Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
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Should Goncalo Amaral now abandon the PJ theory that Madeleine died AFTER 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007?
Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Tony Bennett 05.08.16 22:21
Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
In July 2008, the Portuguese police and its judiciary, in the person of the regional Attorney-General, issued reports in which they said there was insufficient evidence for charging any one individual or individuals with responsibility for the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Two possible hypotheses were ‘archived’, or, as it were, left on the shelf, awaiting what they said would need to be ‘new and credible evidence’ sufficient to justify re-opening their investigation.
These were: (1) Madeleine had been abducted by a person or persons as yet unknown, or (2) Madeleine had died in the McCanns’ apartment and her body had been hidden.
The contrary view: she died in an accident after 5.30pm on 3 May
A different view from that of the Portuguese judicial authorities was set out by the investigation co-ordinator, Dr Goncalo Amaral, on 22 July 2008, in a book, ‘The Truth of the Lie’, and by one of his senior investigators, Detective Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida, in an interim report dated 10 September 2007.
Tavares de Almeida’s view
This was how Tavares de Almeida expressed the investigation’s preliminary conclusion – I just reproduce his first six points:
“From everything that we have discovered, our files result in the following conclusions:
1 the minor Madeleine McCann died in Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, on the night of 3 May 2007
2 simulation - a staged hoax - of an abduction took place
3 in order to render the child’s death impossible before 10.00pm, a situation of checking of the McCann couple’s children while they slept was concocted
4 Dr Gerald McCann and Dr Kate McCann are involved in the concealment of the corpse of their daughter, Madeleine McCann
5 at this moment, there seems to be no strong indications yet that the child’s death was other than the result of a tragic accident
6 from what has been established up to now, everything indicates that the McCann couple, in self-defence, did not want to deliver up Madeleine’s corpse immediately and voluntarily, and there is a strong possibility therefore that it was moved from the initial place where she died. This situation may raise questions concerning the circumstances in which the death of the child took place.
“MADELEINE'S HOLIDAY
“On the fateful day of May 3rd, the attendance register at the play centre indicates that Madeleine arrived at 9.10, accompanied by her father. Her mother came to fetch her at 12.25 for lunch and took her back at 2 o'clock. After jogging on the beach and going to fetch the twins, she collected Maddie at 5.30pm. From that moment on, no other person saw the little girl, apart from her parents and their friends. What happened then in the apartment remains a mystery.
“THE INTERROGATIONS
“We finally decide to question her as a witness, but not to pose questions on the events after 5.30pm, the time at which she returned to the apartment with her three children.
“A DISAPPEARANCE, A WINDOW AND A BODY
"It is now important to present a summary of this case, based on our deductions: reject what is false, throw out what we can't show with sufficient certainty and validate that which can be proven.
“Point 5. The body, the existence of which has been confirmed by the EVRD and CSI dogs but also by the results of the preliminary laboratory analyses, cannot be found.
“The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:
“1. The minor, Madeleine McCann died inside apartment 5A of the Ocean Club in Vila da Luz, on the night of May 3rd 2007;
“3. Kate Healy and Gerald McCann were probably involved in the concealment of their daughter's body.
“4. The death may have occurred as a result of a tragic accident…”
-----------------------------------------------
I will refer to the theory that Madeleine died from an accident (or worse) after 5.30pm on 3 May as ‘The PJ Theory’.
If Madeleine died after 5.30pm on 3 May, what would the McCanns have had to do?
First of all, what is known for sure about the period between 5.30pm and 10.00pm?
Do we know for sure that Madeleine was with her family in her apartment at 5.30pm?
Well, that depends on whether or not you accept as gospel the claims of Gerry and Kate McCann, Catriona Baker and Charlotte Pennington that Madeleine was at a high tea in the Tapas restaurant from (according to Gerry McCann) 4.45pm onwards to somewhere between 5.30pm and 6.00pm.
But for the purposes of this article, I shall assume that she was.
Then we have the McCanns and their friends dining at the Tapas restaurant. There is agreement from the McCanns, their friends, other holidaymakers and Ocean Club staff that they were all settled at their table at around 8.30pm to 8.45pm.
So, if she had died, as suggested by both Goncalo Amaral and Tavares de Almeida, what would the McCanns have had to do between, say, 5.30pm and 10.00pm?
Or more pertinently, between when they arrived back at their apartment (5.30pm to 6.00pm) and sat down in the restaurant for dinner and drinks at 8.30pm to 8.45pm. A period of about three hours.
A preliminary point to raise is: were the twins present when, according to the PJ theory, Madeleine died? It seems unlikely. But according to the PJ theory, she must have been.
So I suggest that all these things must all happened during these three hours:
1 (If the twins were there) The McCanns would have had to make swift arrangements to move them out of the way whilst they decided what to do. That would take some time and probably they would have had to take them to one of their friends’ apartments.
2 They would first have to decide if Madeleine really was dead or could be revived or resuscitated. This may or may not have taken some time to decide.
3 There would then have to be a rapid decision-making process during which all the following decisions would have to be taken:
A Do we take her to hospital?
B If so, what are the risks?
C Can we pass this off as a genuine accident?
D Is there any other reason why we dare not risk going to hospital and possibly facing a post-mortem?
E Would we be investigated by the police?
Then (assuming that they then decided that they are not going to inform the authorities of Madeleine’s death) there are more decisions to be made about what to do with Madeleine’s body:
F Hide it straightaway?
G If so, where?
H Or ’phone a trusted friend first and ask for advice?
I Where can we get a car quickly so as to hide it?
J Have we got anything we can carry her body out in, without anybody thinking there might be a body in it?
K Can we get all this done before 8.30pm, when we’re supposed to meet our friends for dinner?
Maybe other related questions.
Then there’s another very tricky question to answer:
L Who do we tell about this?
M Just David and Fiona?
N Just Russell and Jane?
O All four of them?
P Matt and Rachael as well?
Q What can we say to the staff, to our other friends we’ve met on holiday?
R How are we going to explain this away?
They then will have to consider these questions:
S What is our excuse for not having Madeleine anymore?
T We could say that Madeleine must have wandered off somewhere
U We could say that we took her down to the beach and she got swept out to sea
V Maybe other ideas were discussed
W Or could we get away with faking an abduction
Let us presume at this point that they decided to tell all their friends: Dave, Fiona, Russell, Jane, Matt, Rachael (I assume at this point that those who say that Madeleine died after 5.30pm fully accept that the McCanns must have let all their Tapas 9 friends know what had happened to Madeleine - and that they all agreed on a plan - though I am aware that some still maintain that maybe, in this scenario, the McCanns didn’t say anything to any of their friends, none of whom therefore knew that Madeleine was dead).
In such a scenario, the McCanns would probably contact their friends on their mobiles. Or quickly nip round and knock on their doors.
Could they have discussed this desperate situation bilaterally? Surely not. They would have to have a meeting about it – at the very time they were all getting the children ready for bed and beginning to dress up for dinner.
In such a scenario, how likely is it that all six friends would have agreed within, say, 5-10 minutes that they would all play their roles in a fake abduction?
I suggest that it is unlikely in the extreme.
Even had they all rapidly agreed to go along with an abduction hoax later that evening at 10.00pm, there would be all manner of questions and suggestions.
We also need to bear in mind that on the basis of the PJ theory as it stands, this was a holiday to a place the McCanns had never been to before. They knew no-one in the area who could help them. They had no immediate access to a car, and so on. Madeleine had been happily playing with her brother and sister, her friends in the Lobsters club, and her Mum and Dad for six days.
So the McCanns and their friends would be rapidly tossing these sorts of ideas around:
X Where are going to hide the body?
Y What about down the beach?
Z In the sea, using a boat?
AA In a derelict house in Praia da Luz?
BB Get hold of a car and drive the body somewhere well away from Praia da Luz.
Then, again assuming that they had all agreed to a plan of action, there would be loads more questions about (a) the apartment and (b) how to execute the hoax.
CC The apartment. If there had been a bad accident, or something equally bad had happened, who would clean the room?
DD How would it be done?
EE Was there any blood to clear away?
Then there would be questions about how the abduction hoax was going to be performed.
FF Who will raise the alarm?
GG What shall we all do after we raise the alarm? – Do we go frantically pretending to look for her?
HH Or do we ring the police?
II Do we inform the Ocean Club?
JJ When shall we do all this?
KK Do we need someone to pretend to see an abductor?
LL Who will do it? Jane perhaps?
MM What time shall we get her to say she saw someone?
NN Where shall we positon the abductor?
OO What about a description? She needs to have a believable description to give to the police.
Then we come to them all sitting down for dinner at 8.30pm to 8.45pm. Do those who suggest Madeleine had died after 5.30pm believe that all nine of the Tapas 9 could have, with every appearance of calm, nonchalantly sat down for dinner that night as though nothing had happened? With the body already hidden by that time? – somewhere where no-one could find it? The room cleaned of any blood? The abduction hoax ready scripted and ready to carry out?
Could they chat away merrily to the Carpenter family and ther children, for example, knowing that their first-born daughter had suddenly died within the past three hours?
I suggest it is unlikely in the extreme.
