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JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

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JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.05.12 22:00

This case went to the Portuguese Appeal Court and then to the Supreme Court.

Here, the Supreme Court sets out, in a very lenghty judgment, the 63 facts found proved in relation to the murderers of 8-year-old Joana Cipriano: Leonor and Joao Cipriano, mother and uncle of Joana respectivley.

The English translation is not good, but there is sufficient here for no-one to be left in nay doubt why they were convicted.

Yet - yet - there are small groups of strange individuals out there on the internet who, though deluded, apparently believe with all sincerity that these two murderers are wholly innocent and have been deliberately framed.

Why?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

II. RATIONALE

9. Facts according to court appeal

9. 1. Facts found:

a) the defendants are brothers [siblings - T.B.] to each other;

b) the defendant AA never had certain jobs or residence, living inside a car, or home of his brothers, surviving at the expense of odd jobs, carried out in various locations;

c) the defendant AA manifests contempt for human life - the result of social maladjustment and emotional coldness - anti-sociais/psicopáticas trends and has difficulty with impulse control, which leads him to be aggressive, trying to resolve conflicts through such aggressiveness, feeling no remorse for the consequences of acts that so conducts, trampling on the rights, wishes or feelings of others;

d) by a final judgment, and judgment of 10.11.1993, the defendant was convicted in AA penalty of four years in prison for practicing on 10.02.1992, a crime as attempted murder, p. and p. the arts. 22, 23, 74 and 131 of the Code Penal, consisting of such judgment that the defendant was persuaded by a third party who lived with a sister of the accused (GG) to take the life of another before had left him blind, exchange for $ 20,000 00 and a motor tricycle (see the certificate of fls. 675 ss which is hereby incorporated by play for all legal purposes);

e) the defendant expresses BB socially deviant behavior in terms of norms, values ​​and responsibilities, emotional instability and difficulty in expressing frustration with their socialization interpersonal relationships characterized by immature, superficial and narcissistic, which are salient features of manipulation (for satisfaction of own needs) and aggression (particularly sadistic tone), stressing in his personality the absence of empathy and insensitivity, which leads to contempt for the rights of the defendant, needs and feelings of others, for those driving their aggression, with weak capacity to feel remorse, have borderline personality traits with anti-sociais/psicopáticos, narcissistic and schizoid;

f) the defendant BB, who had six children by five relationships throughout his life has come to show some disinterest in older children;

g) in relation to the eldest daughter, EE, currently live as father and grandmother in Olhão, there left him with 11 months of age, it is never interesting, not healing to know the same for 14 years;

h) the second son, FF, who lived with her paternal grandmother and lives with a paternal aunt in Messines, was also left handed them to his father, is not it more interesting;

i) the fourth son, HH, who now lives with his father in Porches, when she was seven months was left by the defendant BB alone at home, secure in the chair, having thus been found by neighbors who were aware of the situation;

j) at the time the defendant went to live with BB II, the relationship that he had two sons, JJ and KK;

l) the third son had been CC, born 31.05.1996, daughter of LL;

m) the smallest DC, in September 2004, was 8 years old, thin and with a height between 1.20 meters and 1.40 meters, (2)

n) the smallest CC was sometimes sad;

o) the defendant BB did not pursue any occupation;

p) when the defendant was living with a partner II, the smallest CC helped her mother in some household chores, and sometimes helped clean the house, was the younger brothers and shopped;

q) before the defendant BB to find living with a partner II, intended that fail to have the lowest CC in charge, having left it, with 5 months of age with his father, LL - who was not related since the early pregnancy - which ended up a 'giving back' about 2 days later, and later returned to deliver it to the father, who did not want to stick with it;

r) in September 2003, the defendant left the BB CC delivered to a couple of people with alcohol problems and a daughter in bed with infectious disease, in a house without any conditions, for about two or three weeks;

s) on the first day of classes in the lower DC Primary School Figueira, in the academic year 2003/2004, the defendant did not follow the BB to the lower school, having come to DC with a neighbor, who asked not to help find way;

t) from another time, it led to lower neighbor to the hospital, at a time when it was visible being sick with a bad cough;

