Paynes?

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Post by Doug D on 28.06.15 0:36

I think that is what is being suggested. Don't know how much digging anyone has done into possible connections though. Payne is a fairly common name, Hubbard less so.
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Post by j.rob on 08.08.15 20:12

I think that Madeleine was tragically 'silenced' one night - quite possibly the evening when neighbour Mrs Fenn heard crying coming from the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter. Crying that escalated and only stopped, very abruptly, when Mrs Fenn heard what she assumed to be Madeleine's parents coming back and opening the shutters. I theorize that the very abrupt cessation of crying is suspicious and suggestive of a certain scenario. A scenario which would be consistent with the type of thing that happens when children are subject to abuse - whether sexual/emotional/violent or a combination thereof.

I theorize that - assuming the crying incident is relevant (and of course we don't know for sure but let's assume it is as Kate and  Fiona Payne are both verbally abusive to Mrs Fenn on the night of Madeleine's alleged 'abduction' which suggests Mrs Fenn was a thorn in the side) then something bad had already happened to Madeleine by the time of the Mrs Fenn crying incident.

Robert Murat apparently booked a flight at the last minute late at night the night before the Mrs Fenn crying incident. This suggests to me that certain untoward events had already happened to Madeleine by the time Murat made his last minute late night booking. I believe Murat arrived in Luz in the early hours of 1st May. 

That could place the "something untoward" happening to Madeleine as happening on the Sunday or the Monday. I think bad things had been happening prior to this incident but the incident is relevant because Madeleine woke up when something bad was happening.

 I theorize that there was a crying incident that was highly relevant - whether or not this connects with what Mrs Fenn heard. I believe it does. I think "something bad" happened that woke up Madeleine early in the holiday and made her inconsolable. This I believe could have been on Sunday or Monday. Probably not as early as Saturday otherwise Murat would have come out sooner. (It is possible that Kate was in the apartment on the evening of the Mrs Fenn crying incident and was trying but failing to console  a frightened and traumatized Madeleine.)

The FACT that both Kate and Gerry have flagged up a crying incident in which Madeleine woke up during that fateful week suggests to me that this is highly sensitive and highly relevant. In true McScam style they have "santized" the incident. Again this is a huge red flag, imo. There is an early media interview when Kate becomes obviously highly distressed when talking about the crying incident. To the extent that she starts to fan her face in distress. Her body language gives her away - this incident is a huge hot potato.

Looking at the Gasper statements - a couple who had shared a previous holiday with both the McCanns and the Paynes- one might surmise  that McCann and Payne family holidays include certain activities that are not that child-friendly. Mrs Gasper refused to let David Payne bathe her daughter after she witnessed him making lewd gestures and she was immediately concerned when she learned that David Payne had been on the holiday during which Madeleine was allegedly 'abducted'.

After Madeleine had been tragically and cruelly "silenced" (one can only imagine who this might have been) all hell would have broken loose and cleaning products, forensics, fridges, freezers, large bags, possibly prams/push-chairs (anything that could conceal a small child) would have become critical to effect a cover-up on a massive scale.

The dogs uncovered the lie right from the beginning. The early sniffer dogs became agitated outside an empty nearby apartment - apartment 5J - which, when police eventually were able to gain entry to - they found a fridge with the door open and rotting vegetables near by. But the sniffer dogs would be trained not to respond to rotting meat/vegetables so it must have been the scent of something else that agitated them. Of course these were not cadaver dogs but still something agitated them greatly.

If - as Amaral claims - Madeleine died in apartment 5A, then the removal of her body from the apartment would be of the essence. A nearby empty apartment - 5J - with a fridge/freezer large enough to conceal a body might be a temporary storage place for a day or two perhaps before a more permanent solution can be found. I presume a large sports bag would be a useful way of carrying a small child away from the apartment and to other locations in or outside the resort without attracting any suspicion. A covered pram/push chair would be another way especially if you pretended the child was sleeping. Possibly apartment 5J was a temporary holding bay before Robert Murat arrived to help (whether wittingly or unwittingly). I would be interested to know who owned apartment 5J and - if it was used in some way - how TM got hold of the keys.

Does anyone know when exactly Gerry claimed in his blog that he dumped the broken down fridge/freezer from their rented apartment at a local dump? If this is relevant (and it is the most extraordinary thing to have blogged but maybe he was sending messages via blogs) then it suggests that on the day the fridge/freezer was disposed there was no longer any need for it. A more permanent arrangement had been made.

This would have been quite some time after 3rd May wouldn't it as they were initially moved to a different apartment at OC weren't they? I wonder when exactly they moved to the rented villa?

Theories as always. I would like to be entirely wrong as I really do believe this poor child deserved so much better. Her life was cruelly taken away by adults who are utterly abhorrent, imo.
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