Some suggest that maybe the body wasn’t hidden before 8.30pm, but lay there while they were eating, with someone - presumably Gerry McCann - carrying his dead daughter to a temporary or final resting place somewhere after that.
Some of course suggest that Gerry McCann went back to the apartment during the meal, picked up his dead daughter clad in her pyjamas, and carried for about half a mile or more through the streets of Praia da Luz, being seen at 10.00pm by the Smiths, who negligently failed to do anything about their extraordinary sighting for 13 days afterwards. We have discussed the likelihood of that scenario on CMOMM. The theory would require Gerry McCann to have made an extremely risky, not to say crass, decision to walk for some 15 or 20 minutes across the village at the very moment that his wife and/or others was raising the alarm.
So finally I ask: is the PJ theory that Madeleine died after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May credible?
I ask this not to undermine the work of Goncalo Amaral and the PJ, who, after all, only had four months’ worth of evidence to consider before they wrote their interim report.
I ask this not to attack any of those, including some well-known names amongst established Madeleine McCann researchers, who defend this theory and have stuck by it.
I raise these questions only to tease out whether the PJ theory is a reasonable hypothesis that can be built on and developed…
…or whether it is now time to completely abandon it.
In July 2008, the Portuguese police and its judiciary, in the person of the regional Attorney-General, issued reports in which they said there was insufficient evidence for charging any one individual or individuals with responsibility for the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Two possible hypotheses were ‘archived’, or, as it were, left on the shelf, awaiting what they said would need to be ‘new and credible evidence’ sufficient to justify re-opening their investigation.
These were: (1) Madeleine had been abducted by a person or persons as yet unknown, or (2) Madeleine had died in the McCanns’ apartment and her body had been hidden.
The contrary view: she died in an accident after 5.30pm on 3 May
A different view from that of the Portuguese judicial authorities was set out by the investigation co-ordinator, Dr Goncalo Amaral, on 22 July 2008, in a book, ‘The Truth of the Lie’, and by one of his senior investigators, Detective Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida, in an interim report dated 10 September 2007.
Tavares de Almeida’s view
This was how Tavares de Almeida expressed the investigation’s preliminary conclusion – I just reproduce his first six points:
“From everything that we have discovered, our files result in the following conclusions:
1 the minor Madeleine McCann died in Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, on the night of 3 May 2007
2 simulation - a staged hoax - of an abduction took place
3 in order to render the child’s death impossible before 10.00pm, a situation of checking of the McCann couple’s children while they slept was concocted
4 Dr Gerald McCann and Dr Kate McCann are involved in the concealment of the corpse of their daughter, Madeleine McCann
5 at this moment, there seems to be no strong indications yet that the child’s death was other than the result of a tragic accident
6 from what has been established up to now, everything indicates that the McCann couple, in self-defence, did not want to deliver up Madeleine’s corpse immediately and voluntarily, and there is a strong possibility therefore that it was moved from the initial place where she died. This situation may raise questions concerning the circumstances in which the death of the child took place.
Goncalo Amaral’s view
These are the relevant extracts from Goncalo Amaral’s book (AnnaEsse’s translation):“MADELEINE'S HOLIDAY
“On the fateful day of May 3rd, the attendance register at the play centre indicates that Madeleine arrived at 9.10, accompanied by her father. Her mother came to fetch her at 12.25 for lunch and took her back at 2 o'clock. After jogging on the beach and going to fetch the twins, she collected Maddie at 5.30pm. From that moment on, no other person saw the little girl, apart from her parents and their friends. What happened then in the apartment remains a mystery.
“THE INTERROGATIONS
“We finally decide to question her as a witness, but not to pose questions on the events after 5.30pm, the time at which she returned to the apartment with her three children.
“A DISAPPEARANCE, A WINDOW AND A BODY
"It is now important to present a summary of this case, based on our deductions: reject what is false, throw out what we can't show with sufficient certainty and validate that which can be proven.
“Point 5. The body, the existence of which has been confirmed by the EVRD and CSI dogs but also by the results of the preliminary laboratory analyses, cannot be found.
“The conclusions my team and I have arrived at are the following:
“1. The minor, Madeleine McCann died inside apartment 5A of the Ocean Club in Vila da Luz, on the night of May 3rd 2007;
“3. Kate Healy and Gerald McCann were probably involved in the concealment of their daughter's body.
“4. The death may have occurred as a result of a tragic accident…”
-----------------------------------------------
I will refer to the theory that Madeleine died from an accident (or worse) after 5.30pm on 3 May as ‘The PJ Theory’.
If Madeleine died after 5.30pm on 3 May, what would the McCanns have had to do?
First of all, what is known for sure about the period between 5.30pm and 10.00pm?
Do we know for sure that Madeleine was with her family in her apartment at 5.30pm?
Well, that depends on whether or not you accept as gospel the claims of Gerry and Kate McCann, Catriona Baker and Charlotte Pennington that Madeleine was at a high tea in the Tapas restaurant from (according to Gerry McCann) 4.45pm onwards to somewhere between 5.30pm and 6.00pm.
But for the purposes of this article, I shall assume that she was.
Then we have the McCanns and their friends dining at the Tapas restaurant. There is agreement from the McCanns, their friends, other holidaymakers and Ocean Club staff that they were all settled at their table at around 8.30pm to 8.45pm.
So, if she had died, as suggested by both Goncalo Amaral and Tavares de Almeida, what would the McCanns have had to do between, say, 5.30pm and 10.00pm?
Or more pertinently, between when they arrived back at their apartment (5.30pm to 6.00pm) and sat down in the restaurant for dinner and drinks at 8.30pm to 8.45pm. A period of about three hours.
A preliminary point to raise is: were the twins present when, according to the PJ theory, Madeleine died? It seems unlikely. But according to the PJ theory, she must have been.
So I suggest that all these things must all happened during these three hours:
1 (If the twins were there) The McCanns would have had to make swift arrangements to move them out of the way whilst they decided what to do. That would take some time and probably they would have had to take them to one of their friends’ apartments.
2 They would first have to decide if Madeleine really was dead or could be revived or resuscitated. This may or may not have taken some time to decide.
3 There would then have to be a rapid decision-making process during which all the following decisions would have to be taken:
A Do we take her to hospital?
B If so, what are the risks?
C Can we pass this off as a genuine accident?
D Is there any other reason why we dare not risk going to hospital and possibly facing a post-mortem?
E Would we be investigated by the police?
Then (assuming that they then decided that they are not going to inform the authorities of Madeleine’s death) there are more decisions to be made about what to do with Madeleine’s body:
F Hide it straightaway?
G If so, where?
H Or ’phone a trusted friend first and ask for advice?
I Where can we get a car quickly so as to hide it?
J Have we got anything we can carry her body out in, without anybody thinking there might be a body in it?
K Can we get all this done before 8.30pm, when we’re supposed to meet our friends for dinner?
Maybe other related questions.
Then there’s another very tricky question to answer:
L Who do we tell about this?
M Just David and Fiona?
N Just Russell and Jane?
O All four of them?
P Matt and Rachael as well?
Q What can we say to the staff, to our other friends we’ve met on holiday?
R How are we going to explain this away?
They then will have to consider these questions:
S What is our excuse for not having Madeleine anymore?
T We could say that Madeleine must have wandered off somewhere
U We could say that we took her down to the beach and she got swept out to sea
V Maybe other ideas were discussed
W Or could we get away with faking an abduction
Let us presume at this point that they decided to tell all their friends: Dave, Fiona, Russell, Jane, Matt, Rachael (I assume at this point that those who say that Madeleine died after 5.30pm fully accept that the McCanns must have let all their Tapas 9 friends know what had happened to Madeleine - and that they all agreed on a plan - though I am aware that some still maintain that maybe, in this scenario, the McCanns didn’t say anything to any of their friends, none of whom therefore knew that Madeleine was dead).
In such a scenario, the McCanns would probably contact their friends on their mobiles. Or quickly nip round and knock on their doors.
Could they have discussed this desperate situation bilaterally? Surely not. They would have to have a meeting about it – at the very time they were all getting the children ready for bed and beginning to dress up for dinner.
In such a scenario, how likely is it that all six friends would have agreed within, say, 5-10 minutes that they would all play their roles in a fake abduction?
I suggest that it is unlikely in the extreme.
Even had they all rapidly agreed to go along with an abduction hoax later that evening at 10.00pm, there would be all manner of questions and suggestions.
We also need to bear in mind that on the basis of the PJ theory as it stands, this was a holiday to a place the McCanns had never been to before. They knew no-one in the area who could help them. They had no immediate access to a car, and so on. Madeleine had been happily playing with her brother and sister, her friends in the Lobsters club, and her Mum and Dad for six days.
So the McCanns and their friends would be rapidly tossing these sorts of ideas around:
X Where are going to hide the body?
Y What about down the beach?
Z In the sea, using a boat?
AA In a derelict house in Praia da Luz?
BB Get hold of a car and drive the body somewhere well away from Praia da Luz.
Then, again assuming that they had all agreed to a plan of action, there would be loads more questions about (a) the apartment and (b) how to execute the hoax.
