More timewarps by the Blacksmith Bureau

The Blacksmith Bureau

Tuesday, 3 April 2012

More timewarps



The Paraiso cafe and bar

When the Yard detectives finally interview the Tapas group they won’t be confining their questions to what happened between 8.30 and 10PM on May 3. The preceding two and a half hours or so also need more than a little clarification.

We all know about nice Dr Payne’s controversial visit to Kate McCann during that time and we won’t deal with it any more today. Less studied, however, are the activities of other members of the group around the same time, particularly those surrounding the so-called “social tennis” event.

This was scheduled for 6.PM at the Ocean Club and was to involve all four male members of the group, finishing, according to the instructor, at 7PM.Gerry McCann was already at the courts at six with the instructor, Dan. Kate and the children were in the apartment and the rest of the group were down at the beach in the Paraiso bar, a seaside café some seven to ten minutes’ walk away from the Ocean Club.

The men left the bar for the tennis courts, the others followed them afterwards, stayed to watch some of the tennis, and then everyone went back to their respective apartments to put the kids to bed and prepare for supper at the Tapas restaurant.

Silence is golden

So far so simple. So simple that it is very hard to see why the men, as well as the McCanns, were initially silent about this two and a half hour period. Summarising the May 4 police statements: David Payne had nothing to say about the period, even though it included a towel-wrapped Kate McCann and the striking “vision of angels” in apartment 5A; Mathew Oldfield had nothing to say either; Russell O’ Brien, along with his partner Tanner the most obscure and slippery of the whole group, who spoke to the police last and knew what Tanner had said, mentioned nothing other than his return to his apartment at “around 7.15-7.30PM.” From Gerry McCann, not a word about the whole period.

The women were less tight-lipped. Dianne Webster, exactly as one would expect, was positively loquacious:

“Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 15h45 and left at around 18h15 to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 19h00. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.”

Her daughter could hardly disagree, although whether these two statements were genuinely independent is another matter since the times, as you can see, are too similar for comfort:

“On the day before yesterday, [this is a translation error for May 3] they slightly altered their routine - they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15h45 and left at 18h15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19h00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20h00. Afterwards, she returned to the apartment and got ready.”

Rachael Oldfield, in contrast, said the same as Mathew: nothing.

Finally Jane Tanner. And her statement was both relatively extensive and very interesting because in the course of a couple of paragraphs in which she told police that she was on the beach or at the Paraiso from 3.45 until 6.10-6.15, she said little more about herself but gave useful eye-witness alibis for all the men and Kate McCann:

Kate? “Around 5.15 she saw Kate Healy jog past the beach and wave.” Gerry and the other men? Why, “when the witness, together with her friends and children returned from the beach at about 6.20 they passed by the tennis courts and saw all the men, including Gerry, on court. They stayed there talking to them for about 20/30 minutes.” Gerry again? “Gerald behaved normally.” Kate again? “She thinks [our italics] Kate was in the apartment putting the children to bed.” Everybody? “At about 19h00 they all went back to their own apartments with the children.”

“All”, however, didn’t mean all at all, since O’ Brien came back “later”, time unspecified. And, surprise, surprise, she discussed her statement with Russell O’ Brien who told the police that “He completely corroborates his partner Jane Tanner's statements for the rest of the day.” Whatever that may mean.

A new beginning…

Clearly the police needed a lot more detail and on May 10/11 they attempted to get it, despite the absence of the Paynes and Kate McCann. Under questioning a consistent picture now began to emerge:

Russell O’ Brien, David Payne and Mathew Oldfield left the beach for the “social tennis” between 6 and 6.15.
The remainder of the group followed some ten minutes later and stayed talking or watching the tennis until 7 when the women and children left for their apartments.
The independent witness, Dan, confirmed that the social tennis was over by 7PM. Gerry, who had played with the other three, left then. The other men left ten minutes or so later.
From which we can see that:

O’ Brien, Oldfield and Payne were only out of sight of the women and children for about ten minutes before and ten minutes after the tennis.
All the men were in their respective apartments with their partners and children by 7.15-7.20 and remained in them until 8.30.
That was the end of the Portuguese questioning and everything had turned out straightforward enough – insofar as anything the Tapas 7 said was ever straightforward. Only Gerry McCann had mentioned Payne’s visit to 5A, admittedly, but that may well have been because the latter didn’t get the chance to give a second statement.

