THE McCANNS, THE PUBLIC'S JUSTIFIABLE ANGER

by **Jill Havern** 17.05.10 13:46

Posted by A Isherwood

'The court case has demonstrated, once again, that there is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm"

This is a quote from a recent press statement issued by the McCanns following the failure of an appeal by Goncolo Amaral to have the temporary ban on his book "The Truth of The Lie" lifted. The aforementioned court case demonstrated no such thing but the oft repeated lament of the McCanns that their "beloved daughter" has come to no harm is as ludicrous as Clarence Mitchell's new haircut.

Let's rewind to the beginning and look at the McCann parenting before Madeleine disappeared. Could we say, even then, that no harm had been done? No, I don't believe we could.

Madeleine was not yet 4 years old and was repeatedly left alone with her twin, 18 month old, siblings. The children were left after they had been put to bed, secure in the knowledge that Mummy and Daddy were close by and that they were protected. You don't need to be a doctor to recognise the crime in abandoning these children to further your own pleasures, but one could be forgiven for thinking that a solid medical background would make you more aware of the dangers than most. Even a child that usually sleeps soundly from dusk to dawn may awaken when you least expect it and require comfort and reassurance before settling back down again. What happens to a child who wakes up from a nightmare to find Mummy and Daddy are nowhere to be found? What psychological damage is done to a child who cries and cries but no-one comes? How long would it take for that child to start feeling secure again? How many nights of going to bed, fearful that they may abandoned again once their eyes have closed? How would a parent feel, knowing that this damage had been done to their child as a direct result of their wilful neglect?

Well, the McCanns did know. Madeleine asked them directly why they had not come when she and her brother were crying. They should have felt terrible, they should have felt guilty and they should have felt lucky. Lucky to have been given a wake-up call, lucky to have the chance to re-establish a sense of security in their little girl without having to deal with the results of any terrible mishap that could have easily befallen her. It was time for a massive re-think. They had caused their children psychological harm but had luckily escaped them coming to physical harm.

WHAT KATE AND GERRY DIDN'T DO NEXT

Well they didn't decide to have a family day filled with fun, love and cuddles, Madeleine was packed off to nursery as usual, spending only the lunchtime period with her parents.

Maybe a family evening was planned with hot dogs, games, bedtime stories and the sound of their parents quiet conversation providing comforting reassurance to the chldren as they drifted in and out of sleep? No, they didn't do that either.

The McCann parents, amazingly, abandoned their children yet again. This is where neglect became abuse, this is where all excuses fail, this is when the world saw this couple for the people they are and this is where they became criminals. If they want to blame naivety for further risking their children's psychological and physical welfare then they are clearly not mentally competent to be in charge of children.

Whatever happened to Madeleine that night, they wilfully allowed it to happen. They put all their children at risk and they have all, in one way or another been harmed.

Whatever the truth behind the very implausible abduction theory or the far more plausible conclusion of the police inquiry, that she died in the holiday flat, the fact remains that the McCanns are guilty of the crime of abuse and we don't want to see them lauded, protected, garnering millions from benefactors and serial litigation. We want to see them punished, we want them to hang their heads in shame, we want them to say they are to blame. We do not want them to hold Gala dinners, cuddle Oprah, kiss the pope's ring, give speeches or attempt to become any kind of ambassadors for child protection.

How the McCanns came to be protected and promoted by a glittering bubble of power is another story. One well worth waiting for.

http://holdthegravy.blogspot.com/2010/02/mccanns-our-justifiable-anger.html#comments

by vaguely1 17.05.10 13:48

the fact remains that the McCanns are guilty of the crime of abuse

??

by ufercoffy 17.05.10 14:43

Child abuse can take four forms, all of which can cause long term damage to a child: physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect and child sexual abuse.

The McCann children were neglected, at least, which means they were abused.

The McCanns are guilty of the crime of abuse.

by vaguely1 17.05.10 14:47

I see neglect and abuse as different. Neglect is is a non action, abuse an action.

