The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

The PJ must have had bi-lingual detective/s to hand from the onset, or nothing would have gotten off the ground surely.

The translator was likely Gaynor de Jesus who apparently translated for the police and Sky news?

Apparently David Pilditch had 'indirect conversations' with the police via the two journalists.  If he needed more information on something they could sometimes relay the answer.

Other info was discovered by talking to people to get an idea of the lines of inquiry that the police were following/asking confirmed by several people.

I see nothing to suggest he was finding this info (August 17th etc) from what is suggested was spread by TM.

NickE wrote:This is snipped from an Daily Mail article from 13 September 2007,take a look at the last lines. 
The article is now deleted by DM and this is the original link to the article
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Confusion is good.

From what I have seen the 'Rubbish' comment may have come from the suggestion of 'Violent and out of control' as opposed to just hearing the crying though that could be associated

I don't think violent and out of control would have been a comment supplied by TM

Daily Mail

The new questions that Kate McCann may have to face

by SAM GREENHILL
Last updated at 00:03am on 14th September 2007

Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives in the flat above, is reported to have heard Madeleine crying for her 'daddy' and sounds of 'violence'. Mrs Fenn has since denied she told police any such thing.



-----------------------------------
Daily Mail

'Gerry is not Madeleine's real father': The Portuguese media's latest attack on the McCanns

Last updated at 01:03 12 September 2007
Pamela Fenn, who was in an apartment above the family on May 3 - the night Madeleine disappeared - is quoted as saying she believed Mrs McCann sometimes became violent and "out of control" in the room below.


She claimed that "the little girl's screams calling for her daddy were very audible".

Another witness is quoted as saying that Mrs McCann "seemed to have moments of aggressiveness towards her children" and that her husband, "though more absent, had more emotional control".

-----------------------------------

Daily Mail

'Gerry is not Madeleine's real father': The Portuguese media's latest attack on the McCanns

Last updated at 01:03 12 September 2007


-----------------------------
The reports also quoted witnesses who have given statements to police.

Pamela Fenn, who was in an apartment above the family on May 3 - the night Madeleine disappeared - is quoted as saying she believed Mrs McCann sometimes became violent and "out of control" in the room below.

------------------------------------

Just a guess, but if Mrs. Fenn didn't even know the family was in there, 'rubbish' would seem to refer to both 'violent and out of control' sounds, AND  a child crying for her daddy.

But where did these stories originate? I have never seen these press reports before and I find them shocking.

worriedmum wrote:But where did these stories originate? I have never seen these press reports before and I find them shocking.

Hard to tell but from what I can ee.. Sol spoke to Mrs Fenn on Friday 17th but she didnt appear to give any details... Only that (whether to Sol or another media) that she was speaking to police on Monday...

David Pilditch seemed to be the first to have an article about the crying etc after speaking to one of Mrs Fenn's friends (not Edna Glynn) on Friday 17th...the day the PJ first heard about the results from FSS (not the official results) and they had organised some of the Ocean club staff and Mrs Fenn to be interviewed on the Monday

I have been methodically trying to read all the press reports regarding Mrs Fenn or her comments and have compiled this thread...



Title: Mrs Fenn press reports from Maddie Case Files
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Thank you HideHo, is that 17th May?  So do we know if this friend of Mrs Fenn is real?

worriedmum wrote:Thank you HideHo, is that 17th May?  So do we know if this friend of Mrs Fenn is real?

We don't know how 'real she is... it was August 17th and was spoken to by David Pilditch, who I believe made efforts to write the truth...at least as much as he could...



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Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

HiDeHo wrote:

worriedmum wrote:Thank you HideHo, is that 17th May?  So do we know if this friend of Mrs Fenn is real?

We don't know how 'real she is... it was August 17th and was spoken to by David Pilditch, who I believe made efforts to write the truth...at least as much as he could...



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Thank you

Can we assume that the friend was a she?

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

Forgive me for once again asking you to back up your opinion but just when and how was the question mark removed from when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident? In my opinion it has not been removed or else we would have closure on this issue.

Reverting to my recent comment about the authenticity of Carole Tranmer's alleged unseen statement taken by an unnamed police officer in May 2007 and the subsequent alleged visit by someone said to be from Reading, Mrs Tranmer's rogatory interview continues thus..

DC1485'What did he do'

CT'He, well, he assigned a document to confirm that I was correct but it was all on computer and'humm'he took it back to Reading.

DC1485'He was from Reading'

CT'He worked for the Reading Police, so I assumed he was legitimate.

DC1485'Did he leave a card or another contact'

CT'Humm...

DC1485'Is the name recognisable'

CT'No, but it was all noted by the Police in Reading.

DC1485'Where did they go'

CT'They, they went to my office.

DC1485'They went to your office'

CT'Yes.

DC1485'How many of them were there'

CT'Only one, with a laptop.

DC1485'I am not suggesting that he, he'

CT'I was going to say that, I hope he was legitimate, this was a long time ago.

DC1485'Yes, I am not suggesting this, simply, I want you to help me find him.

CT'I, I do not remember his name, humm.