Back in England the McCanns and their lawyers began building their defence to the Portuguese accusations, the details surfacing at intervals as their spokesman floated them in the media to see if they sailed or sank. Gerry and the group had little to say about the period in their Panorama “expunge it!” programme – which began as it meant to continue with the comical statement that “the McCanns’ story has been the same from day one” – but what they did say confirmed the details they had given on May 10/11.

Only in the late December Beyond the Smears article by David Smith, which the McCanns had used as a deliberate feed for their version of events, did the pair revert to coyness about the missing two and a half hours, highlighting only the Payne visit and introducing a mysterious tennis injury which had apparently stopped Gerry playing and left him “waiting around the courts” on his own after 4.30 that afternoon. Hm.

…and another

And so we come to the final effort of the investigation, the rogatory interviews, in which the Tapas 7 were able to fill in the details which had been absent in Portugal. The assembled police of two countries, well briefed about the progress of events on and after May 3 and with copies of the statements to hand, could hardly have been prepared for what occurred during that week of interviews. In short:

Payne, O’ Brien and Oldfield all changed their stories. In unison. Now they stated that the tennis didn’t start until 6.50 and finished at 8PM.
Two of the three made some attempt to reconcile the new version with the old; both failed, with Payne in particular being badly caught out by his interviewer.
Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster, to add to the developing farce, did not alter their statements, still saying that David Payne was back in the apartment by 7.10.
This radical alteration in the timing of events was wrapped in various lengths of flannel by the interviewees as they attempted to make their changes less suspicious and more convincing. No wonder Rebelo flew home before the completion of the interviews! These absurd and often rather shameless alterations to their stories made it obvious that the seven – always excluding Dianne Webster – were not there to help seek the truth of events on May 3 but were simply covering their backs in some way or deliberately muddying the waters.

To Rebelo the idea that any of them would chance returning to a Portuguese reconstruction with this lamentable record of their own evasions was out of the question, even before some of them were asked: clearly they would have to be forced – an impossibility under European Arrest Warrant rules. With his disillusioned flight home the Portuguese investigation was effectively at an end.

Nor was he the only one to react strongly to the new version. “It’s getting warm in here,” said DC Messiah at one point, clearly baffled and irritated at Payne’s unbearably long-winded attempts to make the new timings fit the old. There are pages and pages of the stuff as Payne battles to soften the impact of his volte-face by stressing how late everything was running, how he had neither watch nor mobile phone to tell the time, how long and slow was the way from beach to tennis courts and from courts to apartments and on and on. If you cut out the rare statements of fact from the interview but leave in Payne’s “uncertainties” you get an idea of just how bizarre Payne’s answers were:

"But you know...

"Yeah, what sort of time, excuse me it’s getting warm in here, what sort of time was that that you saw them?”

"Err you know and err so that’d be the time that I’d have gone out there... you know err the, I’ve done a great deal...err well no because I mean like usually like...as far as I remember...err...err...I can’t remember...Err well I mean we were probably, as I say... then we left the err restaurant and err you know, I hadn’t got a watch on me, I hadn’t you know I hadn’t got a mobile... we left the restaurant err you know after six o’ clock, so you know just working backwards…bit of time on the beach and then you know your meal, which would take an hour, which seems to fit in with the, you know ... we left we didn’t leave from the beach we left from the err restaurant...Err the, basically the err the children and the ladies that stayed behind, err just to finish off there and err and then we...we’ll get up there...err there was Russell and Matt. As I say I can’t, can’t remember ... you know, I can’t remember...but I know I went and spoke to Gerry.”

"Yeah, and at what point did you have the conversation with him? Did he stop the game or did you speak whilst he was playing?”

"I can’t remember, I can’t remember. I, you know, in my mind, you know, he stopped playing and you know but I can’t remember...”

The other interviewees are just as unconvincing, as readers can see for themselves from the transcripts. Some err and bumble along as they play for time regarding the crucial alterations to their year-old statements; others, like O’Brien, give up any attempt to remove the anomalies, leaving the transcript in a literally nonsensical state.

Every picture tells a story

Something was up between 6 and 8.30 The silence of virtually all of them in the first instance about these two and a half hours was suggestive enough; that was followed by suspicious near-unanimity six days later; and then, with a whole year gone, came this farrago, quite enough to make DC Messiah somewhat hot under the collar.