I think the passage is misleading, the wording points to a successful prosecution for abuse. As opposed to a non-prosecution for neglect.

by ufercoffy 17.05.10 15:13

Take it up with the NSPCC then

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/helpandadvice/whatchildabuse/neglect/neglect_wda36377.html

The signs of neglect

There are occasions when nearly all parents find it difficult to cope with the many demands of caring for children. But this does not mean that their children are being neglected. Neglect involves ongoing, severe failure to meet a child's needs. Here are some signs of possible neglect:

if the child seems underweight and is very small for their age
if they are poorly clothed, with inadequate protection from the weather
if they are often absent from school for no apparent reason
if they are regularly left alone, or in charge of younger brothers or sisters.

by vaguely1 17.05.10 15:22

Why would I take it up with them? They're talking about neglect. I agree with them.

I was arguing the difference between abuse and neglect.

by kangdang 17.05.10 19:26

Leaving a young child to sob alone in the dark for 75 minutes is psychological abuse.

by ufercoffy 17.05.10 19:53

It certainly is. As is being left alone to be taken by an abductor - it must have been a terrifying experience for a three year old.

Or, hypothetically speaking of course, so would being left alone to fall off the back of the sofa and make a mess with blood up the walls that would require thorough(ish) cleaning. THE McCANNS, THE PUBLIC'S JUSTIFIABLE ANGER 968430

THE McCANNS, THE PUBLIC'S JUSTIFIABLE ANGER 968430

by justagrannynow 1 18.05.10 6:21

IMO this nitpicking type of discussion about abuse/neglect is just playing with words and I do sometimes wonder if it is undertaken by certain members to stifle debate. This is not the only thread on which it occurs.

This is a forum where members post their thoughts and opinions. We are not compiling a paper for a university degree or a court report. Most sensible people can feel alarm and concern for a vulnerable child. The label attached to that concern is neither here nor there.

by kary 18.05.10 8:38

justagrannynow 1 wrote:IMO this nitpicking type of discussion about abuse/neglect is just playing with words and I do sometimes wonder if it is undertaken by certain members to stifle debate. This is not the only thread on which it occurs.

This is a forum where members post their thoughts and opinions. We are not compiling a paper for a university degree or a court report. Most sensible people can feel alarm and concern for a vulnerable child. The label attached to that concern is neither here nor there.

How very true, Justagrannynow1. The child is more important than words, tennis, jogging, dining and getting rat-arsed. After all, they're 'our' future.

by baconbutty 18.05.10 9:08

A small child existed on this planet.
She no longer exists in living form.
Her parents had the primary duty of care for her.
No semantic digressions will alter that.

Anger? You bet.
Justifiable? You bet.

And let's remember all the other innocent people who have been used and abused in this sick charade.
No semantic digressions will alter that.

Anger? You bet.
Justifiable? You bet.

by twinkle 21.05.10 18:13

Neglect is of course abuse, but it is also a very grey area in terms of bringing a prosecution.
Neglect is a picture that is built up over a period of time. Various agencies need to be involved for the picture to form. It may start with school becoming concerned about a family or child, logs would be made until it became clear that there were issues that needed attention. Contact would be made to the parents/carers by the school under the safeguarding policy and relevant agencies alerted if necessary. Building the picture of neglect is a long process if there are no other signs such as physical abuse to support it. Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

by Judge Mental 21.05.10 18:24

twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

THE McCANNS, THE PUBLIC'S JUSTIFIABLE ANGER 234726

THE McCANNS, THE PUBLIC'S JUSTIFIABLE ANGER 234726

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. THE McCANNS, THE PUBLIC'S JUSTIFIABLE ANGER 234726

There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

by twinkle 21.05.10 18:36

Judge Mental wrote:twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need.

I would be interested in finding out where you get your information from regarding the underlined part of your post, any statistics to go with them.
Hopefully it isn't from sensationalist tabloid rags who consistantly fail to report on the real issues.

by pudsgirl 21.05.10 19:14

twinkle wrote:Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

Even though one of the children has been missing for 3 years because of that neglect?

by twinkle 21.05.10 19:40

Neglect in the eyes of the law isn't something that is instantly proved by someone making one report or phone call, or even an admission. It is a long process, hence why in this country the McCanns would not be prosecuted by their actions over a week.

by twinkle 21.05.10 19:41

pudsgirl wrote:
twinkle wrote:Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

Even though one of the children has been missing for 3 years because of that neglect?

