Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

by whodunit 03.06.16 19:13

aquila wrote:
Nina wrote:Poor Mrs Fenn RIP. Being called a liar.
I don't think Mrs. Fenn is being called a liar. I think she was easily preyed upon. A single lady, an octogenarian expat with possibly nothing in her life going on other than to speak to other expats on the telephone and along comes Jenny Murat, the doyenne of PdL who sets up her own campaign whilst her son is translating for the police.

You're quite right here Nina, poor Mrs. Fenn.

Quite so.

by Doug D 03.06.16 19:44

Mrs Fenn 20^th August 2007:

‘When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.’

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Absolutely no mention of burglars leaping through windows to escape and her grabbing their heel etc, although the PJ must have at least spoken to her before this date, but we have no idea what was said.

Carole Tranmer gave a statement to the Leicester police on 15^th May 2008 as well as her original one on 8^th May 2007, but the original has not been released. Again no mention of an attempted burglary at Mrs Fenn’s in the second statement, which she surely would have been questioned on if it had been mentioned before, as the Officer went through previous details for clarification.

‘ Do you confirm your Statements, taken by the British Police in the United Kingdom, on 8th May, 2007?’

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OT as such, but she did however hand over photos to the police taken on Sunday 29^th around lunchtime, taken on the balcony and as she was back at the OC during the day on the Thursday it is quite likely she took some more photos then. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see them to gauge the weather and activity levels around the pool and surroundings. Not going to happen of course.

She also talks about the weather in her statement:

‘they were taken on Sunday, a lovely sunny day where we were seated, as was usual, on the terrace’

'It was good, sunny and hot. At times it was necessary to use a sweater but during the day it was marvellous. Besides this, it was fresh and but very agreeable.’

'I believe it rained one day; it was a bit windy, besides this... it was wonderful weather ' not for sun bathing, even though there were people doing just this but it was not really sun bathing weather.’

by pennylane 03.06.16 19:45

Nina wrote:Poor Mrs Fenn RIP. Being called a liar.

By some perhaps, but certainly not by me, Nina! hello

by whodunit 03.06.16 20:00

I probably shouldn't do this but I can't help myself.

Mrs. Fenn died an old woman after a good long life.

Madeleine McCann was a tiny child who had barely begun to live her life.

We are here trying to find some sort of truth and justice for this child.

For that reason, if an old woman was dishonest, for whatever reason, in her statements about events surrounding the death of this poor child--and it very much appears that she was--- then dead or not her statements deserve scrutiny and even censure. If it comes down to a choice between sentimentality over a deceased, elderly woman and truth for Madeleine I choose Madeleine.

[and frankly it beggars belief that a woman, elderly or not, would not call someone to come and check on a child who has been crying 'daddy daddy' for over an hour, becoming 'increasingly' distressed. who in their right mind wouldn't be thinking of dire scenarios, such as the parents may be lying dead in the apartment as the child wails her head off? I could never in a million years ignore a child's cries for that long. Heck, I couldn't ignore the wailing of a kitten for that long without checking on it myself]

by Verdi 03.06.16 20:29

Doug D wrote:‘she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open,’

Just a fairly random thought, the parents supposedly arrived when ‘she heard the patio doors open’.

It has been suggested in the past that the crying could have been a frantic KM, sobbing “Maddie, Maddie”.

If it had been a frantic KM needing to be restrained, hence all the bruising, once some sort of calm was restored, could it have been the patio doors being opened to let some air in or for them to go out onto the balcony rather than coming in?

Three months down the road, would you remember exactly when the crying stopped; as soon as the doors opened or a few minutes before?

Yes, I've seen that suggested in the past and ignored it then as I shall do now. Pamela Fenn's witness statement continues as follows..