What was the need for the change? Why were they so riskily adding an extra hour to events, an hour in which the men were on their own? That’s what we hope the Yard will eventually tell us. Once again the apparently naïve but persistently untruthful Oldfield is right at the centre of a modified version. Once again Rachael Oldfield makes changes to her story to back him up, just as she did when she confirmed some of his more unlikely statements in the PJ interviews. Alongside Oldfield but out of sight of everyone else walks the enigmatic figure of O’ Brien, just as he was to do at the critical hour of 9.30PM. And Payne, bumbling Payne, struggles to alter his testimony in order to fit in the visit to 5A by him alone.



Come on ladies!

When did the group become aware of the Paraiso CCTV pictures? Payne makes reference to camera timings but it is not clear which camera he is referring to. They blow open good old unanimous Version One. At 6.13 the three men are standing, clearly about to leave, presumably for the tennis courts. Fair enough. But what about the “ten minutes” or so interval before the others left? They were in fact still in the restaurant until at least 6.36 – fifteen minutes after Jane Tanner claimed to have watched the men playing – and would have arrived at the tennis courts at the same time as the men were just commencing play. If they weren’t playing tennis then what exactly had O’Brien, Oldfield and David Payne been doing between 6.13 and 6.50, a period which just happened to include the supposed Payne visit? And if they were playing from 6.50 to almost 8PM how come Fiona Payne placed her husband back in the apartment at 7.10? Come on!

If they had somehow been mistaken in unison in Version One and were correcting their evidence because they’d seen the CCTV timings then why on earth couldn’t they tell Leicester police so? Why take the risk of looking once again as if they were obstructing the investigation because they had something to hide? And there are many other related questions: the Yard have their work cut out.

Just after the rogatory interviews ended Rachael Oldfield spoke to BBC Radio 4. Had any of their stories changed between the Portuguese statements and the interviews, she was asked. “No, of course not,” said the lady who’d once sworn to the PJ that MO returned to their apartment at 7.15. “How could they have done?” she added haughtily, “there was only ever one story.”

Really?

Posted by john blacksmith at 17:02

http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk/

candyfloss wrote:The Blacksmith Bureau

Tuesday, 3 April 2012

More timewarps



The Paraiso cafe and bar

When the Yard detectives finally interview the Tapas group they won’t be confining their questions to what happened between 8.30 and 10PM on May 3. The preceding two and a half hours or so also need more than a little clarification.

We all know about nice Dr Payne’s controversial visit to Kate McCann during that time and we won’t deal with it any more today. Less studied, however, are the activities of other members of the group around the same time, particularly those surrounding the so-called “social tennis” event.

This was scheduled for 6.PM at the Ocean Club and was to involve all four male members of the group, finishing, according to the instructor, at 7PM.Gerry McCann was already at the courts at six with the instructor, Dan. Kate and the children were in the apartment and the rest of the group were down at the beach in the Paraiso bar, a seaside café some seven to ten minutes’ walk away from the Ocean Club.

The men left the bar for the tennis courts, the others followed them afterwards, stayed to watch some of the tennis, and then everyone went back to their respective apartments to put the kids to bed and prepare for supper at the Tapas restaurant.

Silence is golden

So far so simple. So simple that it is very hard to see why the men, as well as the McCanns, were initially silent about this two and a half hour period. Summarising the May 4 police statements: David Payne had nothing to say about the period, even though it included a towel-wrapped Kate McCann and the striking “vision of angels” in apartment 5A; Mathew Oldfield had nothing to say either; Russell O’ Brien, along with his partner Tanner the most obscure and slippery of the whole group, who spoke to the police last and knew what Tanner had said, mentioned nothing other than his return to his apartment at “around 7.15-7.30PM.” From Gerry McCann, not a word about the whole period.

The women were less tight-lipped. Dianne Webster, exactly as one would expect, was positively loquacious:

“Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 15h45 and left at around 18h15 to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 19h00. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.”

Her daughter could hardly disagree, although whether these two statements were genuinely independent is another matter since the times, as you can see, are too similar for comfort:

“On the day before yesterday, [this is a translation error for May 3] they slightly altered their routine - they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15h45 and left at 18h15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19h00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20h00. Afterwards, she returned to the apartment and got ready.”

Rachael Oldfield, in contrast, said the same as Mathew: nothing.