No, hence why they haven't.

Opinion is one thing, law is another.

by Autumn 21.05.10 20:32

twinkle wrote:
Judge Mental wrote:twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need.

I would be interested in finding out where you get your information from regarding the underlined part of your post, any statistics to go with them.
Hopefully it isn't from sensationalist tabloid rags who consistantly fail to report on the real issues.

Oh come off it Twinkle. You know perfectly well that the McCanns, had they lived on a sink estate, would most certainly have been prosecuted for neglecting their very young children. Yes the stystem is flawed but, nonetheless, people from poor backgrounds have been given custodial sentences for doing as the McCanns did.

by twinkle 21.05.10 20:42

Autumn wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Judge Mental wrote:twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need.

I would be interested in finding out where you get your information from regarding the underlined part of your post, any statistics to go with them.
Hopefully it isn't from sensationalist tabloid rags who consistantly fail to report on the real issues.

Oh come off it Twinkle. You know perfectly well that the McCanns, had they lived on a sink estate, would most certainly have been prosecuted for neglecting their very young children. Yes the stystem is flawed but, nonetheless, people from poor backgrounds have been given custodial sentences for doing as the McCanns did.

No I won't come off it. I work with the above mentioned kids that come off the "sink estate" many who are living in dire situations, whose parents aren't prosecuted for leaving their kids, who aren't prosecuted for not feeding them,who aren't prosecuted for not getting them to school, who aren't prosecuted for letting them wander the streets till all hours.
There are thousands of invisible children out there who are being subject to neglect and pyschological damage daily, whose parents aren't prosecuted. Believe me I'm not quoting from some shock value tabloid here, I am speaking from my knowledge of working with these children everyday.
Pity some people whose passion is so strong to help vunerable children don't invest some of their time actually doing something positive by maybe working with agencies involved in this instead of focussing on one set of parents they believe are neglectful...........when the reality is there are many who are, and many, many children out there who do need help everyday.

by pudsgirl 21.05.10 21:31

twinkle wrote:
Autumn wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Judge Mental wrote:twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need.

I would be interested in finding out where you get your information from regarding the underlined part of your post, any statistics to go with them.
Hopefully it isn't from sensationalist tabloid rags who consistantly fail to report on the real issues.

Oh come off it Twinkle. You know perfectly well that the McCanns, had they lived on a sink estate, would most certainly have been prosecuted for neglecting their very young children. Yes the stystem is flawed but, nonetheless, people from poor backgrounds have been given custodial sentences for doing as the McCanns did.

No I won't come off it. I work with the above mentioned kids that come off the "sink estate" many who are living in dire situations, whose parents aren't prosecuted for leaving their kids, who aren't prosecuted for not feeding them,who aren't prosecuted for not getting them to school, who aren't prosecuted for letting them wander the streets till all hours.
There are thousands of invisible children out there who are being subject to neglect and pyschological damage daily, whose parents aren't prosecuted. Believe me I'm not quoting from some shock value tabloid here, I am speaking from my knowledge of working with these children everyday.
Pity some people whose passion is so strong to help vunerable children don't invest some of their time actually doing something positive by maybe working with agencies involved in this instead of focussing on one set of parents they believe are neglectful...........when the reality is there are many who are, and many, many children out there who do need help everyday.

But by your logic there doesn't seem to be much point helping these kids then if the system is failing and parents don't get prosecuted.

You say "it's a pity some people don't get involved...." but we can't change the system, we can't take the children away to safe houses, we can't interfere without being prosecuted ourselves, so the answer must be to not care about child abuse/neglect, to turn a blind eye as the system does? Or maybe the answer is to be pro-active like TB, make a lot of noise, and hope someone will listen and change the system? Someone has to make a noise for these kids which is what TB and his MF members are doing. If Madeleine's case isn't addressed and resolved then there will be other Madeleine's and one Madeleine is one too many.