She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

I'm no Robert Winston but even I can differentiate between the cry of a very young child and that of a grown woman. That aside, Kate McCann doesn't strike me as someone who would put the welfare of her child above herself - as far as her public persona is concerned, she hasn't even shown any true remorse over her little daughters disappearance; despite her false fears that her child was in the hands of a paedophile tearing her little genitals apart!!! What a diabolical thing to write for public consumption - the woman surpasses all resemblance of normality.

by plebgate 03.06.16 20:32

plebgate wrote:
Get'emGonçalo wrote:
plebgate wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:I wonder if we might be able to know the numbers that were trace by some clever man few years ago possably was on MCF. It is too much for me to do a good job on subject, but it did show where and when these calls were made . does anyone recall this subject being talked about? joyce1938
I remember (I think it was Paulo Reis) posting on 3As a long time ago that there were pings from Mrs.' mobile phone in the vicinity of the apartment but the pings could not place her as actually being in the apartment.

ETA somebody also posted that it could have been someone else using the phone.
Paulo Reis - The deleted call records:Where Was Kate McCann? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks GEG.

I also found this:

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by Verdi 03.06.16 20:41

Doug D wrote:‘she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open,’

Just a fairly random thought, the parents supposedly arrived when ‘she heard the patio doors open’.

If the McCanns had left the patio door unlocked for their friends to come and go with their child checking system (although their respective statements contradict the claim), it could have been anybody entering or leaving the apartment.

Who knows, it might have been the actual time David Payne visited apartment 5a or Matt Oldfield when he saw the twins breathing but didn't notice Madeleine in the same room - not that I believe for a moment that the patio door was left unlocked, at least not for the purpose claimed.

by Columbo 03.06.16 20:44

whodunit wrote:

[and frankly it beggars belief that a woman, elderly or not, would not call someone to come and check on a child who has been crying 'daddy daddy' for over an hour, becoming 'increasingly' distressed. who in their right mind wouldn't be thinking of dire scenarios, such as the parents may be lying dead in the apartment as the child wails her head off? I could never in a million years ignore a child's cries for that long. Heck, I couldn't ignore the wailing of a kitten for that long without checking on it myself]

I'm not a parent so perhaps some of you who are can help me with this. 75 minutes *continuous* crying seems like an awful long time for a child to cry. If nothing else, I'd have thought the child would tire itself out.

Also, as I posted somewhere above, 75 minutes seems a curiously exact length of time to specify, rather than "about an hour" or "just over an hour".

by Verdi 03.06.16 20:48

I venture to suggest that a child most definitely would not cry hysterically for that length of time - a few whimpers - a full blown squawk - a grizzle - a few more whimpers.

I'm wondering if perhaps Mrs Fenn had a stop watch at hand.

I'm still at a loss to understand why she phoned a friend about the incident, rather than contacting the Ocean Club reception so they could in turn locate the parents - much like Warner's child care arrangements.

by plebgate 03.06.16 20:56

I doubt she had a stop watch, but probably a clock or two around the home.

by Verdi 03.06.16 20:56

whodunit wrote:
BarryTheHatchet wrote:

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.
But according to all of those reports above, she didn't actually say anything at all. The MSM did, though, and we all know how truthful they are. No wonder the poor woman didn't want to get involved.

I am as skeptical and distrustful of the MSM as the next person but I am reluctant to believe they made up the burglary story out of whole cloth. I can believe they were 'receiving' accounts of a burglary from 'sources close to the investigation' ie Clarence Mitchell, but many of the stories involved Mrs. Fenn's niece who could have publicly contradicted the reports but afaik she did not..

I believe Mrs. Fenn was either coerced or otherwise prevailed upon to fabricate both incidents, burglary/crying. It cleared up SO many dilemmas for TM at a crucial point in the investigation. Just too, too convenient and frankly not at all plausible but it did the [PR] job.

Never mind the quality - feel the width!

by worriedmum 03.06.16 21:00

Verdi wrote:I venture to suggest that a child most definitely would not cry hysterically for that length of time - a few whimpers - a full blown squawk - a grizzle - a few more whimpers.

I'm wondering if perhaps Mrs Fenn had a stop watch at hand.

I'm still at a loss to understand why she phoned a friend about the incident, rather than contacting the Ocean Club reception so they could in turn locate the parents - much like Warner's child care arrangements.

Verdi, I left my firstborn with a friend (who had had five children), for two hours while I went to a Governors' Meeting. He started bawling the minute I left and was still giving it some welly when I returned two hours later. Apparently he had cried non-stop. He was one. It depends on the child.

by Verdi 03.06.16 21:01

plebgate wrote:I doubt she had a stop watch, but probably a clock or two around the home.