u) at dawn on September 12, 2004, the defendant AA, after having incompatibilizado UU with his brother, was raised to BB's house, carrying her clothes, and by day 12, remained in the house, situated in the village of Figueira - Mexilhoeira Grande, in Portimão area of ​​this region;

v) in the late afternoon of that day 12 returned home to his sister, the defendant BB, and the children of this, CC, JJ and KK;

x) at about 20 pm that day on September 12, the defendant sent the BB CC purchase a carton of milk and two cans at an establishment called "Pastry ...", located in Figueira, about 420 meters from the house ;

z) the room of the house where the defendant resided BB, is located immediately after the entrance into the house and the door which gives access to the street has a handle on the outside that allows immediate entry to the residence;

aa) the smallest CC returned home coming "Pastry ...", where he had purchased the food mentioned above;

ab) at any given time, for reasons not specifically determined, both defendants began together to give repeated blows to the head of the lower CC, leading her to hit her head on the corner of the wall, which is visible bleeding from the mouth nose and temple, thanks to the wall of conflicts, which also caused the collapse of the lower and death, then stopping the activity of the defendants;

ac) were the smallest traces of blood on the walls and floor of the room in various places, and also near the entrance;

ad) the accused made sure of the death of CC, verifying that did not breathe or react and then not wanting to be blamed for the death of his daughter and niece, decided to prevent any such death was known to others;

ae) well, soon decided they had to make was not found in the house that there are any signs of what had just finished practice, the lower body was never found and that, preferably, be created in the belief that all the least would have been taken by others;

af) therefore, the defendant was in BB house, washing the wall and floor where there were signs of blood DC, and the place where the minor was dropped after death, using either a mop bucket and its;

ag), and as they knew that the companion of defendant BB - II - and this friend, MM, were about to get home and can find out what had happened if there came to be cleared before the remains at about 21h 30m AA left the defendant, addressing the "Pastry ....", where he met with the II and MM, who were already there, and who said that the smaller CC had not returned home;

ah) when the three returned home, the defendant BB had already cleaned the bloodstains found there, and also noted that the smaller CC had not returned home after making purchases;

ai) compared to that by the defendant, the MM II and decided to go look for the smallest, while the defendants were in the house;

aj) then decided the defendants, jointly cut the lower body to allow the same store in freezer of your room; to achieve that goal, the defendants muniram up a knife and a saw to cut metal that were in housing, tools able to get the results they wanted, in the span of about 30 minutes;

al) with such tools, helping each other, the defendants cut the body of the CC, separating the head from the trunk and cutting the legs by the knee area;

an) bits of each body was placed in bags of plastic - in the head, trunk, and in another part of the legs and the two legs below the knees in a third - and after they have a node at the opening of the bag containing the head , tried at least three bags in place such freezer compartments, leaving the smaller blood in various parts of the interior of the second drawer cabinet;

ao) the defendants did not put the shoes that had the smallest shoe bags, having stayed home all pairs of shoes that used the least that summer;

ap) for the lowest ever be dead for about two hours, the body has not left much blood;

aq) between 22h 30m and 23h, the defendant joined the BB II and MM companion, to whom reiterated that the CC had disappeared, and only then moved to "Pastry ....." and asked the owner (NN) if the CC had been there, saying after she had disappeared;

ar) however, the defendant informed of anything the police, despite the GNR military service in Figueira, since there arose a popular festival called "Festival of the Cockle," was the third person (NN) that did, telephone, 0h and 44m for the September 13, when he learned that the defendant had not done yet, and as a result of the aforementioned phone call, the defendant ended up talking to the GNR elements of Figueira near the church;

as) at the time the defendant said he had not phoned for not having money in the phone;

at) later, at about 2 am, the defendant bought cakes at a bakery located in the same locality;

au) on the morning of the 13th, the defendant went to the BB Tour GNR in Lagos, accompanied by the defendant AA, where he lodged a complaint with the disappearance of CC;

av) and third party intervention, family II of his companion, began to be truly widespread the alleged 'disappearance' and distributed photographs of the CC, because until then the defendants had intended not to alert the authorities;

ax) in the late evening of day 13, the defendants left the house together, taking a bag;