What are these agencies you talk about? Because they don't seem to be doing a great job when you see the amount of neglected and abused kids in this world. What on earth can be done to help them when the system is so flawed that they can't help these kids satifactorily themselves? How will more people working in these agencies help when it would seem they are not much more than toothless dogs and children continue to be abused in spite of these agencies that are supposed to be there to protect them?

by littlepixie 21.05.10 21:42

I think the reason people focus on the McCanns is becuase they are constantly telling us to by begging for money. I have heard it from those who deal with these things that the McCanns wouldnt have been prosecuted under UK law for leaving their children and that could be precisely why they admit to doing it. They want people to know they were not there when whatever happened, happened.

I know first hand that there are many neglected children walking the streets at all hours, I have met some of them, but most are over 4 years of age.

I do think social services would have given them more than a passing glance due to Yvonne Martin and the Gaspars statements and the fact that their daughter is now missing.

eta. They are crying out for qualified social workers at the moment - look on any of the job circle websites - every other advert on the radio is for foster parents - there is a crisis in this country regarding abused children IMO

by twinkle 21.05.10 22:05

pudsgirl wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Autumn wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Judge Mental wrote:twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need.

I would be interested in finding out where you get your information from regarding the underlined part of your post, any statistics to go with them.
Hopefully it isn't from sensationalist tabloid rags who consistantly fail to report on the real issues.

Oh come off it Twinkle. You know perfectly well that the McCanns, had they lived on a sink estate, would most certainly have been prosecuted for neglecting their very young children. Yes the stystem is flawed but, nonetheless, people from poor backgrounds have been given custodial sentences for doing as the McCanns did.

No I won't come off it. I work with the above mentioned kids that come off the "sink estate" many who are living in dire situations, whose parents aren't prosecuted for leaving their kids, who aren't prosecuted for not feeding them,who aren't prosecuted for not getting them to school, who aren't prosecuted for letting them wander the streets till all hours.
There are thousands of invisible children out there who are being subject to neglect and pyschological damage daily, whose parents aren't prosecuted. Believe me I'm not quoting from some shock value tabloid here, I am speaking from my knowledge of working with these children everyday.
Pity some people whose passion is so strong to help vunerable children don't invest some of their time actually doing something positive by maybe working with agencies involved in this instead of focussing on one set of parents they believe are neglectful...........when the reality is there are many who are, and many, many children out there who do need help everyday.

But by your logic there doesn't seem to be much point helping these kids then if the system is failing and parents don't get prosecuted.

You say "it's a pity some people don't get involved...." but we can't change the system, we can't take the children away to safe houses, we can't interfere without being prosecuted ourselves, so the answer must be to not care about child abuse/neglect, to turn a blind eye as the system does? Or maybe the answer is to be pro-active like TB, make a lot of noise, and hope someone will listen and change the system? Someone has to make a noise for these kids which is what TB and his MF members are doing. If Madeleine's case isn't addressed and resolved then there will be other Madeleine's and one Madeleine is one too many.

What are these agencies you talk about? Because they don't seem to be doing a great job when you see the amount of neglected and abused kids in this world. What on earth can be done to help them when the system is so flawed that they can't help these kids satifactorily themselves? How will more people working in these agencies help when it would seem they are not much more than toothless dogs and children continue to be abused in spite of these agencies that are supposed to be there to protect them?

You are entitled to your opinion but I suggest you do a little research before you box the whole thing off as a bad job. There is always a way to help.........of course you have to be prepared to do so.

by twinkle 21.05.10 22:09

littlepixie wrote:I think the reason people focus on the McCanns is becuase they are constantly telling us to by begging for money. I have heard it from those who deal with these things that the McCanns wouldnt have been prosecuted under UK law for leaving their children and that could be precisely why they admit to doing it. They want people to know they were not there when whatever happened, happened.

I know first hand that there are many neglected children walking the streets at all hours, I have met some of them, but most are over 4 years of age.