Finally Jane Tanner. And her statement was both relatively extensive and very interesting because in the course of a couple of paragraphs in which she told police that she was on the beach or at the Paraiso from 3.45 until 6.10-6.15, she said little more about herself but gave useful eye-witness alibis for all the men and Kate McCann:

Kate? “Around 5.15 she saw Kate Healy jog past the beach and wave.” Gerry and the other men? Why, “when the witness, together with her friends and children returned from the beach at about 6.20 they passed by the tennis courts and saw all the men, including Gerry, on court. They stayed there talking to them for about 20/30 minutes.” Gerry again? “Gerald behaved normally.” Kate again? “She thinks [our italics] Kate was in the apartment putting the children to bed.” Everybody? “At about 19h00 they all went back to their own apartments with the children.”

“All”, however, didn’t mean all at all, since O’ Brien came back “later”, time unspecified. And, surprise, surprise, she discussed her statement with Russell O’ Brien who told the police that “He completely corroborates his partner Jane Tanner's statements for the rest of the day.” Whatever that may mean.

A new beginning…

Clearly the police needed a lot more detail and on May 10/11 they attempted to get it, despite the absence of the Paynes and Kate McCann. Under questioning a consistent picture now began to emerge:

Russell O’ Brien, David Payne and Mathew Oldfield left the beach for the “social tennis” between 6 and 6.15.
The remainder of the group followed some ten minutes later and stayed talking or watching the tennis until 7 when the women and children left for their apartments.
The independent witness, Dan, confirmed that the social tennis was over by 7PM. Gerry, who had played with the other three, left then. The other men left ten minutes or so later.
From which we can see that:

O’ Brien, Oldfield and Payne were only out of sight of the women and children for about ten minutes before and ten minutes after the tennis.
All the men were in their respective apartments with their partners and children by 7.15-7.20 and remained in them until 8.30.
That was the end of the Portuguese questioning and everything had turned out straightforward enough – insofar as anything the Tapas 7 said was ever straightforward. Only Gerry McCann had mentioned Payne’s visit to 5A, admittedly, but that may well have been because the latter didn’t get the chance to give a second statement.

Back in England the McCanns and their lawyers began building their defence to the Portuguese accusations, the details surfacing at intervals as their spokesman floated them in the media to see if they sailed or sank. Gerry and the group had little to say about the period in their Panorama “expunge it!” programme – which began as it meant to continue with the comical statement that “the McCanns’ story has been the same from day one” – but what they did say confirmed the details they had given on May 10/11.

Only in the late December Beyond the Smears article by David Smith, which the McCanns had used as a deliberate feed for their version of events, did the pair revert to coyness about the missing two and a half hours, highlighting only the Payne visit and introducing a mysterious tennis injury which had apparently stopped Gerry playing and left him “waiting around the courts” on his own after 4.30 that afternoon. Hm.

…and another

And so we come to the final effort of the investigation, the rogatory interviews, in which the Tapas 7 were able to fill in the details which had been absent in Portugal. The assembled police of two countries, well briefed about the progress of events on and after May 3 and with copies of the statements to hand, could hardly have been prepared for what occurred during that week of interviews. In short:

Payne, O’ Brien and Oldfield all changed their stories. In unison. Now they stated that the tennis didn’t start until 6.50 and finished at 8PM.
Two of the three made some attempt to reconcile the new version with the old; both failed, with Payne in particular being badly caught out by his interviewer.
Fiona Payne and Dianne Webster, to add to the developing farce, did not alter their statements, still saying that David Payne was back in the apartment by 7.10.
This radical alteration in the timing of events was wrapped in various lengths of flannel by the interviewees as they attempted to make their changes less suspicious and more convincing. No wonder Rebelo flew home before the completion of the interviews! These absurd and often rather shameless alterations to their stories made it obvious that the seven – always excluding Dianne Webster – were not there to help seek the truth of events on May 3 but were simply covering their backs in some way or deliberately muddying the waters.

To Rebelo the idea that any of them would chance returning to a Portuguese reconstruction with this lamentable record of their own evasions was out of the question, even before some of them were asked: clearly they would have to be forced – an impossibility under European Arrest Warrant rules. With his disillusioned flight home the Portuguese investigation was effectively at an end.