CC The apartment. If there had been a bad accident, or something equally bad had happened, who would clean the room?
DD How would it be done?
EE Was there any blood to clear away?
Then there would be questions about how the abduction hoax was going to be performed.
FF Who will raise the alarm?
GG What shall we all do after we raise the alarm? – Do we go frantically pretending to look for her?
HH Or do we ring the police?
II Do we inform the Ocean Club?
JJ When shall we do all this?
KK Do we need someone to pretend to see an abductor?
LL Who will do it? Jane perhaps?
MM What time shall we get her to say she saw someone?
NN Where shall we positon the abductor?
OO What about a description? She needs to have a believable description to give to the police.
Then we come to them all sitting down for dinner at 8.30pm to 8.45pm. Do those who suggest Madeleine had died after 5.30pm believe that all nine of the Tapas 9 could have, with every appearance of calm, nonchalantly sat down for dinner that night as though nothing had happened? With the body already hidden by that time? – somewhere where no-one could find it? The room cleaned of any blood? The abduction hoax ready scripted and ready to carry out?
Could they chat away merrily to the Carpenter family and ther children, for example, knowing that their first-born daughter had suddenly died within the past three hours?
I suggest it is unlikely in the extreme.
Some suggest that maybe the body wasn’t hidden before 8.30pm, but lay there while they were eating, with someone - presumably Gerry McCann - carrying his dead daughter to a temporary or final resting place somewhere after that.
Some of course suggest that Gerry McCann went back to the apartment during the meal, picked up his dead daughter clad in her pyjamas, and carried for about half a mile or more through the streets of Praia da Luz, being seen at 10.00pm by the Smiths, who negligently failed to do anything about their extraordinary sighting for 13 days afterwards. We have discussed the likelihood of that scenario on CMOMM. The theory would require Gerry McCann to have made an extremely risky, not to say crass, decision to walk for some 15 or 20 minutes across the village at the very moment that his wife and/or others was raising the alarm.
So finally I ask: is the PJ theory that Madeleine died after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May credible?
I ask this not to undermine the work of Goncalo Amaral and the PJ, who, after all, only had four months’ worth of evidence to consider before they wrote their interim report.
I ask this not to attack any of those, including some well-known names amongst established Madeleine McCann researchers, who defend this theory and have stuck by it.
I raise these questions only to tease out whether the PJ theory is a reasonable hypothesis that can be built on and developed…
…or whether it is now time to completely abandon it.
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
Tony Bennett- Investigator
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Roxyroo 05.08.16 23:00
Great post, as ever Tony. A lot to think about!
I just get the impression the rest of the Tapas 9 lied to cover their own asses by saying they were doing all these checks, when they weren't at all. They realised they would have to lie and say they'd been checking otherwise would all look neglectful. I really can't see ALL of them being involved in the hoax abduction, surely this would play on at least one of their consciousness by now!
Its incredible that none, apart from Tanner, has done any interviews with media!
As ever I.m stumped!
All my own opinion, of course!
I just get the impression the rest of the Tapas 9 lied to cover their own asses by saying they were doing all these checks, when they weren't at all. They realised they would have to lie and say they'd been checking otherwise would all look neglectful. I really can't see ALL of them being involved in the hoax abduction, surely this would play on at least one of their consciousness by now!
Its incredible that none, apart from Tanner, has done any interviews with media!
As ever I.m stumped!
All my own opinion, of course!
Roxyroo- Posts : 421
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Tony Bennett 05.08.16 23:21
Well:Roxyroo wrote:I just get the impression the rest of the Tapas 9 lied to cover their own asses by saying they were doing all these checks, when they weren't at all... I really can't see ALL of them being involved in the hoax abduction...
Jane Tanner invented bundleman
She also said bundleman was Murat
Russell O'Brien obligingly wrote out two alleged timelines of events
Russell O'Brien, Rachael Oldfield and Fiona Payne all claimed they'd seen Murat near the Ocean Club on the night of 3 May - thus trying to incriminate him - but later withdrew their evidence
David Payne said he couldn't speak about the case because of a 'Pact of Silence' and told his rogatory interviewer that his interview was 'not the place' to discuss certain subjects
Matthew Oldfield was hardly convincing in his blundering attempt to suggest that at 9.30pm there was 'a bit more light' coming into the room and that he might have/might not have seen Madeleine - cunning! - craftily suggesting that an abductor might have taken Madeleine between 9.10pm and 9.30pm
But my point simply was IF, IF, IF, this was a carefully planned abduction hoax, how could it possibly have been conceived, concocted and executed within 2-3 hours of Madeleine being killed? - which is Dr Goncalo Amara's current theory?
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
Tony Bennett- Investigator
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Guest 05.08.16 23:51
I've said this time and again - there was absolutely no reason for the group of friends holidaying with the McCanns or the McCanns themselves to cover their tracks in order to avoid accusations of neglect. Ostensibly they were regularly checking on their children every night whilst out dining - there is no way this claim can be refuted by way of evidence. There is only their word as is the case with this entire sorry saga.Roxyroo wrote:Great post, as ever Tony. A lot to think about!
I just get the impression the rest of the Tapas 9 lied to cover their own asses by saying they were doing all these checks, when they weren't at all. They realised they would have to lie and say they'd been checking otherwise would all look neglectful. I really can't see ALL of them being involved in the hoax abduction, surely this would play on at least one of their consciousness by now!
Its incredible that none, apart from Tanner, has done any interviews with media!
As ever I.m stumped!
All my own opinion, of course!
Furthermore, to ensure there were no neglect repercussions they could easily have come up with another story line, like one of them stayed at their apartment every night to look after the children - they all but did that by claiming that one of the adults or one of the children were unwell on different nights.
No neglect fears necessary.
You have to ask yourself why, if any one of the group weren't involved in some way, they went to such extremes to support Gery and Kate MCann, even as far as declining to assist the Portuguese investigation by participating in a reconstruction. Keep reverting to the same issue - this is about a missing three year old child, you don't put your own reputation and security at risk to support a couple of friends/acquaintances without good reason. When asked one of the group was reported to have said 'they had to run everything past Gerry before saying anything' - a claim that has morphed into a pact of silence. OK, so I don't believe much of what's reported by the press but the apparent cohesion between the group over the past 9+ years I think speaks for itself.
Why has David Payne and Gerry McCann remained publicly silent about the Gaspar statements and other documented information implicating David Payne in issues signalling child abuse?
They must all have been involved - there is no plausible argument to consider otherwise.
Guest- Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by DENNISSALLY 06.08.16 23:43
Congrats Tony a great thought provoking post. In my personal opinion I certainly do not believe all of the T7 were aware that the parents were involved in her disappearance. I do believe they were watching their own backs as when the abduction theory was forced they knew they could be in trouble for leaving their own children unattended. They were a all professional people who most certainly should have known better, they all could have been in serious trouble leaving their children unattended (apart from DP and FP who had child monitor's) I believe that's why the time lines of checking was so messed up and contradictory. They all had to agree to have been checking and thats why it was written down, why write it down if it were true you don't forget and have no need to write it down you tell the PJ and they write it down through translators.
Did Madeleine die on the 3rd of May? I don't believe so, I believe she died before that! GM and KM seemed to have distanced themselves from the group, not going to lunch with other group members and using different doors entering and leaving 5A. I don't believe it's plausible for KM and GM to keep their composure by dining out that night and the time lines to me makes it impossible to pull it off on the night of the 3rd of May.
Was David Payne involved? Yes he most certainly was and the reason I believe that is the Gaspars statements and his interaction with GM . I and millions of others would never allow a man to talk about my child in a clearly sexual way and if you do then clearly your comfortable to do that and that to me means TRUST! It was not just once he was heard speaking about a child and any father worth his salt would put an end to that kind of discussion about his own daughter ( punched in his dirty mouth if am honest ) There was trust there between GM and DP perhaps enough to ask him to say he saw Madeleine and the twins in late afternoon on the 3rd looking all angelic and white and happy! That to me screams of bullshit and rehearsed.
Did Madeleine die on the 3rd of May? I don't believe so, I believe she died before that! GM and KM seemed to have distanced themselves from the group, not going to lunch with other group members and using different doors entering and leaving 5A. I don't believe it's plausible for KM and GM to keep their composure by dining out that night and the time lines to me makes it impossible to pull it off on the night of the 3rd of May.
Was David Payne involved? Yes he most certainly was and the reason I believe that is the Gaspars statements and his interaction with GM . I and millions of others would never allow a man to talk about my child in a clearly sexual way and if you do then clearly your comfortable to do that and that to me means TRUST! It was not just once he was heard speaking about a child and any father worth his salt would put an end to that kind of discussion about his own daughter ( punched in his dirty mouth if am honest ) There was trust there between GM and DP perhaps enough to ask him to say he saw Madeleine and the twins in late afternoon on the 3rd looking all angelic and white and happy! That to me screams of bullshit and rehearsed.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by DENNISSALLY 07.08.16 0:06
In my opinion not a hope in hell would all the members of the T group knowingly cover up the accidental death or other of a beautiful little girl they knew on a personal level. They believed themselves in the abduction and for that reason they covered their own backs and covered GM and KM's back in the checking.