I do think social services would have given them more than a passing glance due to Yvonne Martin and the Gaspars statements and the fact that their daughter is now missing.

eta. They are crying out for qualified social workers at the moment - look on any of the job circle websites - every other advert on the radio is for foster parents - there is a crisis in this country regarding abused children IMO

Not so sure it is a new situation, just more emphasis put on it now. But I agree that there is a problem. So many people just don't realise it is happening everyday.
I do wonder if the increase in children with EBD has been a factor in more research being done into the causes of why children are displaying such challenging behaviour.

by twinkle 21.05.10 22:28

I do feel like I am ranting slightly, but this isn't directed at anyone personally.
I just feel a huge amount of sadness at three years of time spent parading the McCanns as the evil of bad parenting.......believe me they wouldn't even make it into the top 100.
So much time arguing when it could be spent helping vunerable children. Let's face facts, most people became involved in this because of their compassion for a child.
From my view as a mother I totally agree that they did wrong, they shouldn't have done it.......it horrified me. But that has been said over and over it gets us nowhere.
If people feel so much passion for children, why not get involved with The Children's Society, Barnardos, Victims of domestic abuse,NSPCC, fostering. Do something positive with that passion and make a difference to a child, instead of concentrating on one set of parents..........when there are many out there who need help. Three years of what.........three years of bickering, personal grudges, pathetic forum wars, holier than thou bollocks. What a waste.

by Autumn 21.05.10 22:43

twinkle wrote:
pudsgirl wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Autumn wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Judge Mental wrote:twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need.

I would be interested in finding out where you get your information from regarding the underlined part of your post, any statistics to go with them.
Hopefully it isn't from sensationalist tabloid rags who consistantly fail to report on the real issues.

Oh come off it Twinkle. You know perfectly well that the McCanns, had they lived on a sink estate, would most certainly have been prosecuted for neglecting their very young children. Yes the stystem is flawed but, nonetheless, people from poor backgrounds have been given custodial sentences for doing as the McCanns did.

No I won't come off it. I work with the above mentioned kids that come off the "sink estate" many who are living in dire situations, whose parents aren't prosecuted for leaving their kids, who aren't prosecuted for not feeding them,who aren't prosecuted for not getting them to school, who aren't prosecuted for letting them wander the streets till all hours.
There are thousands of invisible children out there who are being subject to neglect and pyschological damage daily, whose parents aren't prosecuted. Believe me I'm not quoting from some shock value tabloid here, I am speaking from my knowledge of working with these children everyday.
Pity some people whose passion is so strong to help vunerable children don't invest some of their time actually doing something positive by maybe working with agencies involved in this instead of focussing on one set of parents they believe are neglectful...........when the reality is there are many who are, and many, many children out there who do need help everyday.

But by your logic there doesn't seem to be much point helping these kids then if the system is failing and parents don't get prosecuted.

You say "it's a pity some people don't get involved...." but we can't change the system, we can't take the children away to safe houses, we can't interfere without being prosecuted ourselves, so the answer must be to not care about child abuse/neglect, to turn a blind eye as the system does? Or maybe the answer is to be pro-active like TB, make a lot of noise, and hope someone will listen and change the system? Someone has to make a noise for these kids which is what TB and his MF members are doing. If Madeleine's case isn't addressed and resolved then there will be other Madeleine's and one Madeleine is one too many.

What are these agencies you talk about? Because they don't seem to be doing a great job when you see the amount of neglected and abused kids in this world. What on earth can be done to help them when the system is so flawed that they can't help these kids satifactorily themselves? How will more people working in these agencies help when it would seem they are not much more than toothless dogs and children continue to be abused in spite of these agencies that are supposed to be there to protect them?

You are entitled to your opinion but I suggest you do a little research before you box the whole thing off as a bad job. There is always a way to help.........of course you have to be prepared to do so.

And all credit to Tony Bennett and his MF members for their commitment to changing the system, lets hope the powers that be sit up and take some notice.

by twinkle 21.05.10 22:50

Autumn wrote:
twinkle wrote:
pudsgirl wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Autumn wrote:
twinkle wrote:
Judge Mental wrote:twinkle wrote ................. 'Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

******************************************************************************

Perhaps we should run this by many of the people whose children are currently on the at-risk register because their parents were late on more than one occasion in collecting their children from school. Or even conduct a series of random interviews with some residents of the nation's housing estates who know only too well what happens when you leave your children alone to sit with a neighbour or go for a night out. There appears to be a two-tiered system when dishing out prosecutions in the UK. Whereas Portugal has well-defined laws.

Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need.