Nor was he the only one to react strongly to the new version. “It’s getting warm in here,” said DC Messiah at one point, clearly baffled and irritated at Payne’s unbearably long-winded attempts to make the new timings fit the old. There are pages and pages of the stuff as Payne battles to soften the impact of his volte-face by stressing how late everything was running, how he had neither watch nor mobile phone to tell the time, how long and slow was the way from beach to tennis courts and from courts to apartments and on and on. If you cut out the rare statements of fact from the interview but leave in Payne’s “uncertainties” you get an idea of just how bizarre Payne’s answers were:

"But you know...

"Yeah, what sort of time, excuse me it’s getting warm in here, what sort of time was that that you saw them?”

"Err you know and err so that’d be the time that I’d have gone out there... you know err the, I’ve done a great deal...err well no because I mean like usually like...as far as I remember...err...err...I can’t remember...Err well I mean we were probably, as I say... then we left the err restaurant and err you know, I hadn’t got a watch on me, I hadn’t you know I hadn’t got a mobile... we left the restaurant err you know after six o’ clock, so you know just working backwards…bit of time on the beach and then you know your meal, which would take an hour, which seems to fit in with the, you know ... we left we didn’t leave from the beach we left from the err restaurant...Err the, basically the err the children and the ladies that stayed behind, err just to finish off there and err and then we...we’ll get up there...err there was Russell and Matt. As I say I can’t, can’t remember ... you know, I can’t remember...but I know I went and spoke to Gerry.”

"Yeah, and at what point did you have the conversation with him? Did he stop the game or did you speak whilst he was playing?”

"I can’t remember, I can’t remember. I, you know, in my mind, you know, he stopped playing and you know but I can’t remember...”

The other interviewees are just as unconvincing, as readers can see for themselves from the transcripts. Some err and bumble along as they play for time regarding the crucial alterations to their year-old statements; others, like O’Brien, give up any attempt to remove the anomalies, leaving the transcript in a literally nonsensical state.

Every picture tells a story

Something was up between 6 and 8.30 The silence of virtually all of them in the first instance about these two and a half hours was suggestive enough; that was followed by suspicious near-unanimity six days later; and then, with a whole year gone, came this farrago, quite enough to make DC Messiah somewhat hot under the collar.

What was the need for the change? Why were they so riskily adding an extra hour to events, an hour in which the men were on their own? That’s what we hope the Yard will eventually tell us. Once again the apparently naïve but persistently untruthful Oldfield is right at the centre of a modified version. Once again Rachael Oldfield makes changes to her story to back him up, just as she did when she confirmed some of his more unlikely statements in the PJ interviews. Alongside Oldfield but out of sight of everyone else walks the enigmatic figure of O’ Brien, just as he was to do at the critical hour of 9.30PM. And Payne, bumbling Payne, struggles to alter his testimony in order to fit in the visit to 5A by him alone.



Come on ladies!

When did the group become aware of the Paraiso CCTV pictures? Payne makes reference to camera timings but it is not clear which camera he is referring to. They blow open good old unanimous Version One. At 6.13 the three men are standing, clearly about to leave, presumably for the tennis courts. Fair enough. But what about the “ten minutes” or so interval before the others left? They were in fact still in the restaurant until at least 6.36 – fifteen minutes after Jane Tanner claimed to have watched the men playing – and would have arrived at the tennis courts at the same time as the men were just commencing play. If they weren’t playing tennis then what exactly had O’Brien, Oldfield and David Payne been doing between 6.13 and 6.50, a period which just happened to include the supposed Payne visit? And if they were playing from 6.50 to almost 8PM how come Fiona Payne placed her husband back in the apartment at 7.10? Come on!

If they had somehow been mistaken in unison in Version One and were correcting their evidence because they’d seen the CCTV timings then why on earth couldn’t they tell Leicester police so? Why take the risk of looking once again as if they were obstructing the investigation because they had something to hide? And there are many other related questions: the Yard have their work cut out.

Just after the rogatory interviews ended Rachael Oldfield spoke to BBC Radio 4. Had any of their stories changed between the Portuguese statements and the interviews, she was asked. “No, of course not,” said the lady who’d once sworn to the PJ that MO returned to their apartment at 7.15. “How could they have done?” she added haughtily, “there was only ever one story.”

Really?

Posted by john blacksmith at 17:02

http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk/

Thank you John, very much so! Sure hope someone in SY/PJ is listening in.