az) AA the defendant remained at the home of defendant BB to 14 days, length of time during which the two defendants, so that was not possible to determine, transported the remains of CC to an unknown location, thereby giving effect to the intention who had proposed - to prevent the location of those remains - even today it is not located such remains as were not located the cutting tools used, the defendants hid in unknown location;

aaa) the defendant BB gave interviews to the media, trying to make believe that he had actually gone lower, version before that held many of the people who were interested in the fate of smaller and questioned about the matter;

aab) in these interviews about the case the defendant BB sometimes spoke of her daughter in the past and was wearing black blouse;

aac) ticks, including so-called "pellets" (ticks in its early adulthood) have receivers chemical stimuli associated with the temperature which allow them to detect the existence of the own chemical components of blood;

aad) in 18.9 days, the defendant BB acquired oil and a mop of steel, which washed the house, taking advantage to erase almost all signs of what had occurred there, leaving only traces of human blood inside the house, contaminated the products used;

aae) a nominee of defendant BB, criminal investigation police officers traveled to the home of the paternal grandmother of the eldest daughter of the defendant BB (EE) in Olhão, looking for the CC, and investigated whether a person of Moroccan nationality would have taken the smallest;

afa) when present at a clinical psychologist in the context of expertise within the sphere of the case, the defendant BB referred to the existence of some neighboring Brazilian nationals who might have brought with them to DC, because that would have two cars "good" and have been would come away from the location on the same date on which the smallest had "disappeared";

aag) following particulars of the defendant AA, PJ sought elements of the body of the CC in a landfill next to the brown dirt road that gives access to Mexilhoeira then other places nearby, still in Poco Barreto, a car crashed in Silves, under the bridge over the Rio Arade;

aah) the defendants were able to disrupt the activities of research and prevented the location of the remains of the lower CC who had retired life;

aai) activities described above were carried out by the defendants in concerted efforts and intentions, deliberately, free and conscious, and knowing those behaviors are punished by law;

aaj) as well as regards the taking of life in DC, your direct family (daughter and niece), which they did by force, taking advantage of the same can not defend itself (taking into account the age and physique ) and employing well know that the force, with regard to where they reached the vital body (head) repeatedly and violence, causing the head embatesse lower wall, it could take life, which result agreed , yet this does not cease its activity;


aal) not hindering such a circumstance the less to be dependent on the mother and family of both direct and should be defended by them and not the victim;

aam) so too deliberate, free, conscious and knowing the criminality of conduct, carried out the action described above to cut the body of CC, showing total insensitivity, knowing that so offended the community due respect to the dead, acting with a view to the body of CC would no longer be found, hiding it in a place not suitable for this purpose, so try not to be blamed for his death;

aan) the defendant does not BB criminal records;

aao) the defendant AA, in addition to the abovementioned conviction in e), was also convicted in 1995 for a final judgment and the commission of a crime of robbery, in pity, concurrent with the sentence imposed for the crime of attempted murder, 3 years and 8 months in prison, in 2001, a crime by driving the vehicle illegally, was sentenced by final judgment, the penalty of a fine of 90 days, and in 2003, the practice of a crime of illegal vehicle driving, was sentenced by final judgment, the penalty of six months and 15 days imprisonment, suspended on probation upon fulfillment of conditions, from the suspension to be revoked;

aap) as qualifications, the defendant has the BB 3rd class, never had any profession and married 18 years;

aaq) as qualifications, the defendant has the AA grade 4 and since leaving school started working, but always working undifferentiated services and no employment;

aas) the defendants were born within a family (parents and nine siblings), which highlighted the alcoholic habits of the father and the economic difficulties.

____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".  Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".   

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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by mira2 on 01.06.12 0:32

Tony,

The case of Joanna was nothing remotely to do with Madeliene McCann.

Joanna's case is a tool being used by McCann Inc. to discredit the only person who can bring justice to Madeleine.

The real story about Joanna and her life needs to be told for the world to understand how sick her mother was, and let it be told the real story about Joanna's brothers and sisters, then see how long it takes for Saint Kate to distance herself. I know that here are restrictions on reporting here due to the minors rights, but there has to also be a safeguard that prevents anyone abusing those restrictions ?