I would be interested in finding out where you get your information from regarding the underlined part of your post, any statistics to go with them.
Hopefully it isn't from sensationalist tabloid rags who consistantly fail to report on the real issues.

Oh come off it Twinkle. You know perfectly well that the McCanns, had they lived on a sink estate, would most certainly have been prosecuted for neglecting their very young children. Yes the stystem is flawed but, nonetheless, people from poor backgrounds have been given custodial sentences for doing as the McCanns did.

No I won't come off it. I work with the above mentioned kids that come off the "sink estate" many who are living in dire situations, whose parents aren't prosecuted for leaving their kids, who aren't prosecuted for not feeding them,who aren't prosecuted for not getting them to school, who aren't prosecuted for letting them wander the streets till all hours.
There are thousands of invisible children out there who are being subject to neglect and pyschological damage daily, whose parents aren't prosecuted. Believe me I'm not quoting from some shock value tabloid here, I am speaking from my knowledge of working with these children everyday.
Pity some people whose passion is so strong to help vunerable children don't invest some of their time actually doing something positive by maybe working with agencies involved in this instead of focussing on one set of parents they believe are neglectful...........when the reality is there are many who are, and many, many children out there who do need help everyday.

But by your logic there doesn't seem to be much point helping these kids then if the system is failing and parents don't get prosecuted.

You say "it's a pity some people don't get involved...." but we can't change the system, we can't take the children away to safe houses, we can't interfere without being prosecuted ourselves, so the answer must be to not care about child abuse/neglect, to turn a blind eye as the system does? Or maybe the answer is to be pro-active like TB, make a lot of noise, and hope someone will listen and change the system? Someone has to make a noise for these kids which is what TB and his MF members are doing. If Madeleine's case isn't addressed and resolved then there will be other Madeleine's and one Madeleine is one too many.

What are these agencies you talk about? Because they don't seem to be doing a great job when you see the amount of neglected and abused kids in this world. What on earth can be done to help them when the system is so flawed that they can't help these kids satifactorily themselves? How will more people working in these agencies help when it would seem they are not much more than toothless dogs and children continue to be abused in spite of these agencies that are supposed to be there to protect them?

You are entitled to your opinion but I suggest you do a little research before you box the whole thing off as a bad job. There is always a way to help.........of course you have to be prepared to do so.

And all credit to Tony Bennett and his MF members for their commitment to changing the system, lets hope the powers that be sit up and take some notice.

Sorry I am at a loss at how the subject of TB has randomly been placed into this. Have you no comment on my other posts. I would be genuinely interested in people's opinion..

by **Jill Havern** 21.05.10 22:55

twinkle wrote:I do feel like I am ranting slightly, but this isn't directed at anyone personally.
I just feel a huge amount of sadness at three years of time spent parading the McCanns as the evil of bad parenting.......believe me they wouldn't even make it into the top 100.

Had it not been for the blood and cadaver I'm sure many people would have moved on from this tragic case. But the McCanns won't let people move on, though, will they because they're in the news at any given opportunity asking us to remember Maddie and help find her.

Personally I would love to see the McCanns proven innocent but I don't think they are and that's what keeps me interested in this case because I want to know if they are or not and I want to see justice for Maddie. I don't want to see the perpetrator/s of this crime get away with 'it' - whatever 'it' is. If the McCanns had anything to do with this, then I don't want them to get away with it, especially if Maddie is dead and they know it. If they honestly had nothing to do with 'it' then I want to see their name cleared properly in that they are absolved of any suspicion and they receive apologies and compensation.

If I was Maddie's parent and I was innocent I would have done everything to help the investigation and keep it open, and the fact that the McCanns didn't do that doesn't exactly look good which is why many people think they are the ones getting away with 'it' and not some 'abductor'.

If it ever transpires that Maddie is dead and that her parents were involved and did indeed fake her abduction then I think that "parading the McCanns as the evil of bad parenting" hasn't been a waste of three years and that they would, indeed, make it into the top 100.

by twinkle 21.05.10 23:07

jkh wrote:
twinkle wrote:I do feel like I am ranting slightly, but this isn't directed at anyone personally.
I just feel a huge amount of sadness at three years of time spent parading the McCanns as the evil of bad parenting.......believe me they wouldn't even make it into the top 100.