Dear Webmonitors: Textusa some considerable time ago did an analysis of a black and white picture in the PJ files, showing two men in wetsuits. She thought that these might have been MO en ROB at an undisclosed time. Could this perhaps contribute to explaining the men's absence? I'll try to find Textusa's piece in order to enclose it.

Don't know if this has any significance, but very early on the owner of the Paraiso (IIRC) said he had CCTV of "Madeleine and her father" on that afternoon, and how lovely it was with the pair dancing together. The McCanns said very vehemently it wasn't them, as if it was very important they dismissed the link at once. I always thought that was a bit odd. And then the CCTV wasn't, I think, ever found. I wonder who the father and child actually were?

juliet wrote:Don't know if this has any significance, but very early on the owner of the Paraiso (IIRC) said he had CCTV of "Madeleine and her father" on that afternoon, and how lovely it was with the pair dancing together. The McCanns said very vehemently it wasn't them, as if it was very important they dismissed the link at once. I always thought that was a bit odd. And then the CCTV wasn't, I think, ever found. I wonder who the father and child actually were?

I've seen a still in black and white of that CCTV shot. It turned out to be another family altogether. Good example of helpful or constructive memory.

Dear or dear!
Does anyone remember Coldwater?
Well, a lot of the things he said (from source apparently) fit into this Blacksmith's piece.
The Yard will have to move the goalpost even earlier away from 6-8pm for Maddie PSI time.

Maddie couldn't have died between the two hours of 6-8 pm, since there would no one to help Kate who was alone in the Apt.
The group had gone to the Paradiso restaurant at the beach.
Gerry was hanging around the Tennis Court since 4.30 due to tendon injury and didn't return with the men until 7pm thereabout later moved to 8pm thereabout.

Can anyone else remember what CW said?
IIRC he said that Maddie died on late 2/5 or early 3/5 and Mccanns had a family day on the 3/5.
They didn't join the rest of the group at all.
Kate also turned away the cleaner on the 3/5.
Gerry used the day to dispose of the "good". What kate did is not difficult to guess, cleaning perchance?.

Now if Kate and children did not join the rest of the group at the beach, what time did the other ladies took their children to Paradiso? Pre or post snack time with Maddie post the creche pick up time if 4/5 time line is to be believed?

Why didn't kate take her children there to join the group since she was left alone with the kids?
If she didn't join them at the beach and was seen jogging alone at the beach by friendly Jane at about 5.30 pm, where did Kate leave her children? Or rather the twins?

Why was Gerry hanging round the Tennis Court since 4.30 due to the tendon injury when he could be joining the group at the beach or kate in the apt?
According to CW, IIRC he was seen with the blue bag around the locker area.

Why did the men have men's time at the Tennis Court? Why did they break away from their family to join Gerry at Tennis if Gerry couldn't play and didnt play anyway due to injury?

Were they getting briefed about the good disposal, and tidying up plan for the evening charade to create an alibi for the abductor theory?
Was Payne sent to update Kate on the good disposal, or to check that Kate had finished what she was doing ie cleaning or cueing her ready for the charade? Were the twins sedated and taken to another apt to set the scene or stage for the abduction?
According to CW, the children were all left in one room? not 5A!

Someone has to crack before the Police can get a coherent story out of this lot of tough cookies. Either that or Police have to hold an ace that they can produce?

If Blacksmith has source in Portugal, something must be adrift.

tigger wrote:

juliet wrote:Don't know if this has any significance, but very early on the owner of the Paraiso (IIRC) said he had CCTV of "Madeleine and her father" on that afternoon, and how lovely it was with the pair dancing together. The McCanns said very vehemently it wasn't them, as if it was very important they dismissed the link at once. I always thought that was a bit odd. And then the CCTV wasn't, I think, ever found. I wonder who the father and child actually were?

I've seen a still in black and white of that CCTV shot. It turned out to be another family altogether. Good example of helpful or constructive memory.

Also wasnt there speculation that the CCTV camera date is out of synch?

I remember coldwater aiyoyo. I wasn't a follower, but IIRC his source was Leicester police, they came to a BBQ at coldwater's house. Was it he/her who told us of the "sheet of metal"? Apart from that they said they bred Dalmations.

I wish I hadn't been such a cynic now, but there were an awful lot of wind up merchants around at that time.