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More on Joana

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.06.12 0:58

@mira2 wrote:Tony,

The case of Joana was nothing remotely to do with Madeleine McCann.

The claim that she had been tortured by Dr Goncalo Amaral (and others), and the prosecution, actually began before Madeleine was reported missing. The most interesting thing for me is exactly what led up to Marcos Aragao Corriea (who was employed by Metodo 3, who in turn were paid by the McCann Team), pitching up at Odemira Women's Prison on 8 April 2008, having a cosy chat with the Director of the Women's Prison there, and then acting as Leonor Cipriano's solicitor, replacing the one she had already.

Joana's case is a tool being used by McCann Inc. to discredit the only person who can bring justice to Madeleine.

I decline to comment on this.

The real story about Joana and her life needs to be told for the world to understand how sick her mother was,

She was evil rather than 'sick'.

and let it be told the real story about Joana's brothers and sisters, then see how long it takes for Saint Kate to distance herself.

I think we can safely say that many of them were fostered out and adopted.

I know that here are restrictions on reporting here due to the minors' rights, but there has to also be a safeguard that prevents anyone abusing those restrictions?

I do not think there is any restriction in general terms in explaining how they came to be adopted etc., but the details of what they endured - and any details about where they are now - would be prohibited in this country and no doubt in Portugal too.

The British mainstream press are also very culpable here for not correctly reporting the Cipriano case; they have done the British public a disservice by their gross misreporting. How many British newspapers have given Dr Goncalo Amaral any credit for bringing the evil pair Leonor and Joao Cipriano to justice and for securing their convictions?


____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".  Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".   

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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by mira2 on 01.06.12 1:52

I do not think there is any restriction in general terms in explaining how they came to be adopted etc., but the details of what they endured - and any details about where they are now - would be prohibited in this country and no doubt in Portugal too.

The British mainstream press are also very culpable here for not correctly reporting the Cipriano case; they have done the British public a disservice by their gross misreporting. How many British newspapers have given Dr Goncalo Amaral any credit for bringing the evil pair Leonor and Joao Cipriano to justice and for securing their convictions?


_______

And there lies the problem. WE know for a fact that the dynamics of this family is a horror story that went far beyond the Joanna story, WE know that Joanna was not the only victim in that family she had siblings who were victims too, their stories cannot be told because they were lucky enough to be rescued ALIVE and adopted by suitable families.

What is interesting here is the fact that McCann Inc. felt that linking Madeleine and Joanna was a good marketing ploy in their defence tactic.

Lets face it Kate McCann wants to compare herself with Joanna's Mum? 2 peas in a pod or what?

Tony, the problem with the British Press is that it is not fit for practice. The red tape involved in recruiting in the media whether it be news outlets or TV stations, ensures that only the brain dead get selected, and even then the contract they have to sign ensures that they never vere from the mantra that is deemed acceptable across the board.

There are still good independent journalists out there, but they are few and far between, they have a conscience, for them it is not about the money.

Is it any wonder that the kids out there today have resorted to looting and wild west gangsta me kill him before he kill me, rather than engage with the nonsense that is going on in Whitehall.

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Re Tinmans981 explains how ridiclously easy it would have been for an abductor to snatch Madeleine without being seen or heard by anybody and then drive off imeadiately in a car.

Post by sijm on 01.06.12 18:26

The old adage is, There is no smoke without fire!

To gain the truth one must take in all accounts and I am only interested in the truth, So I ask myself, could these allagations of torture of Joana Cipriano have some substance, maybe, just maybe it plays a part in the UK Government's resistance to send the McCanns to Portugal to face this alleged rough treatment by the seemingly rough handling of the Potuguese police also they could have learnt a lot from the Rachel Charles murder case.

Rachel Charles was a little girl who was living with her parents, not that far far from Praia da Luz, Rachel was a few years older than Madeleine when she was abducted and strangled, her body found dumped by the side of the highway.

One British business man named Michael Cook was arrested and charged with her abduction and murder, Cook said he was fitted up by the Potuguese police and that the evidence against him was inconclusive and reading over the case that seems possible.

Cook also claimed he had been tortured into making a confession and an MP took up his case, even to presented it at the Houses of Parliment.

