Who omn this forum can honestly claim to have the gift of distinguishing the cries of a 2-year-old from those of a 3-year-old?

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 21:58

Columbo wrote:...the only way the crying episode helps TM is something along the lines of "it makes us look bad, but it strengthens the abduction theory by suggesting we did leave the kids alone".

But, @ Columbo, can you see that it does more than that in one significant respect?

At that time, the McCanns had three children with them: the twins, aged 2 years and 2 months, and Madeleine, aged 3 years and 11 months.

Here is an extract from Mrs Fenn's statement, QUOTE:

"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger".

---

Now, does that phrase sound like a deliberate attempt to identify Madeleine as the child that she says was crying?

How many people, hand on heart, can honestly say: "Yes, just like Mrs Pamela Fenn, I too can distinguish the cries of a two-year-old child from those of a child older than two"?

I venture to suggest that there is not one CMOMM member nor guest visiting our forum tonight who could honestly claim to have the gift of distinguishing the cries of a 2-year-old from those of a 3-year-old.

If I am asked to explain why she used that cumbersome phrase: "a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger", I would suggest that this form of words was handed to her by those who arranged for her to visit Portimao Police Station on Monday 20 August, 2007.

And told her to mention a burglary attempt as well.

by Roxyroo 03.06.16 22:03

sandancer wrote:My son when aged around three could throw a tantrum ( who said that about Madeleine ? ) That went on and on . I once had to walk home with him screaming in his pushchair doing the full going rigid bit as well , as no way was I going to try and get on a bus ! One hour later we reached home and he was still bawling ! Oh the joys of parenthood ! Every child is different maybe Mrs Fenn had heard children crying on previous occasions with other families , had mentioned/questioned the parents and been told to mind her own business etc making her reluctant to act on this occasion? Just a thought .

My son did the same thing today, screamed all the way home, he actually gets more wound up if I try to comfort him at the beginning so I just have to ignore him, I do get some funny looks! But once he's had his wee paddy we have a hug. My daughter was the total opposite so it has come as quite a shock to the system! Must be the testosterone!

by plebgate 03.06.16 22:05

yes I thought why did she differentiate Tony, but maybe she was specifically asked whether she thought it was that of an older child?

by pennylane 03.06.16 22:18

Exactly, plebgate!

by **HiDeHo** 03.06.16 22:27

Confirmation that Silvia Batista offered them babysitting, We dont know WHY she offered it but it may have been because it was reported to them about the crying.

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by sandancer 03.06.16 22:34

Sadly I think we are all aware of those who prey upon and scam the elderly and vulnerable. "Your roof/path/wall needs fixing " ,"Your bank account has been hacked ,draw all your money out " etc Mrs Fenn was an elderly lady living alone , we don't know how "streetwise " fit healthy etc she was , was she visited by those who Mr Bennett suggested handed her the words to say ? If so how despicable and low . R.I.P Mrs Fenn you are well out of this mess.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 22:42

plebgate wrote:Yes I thought why did she differentiate Tony, but maybe she was specifically asked whether she thought it was that of an older child?

I think this is a very remote possibility @ plebgate.

Of course, by the time she was finally interviewed, 111 days after the event, the PJ would have long been aware that the McCanns had three children, two aged 2 years and 2 months, and one aged 3 years and 11 months.

So if you think Mrs Fenn might have been specifically asked if she thought it was one of the twins crying, or Madeleine, how might the question have been put?

Maybe: "Could you tell if it was one of the two-year-old twins or Madeleine, who was nearly four?"

Her statement says: "due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger".

I would still like to hear from anyone who says (after 111 days) that they can remember and distinguish between the sounds of a child crying who is under 3 and one who is 3 years or more.

Maybe we could run an experiment on the forum, play some sounds of children crying, and play 'guess the age of the child'.

I don't in the least mean to be flippant, I am trying to get at the absurdity of someone claiming there is a difference in tone between a child before his/her 3rd birthday and after his/her 3rd birthday.

The whole phrase seems contrived to me and very much as though someone wrote Mrs Fenn's script for her.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 22:49

HiDeHo wrote:Confirmation that Silvia Batista offered them babysitting, We dont know WHY she offered it but it may have been because it was reported to them about the crying...

Thank you @ HideHo for posting that account.

It seems plain to me from that, almost beyond any doubt, that Silvia Baptista's offer was one made as an immediate response to the devastating news that Madeleine was missing - and not in response to anything said by Mrs Fenn, who - so far as we know - said nothing about the alleged 'crying incident' until two days after the British press had comprehensively informed her of what she was going to say to the PJ

by Verdi 03.06.16 23:02

Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:I still can't get my head around why Pamela Fenn didn't give her witness statement until 20th August 2007 - information that could have been vital to the investigation... [SNIPPED]
It may help to work out WHO was the person who, some time just before Saturday 18 August 2007, planted all those stories in the British tabloid press about (a) the alleged crying incident and (b) the alleged burglary, you know, the one where Mrs Fenn was burgled and leapt up to grab the burglar's ankles just as he leapt out of her first floor window.

(Or not).