I too was there from day one and remember Cold Water very well. I never followed him much mind, all too cryptic! think i pulled him up on some of his `updates` all i got was Cryptic replies!. This case is bad enough without wind up merchants like him.

Were they getting briefed about the good disposal, and tidying up plan for the evening charade to create an alibi for the abductor theory?
Was Payne sent to update Kate on the good disposal, or to check that Kate had finished what she was doing ie cleaning or cueing her ready for the charade? Were the twins sedated and taken to another apt to set the scene or stage for the abduction?
According to CW, the children were all left in one room? not 5A!

I think this point is very important, when I first read from the case files that GM asked Payne to check on Kate ?? why ? ? did Payne go around checking all the children and their mother's , IMO I think that Madeline was not "there" at this time , I think this was all done as part of the overall story , and as they seem to be unable to account for two hours ......well the mind boggles

How anyone (mentioning no names) can read all this (allegedly) and STILL believe they are all doing anything other than covering up something nefarious is beyond me.
How can they all still be walking around 'free'? I say 'free' because they must live in dread of a knock on the door - but frankly I don't care if their consciences are bothering them. They should've been dealt with properly. They make the most breathtaking u-turns, but the police just shrug and say 'never mind'? Its not good enough.
Surely all these alterations would, in general, be probable cause for arrest and further interrogation - why not here? I just pray its in the post.

The fact David Payne mentioned seeing all three kids that evening looking like ANGELS tells me Maddie was no more at that point. His subconcious let him down on several ocassions during his police interviews.

ShuBob wrote:The fact David Payne mentioned seeing all three kids that evening looking like ANGELS tells me Maddie was no more at that point. His subconcious let him down on several ocassions during his police interviews.

Totally agree, Shubob.
The pesky brain will always push its truth out one way or another.
As Kate and Gerry are still finding out!
After five years of fibbing, you think you've got it all off-pat - then - boom! The naughty subconcious has its way again! I'd love to see how much it would happen in an unplanned interview

rainbow-fairy wrote:How anyone (mentioning no names) can read all this (allegedly) and STILL believe they are all doing anything other than covering up something nefarious is beyond me.
How can they all still be walking around 'free'? I say 'free' because they must live in dread of a knock on the door - but frankly I don't care if their consciences are bothering them. They should've been dealt with properly. They make the most breathtaking u-turns, but the police just shrug and say 'never mind'? Its not good enough.
Surely all these alterations would, in general, be probable cause for arrest and further interrogation - why not here? I just pray its in the post.

I need to read more on the laws in Portugal but I agree with you, why are these people "free" the whole thing is full of holes !!

I mean refusing the police things like medical files, financial records , photos , doing a reconstruction !! and telling completly stupid comments like the wine was New Zealand , ! so much for Gerry that he will do all in his power to find Madeline , when he is finished hipity party and world tour maybe .

rainbow-fairy wrote:How anyone (mentioning no names) can read all this (allegedly) and STILL believe they are all doing anything other than covering up something nefarious is beyond me.
How can they all still be walking around 'free'? I say 'free' because they must live in dread of a knock on the door - but frankly I don't care if their consciences are bothering them. They should've been dealt with properly. They make the most breathtaking u-turns, but the police just shrug and say 'never mind'? Its not good enough.
Surely all these alterations would, in general, be probable cause for arrest and further interrogation - why not here? I just pray its in the post.

Operation Grange has a copy.

PeterMac wrote:

rainbow-fairy wrote:How anyone (mentioning no names) can read all this (allegedly) and STILL believe they are all doing anything other than covering up something nefarious is beyond me.
How can they all still be walking around 'free'? I say 'free' because they must live in dread of a knock on the door - but frankly I don't care if their consciences are bothering them. They should've been dealt with properly. They make the most breathtaking u-turns, but the police just shrug and say 'never mind'? Its not good enough.
Surely all these alterations would, in general, be probable cause for arrest and further interrogation - why not here? I just pray its in the post.

Operation Grange has a copy.

Let's hope they have the stamina to read it, after wading through the 30 boxes of c**p they took from Metodo3!

PeterMac, obviously I'm not a policeman and never have been, so I may be way off-mark. In your experience, the bit I've bolded above: is that correct?
Would you, when you were on the Force, have been expected to turn your attention to and re-interview people that had given such blatant contradictions and changes to their statements?

rainbow-fairy wrote:PeterMac, obviously I'm not a policeman and never have been, so I may be way off-mark. In your experience, the bit I've bolded above: is that correct?
Would you, when you were on the Force, have been expected to turn your attention to and re-interview people that had given such blatant contradictions and changes to their statements?