As for Jane Tanner's sighting, God only knows, her discription morphed into so many different accounts I do ask myself was she fame hungry wanting to be so important in it all she got way over her head, if she gave a false statement to try and prove Madeleine was abducted then she was in on it up to her neck!
As for Jane Tanner's sighting, God only knows, her discription morphed into so many different accounts I do ask myself was she fame hungry wanting to be so important in it all she got way over her head, if she gave a false statement to try and prove Madeleine was abducted then she was in on it up to her neck!
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Guest 07.08.16 0:21
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You don't think it possible that all the group were complicit in a staged cover up - you think it probable that most of the group of friends believed the abduction claim - you think that Madeleine most likely disappeared before the night of 3rd May 2007.
How exactly does that compute?
Have you considered the possibility that the checking system/neglect issue was designed to give a hypothetical abductor the opportunity to hypothetically abduct?
You don't think it possible that all the group were complicit in a staged cover up - you think it probable that most of the group of friends believed the abduction claim - you think that Madeleine most likely disappeared before the night of 3rd May 2007.
How exactly does that compute?
Have you considered the possibility that the checking system/neglect issue was designed to give a hypothetical abductor the opportunity to hypothetically abduct?
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by DENNISSALLY 07.08.16 0:58
In my opinion absolutely not do I believe every member of that group covered up a accidental or other tragic event. If so and they did cover up the accidental or other tragic event then god help us the world is sicker than I think.
For what reason would they all cover it up? I have great life long friends and even family and never would I cover up knowingly cover up the death of a child or adult. If and thats if they did then why? I don't for a second believe it's connected to wife swapping or that all the group were in some way in some sort of child sex thing going on.
In my opinion and my personal views I don't for one second believe every member of that group knew Madeleine died in whatever circumstance and covered it up. It's not plausible to me that they were all told Madeleine had died and all decided to make a pact that they would say this or that, a pact yes to get stories straight to cover their own backs because they believed the abduction theory from KM and GM. Yes I believe DP had more input and more knowledge of what happened and again I say because there was trust between him and GM.
For what reason would they all cover it up? I have great life long friends and even family and never would I cover up knowingly cover up the death of a child or adult. If and thats if they did then why? I don't for a second believe it's connected to wife swapping or that all the group were in some way in some sort of child sex thing going on.
In my opinion and my personal views I don't for one second believe every member of that group knew Madeleine died in whatever circumstance and covered it up. It's not plausible to me that they were all told Madeleine had died and all decided to make a pact that they would say this or that, a pact yes to get stories straight to cover their own backs because they believed the abduction theory from KM and GM. Yes I believe DP had more input and more knowledge of what happened and again I say because there was trust between him and GM.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by DENNISSALLY 07.08.16 1:06
I don't believe Madeleine was abducted! If I did Verdi I wouldn't be here on this site.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by sharonl 07.08.16 9:12
If we consider the following:
The large number of contradictions in the statements of the McCanns and their friends (The friends wouldn't need to lie if they were completely innocent, therefore the McCanns would have to give truthful statement to correspond with those of the rest of the group and there would be fewer contradictions)
Jane Tanner & Russell O'Brien, together, created two different timelines of the events of that night.
Jane Tanner invented the only piece of evidence to support the abduction claim - Tannerman
According to a Daily Mail article, cadaver scent was found on Jane Tanners clothing
Both Jane Tanner and Robert Murats hair was found at the Sol e Mar apartment
Russel O'Brien was allegedly found to be at a dis-used Barn with Gerry, where Police found a blood stained towel with fibres matching some that were found in the McCanns Renault Scenic.
David Payne claimed to have seen Madeleine in the evening of May 3rd, on a visit to the McCanns apartment - its very unlikely that Madeleine was there, and also, due to major contradictions, that this visit actually took place.
David Payne said that this was their business and that they had pact of silence
Matthew contradicted himself on the checking of the McCann children
This is just for starters. And, if Madeleine had died on the Sunday, why did no one in the group tell the police that they hadn't seen Madeleine since then?
At the very least, David, Russel, Matthew and Jane must have been aware that there was no abduction. Their behaviour would have been much different if there had been.
I don't think that there is anything to suggest that Diane Webster was told the truth but I stand to be corrected.
According to a press report, the PJ suggested that the McCanns were swingers. The nannies, as we have seen were caught half stripped in a nightclub. It makes you wonder what kind of holiday this was.
The large number of contradictions in the statements of the McCanns and their friends (The friends wouldn't need to lie if they were completely innocent, therefore the McCanns would have to give truthful statement to correspond with those of the rest of the group and there would be fewer contradictions)
Jane Tanner & Russell O'Brien, together, created two different timelines of the events of that night.
Jane Tanner invented the only piece of evidence to support the abduction claim - Tannerman
According to a Daily Mail article, cadaver scent was found on Jane Tanners clothing
Both Jane Tanner and Robert Murats hair was found at the Sol e Mar apartment
Russel O'Brien was allegedly found to be at a dis-used Barn with Gerry, where Police found a blood stained towel with fibres matching some that were found in the McCanns Renault Scenic.
David Payne claimed to have seen Madeleine in the evening of May 3rd, on a visit to the McCanns apartment - its very unlikely that Madeleine was there, and also, due to major contradictions, that this visit actually took place.
David Payne said that this was their business and that they had pact of silence
Matthew contradicted himself on the checking of the McCann children
This is just for starters. And, if Madeleine had died on the Sunday, why did no one in the group tell the police that they hadn't seen Madeleine since then?
At the very least, David, Russel, Matthew and Jane must have been aware that there was no abduction. Their behaviour would have been much different if there had been.
I don't think that there is anything to suggest that Diane Webster was told the truth but I stand to be corrected.
According to a press report, the PJ suggested that the McCanns were swingers. The nannies, as we have seen were caught half stripped in a nightclub. It makes you wonder what kind of holiday this was.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by kaz 07.08.16 9:24
It's probably even SICKER than we relatively normal people are capable of believing and I am, unfortunately , rapidly coming to that conclusion. When I see photographs of the smiling , smirking McCanns taken mere days after their beautiful daughter's disappearance I am filled with horror and incomprehension. Are they HUMAN? And therein lies the problem. We judge them through the eyes of normality and I wonder sometimes if these errors of judgement are leading us astray with our theories. You and I couldn't doll up and dine out and hold 'normal' conversations with acquaintances hours after our child's demise but the McCanns? Remember Kate McCann the morning after the disappearance reading a statement on TV? Where were the red rimmed swollen eyes from crying, the bags from sleeplessness? Instead we had the vision of an immaculately made up, bejewelled Doctor Kate McCann.DENNISSALLY wrote:In my opinion absolutely not do I believe every member of that group covered up a accidental or other tragic event. If so and they did cover up the accidental or other tragic event then god help us the world is sicker than I think.
I do find it difficult to believe though that the ..................I'll be kind here..................that the 'accident' happened on the 3rd but if this wasn't the case the whole sorry business descends into a pit of evil. The cover ups , the forgeries , all those people willing to perjure themselves. My mind doesn't want to be tainted and fights going down that road but for the sake of a little girl who went on holiday and never came back I know I must.
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You cannot be serious
by Tony Bennett 07.08.16 9:35
So do you believe that on the evening of 3 May when:DENNISSALLY wrote:In my opinion absolutely not do I believe every member of that group covered up [an] accidental or other tragic event. If so and they did cover up the accidental or other tragic event then God help us the world is sicker than I think. For what reason would they all cover it up?...In my opinion, and my personal views, I don't for one second believe every member of that group knew Madeleine died in whatever circumstance and covered it up. It's not plausible to me that they were all told Madeleine had died and all decided to make a pact that they would say this or that...
* one of the Tapas group ripped off the cover of Madeleine's Sainsbury's Activity Sticker Book, and
* Russell O'Brien began writing two timelines on that cover, featuring Jane Tanner's sighting of an abductor at 9.15 to 9.20pm, and
* Jane Tanner maintained that she really had seen this abductor, whose description ('not a tourist' etc.) seems to have been based on fellow holidaymaker Wojchiech Krokowsk, and who later was certain it was Robert Murat, and later still said she was '60-80% sure' that an image of a man with a moustache and straggly hair was the very man she had seen back on 3 May...
...all genuinely, 100%, honest-to God, believed that Madeleine really had been abducted?
You do?
Serioulsy?
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by sallypelt 07.08.16 10:19
How do you explain Matt Oldfield's disjointed account of his visit on the evening of the 3rd of May? Don't you find it strange that this was the ONLY time that another member of the group, other than the children's own parents, "checked" on the McCanns children, and ONLY on the night that Madeleine disappeared.DENNISSALLY wrote:In my opinion absolutely not do I believe every member of that group covered up a accidental or other tragic event. If so and they did cover up the accidental or other tragic event then god help us the world is sicker than I think.
For what reason would they all cover it up? I have great life long friends and even family and never would I cover up knowingly cover up the death of a child or adult. If and thats if they did then why? I don't for a second believe it's connected to wife swapping or that all the group were in some way in some sort of child sex thing going on.