I hear a dog barking in the vicinity, I'm going about my business and later realize it's still barking - I wonder why. Maybe it continues barking without my particular notice until later - is that dog still barking?

Ask me what time it started barking and what time it stopped, I haven't a clue.

by Verdi 03.06.16 21:02

worriedmum wrote:
Verdi wrote:I venture to suggest that a child most definitely would not cry hysterically for that length of time - a few whimpers - a full blown squawk - a grizzle - a few more whimpers.

I'm wondering if perhaps Mrs Fenn had a stop watch at hand.

I'm still at a loss to understand why she phoned a friend about the incident, rather than contacting the Ocean Club reception so they could in turn locate the parents - much like Warner's child care arrangements.
Verdi, I left my firstborn with a friend (who had had five children), for two hours while I went to a Governors' Meeting. He started bawling the minute I left and was still giving it some welly when I returned two hours later. Apparently he had cried non-stop. He was one. It depends on the child.

I was going to leave an open invitation to contradict me - thank you!

by Guest 03.06.16 21:05

I would find it unbearable to hear a child crying for such a long time and would feel compelled to do something. I think humans are hard-wired to respond to a child's distress.

Nobody is intending to be disrespectful to the late Mrs. Fenn. I generally agree with whodunit's post upthread.

by Columbo 03.06.16 21:09

Ladyinred wrote:I would find it unbearable to hear a child crying for such a long time and would feel compelled to do something. I think humans are hard-wired to respond to a child's distress.

Nobody is intending to be disrespectful to the late Mrs. Fenn. I generally agree with whodunit's post upthread.

We're not here to judge her actions, and she can no longer defend herself, but are we judging her actions over an exagerrated or fabricated incident?

by **HiDeHo** 03.06.16 21:12

Verdi wrote:I venture to suggest that a child most definitely would not cry hysterically for that length of time - a few whimpers - a full blown squawk - a grizzle - a few more whimpers.

I'm wondering if perhaps Mrs Fenn had a stop watch at hand.

I'm still at a loss to understand why she phoned a friend about the incident, rather than contacting the Ocean Club reception so they could in turn locate the parents - much like Warner's child care arrangements.

How do we know she didn't contact Ocean Club?

Why did Silvia Batiste offer only the McCanns free babysitting service? Was it because Mrs Fenn had reported it?

Was Mrs Fenn one of the 400+ (neighbours?) interviewed informally by the police immediately after the disappearance and what did she tell them?

We have no proof of the trip to Chaplins on Tuesday (after dinner?) but do we know for sure it didn't happen?

Why would the hairdresser claim this?

Re Ella...she wore runners not slippers that can be seen in the greyscale pics

by plebgate 03.06.16 21:21

Verdi wrote:
plebgate wrote:I doubt she had a stop watch, but probably a clock or two around the home.
I hear a dog barking in the vicinity, I'm going about my business and later realize it's still barking - I wonder why. Maybe it continues barking without my particular notice until later - is that dog still barking?

Ask me what time it started barking and what time it stopped, I haven't a clue.

I would have a clue verdi, but as we have been told before, we are all different.

Someone up thread did ask why would Mrs. Fenn lie to the police? An old lady who had never been in trouble in her life. I think most law abiding citizens would not be very happy lying about something like that. Would she bring her good friend into it if she knew that her friend would not have backed up her statement if questioned?

Although there are points which have been put forward which give pause for thought, it now seems that some are saying she was lying for sure and that is unfair imo.

by sandancer 03.06.16 21:26

My son when aged around three could throw a tantrum ( who said that about Madeleine ? ) That went on and on . I once had to walk home with him screaming in his pushchair doing the full going rigid bit as well , as no way was I going to try and get on a bus ! One hour later we reached home and he was still bawling ! Oh the joys of parenthood ! Every child is different maybe Mrs Fenn had heard children crying on previous occasions with other families , had mentioned/questioned the parents and been told to mind her own business etc making her reluctant to act on this occasion? Just a thought .

by Columbo 03.06.16 21:27

plebgate wrote:
Someone up thread did ask why would Mrs. Fenn lie to the police? An old lady who had never been in trouble in her life. I think most law abiding citizens would not be very happy lying about something like that. Would she bring her good friend into it if she knew that her friend would not have backed up her statement if questioned?