How did that person, whoever it was, know exactly what Mrs Fenn was going to say in her statement - which she didn't make until Monday 20 August?

This story required preparation.

I suggest that a group of people decided what should go into her statement, and then...

...Mrs Fenn was approached and told what to say - I think she agreed out of loyalty to her friend Mrs Jennifer Murat and her family. Maybe she did not know that it would all be made so public...

...and then a certain someone was despatched to go round the British mainstream press during the week Mon 13 to Fri 17 August to make sure there was a blizzard of stories about a dramatic crying incident and a vivid burglary in the press that weekend.

I have an idea as to the probably identity of that certain someone

------

If my suggestions are anywhere near to being correct, it is hardly surprising that Mrs Fenn later came out with:

"It's all rubbish. Ignore it".

On that occasion, I think she was telling the truth

I omitted to mention, not only did this surge of media coverage coincide with the Smiths' new found notoriety but also followed closely on the tail of the exemplary performance by Eddie and Keela as dogs on the case. That aside..

We've told the twins Madeleine is missing

18 Aug 2007 - Updated 07:16, 3 Feb 2012 - By Martin Fricker (?)

In a new development, a British expat has come forward with dramatic new evidence.

Pamela Fenn said a man broke into her flat above the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, on the Algarve, just weeks before Madeleine disappeared.

There was no sign of a break-in and it is thought the intruder may have had a key.

Mrs Fenn, who is in her 70s, found the man scrambling out of the window and tried to grab his ankle. But he escaped.

She reported the incident to Portuguese police but they did not question her again.

The information only resurfaced after British police reviewed the case two weeks ago. Mrs Fenn will now be formally interviewed for the first time on Monday.

Mrs Fenn's niece has said she spotted a suspicious man near the McCanns' apartment around the time Madeleine disappeared.

She said he matched the description of a suspect seen by one of the McCanns' friends.

Evidence taken from the McCanns' hire car is reportedly being analysed in the UK.

The couple only rented the car five weeks after Madeleine vanished. Police said they have "never, ever" been suspects.

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Justice at it's finest?

by Verdi 03.06.16 23:11

whodunit wrote:I probably shouldn't do this but I can't help myself.

Mrs. Fenn died an old woman after a good long life.

Madeleine McCann was a tiny child who had barely begun to live her life.

We are here trying to find some sort of truth and justice for this child.

For that reason, if an old woman was dishonest, for whatever reason, in her statements about events surrounding the death of this poor child--and it very much appears that she was--- then dead or not her statements deserve scrutiny and even censure. If it comes down to a choice between sentimentality over a deceased, elderly woman and truth for Madeleine I choose Madeleine.

[and frankly it beggars belief that a woman, elderly or not, would not call someone to come and check on a child who has been crying 'daddy daddy' for over an hour, becoming 'increasingly' distressed. who in their right mind wouldn't be thinking of dire scenarios, such as the parents may be lying dead in the apartment as the child wails her head off? I could never in a million years ignore a child's cries for that long. Heck, I couldn't ignore the wailing of a kitten for that long without checking on it myself]

I agree wholeheartedly - this is all about a little three year old child that disappeared off the face of the earth and has been let down by all who should be there for her.

Anything contained in the PJ files and otherwise connected to the case is open to scrutiny, no matter who or what - there is no room here for mawkish sentimentality.

by Nina 03.06.16 23:21

If you are referring to me there Verdi with the 'mawkish sentimentality' then you are very wrong. I am not mawkish in the slightest but hate to read that a dead person is being made out to be a liar when there is no proof imo that she was telling lies. Tony has met me and I hope, though we disagree on this issue, will vouch that I am far from a mawkish sentimentalist.
I was in a very similar situation many years ago to Mrs Fenn, hearing our next door neighbour in the bath with his 3-year-old daughter. I reported him to Social Services but nothing was done.He was a policeman.
We left the house as a result of the harassment that followed.

by Verdi 03.06.16 23:31

No Nina, I wasn't referring to you. roses

by **HiDeHo** 03.06.16 23:39

Tony Bennett wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:Confirmation that Silvia Batista offered them babysitting, We dont know WHY she offered it but it may have been because it was reported to them about the crying...
Thank you @ HideHo for posting that account.

It seems plain to me from that, almost beyond any doubt, that Silvia Baptista's offer was one made as an immediate response to the devastating news that Madeleine was missing - and not in response to anything said by Mrs Fenn, who - so far as we know - said nothing about the alleged 'crying incident' until two days after the British press had comprehensively informed her of what she was going to say to the PJ

I think we may disagree on that... It would seem to me it was pointed out BECAUSE Maddie went missing...not after the fact.. or am I missing something?

"The search for a new personality in the desperate search of the small British four-year-old is complicating even more the McCanns' situation.

The Technical Services Director of the Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, affirmed that the same night on which Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but they rejected that". Madeleine was seen for the last time on the 3rd of May when she was sleeping next to her siblings in a rented room in a hotel in Praia da Luz, in the south of Portugal. The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.