In my opinion and my personal views I don't for one second believe every member of that group knew Madeleine died in whatever circumstance and covered it up. It's not plausible to me that they were all told Madeleine had died and all decided to make a pact that they would say this or that, a pact yes to get stories straight to cover their own backs because they believed the abduction theory from KM and GM. Yes I believe DP had more input and more knowledge of what happened and again I say because there was trust between him and GM.
Here is a paragraph from another site. I will post it here, as it save me time typing it out, as it says everything I want to say about the visit:
Snipped
According to the McCanns, at 9.30pm Matthew Oldfield supposedly offers to check on Madeleine and the twins. However, there is something wrong about this account. Matthew Oldfield states that he did not see Madeleine. What good is a check to see if everything is alright which fails to check on Madeleine? He would be failing in his duty towards the McCanns if the scenario was genuine. Why didn’t he see Madeleine? Obviously, she wasn’t asleep in her bed. There are two factors here. One is that Matthew Oldfield was not prepared to state he saw Madeleine. It would mean he was the last person to see Madeleine alive, and make him a prime suspect when the police arrived, and mean he would be accused of perverting the course of justice if discovered to be lying. The second factor is that if he claimed he saw Madeleine, then it would cast doubt upon Jane Tanner’s alleged sighting of the abductor at 9.15pm.
End
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by kaz 07.08.16 10:47
It's also interesting that the original activity book timeline ( I say original because it appears to be the second timeline that formed the substance of the witness' statements ) Matt was conspicuously absent from the 9.30 - 9.55 time slot. The three additional entries concern Russell and Matt. To add them to the 'script' ( and I'm convinced it is a script) must have served an important function. I can't help but think Matthew's statement that he didn't actually see Madeleine was his bit of protection and it would probably be worthwhile checking up on his statements where he claimed to have seen Madeleine alive and well prior to the 3rd. Are any of these qualified to give him some sort of protection from being found out as a liar ? I can see my next hour is going to be busy!
The other addition to the later timeline makes sure that Russell has returned. Another important reason no doubt. Curious.
The other addition to the later timeline makes sure that Russell has returned. Another important reason no doubt. Curious.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by sallypelt 07.08.16 10:51
kaz wrote:It's also interesting that the original activity book timeline ( I say original because it appears to be the second timeline that formed the substance of the witness' statements ) Matt was conspicuously absent from the 9.30 - 9.55 time slot. The three additional entries concern Russell and Matt. To add them to the 'script' ( and I'm convinced it is a script) must have served an important function. I can't help but think Matthew's statement that he didn't actually see Madeleine was his bit of protection and it would probably be worthwhile checking up on his statements where he claimed to have seen Madeleine alive and well prior to the 3rd. Are any of these qualified to give him some sort of protection from perjury? I can see my next hour is going to be busy!
The other addition to the later timeline makes sure that Russell has returned. Another important reason no doubt. Curious.
Personally, I don't believe that Matt Oldfield was ever in the McCanns apartment. Why say the curtains were "green" (if he did say this, as some are claiming) when they were blue. Wouldn't it have been more convincing if he said "I never took any notice of the colour of the curtains".
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Carrry On Doctor 07.08.16 10:56
Great Post Tony
Your comprehensive reasoning for ruling out the evening of the 3rd is complimented by the many pointers to MBM not being around after Sunday/Monday of that week.
That aside, I would like to vote in the poll but my answer would be;
4. He already has.
We look forward to GA's second book.
Your comprehensive reasoning for ruling out the evening of the 3rd is complimented by the many pointers to MBM not being around after Sunday/Monday of that week.
That aside, I would like to vote in the poll but my answer would be;
4. He already has.
We look forward to GA's second book.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by sallypelt 07.08.16 11:01
Maybe it is worth posting Matt Oldfield's PJ statement, regarding what he SAID he did, on 3rd of May 2007:
Prompted to outline what had happened on 3 May, the deponent the following:
- he woke up about 06h30/07h00 going to take breakfast at Millennium at 08h00 with his wife and daughter. He does not recall who [else] was with them. He knows that GM, KM and their children did not breakfast there because they always did that in their apartment.
Regarding the other group members he cannot remember who was in the Millennium that morning. He is sure that he was not accompanied by the whole group given that they were not always accompanied by the same people during this meal - thinking that only DP or ROB would have been there with their respective children.
Adding that as each day passed there were fewer group members who went there for breakfast, opting to have it in their apartments, due to the distance of the restaurant from their residences.
After breakfast he walked to the beach, arriving about 09h30 to go sailing. He knows that on that morning DP and FP were also there, not recalling if he went there with either of those individuals or if they were already there when he arrived. He was sailing until about 11h00 due to which he was late for the tennis class he had booked for that time, together with his wife.
About 12h10 he went with his wife to pick up his daughter from kids club.
Subsequently the three of them went to the Payne apartment for lunch. He clarifies that he lunched there with the Paynes, their children and mother-in-law, and with ROB and JT. He does not recall if KM and GM were there. [a memory lapse? Surely, if you are lunching with someone, you would know who was there, it's not as if it was a big party]
Later, sometime between 13h30 and 14h00, he and his family went to their apartment to put their daughter down for a sleep, remaining there until about 14h15/14h30 - the time at which he decided to go to find ROB, he also having returned to his own flat, to call him for them both to go sailing.
After their sport (sometime between 15h30 and 15h45) they both went to the beach where they met up with the rest of the group, including children, staying there until about 17h00. He clarifies that GM, KM and their children were not at the beach.
Leaving the beach they went to the beach restaurant where they fed the children while the adults limited themselves to a few drinks.
About 18h00 he, ROB and DP went to a social men's tennis match, held in the above resort area, where they remained until about 19h00. He clarifies that when they arrived at that meeting GM was already there, with KM and her children watching the match, the rest of the women and children joining them [KM and children] later. [Didn't Kate say that after she picked up Madeleine from the crèche, Madeleine was pale and tired and therefore, stayed in the apartment. Wasn't this the evening that GM asked DP to go and see where Kate and the children were?]
At 19h00 he, ROB and DP had finished the match, having then gone to their respective apartments in which they found other members of the group.
The deponent said he stayed in his apartment until 19h45 at which time, together with his wife, he went to the Tapas restaurant where GM and KM were already and, from what was said afterwards, Jane. Later, about 20h50, ROB arrived.
The deponent added that DP, FP and DW were still not present - and as he could see their apartment lights burning - he resolved to go to them, clarifying that he did not reach that apartment as those people were already on their way to the restaurant. He clarifies [further] that he met them near the living quarters, at the corner next to the main door of the McCann apartment.
Benefiting from meeting them next to the residences, he adds that, on his own initiative, he made a 'listening check' at the bedroom window of MBM and the twins at 21h05. That he limited himself to approach the bedroom window on the outside of the apartment to check if the children were crying or awake.
He adds to have not heard any noise nor perceived anything out of the ordinary. He went on to do the same check at the bedroom windows of his daughter and ROB's daughters.
About 5/10 seconds after the checking he returned to the restaurant seeing that all other group members were already there. They proceeded to order dinner [immediately] after which GM went to his apartment to check his children.
Asked if, at that instant, JT also went to her flat, he says he does not recall, adding that they were gone at the same time as each other.
Prompted to outline what had happened on 3 May, the deponent the following:
- he woke up about 06h30/07h00 going to take breakfast at Millennium at 08h00 with his wife and daughter. He does not recall who [else] was with them. He knows that GM, KM and their children did not breakfast there because they always did that in their apartment.
Regarding the other group members he cannot remember who was in the Millennium that morning. He is sure that he was not accompanied by the whole group given that they were not always accompanied by the same people during this meal - thinking that only DP or ROB would have been there with their respective children.
Adding that as each day passed there were fewer group members who went there for breakfast, opting to have it in their apartments, due to the distance of the restaurant from their residences.
After breakfast he walked to the beach, arriving about 09h30 to go sailing. He knows that on that morning DP and FP were also there, not recalling if he went there with either of those individuals or if they were already there when he arrived. He was sailing until about 11h00 due to which he was late for the tennis class he had booked for that time, together with his wife.
About 12h10 he went with his wife to pick up his daughter from kids club.
Subsequently the three of them went to the Payne apartment for lunch. He clarifies that he lunched there with the Paynes, their children and mother-in-law, and with ROB and JT. He does not recall if KM and GM were there. [a memory lapse? Surely, if you are lunching with someone, you would know who was there, it's not as if it was a big party]
Later, sometime between 13h30 and 14h00, he and his family went to their apartment to put their daughter down for a sleep, remaining there until about 14h15/14h30 - the time at which he decided to go to find ROB, he also having returned to his own flat, to call him for them both to go sailing.
After their sport (sometime between 15h30 and 15h45) they both went to the beach where they met up with the rest of the group, including children, staying there until about 17h00. He clarifies that GM, KM and their children were not at the beach.
Leaving the beach they went to the beach restaurant where they fed the children while the adults limited themselves to a few drinks.