Although there are points which have been put forward which give pause for thought, it now seems that some are saying she was lying for sure and that is unfair imo.

What about something in between? I mean there was some crying at some point, but the timing and duration were adjusted to fit what was required?

by **HiDeHo** 03.06.16 21:30

This from 3As. If true then it seems crying was reported...

Article in Sol,Ms Batiste told gerry there were complaints of the children crying ,she also told him about a spate of robberies in the complex, he told her something like we know how to look after our own children thankyou...She even offered him a babysitter for free,he declined,all of this she will have given to PJ,

I will try and find the article in Sol (Ironside posted the comment)

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by plebgate 03.06.16 21:34

Columbo wrote:
plebgate wrote:
Someone up thread did ask why would Mrs. Fenn lie to the police? An old lady who had never been in trouble in her life. I think most law abiding citizens would not be very happy lying about something like that. Would she bring her good friend into it if she knew that her friend would not have backed up her statement if questioned?

Although there are points which have been put forward which give pause for thought, it now seems that some are saying she was lying for sure and that is unfair imo.
What about something in between? I mean there was some crying at some point, but the timing and duration were adjusted to fit what was required?

Nothing is impossible but why would she want to help Mr. & Mrs. Being a friend of Mrs. Murat as has been suggested doesn't work for me.

by Columbo 03.06.16 21:37

I don't know. Also, the only way the crying episode helps TM is something along the lines of "it makes us look bad, but it strengthens the abduction theory by suggesting we did leave the kids alone".

Just my tuppence worth.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 21:40

HiDeHo wrote:
Verdi wrote:I venture to suggest that a child most definitely would not cry hysterically for that length of time - a few whimpers - a full blown squawk - a grizzle - a few more whimpers.

I'm wondering if perhaps Mrs Fenn had a stop watch at hand.

I'm still at a loss to understand why she phoned a friend about the incident, rather than contacting the Ocean Club reception so they could in turn locate the parents - much like Warner's child care arrangements.
How do we know she didn't contact Ocean Club?

REPLY: Plainly, she does not say that she did so in her statement.

Why did Silvia Batista offer only the McCanns free babysitting service? Was it because Mrs Fenn had reported it?

REPLY: I am unsure when Siivia Baptista made this offer. I very much doubt it was 'because Mrs Fenn had reported it' and, as I've said, there is no evidence that she did.

Was Mrs Fenn one of the 400+ (neighbours?) interviewed informally by the police immediately after the disappearance...

REPLY: Without a doubt. The person living above the McCanns' apartment would have been one of the first to have been interviewed. I imagine that the stock questions would have been along the lines of: 'Did you see anything?' and 'Did you hear anything' - to which it may be assumed that Mrs Fenn probably answered 'No' and 'No' - otherwise we would probably see her statement in the PJ files.

and what did she tell them?

REPLY: See above.

We have no proof of the trip to Chaplins on Tuesday (after dinner?) but do we know for sure it didn't happen?

REPLY: The available evidence suggests that it did not happen. I concede that we cannot be absolutely certain that it didn't happen.

Why would the hairdresser claim this?

REPLY: If it was true, it is astonishing that not one person has come forward to corroborate the hairdresser's claim.

Re Ella...she wore runners not slippers that can be seen in the greyscale pics

I would like to add a note of thanks to 'whodunit' for articulating so clearly, for us all, exactly how I also feel about the balance of evidence concerning the statement of Mrs Pamela Fenn.

Let it be remembered that if I am accusing anyone on this matter, it is most certainly those who I suggest coerced this 81-year-old lady to make a false statement that served their purposes.

by plebgate 03.06.16 21:45

Again columbo anything is possible but why would she care whether it made them look bad or not.

Until someone can prove she did lie then posts which seem to ridicule her are not fair imo.

Posts which encourage debate and pose genuine questions I can understand but sarcastic comments are unnecessary imo.

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.