He (Cook) had been given a 20 year sentence of which I think he served around 19 yrs, interesting point is, that the Portuguese do seem to have some sort of alleged reputation for not being exactly friendly.

So maybe an open mind is what is called for when dealing with people's lives and just maybe there is no smoke without fire?

If you want to look up the Rachel Charles case just tap in Rachel Charles Murder and Portugal, you should get it up

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The rights and the wrongs

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.06.12 18:46

@sijm wrote:The old adage is, 'There is no smoke without fire!'

To gain the truth one must take in all accounts and I am only interested in the truth, so I ask myself, could these allegations of torture of Joana Cipriano have some substance, maybe...
sijm, I have just one question for you, please, and bearing in mind:

(1) that McCann-supporters yesterday were celebrating the 16th birthday of Joana Cipriano, and

(2) that the court which convicted Goncalo Amaral and another of 'filing a false report' did not convict any of the other three officers whom Leonor claimed had tortured her:

Do you think that the judges and jury who convicted Leonor and Joao Cipriano for the brutal murder of Joana were right?

Or wrong?

____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".  Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".   

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sijm

Post by friedtomatoes on 01.06.12 19:06

According to the book called the star of joana written by one of the pj on the case, there was
blood found in the freezer which was tested and proved to be human althoigh a dna profile couldnt be extracted, what do you think of that?

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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.06.12 19:09

@friedtomatoes wrote:According to the book called the Star of Joana written by one of the PJ on the case, there was blood found in the freezer which was tested and proved to be human, although a DNA profile couldn't be extracted, what do you think of that?
Could you please give me a direct answer to my question, thanks.

____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".  Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".   

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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by friedtomatoes on 01.06.12 19:16

Tony, you didnt ask me a question, I was talking to sijm. I may have confused things by putting their name as the title of my post, and might have been seen as them replying, sorry.

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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by Guest on 01.06.12 19:35

A child goes missing [in this case Joana] and HUMAN blood is found in the freezer.
Who's' blood could that be, if it wasn't hers?
Like cadaver scent found in apartment 5A in Praia da Luz. Nobody ever died there.
And there's only one little person missing.
You don't need rocket science to count 1 and 1 together and arrive at 2 ...
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Re: Tinmans 918 explains how ridiculously easy it woul have been for abduction to snatich Madeleine without being seen ......................

Post by sijm on 01.06.12 19:36

I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make. Psychopaths have a mindset, So I am well informed by my Chartered Psychologist daughter, although she has her own views on the Madeleine case from day one.

People should research untill their fingers bleed if they are to get at the truth, I also believe we have been given a very important lead to Madeleine,s abduction by Paulo Cristovao's 5-2-3-1 and why the reason for the ring of steel by UK's Government , but this too is still pure theory backed up with facts, but still theory, not enought proof in a court of law to bring a conviction.

As you know Tony, hard evidence and not second hand counts,, reliable witnesses as the Leveson enquiry's tally shows, e-mails, telephone calls, DNA full match, motive, gain. and the opportunity, dogs evidence has to be backed up with hard evidence such as a body, full DNA,etc.

I too want to find the truth what happened to Maddie and have worked hard for five years to find her, but the truth must be clear enough to bring a conviction in a safe court of law for people's lives are at stake here.

Passions run high when a child goes missing if we were in France so many people would plead crime of passion against libel allegations brought by the McCanns, its more than they have showed.

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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by Guest on 01.06.12 19:49

@sijm wrote:I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make. Psychopaths have a mindset, So I am well informed by my Chartered Psychologist daughter, although she has her own views on the Madeleine case from day one.

People should research untill their fingers bleed if they are to get at the truth, I also believe we have been given a very important lead to Madeleine,s abduction by Paulo Cristovao's 5-2-3-1 and why the reason for the ring of steel by UK's Government , but this too is still pure theory backed up with facts, but still theory, not enought proof in a court of law to bring a conviction.

As you know Tony, hard evidence and not second hand counts,, reliable witnesses as the Leveson enquiry's tally shows, e-mails, telephone calls, DNA full match, motive, gain. and the opportunity, dogs evidence has to be backed up with hard evidence such as a body, full DNA,etc.