About 18h00 he, ROB and DP went to a social men's tennis match, held in the above resort area, where they remained until about 19h00. He clarifies that when they arrived at that meeting GM was already there, with KM and her children watching the match, the rest of the women and children joining them [KM and children] later. [Didn't Kate say that after she picked up Madeleine from the crèche, Madeleine was pale and tired and therefore, stayed in the apartment. Wasn't this the evening that GM asked DP to go and see where Kate and the children were?]
At 19h00 he, ROB and DP had finished the match, having then gone to their respective apartments in which they found other members of the group.
The deponent said he stayed in his apartment until 19h45 at which time, together with his wife, he went to the Tapas restaurant where GM and KM were already and, from what was said afterwards, Jane. Later, about 20h50, ROB arrived.
The deponent added that DP, FP and DW were still not present - and as he could see their apartment lights burning - he resolved to go to them, clarifying that he did not reach that apartment as those people were already on their way to the restaurant. He clarifies [further] that he met them near the living quarters, at the corner next to the main door of the McCann apartment.
Benefiting from meeting them next to the residences, he adds that, on his own initiative, he made a 'listening check' at the bedroom window of MBM and the twins at 21h05. That he limited himself to approach the bedroom window on the outside of the apartment to check if the children were crying or awake.
He adds to have not heard any noise nor perceived anything out of the ordinary. He went on to do the same check at the bedroom windows of his daughter and ROB's daughters.
About 5/10 seconds after the checking he returned to the restaurant seeing that all other group members were already there. They proceeded to order dinner [immediately] after which GM went to his apartment to check his children.
Asked if, at that instant, JT also went to her flat, he says he does not recall, adding that they were gone at the same time as each other.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Guest 07.08.16 12:28
I'm in two minds about Diane Webster. On the surface she appears to be the odd one out but I can never get my head around the fact that she willingly went along with the plan to leave all the children alone every night in their respective apartments. This is not normal grandmother behaviour. It's not as though she was part of the 'so into each other' gang - I'm frankly surprised she didn't volunteer to babysit every night.sharonl wrote:
I don't think that there is anything to suggest that Diane Webster was told the truth but I stand to be corrected.
According to a press report, the PJ suggested that the McCanns were swingers. The nannies, as we have seen were caught half stripped in a nightclub. It makes you wonder what kind of holiday this was.
Not that I believe the checking system story but failing that, the situation puts Diane Webster in a more precarious position.
Just for the record..
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I do however feel that 'swingers' is not quite the word applicable to the McCann gang.
Guest- Guest
When and where did Goncal Amaral abandon the PJ theory that Madeleine died after 5.30pm on 3 May 2007?
by Tony Bennett 07.08.16 12:35
@ Carrry On DoctorCarrry On Doctor wrote: ...I would like to vote in the poll but my answer would be;
4. He already has.
I am perplexed.
The poll question is: "Should Goncalo Amaral now abandon the PJ theory that Madeleine died AFTER 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007?"
Could you please point me to any link at all where Amaral has gone on the record and explicitly abandoned the claim that Madeleine died AFTER 5.30pm on 3 May 2007?
I'd be most grateful. I've never read anywhere that he has
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Guest 07.08.16 12:49
More especially a gregarious boisterous hulk + wife, with three very young excitable children running around. Who needs a colander to strain the cabbage when you've got the collective Tapas statements so full of holes.sallypelt wrote:
Subsequently the three of them went to the Payne apartment for lunch. He clarifies that he lunched there with the Paynes, their children and mother-in-law, and with ROB and JT. He does not recall if KM and GM were there. [a memory lapse? Surely, if you are lunching with someone, you would know who was there, it's not as if it was a big party]
Apart from a vague mention here and there with no back-up like tennis practice, the McCanns didn't appear to be interactive with the rest of the group after the initial arrival at the Ocean Club and possibly part of the next day.
Guest- Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Liz Eagles 07.08.16 12:54
I love your analogy.Verdi wrote:More especially a gregarious boisterous hulk + wife, with three very young excitable children running around. Who needs a colander to strain the cabbage when you've got the collective Tapas statements so full of holes.sallypelt wrote:
Subsequently the three of them went to the Payne apartment for lunch. He clarifies that he lunched there with the Paynes, their children and mother-in-law, and with ROB and JT. He does not recall if KM and GM were there. [a memory lapse? Surely, if you are lunching with someone, you would know who was there, it's not as if it was a big party]
Apart from a vague mention here and there with no back-up like tennis practice, the McCanns didn't appear to me interactive with the rest of the group after the initial arrival at the Ocean Club and possibly the next day.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Carrry On Doctor 07.08.16 13:07
Hi TonyTony Bennett wrote:@ Carrry On DoctorCarrry On Doctor wrote: ...I would like to vote in the poll but my answer would be;
4. He already has.
I am perplexed.
The poll question is: "Should Goncalo Amaral now abandon the PJ theory that Madeleine died AFTER 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007?"
Could you please point me to any link at all where Amaral has gone on the record and explicitly abandoned the claim that Madeleine died AFTER 5.30pm on 3 May 2007?
I'd be most grateful. I've never read anywhere that he has
I agree that he has never publicly said this, but he perhaps he couldn't due to ongoing legals.
My point is that I think he privately thinks this, and hopefully his next book will reveal his current and updated thoughts. A lot has changed between him first penning his book and now.
Just my opinion.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Liz Eagles 07.08.16 13:31
Goncalo Amaral can't be locked up for writing his book. As it is he stands to make a considerable amount of money from his book should the Lisbon fiasco ever end, and end in his favour. A second book in the offing (I stand to be corrected) may well be written but won't be published until there is a decision in Lisbon - until then it remains a bluff and something akin to a budgerigar puffing out its chest when under threat - I really await to be slaughtered for that remark.
The Portuguese legal system has allowed this fiasco and continues to drag out proceedings. Until there is a decision I don't expect to hear much from/about Goncalo Amaral, his new book or anything else.
Just my opinion.
The Portuguese legal system has allowed this fiasco and continues to drag out proceedings. Until there is a decision I don't expect to hear much from/about Goncalo Amaral, his new book or anything else.
Just my opinion.
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by DENNISSALLY 07.08.16 13:37
I will say again! I do not believe every member of the T group willingly and knowingly covered up the either accidental death or murder of Madeleine Mccann. I have went over it in my mind time and time again and it does not make logical sense to me no matter what other peoples opinions are. Yes I have strong suspicions that DP was in some way involved to what extent am not entirely sure but am sure it's deeply involved. I don't for a second believe they were all child molesters or that evil of a group that they would play a part in the cover up if they knew for sure GM and KM were involved in accidental or murder of their own daughter. Yes JT lied through her teeth about tanner man, her statements to the PJ prove that, it was so riddled with holes if it wasn't so serious it would be laughable. All our members know all their statements were so filled with holes of course they were covering up something and thats were I have to ask what were they covering up? The death of a child or their own backs. I apologise if my views are not pointing to them all being knowingly involved. I do not believe Madeleine was abducted and I would probably swing more to accidental death however not on the 3rd of May. Yes Kate and Gerry know exactly what happened most definitely DP possibly Another member of the group but until am convinced otherwise I have to fall short of naming them all.
I have never heard or seen in the files that Jane Tanner had cadaver scent found on her clothing, if am wrong on that and she did have then I most certainly will review my own thinking again.
I have never heard or seen in the files that Jane Tanner had cadaver scent found on her clothing, if am wrong on that and she did have then I most certainly will review my own thinking again.
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Re; Madeleine McCann 3 May 2007?
by willowthewisp 07.08.16 14:12
A lot of people are criticising the Portugal legal system on defamation claim by the Parents of Madeleine McCann, yet it is thought to be a "Coincidence" that Operation Grange has an an extremely closely timed association to the defamation case?
Especially so when the incredible "Funding" being extended to meet the apparent conclusions to be published from the Supreme Court of Justice,as to whether the case has been upheld in Mr Goncalo Amaral's favour,thought to be in October 2016 and the announcement of their investigation,Operation Grange funding ending when,on an ad hoc "Six Month Basis",just a coincidence?
Wake up people and smell the coffee
Especially so when the incredible "Funding" being extended to meet the apparent conclusions to be published from the Supreme Court of Justice,as to whether the case has been upheld in Mr Goncalo Amaral's favour,thought to be in October 2016 and the announcement of their investigation,Operation Grange funding ending when,on an ad hoc "Six Month Basis",just a coincidence?
Wake up people and smell the coffee
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Tony Bennett 07.08.16 18:21
@ DENNISSALLYDENNISSALLY wrote:I have never heard or seen in the files that Jane Tanner had cadaver scent found on her clothing, if am wrong on that and she did have then I most certainly will review my own thinking again.
There was a report in the Daily Mail of 26 September 2007 that 'dogs from South Yorkshire' had alerted to cadaver scent on one of the McCanns' friends:
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I am pretty sure this was covered in the Daily Telegraph as well, which is where I originally read about it.
Unfortunately all links to the articles are inaccessible to me for some reason, maybe someone else can provide them?
IIRC the arricle stated that SY police had travelled to Devon. So as Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien lived in Exeter, suspicion naturally fell on them.