Oh yes ! But not until very much later, when everything else was in place, and I knew, and for emphasis I use the approved italics, thus " I knew" the full story.
Then I would have them in again, taped and videoed, and get them to repeat the entire story, in their own words, helping and refreshing as necessary.
When they had finished I would then casually mention a fact, usually from fairly early in the story, which I could prove, and which did not tally with what they had said.
And watch !
There was a certain morbid fascination watching a suspect, and often also the associated paid parasite, sorry - lawyer, twisting and turning like a twisty turny thing. (acknowledgements to Blackadder)
Then, when the suspect has started to try to wriggle out of that one, and has come up with another explanation for anything the police might or might not have, (to quote someone whose name for some ludicrous reason escapes me), I would drop in another, and so on.
They then have two options.
1 To give a full and frank confession and throw themselves on the mercy of the court, thus allowing a decent plea in mitigation.
2 To refuse to answer any more questions, which is often the advice given by a solicitor, who does not worry that his client will then be slightly "stuffed" when trying to mitigate after clearly lying and refusing to cooperate. But it is not the solicitor or barrister who is going to prison.

I used to teach interview technique, and compared it to a tree.
Set the suspect to climb the tree.
If he wishes to go straight to the top and confess then that is fine.
But if not, allow him to commit himself to going out on a branch.
By apparently agreeing and questioning take him further and further out, but do not let on that you have a chain saw
until he is so far out that he cannot get back in time.
Then cut.

Brilliant stuff PeterMac!

PeterMac wrote:

rainbow-fairy wrote:PeterMac, obviously I'm not a policeman and never have been, so I may be way off-mark. In your experience, the bit I've bolded above: is that correct?
Would you, when you were on the Force, have been expected to turn your attention to and re-interview people that had given such blatant contradictions and changes to their statements?

Oh yes ! But not until very much later, when everything else was in place, and I knew, and for emphasis I use the approved italics, thus " I knew" the full story.
Then I would have them in again, taped and videoed, and get them to repeat the entire story, in their own words, helping and refreshing as necessary.
When they had finished I would then casually mention a fact, usually from fairly early in the story, which I could prove, and which did not tally with what they had said.
And watch !
There was a certain morbid fascination watching a suspect, and often also the associated paid parasite, sorry - lawyer, twisting and turning like a twisty turny thing. (acknowledgements to Blackadder)
Then, when the suspect has started to try to wriggle out of that one, and has come up with another explanation for anything the police might or might not have, (to quote someone whose name for some ludicrous reason escapes me), I would drop in another, and so on.
They then have two options.
1 To give a full and frank confession and throw themselves on the mercy of the court, thus allowing a decent plea in mitigation.
2 To refuse to answer any more questions, which is often the advice given by a solicitor, who does not worry that his client will then be slightly "stuffed" when trying to mitigate after clearly lying and refusing to cooperate. But it is not the solicitor or barrister who is going to prison.

I used to teach interview technique, and compared it to a tree.
Set the suspect to climb the tree.
If he wishes to go straight to the top and confess then that is fine.
But if not, allow him to commit himself to going out on a branch.
By apparently agreeing and questioning take him further and further out, but do not let on that you have a chain saw
until he is so far out that he cannot get back in time.
Then cut.

Lol That is fantastic! I just had a wonderful vision of you, a chainsaw, a tree and David Payne! Splat... Bet you'd love to be able to interview the lot of them!
I often curse that I'm a pygmy - 5'1" in boots - my careers advisor said 'too short'. Isn't it right that the height restriction is off now? Still, I'd never pass a fitness exam these days

I did wonder about the Rogatories - why the seeming 'easy ride'. Now I'm wondering was DC Messiah leading them onto the branches, so one day someone might be able to get out their chainsaw?

rainbow-fairy wrote:
I did wonder about the Rogatories - why the seeming 'easy ride'. Now I'm wondering was DC Messiah leading them onto the branches, so one day someone might be able to get out their chainsaw?

That had certainly occurred to me.
The DSgt and the DI will have run through it before it was sent off, and would have pulled him up after the first one if they had wanted something stronger.