I too want to find the truth what happened to Maddie and have worked hard for five years to find her, but the truth must be clear enough to bring a conviction in a safe court of law for people's lives are at stake here.

Passions run high when a child goes missing if we were in France so many people would plead crime of passion against libel allegations brought by the McCanns, its more than they have showed.



No, not necessarily, Suzanne Pilley case and the Adrian Prout case come to mind.
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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by friedtomatoes on 01.06.12 20:10

And Teresa Parker case in usa. Eddie alerted in sept 07, husband charged/convicted in 2009, body found in 2010, thats my recollection

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The strange beliefs of sijm

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.06.12 14:20

@sijm wrote:I would not know [if the judge and jury were right to convict Leonor and Joao Cipriano of murder], I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make...
Thank you for your response, sijm. Though neither me nor anyone else here has suggested that a bad mother and a rough upbringing 'make a murderer'.

And yes, friedtomatoes, your heading your post 'sijm' led me to think that that was sijm's reply. My mistake.

So, sijm, you say: "I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make..."

That didn't directly answer my question, which was: whether you thought the judge and jury were right or wrong to convict the pair of Joana's brutal murder.

But you have in effect provided your answer, which is: "I think the evidence against them was unconvincing and the judge and jury may have got it wrong".

Also, despite the court dismissing Leonor Cipriano's claim that the three detectives beat and tortured her, and despite the many lies and changes of story that emanated from the mouths of the pair of them - Leonor Cipriano especially - you both believe she WAS tortured.

I find these comments interesting, illuminating even.

Just as I found this earlier comment from you, sijm, illiuminating:

"As I have stated before it is my belief, based purely on evidence and structure of the unfolding events, Madeleine was secreted away as a commodity and did not meet with her final fate until June, when it become impossible to contain a four year old screaming, kicking child".

It's hardly surprising that you've not yet broguht us a shred of evidence to support your belief, although you have been setting great credence recently on Danie Krugel, some sateillite images, and the ramblings of Donal Macintyre.

____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".  Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".   

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Re: JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

Post by mira2 on 02.06.12 18:31

Re: Tinmans 918 explains how ridiculously easy it woul have been for abduction to snatich Madeleine without being seen ......................
sijm Yesterday at 7:36 pm




I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make. Psychopaths have a mindset, So I am well informed by my Chartered Psychologist daughter, although she has her own views on the Madeleine case from day one.

People should research untill their fingers bleed if they are to get at the truth, I also believe we have been given a very important lead to Madeleine,s abduction by Paulo Cristovao's 5-2-3-1 and why the reason for the ring of steel by UK's Government , but this too is still pure theory backed up with facts, but still theory, not enought proof in a court of law to bring a conviction.

As you know Tony, hard evidence and not second hand counts,, reliable witnesses as the Leveson enquiry's tally shows, e-mails, telephone calls, DNA full match, motive, gain. and the opportunity, dogs evidence has to be backed up with hard evidence such as a body, full DNA,etc.

I too want to find the truth what happened to Maddie and have worked hard for five years to find her, but the truth must be clear enough to bring a conviction in a safe court of law for people's lives are at stake here.

Passions run high when a child goes missing if we were in France so many people would plead crime of passion against libel allegations brought by the McCanns, its more than they have showed.
____
This chartered phsychologist daughter of yours obviously has had no impact in your lack of basic concept.
For your information, I am aquainted with a family whose idea of family is way out there, so much crasyness, not crazy in a bad way just nutty. I was bemused to find that the daughter had qualified as a phychologist even though she herself was not blessed with the basic tools of making friendships.

What is it that you do not get about the Tapas Group's succesfull attempt to cover up the death of Madeleine by hiring extradition lawyers and making a deal with the devil i.e Murdoch.
Lets face it if you are a parent and you take your responsibities seriously, no way will you go out of your way to expose your kids to danger, the Mc Cann's claim that they did just that, yet they claim that they are responsible parents and that they have been advised by a UK established institution that their conduct was well within the bounds of responsible parenting. I want to know who told Kate McCann that her style of parenting was well withing the bounds of responsible parenting, and I want to know if they are still practicing, and if so how come.

mira2

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