Jane Tanner made a strange remark on the BBC Panorama documentary of November 2007 when she said 'I carried her' (again, if memory serves).
I think that is the basis for anyone suggesting that the smell of death was found on Jane Tanner's clothes.
P.S. After you've faced questions from Verdi, I hesitate to ask you another one. I noticed you are from Donegal. Out of curiosity, do you know anyone from the McCanns' extended family over there? No problem if you don't wish to answer
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Doug D 07.08.16 18:45
It's still there today, but in case it's whooshed by tomorrow here it is for posterity:
Madeleine: Sniffer dogs 'found scent of death' on one of the McCanns' friends
Last updated at 09:29 26 September 2007
Friends of the McCanns faced fresh allegations yesterday after it was claimed that sniffer dogs had found the "scent of death" on one of them.
The same police dog which reacted to Mrs McCann's clothes - first causing suspicion to fall on her - was alleged to have smelled "death" on one of the friends who had dinner with the couple the night Madeleine vanished.
Police sources briefed a Portuguese newspaper that two police dogs from South Yorkshire, trained to detect corpses, human remains and microscopic traces of blood, had reacted to some items of clothing.
Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell denied categorically that any such procedure had happened.
The newspaper did not reveal which of the friends' clothing was meant to have triggered the reaction. Police in South Yorkshire refused to comment.
Detectives are writing to British police asking them to re-interview the seven friends the McCanns dined with on the night Madeleine vanished.
Madeleine's parents were dining in a tapas restaurant just yards from the apartment in the Mark Warner Resort in the Algarve, Portugal, when their daughter disappeared.
She had been sleeping inside the apartment with her brother and sister, twins Sean and Amelie.
According to reports from Portugal, all of those dining with the McCanns that night face further police questioning because their accounts of the night's events allegedly clashed.
Leicestershire police have consistently refused to comment on its role in the investigation and directed all questions to Portugal.
A spokeswoman said: "As the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is a Portuguese police investigation it is not appropriate for us to comment on it. Our role is to assist the Portuguese authorities, when and if they request it, with UK based inquiries.
"But because it is a Portuguese investigation, and because of the judicial system there, we are not able to disclose the nature of those inquires."
The seven friends - who, with the McCanns, make up the Tapas Nine - have been steadfast in their loyalty to Madeleine's family.
The group - most of them doctors and professionals - was made up of:
Dr Russell O'Brien, 36
A consultant in acute medicine at the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital, he knew Gerry McCann from Leicester.
He was on holiday with his partner Jane Tanner and their two young daughters.
At 9.25pm he left the restaurant for around 25 minutes to check on one of the girls, who was ill.
He has been subject to a vicious Portuguese press campaign alleging he was absent for over an hour when Madeleine went missing. He has threatened to sue, insisting: "These reports are completely untrue and extremely hurtful."
Jane Tanner, 37
Dr O'Brien's partner. She arrived late at the tapas bar after treating their sick daughter.
On the way, she passed the McCanns' apartment and saw a man carrying a child. Crucially, her description of the child's clothes matched Madeleine's pink pyjamas.
Dr Matthew Oldfield, 37
Dr Oldfield, an endocrinologist at Kingston Hospital in South-West London, went to check the McCann children at 9 25pm.
But he did not look inside the flat - simply listened from outside to ensure Madeleine and the twins were not crying.
Rachael Oldfield, 36
Dr Oldfield's wife, a former lawyer who is now a recruitment consultant.
She is one of four witnesses who claim to have seen the first suspect, British expat Robert Murat, near the McCanns' flat.
Last month she angrily dismissed reports that police had intercepted phone calls and emails between the McCanns and their friends which contradicted the group's earlier statements.
Mrs Oldfield accused Portuguese police of "throwing mud when we are not able to defend oursleves"
David Payne, 41
Mr Payne is a senior research fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University
He and his wife and mother-in-law joined the group at 8.55pm.
They are believed to have been the only ones using a baby monitor to check on their two children.
Mr Payne has said: "All these smears and rumours are overshadowing the important thing, which is to get Madeleine back."
Dr Fiona Payne, 34
Mr Payne's wife, she is understood to have told police she saw Mr Murat shortly after Madeleine vanished.
Dr Payne and her husband stayed on in the Algarve to support the McCanns. When the couple were made official suspects, she said: "It's an outrage - a preposterous accusation."
Dianne Webster
Dr Payne's mother. She has given no public interviews.
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Madeleine: Sniffer dogs 'found scent of death' on one of the McCanns' friends
Last updated at 09:29 26 September 2007
Friends of the McCanns faced fresh allegations yesterday after it was claimed that sniffer dogs had found the "scent of death" on one of them.
The same police dog which reacted to Mrs McCann's clothes - first causing suspicion to fall on her - was alleged to have smelled "death" on one of the friends who had dinner with the couple the night Madeleine vanished.
Police sources briefed a Portuguese newspaper that two police dogs from South Yorkshire, trained to detect corpses, human remains and microscopic traces of blood, had reacted to some items of clothing.
Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell denied categorically that any such procedure had happened.
The newspaper did not reveal which of the friends' clothing was meant to have triggered the reaction. Police in South Yorkshire refused to comment.
Detectives are writing to British police asking them to re-interview the seven friends the McCanns dined with on the night Madeleine vanished.
Madeleine's parents were dining in a tapas restaurant just yards from the apartment in the Mark Warner Resort in the Algarve, Portugal, when their daughter disappeared.
She had been sleeping inside the apartment with her brother and sister, twins Sean and Amelie.
According to reports from Portugal, all of those dining with the McCanns that night face further police questioning because their accounts of the night's events allegedly clashed.
Leicestershire police have consistently refused to comment on its role in the investigation and directed all questions to Portugal.
A spokeswoman said: "As the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is a Portuguese police investigation it is not appropriate for us to comment on it. Our role is to assist the Portuguese authorities, when and if they request it, with UK based inquiries.
"But because it is a Portuguese investigation, and because of the judicial system there, we are not able to disclose the nature of those inquires."
The seven friends - who, with the McCanns, make up the Tapas Nine - have been steadfast in their loyalty to Madeleine's family.
The group - most of them doctors and professionals - was made up of:
Dr Russell O'Brien, 36
A consultant in acute medicine at the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital, he knew Gerry McCann from Leicester.
He was on holiday with his partner Jane Tanner and their two young daughters.
At 9.25pm he left the restaurant for around 25 minutes to check on one of the girls, who was ill.
He has been subject to a vicious Portuguese press campaign alleging he was absent for over an hour when Madeleine went missing. He has threatened to sue, insisting: "These reports are completely untrue and extremely hurtful."
Jane Tanner, 37
Dr O'Brien's partner. She arrived late at the tapas bar after treating their sick daughter.
On the way, she passed the McCanns' apartment and saw a man carrying a child. Crucially, her description of the child's clothes matched Madeleine's pink pyjamas.
Dr Matthew Oldfield, 37
Dr Oldfield, an endocrinologist at Kingston Hospital in South-West London, went to check the McCann children at 9 25pm.
But he did not look inside the flat - simply listened from outside to ensure Madeleine and the twins were not crying.
Rachael Oldfield, 36
Dr Oldfield's wife, a former lawyer who is now a recruitment consultant.
She is one of four witnesses who claim to have seen the first suspect, British expat Robert Murat, near the McCanns' flat.
Last month she angrily dismissed reports that police had intercepted phone calls and emails between the McCanns and their friends which contradicted the group's earlier statements.
Mrs Oldfield accused Portuguese police of "throwing mud when we are not able to defend oursleves"
David Payne, 41
Mr Payne is a senior research fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University
He and his wife and mother-in-law joined the group at 8.55pm.
They are believed to have been the only ones using a baby monitor to check on their two children.
Mr Payne has said: "All these smears and rumours are overshadowing the important thing, which is to get Madeleine back."
Dr Fiona Payne, 34
Mr Payne's wife, she is understood to have told police she saw Mr Murat shortly after Madeleine vanished.
Dr Payne and her husband stayed on in the Algarve to support the McCanns. When the couple were made official suspects, she said: "It's an outrage - a preposterous accusation."
Dianne Webster
Dr Payne's mother. She has given no public interviews.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Doug D 07.08.16 19:01
And the Telegraph report naming the PJ spokesman. This report is dated 15th August, which is pre-arguido date and 'confirms the parents are not suspects'.
The Mail article has obviously been updated post-arguido as it's dated 26th September and obviously includes no such claims.
Madeleine sniffer dogs detect scent of body
By Richard Edwards in Praia da Luz
6:38PM BST 15 Aug 2007
A British sniffer dog detected the scent of a body inside the apartment of Madeleine McCann, according to Portuguese police.
Olegario Sousa, a spokesman for the Policia Judiciaria, said they are now working on the assumption that the four year old is dead.
Police have played down the significance of the blood traces, saying they were not the “decisive” evidence in the case and that they remained convinced that Madeleine died on the night she disappeared.
Mr Sousa's comments came as Kate and Gerry McCann admitted for the first time that they have discussed returning home to Britain without their daughter.