DC1485'You told me that he was young'

CT'Yes, a young person.

DC1485'He was in his youth'

CT'Well, a computer genious, but not one of those weird looking ones, you know'hum, very much younger'humm, he was around 25 or something.

Dc1485'Okay.

CT'Dark hair, hum'short, yes, I remember that he was very short, humm'and was only'

DC1485'You have a fantastic memory, did you know that'

CT' (laughs) Perhaps this has something to do with my past, because I was working, hummm'my other organisation was, hummm'called Reading because it was all organized by them.

DC1485'Good, I will ask you to contact us first, unless you have a preference'

CT'I can check in my agenda when I get home.

DC1485'And call me after or'

DC1485'I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working, I was better organised compared to when I do nothing.

DC1485'Okay.

CT'Perhaps there is something about his name.

DC1485'Because he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your agenda.

CT'I would have noted it as I had to also book the room.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'I remember this, yes....
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According to this interview, there should have been a follow-up communication which I don't think has ever been revealed.

It would appear from this interview that the visit from Reading for Carol Tranmer to help with an identi-kit was unconfirmed.  Could that also be the situation with the statement said to have been taken on 8th May 2007?  Is this the reason why Carol Tranmer was interviewed by rogatory?

I hope this is clear.  I've tried to cut out anything that doesn't directly address my point but the interview is not very clear.

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

Forgive me for once again asking you to back up your opinion but just when and how was the question mark removed from when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident? In my opinion it has not been removed or else we would have closure on this issue.

If any of us could back up our opinions we would have closure on all of it.  I didn't say it the question mark was removed I said it was my opinion.  You have given your opinion I have given mine would you like to back up your opinion?

pennylane wrote:The PJ must have had bi-lingual detective/s to hand from the onset, or nothing would have gotten off the ground surely.

Exactly.

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

If you follow the sequence of events on the night of 3rd/4th May 2007 and the GNR/PJ's initial reaction to the situation, there wasn't any need for the police to speak directly to the McCanns or any of their friends.  The recorded details show a situation of total chaos, quite understandable under the circumstances, with just about everyone in the immediate vicinity offering assistance, including Portuguese Ocean Club staff.  As matters evolved the following day, then the Tapas group were required to give formal interviews conducted by the PJ - enter Robert Murat.

There is no indication that the information forthcoming on the night of 3rd/4th May was a strict account of events given by the Tapas group direct to the GNR/PJ.  I believe it was more likely an account of events as portrayed by a go-between.

plebgate wrote:

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

Forgive me for once again asking you to back up your opinion but just when and how was the question mark removed from when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident? In my opinion it has not been removed or else we would have closure on this issue.

If any of us could back up our opinions we would have closure on all of it.  I didn't say it the question mark was removed I said it was my opinion.  You have given your opinion I have given mine would you like to back up your opinion?

Frankly this entire thread backs up my opinion. I have seen nothing to prove Mrs. Fenn told the police about a crying incident prior to her statement to the PJ in August. There is more evidence to suggest she 'didn't even know the family was in there' than there is of an early statement on the crying incident, which coincidentally is helpful to TM's position that nothing happened to Madeleine prior to the evening of May 3rd. (Yours as well, again not coincidentally to your position on Mrs. Fenn's credibility I'd wager)

This isn't a parlor game where there is no wrong answer. We must apply the rules of evidence and logic. If any one of us here were a police investigator confronted with a witness who claims she was burgled but can't produce a police report; claims she heard a subsequently abducted child crying hysterically 2 days before she disappeared but we could find no evidence to prove she had mentioned it prior to her statement made 3 months later; and had claimed in the press that she didn't even know the family was in there and that it's all 'rubbish', we would be left with no choice but to conclude the statements of the witness lack credibility and dismiss their utility to the investigation. (And be left to wonder if perhaps some interested party had pressured her into making the statement)

Yet here we are, still arguing about whether her statements are credible when truthfully the balance of the evidence is weighted heavily on one side of this issue.
This is not to say that evidence could not be brought forward sometime in the future which would bolster the claim of a crying incident, at which time I will admit that I was wrong about the poor dear lady, but I haven't seen it yet.

What do you suggest happened when the local police turn up verdi after the disappearance of a little girl was reported?

Nobody spoke to the Tapas crew until the following day?

Can anyone seriously believe that there were no translators there that evening and that no police officers spoke to the Tapas crew or anyone else to ask if they had seen or heard anything which might help to find the child?

There is no escaping that there are two references in the files that suggest that early in May 2007  the police knew of the crying incident and that Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.

We can make of it what we will but I know which makes more sense to me.

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

Forgive me for once again asking you to back up your opinion but just when and how was the question mark removed from when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident? In my opinion it has not been removed or else we would have closure on this issue.

If any of us could back up our opinions we would have closure on all of it.  I didn't say it the question mark was removed I said it was my opinion.  You have given your opinion I have given mine would you like to back up your opinion?