Had it not been for the blood and cadaver I'm sure many people would have moved on from this tragic case. But the McCanns won't let people move on, though, will they because they're in the news at any given opportunity asking us to remember Maddie and help find her.

Personally I would love to see the McCanns proven innocent but I don't think they are and that's what keeps me interested in this case because I want to know if they are or not and I want to see justice for Maddie. I don't want to see the perpetrator/s of this crime get away with 'it' - whatever 'it' is. If the McCanns had anything to do with this, then I don't want them to get away with it, especially if Maddie is dead and they know it. If they honestly had nothing to do with 'it' then I want to see their name cleared properly in that they are absolved of any suspicion and they receive apologies and compensation.

If I was Maddie's parent and I was innocent I would have done everything to help the investigation and keep it open, and the fact that the McCanns didn't do that doesn't exactly look good which is why many people think they are the ones getting away with 'it' and not some 'abductor'.

If it ever transpires that Maddie is dead and that her parents were involved and did indeed fake her abduction then I think that "parading the McCanns as the evil of bad parenting" hasn't been a waste of three years and that they would, indeed, make it into the top 100.

Very fair point Jill, thanks for the reply.

by Judge Mental 22.05.10 0:42

'Sorry your post is misleading and ridiculous. I work with many children who should be on the at risk register who aren't, the system is flawed sadly.........many children live in horrendous conditions who aren't recieving the help that they need .................. Pity some people whose passion is so strong to help vunerable children don't invest some of their time actually doing something positive by maybe working with agencies involved in this instead of focussing on one set of parents they believe are neglectful...........when the reality is there are many who are, and many, many children out there who do need help everyday.'

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Has it ever crossd your mind that a great many of the people who wish to find out what really happened to Madeleine may already be working with or within agencies?

One is of course assuming that all the children you work with are most promptly assessed for the register as soon as you personally inform the authorities of your observations? Perhaps you would be better placed at this moment in helping those children you know personally, who live in 'horrendous conditions', than watching us go around in circles repeating ourselves over and over at the injustice of it all, whilst you try to defend the indefensible by making out that the Tapas 9 used normal and accepted parenting skills.

by justagrannynow 1 22.05.10 7:00

twinkle wrote:Neglect is of course abuse, but it is also a very grey area in terms of bringing a prosecution.
Neglect is a picture that is built up over a period of time. Various agencies need to be involved for the picture to form. It may start with school becoming concerned about a family or child, logs would be made until it became clear that there were issues that needed attention. Contact would be made to the parents/carers by the school under the safeguarding policy and relevant agencies alerted if necessary. Building the picture of neglect is a long process if there are no other signs such as physical abuse to support it. Certainly a week of doing what the McCanns did would not have brought any prosecution in this country however people feel about it.

I would take issue with the last sentence of this post. Prosecution might not have been the end result, but the circumstances would have been investigated, assessed and recorded for possible future referrals.
All I can add is that if the McCanns had been holidaying in England and the duty social worker had received a referral at 9.30pm that there were 3 children under 4 years of age, alone in an unlocked apartment, it would have warranted an emergency visit. The social worker, on finding the children alone as reported, would have had no option but to remove them all to a Place of Safety. Even if the parents had turned up it would have made no difference as the social worker would have no way of knowing if they would not just clear off again when the social worker left. Class would not have come into it. That was the law.
Once the emergency had been dealt with, the circumstances would be investigated, police, medical reports, social reports etc If it had been a one off and there were no other concerns about the family, it is quite possible that the children would have been returned, but if the ongoing assessment revealed that the children had been regularly left alone, that a neighbour had complained about one of the children crying for over an hour one night, and the Gaspars had made their statements, then nobody can say whether or not a prosecution would ensue. We do not know what other issues an assessment would reveal, so prosecution can be neither confirmed or discarded based solely on what we, members of a forum, know.

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I have been retired for many years so accept that the above post could be out of date. If so, perhaps that is why there does seem to be an upsurge these days of vulnerable children being let down. There have always been failures, but they do seem to occur more frequently now. No criticism intended to any current child care workers. I think we had better support and backup in my day.