The four-year-old went missing from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz 105 days ago and the couple have insisted they could not face leaving Portugal while the search continued.
But in an interview Mrs McCann said: "We know we will be going back and I guess one day we will wake up and it will be right.
"We never thought that we would go before she came back. Now we just don't know. We have the twins to consider.
"I can't imagine how we came out as a family of five and going back as a four."
After exhausting all leads suggesting Madeleine was abducted, police are now working on the theory she suffered an accident or was killed inside the flat.
They have confirmed that the parents are not suspects. Two specialist British sniffer dogs, one with the ability to find small traces of blood and the other a "victim" dog who can detect human remains, were brought in a fortnight ago.
Speaking to a Portuguese TV station, Mr Sousa said that they had traced the scent of a body inside the family apartment where Madeleine disappeared and found specks of blood.
Tests are still ongoing on spots of blood and the inside of the bedroom of the apartment and the McCann family have been told that results will only be confirmed next week.
However, a four-page interim report received by Portuguese police has concluded that the blood is not Madeleine’s. Forensic analysis suggests that there is a 72 per cent chance the sample is that of a white man of “northeast European” origin. The condition of the sample is poor because the wall had been cleaned with detergent.
Mr Sousa also tentatively suggested there could new suspects in the case depending on the results.
He said: "Naturally we could have new arguidos, depending on the result [of DNA tests] there could be a change in the procedural position of those involved in the case or, eventually, there could arise other people, others involved who until now are not known".
Mr Sousa insisted the results would not be "decisive" in the case and there were other signs "giving strength" to the theory that the child is dead.
However the evidence of the sniffer dogs, which were only used three months into the search for Madeleine, has thrown up more questions than answers.
Expert handlers said that dogs can only pick up the scent of a body which has been in situ for more than two hours.
The springer spaniels used can also detect small traces of blood up to seven years old, in which time hundreds of people have used the holiday apartment where they were found.
Earlier this week, Portugal's most senior police officer played down developments. Alípio Ribeiro, national director of the PJ, said that detectives were "far from throwing light on the case".
He added: "Despite the fact that new elements have appeared in the investigation we still do not know where they will lead us."
Mr Sousa said the case "is complex" and "extremely difficult to investigate".
He defended Portuguese police for missing the evidence found by the British sniffer dogs and added that police teams had found a lot of forensics.
"Never has there been collected so much evidence in a crime scene by specialised teams as in this situation," he said.
Police have not ruled out that Madeleine was abducted but have exhausted all leads suggesting so. All 490 guests staying on the same Ocean Club resort have been traced and spoken to.
No one, with the exception of one of the friends holidaying with the McCanns, saw anything suspicious in the area.
Meanwhile, Mr and Mrs McCann have been kept in the dark by police of recent developments and the apparent "shift" in the investigation.
Last week the couple were upset and set back when detectives took a cold, "formal" tone with them at their regular update meeting. Mr McCann said he felt the investigation has gone "back to square one".
In the past 10 days the couple have faced the hardest period since Madeleine disappeared, as Portuguese press turned suspicions on them.
Mrs McCann attacked the local journalists as being "aggressive and intrusive" but said she would not be hounded out of Portugal. Mr McCann said dealing with the intense scrutiny had come as a shock after a quiet period in the case in July.
He said: "The frenzy that built up last week, with the resumed searches and a clear shift in the investigation - if that had happened in the first week or two we would have been prepared for it."
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The Mail article has obviously been updated post-arguido as it's dated 26th September and obviously includes no such claims.
Madeleine sniffer dogs detect scent of body
By Richard Edwards in Praia da Luz
6:38PM BST 15 Aug 2007
A British sniffer dog detected the scent of a body inside the apartment of Madeleine McCann, according to Portuguese police.
Olegario Sousa, a spokesman for the Policia Judiciaria, said they are now working on the assumption that the four year old is dead.
Police have played down the significance of the blood traces, saying they were not the “decisive” evidence in the case and that they remained convinced that Madeleine died on the night she disappeared.
Mr Sousa's comments came as Kate and Gerry McCann admitted for the first time that they have discussed returning home to Britain without their daughter.
The four-year-old went missing from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz 105 days ago and the couple have insisted they could not face leaving Portugal while the search continued.
But in an interview Mrs McCann said: "We know we will be going back and I guess one day we will wake up and it will be right.
"We never thought that we would go before she came back. Now we just don't know. We have the twins to consider.
"I can't imagine how we came out as a family of five and going back as a four."
After exhausting all leads suggesting Madeleine was abducted, police are now working on the theory she suffered an accident or was killed inside the flat.
They have confirmed that the parents are not suspects. Two specialist British sniffer dogs, one with the ability to find small traces of blood and the other a "victim" dog who can detect human remains, were brought in a fortnight ago.
Speaking to a Portuguese TV station, Mr Sousa said that they had traced the scent of a body inside the family apartment where Madeleine disappeared and found specks of blood.
Tests are still ongoing on spots of blood and the inside of the bedroom of the apartment and the McCann family have been told that results will only be confirmed next week.
However, a four-page interim report received by Portuguese police has concluded that the blood is not Madeleine’s. Forensic analysis suggests that there is a 72 per cent chance the sample is that of a white man of “northeast European” origin. The condition of the sample is poor because the wall had been cleaned with detergent.
Mr Sousa also tentatively suggested there could new suspects in the case depending on the results.
He said: "Naturally we could have new arguidos, depending on the result [of DNA tests] there could be a change in the procedural position of those involved in the case or, eventually, there could arise other people, others involved who until now are not known".
Mr Sousa insisted the results would not be "decisive" in the case and there were other signs "giving strength" to the theory that the child is dead.
However the evidence of the sniffer dogs, which were only used three months into the search for Madeleine, has thrown up more questions than answers.
Expert handlers said that dogs can only pick up the scent of a body which has been in situ for more than two hours.
The springer spaniels used can also detect small traces of blood up to seven years old, in which time hundreds of people have used the holiday apartment where they were found.
Earlier this week, Portugal's most senior police officer played down developments. Alípio Ribeiro, national director of the PJ, said that detectives were "far from throwing light on the case".
He added: "Despite the fact that new elements have appeared in the investigation we still do not know where they will lead us."
Mr Sousa said the case "is complex" and "extremely difficult to investigate".
He defended Portuguese police for missing the evidence found by the British sniffer dogs and added that police teams had found a lot of forensics.
"Never has there been collected so much evidence in a crime scene by specialised teams as in this situation," he said.
Police have not ruled out that Madeleine was abducted but have exhausted all leads suggesting so. All 490 guests staying on the same Ocean Club resort have been traced and spoken to.
No one, with the exception of one of the friends holidaying with the McCanns, saw anything suspicious in the area.
Meanwhile, Mr and Mrs McCann have been kept in the dark by police of recent developments and the apparent "shift" in the investigation.
Last week the couple were upset and set back when detectives took a cold, "formal" tone with them at their regular update meeting. Mr McCann said he felt the investigation has gone "back to square one".
In the past 10 days the couple have faced the hardest period since Madeleine disappeared, as Portuguese press turned suspicions on them.
Mrs McCann attacked the local journalists as being "aggressive and intrusive" but said she would not be hounded out of Portugal. Mr McCann said dealing with the intense scrutiny had come as a shock after a quiet period in the case in July.
He said: "The frenzy that built up last week, with the resumed searches and a clear shift in the investigation - if that had happened in the first week or two we would have been prepared for it."
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by Guest 07.08.16 20:30
Okay so I'll follow your example and I will say again, only this time hopefully in simple terms.DENNISSALLY wrote:I will say again! I do not believe every member of the T group willingly and knowingly covered up the either accidental death of Madeleine Mccann.
If, as you think, all the Tapas gang were not complicit with a ploy to cover-up Madeleine's alleged disappearance and as you think, Madeleine met her fate prior to the night of 3rd May 2007 - where do you think the friends thought Madeleine was between being abducted and the alert raised by Kate McCann at approx. 10:00 pm. Surely, as they were party to the fabricated time-line written on Madeleine's sticker book cover on the night of 3rd May, they would be curious to know why the time-line for that night was necessary when Madeleine had previously been abducted?
Are you reading me?
Can you also please explain why you think the group needed to protect their future through fear of neglect charges, when it would be so much easier to invent a different story for their night child care arrangements rather than openly admit they left their children alone every night? Before replying, bear in mind that there were no reliable independent witnesses to contradict their version of events.
Guest- Guest
Re: Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
by DENNISSALLY 08.08.16 1:05
I absolutely believe Madeleine WAS NOT ABDUCTED! I have never stated that, sorry if my posts are coming across wrong Tony.
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» The British Ambassador’s .phone call to Alipio Ribeira at 11.00pm on Thursday 3 May 2007: Is this yet more evidence of a pre-planned state cover-up of Madeleine’s death on Sunday 29 April?
» Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
» Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007
» Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, comments on Maddie case on FOX
» The British Ambassador’s .phone call to Alipio Ribeira at 11.00pm on Thursday 3 May 2007: Is this yet more evidence of a pre-planned state cover-up of Madeleine’s death on Sunday 29 April?
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