Frankly this entire thread backs up my opinion. I have seen nothing to prove Mrs. Fenn told the police about a crying incident prior to her statement to the PJ in August. There is more evidence to suggest she 'didn't even know the family was in there' than there is of an early statement on the crying incident, which coincidentally is helpful to TM's position that nothing happened to Madeleine prior to the evening of May 3rd. (Yours as well, again not coincidentally to your position on Mrs. Fenn's credibility I'd wager)

This isn't a parlor game where there is no wrong answer. We must apply the rules of evidence and logic. If any one of us here were a police investigator confronted with a witness who claims she was burgled but can't produce a police report; claims she heard a subsequently abducted child crying hysterically 2 days before she disappeared but we could find no evidence to prove she had mentioned it prior to her statement made 3 months later; and had claimed in the press that she didn't even know the family was in there and that it's all 'rubbish', we would be left with no choice but to conclude the statements of the witness lack credibility and dismiss their utility to the investigation. (And be left to wonder if perhaps some interested party had pressured her into making the statement)

Yet here we are, still arguing about whether her statements are credible when truthfully the balance of the evidence is weighted heavily on one side of this issue.
This is not to say that evidence could not be brought forward sometime in the future which would bolster the claim of a crying incident, at which time I will admit that I was wrong about the poor dear lady, but I haven't seen it yet.

Yes we all believe that the evidence backs up our own opinions and that we will admit in future if we are wrong, but our opinions are from reading the files and there is mention of the interview on 8th May 2007 and there is also mention that the GNR officer was aware of the crying incident in early May.   You cannot escape that no matter what your opinion is.   IMO of course.

plebgate wrote:

pennylane wrote:The PJ must have had bi-lingual detective/s to hand from the onset, or nothing would have gotten off the ground surely.

Exactly.

Y'all are preaching to the choir on this one. I may be wrong but nobody has argued that there were no English speakers on the police force who could have spoken to Mrs. Fenn. Indeed the idea seems inconceivable on its face. The problem is that there is no evidence that she told them anything of interest. Surely a statement on the very night that a child, 'not a baby of 2', crying hysterically 2 days before she disappeared would have been of great interest to the police and would have featured prominently in the files.

As dottyaussie asked where is the statement in the files from Mrs. Fenn's niece Carol given on 8th May, 2007 ?

We all know that not everything has been released or do you definitely know that there is nothing in the withheld files about these statements?

plebgate wrote:

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

Forgive me for once again asking you to back up your opinion but just when and how was the question mark removed from when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident? In my opinion it has not been removed or else we would have closure on this issue.

If any of us could back up our opinions we would have closure on all of it.  I didn't say it the question mark was removed I said it was my opinion.  You have given your opinion I have given mine would you like to back up your opinion?

Frankly this entire thread backs up my opinion. I have seen nothing to prove Mrs. Fenn told the police about a crying incident prior to her statement to the PJ in August. There is more evidence to suggest she 'didn't even know the family was in there' than there is of an early statement on the crying incident, which coincidentally is helpful to TM's position that nothing happened to Madeleine prior to the evening of May 3rd. (Yours as well, again not coincidentally to your position on Mrs. Fenn's credibility I'd wager)

This isn't a parlor game where there is no wrong answer. We must apply the rules of evidence and logic. If any one of us here were a police investigator confronted with a witness who claims she was burgled but can't produce a police report; claims she heard a subsequently abducted child crying hysterically 2 days before she disappeared but we could find no evidence to prove she had mentioned it prior to her statement made 3 months later; and had claimed in the press that she didn't even know the family was in there and that it's all 'rubbish', we would be left with no choice but to conclude the statements of the witness lack credibility and dismiss their utility to the investigation. (And be left to wonder if perhaps some interested party had pressured her into making the statement)

Yet here we are, still arguing about whether her statements are credible when truthfully the balance of the evidence is weighted heavily on one side of this issue.
This is not to say that evidence could not be brought forward sometime in the future which would bolster the claim of a crying incident, at which time I will admit that I was wrong about the poor dear lady, but I haven't seen it yet.

Yes we all believe that the evidence backs up our own opinions and that we will admit in future if we are wrong, but our opinions are from reading the files and there is mention of the interview on 8th May 2007 and there is also mention that the GNR officer was aware of the crying incident in early May.   You cannot escape that no matter what your opinion is.   IMO of course.

You cannot escape the fact that the GNR officer was relating something he was told by a third party. You cannot escape the fact that the mention of a May 8th interview came months and mon5later and cannot be produced. The evidentiary value of both is precisely nil.

pennylane wrote:The PJ must have had bi-lingual detective/s to hand from the onset, or nothing would have gotten off the ground surely.

Possible of course but I think highly unlikely.  Think if the same situation arose in the UK and it was a Portuguese national who lost a child.  I doubt if Leicester police (for example) would have a bi-lingual English/Portuguese officer on duty.

It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all....

A lady called Sílvia, who worked at the Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with translation. We learned later that she was the maintenance and services manager. I remember her telling methat she had two grown-up daughters herself. She was very kind and I was glad of her help and support.

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

It should be noted that this is the same Silvia Baptista who allegedly advised the McCanns to use the Ocean Club night child care service.