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The Technical Services Director of the Ocean Club resort, Silvia Batista, affirmed that the SAME NIGHT on which Madeleine disappeared, she iIN PERSON offered child-minding services "because the hotel is responsible for its clients' children, but THEY REJECTED that" Madeleine was seen forthe last time on the 3rd of May when she was sleeping next to her siblings in a rented room in a hotel in Praia da Luz, in the south of Portugal. The parents of the little girl are being questioned for having left her alone in that room in order to go to eat with some friends.

According to the director of the hotel, "every month registries of robberies in the area are kept, and we therefore advise the service of a child-minder", but EVEN KNOWING THIS, Maddie's parents DID NOT ACCEPT it. Batista confirmed in an interview with the website [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that the hotel has been working from the start with the Police to find the little girl. The director added that the room used by the McCann family was closed the first two months, then was opened for 15 days, but was then closed once again. Also, the director of the resort pointed out that in the area there are "many inquisitive people, but they do not disrupt the routine of the place.

"We did not bear the blame for the disappearance of the little girl, it couldn't be said whose fault it was, but certainly not ours", assured the director and indicated that "THE PARENTS OF THE GIRL THAT NIGHT WERE VERY UNCONCERNED", and there was no reason they should not have requested the service of a child-minder.

by Verdi 03.06.16 23:41

HiDeHo wrote:Confirmation that Silvia Batista offered them babysitting, We dont know WHY she offered it but it may have been because it was reported to them about the crying.

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Sorry HiDeHo but that's just got to be a load of old twaddle. Why offer the babysitting service on that particular occasion? I contest the claim that "the hotel is responsible for it's clients children" - that would only apply when children are in the care of the hotel staff in the absence of parents/guardians unless a child was injured as a result of the hotels negligence. Very unlikely in this case I think.

If this statement has any foundation at all, could it be interpreted as an admission that Madeleine was indeed in the care of Ocean Club child minders when she disappeared? A Freudian slip maybe?

by **HiDeHo** 03.06.16 23:46

To claim they did not accept it tells me that it was offered in good faith... likely because of something having being reported? and was turned down...rejected..

Some claim it was rejected at 6pm... but I havent found all the info yet..

by Verdi 03.06.16 23:51

Smacks of a PR exercise to me - no more that one would expect under the circumstances, Warner holidays who pride themselves on their child care facilities.

Perhaps it had something to do with Bell Pottinger.

by **HiDeHo** 03.06.16 23:58

As mentioned, I havent yet fully checked out the details...and trying to find the report in SOL. IRONSIDE was a very reputable member so I will try to find what she based this on...

Article in Sol
,Ms Batiste told gerry there were complaints of the children crying ,she also told him about a spate of robberies in the complex, he told her something like we know how to look after our own children thankyou...She even offered him a babysitter for free,he declined,all of this she will have given to PJ,

by worriedmum 04.06.16 0:03

Nina wrote:If you are referring to me there Verdi with the 'mawkish sentimentality' then you are very wrong. I am not mawkish in the slightest but hate to read that a dead person is being made out to be a liar when there is no proof imo that she was telling lies. Tony has met me and I hope, though we disagree on this issue, will vouch that I am far from a mawkish sentimentalist.
I was in a very similar situation many years ago to Mrs Fenn, hearing our next door neighbour in the bath with his 3-year-old daughter. I reported him to Social Services but nothing was done.He was a policeman.
We left the house as a result of the harassment that followed.

I agree with you about Mrs Fenn, Nina. I think very few people would actually intervene as you did, and the end results of your concern are shocking and disappointing. I agree that Mrs Fenn may have been asked by the interviewing officer which age group she thought the crying voice belonged to. There would be quite a difference between just two years old and a few days off four years old IMO; I have four children and I think they would sound different .

by Verdi 04.06.16 0:20

Quote: The Director of the Ocean Club's technical services, Silvia Batista, confirmed that on the same night that Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered them the babysitting service, because the hotel is responsible for it's guests but they rejected her offer.
----------

I'm frankly astounded that if the above be true, why she made no mention of it in her witness statement taken on 7th May 2007..

She is aware of the events that occurred in the Ocean Club resort, having had knowledge of the girl's disappearance, by 22H.30 on 03/05/2007, through
a telephone call from the administrator George Robin Crosland .

She immediately went to the Ocean Club resort where later arrived the GNR. A search started immediately throughout the village. Many residents and employees of OC participated.

On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools.

At about 13:00 she went to Lagos, with her husband, Mr. Joao Carlos Silva Batista and came back at about 14H30 .

At about18H00 she left the resort and only came back when the circumstances outlined above occurred.

During the day 03/05/2007 she did not detect anything unusual or different.

No strange situation was reported to her.

After the events and in conversation with other employees and heads of the Ocean Club, nothing was reported or commented concerning odd situations, such as the presence of strangers close to the resort.

She states that the Ocean Club Resort has no system of video surveillance.

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Nor is there any mention of the claim in her later witness statement of 26th July 2007

by Verdi 04.06.16 0:26

Addendum..

She's here as a witness. She is responsible for maintenance in the Ocean Club Resort located in Praia da Luz - Lagos. Because of her profession she knows many people of the English community, who live in Praia da Luz.

She knows the Murat (sic !) family, who has been there for about 30 years. In particular Mr. Murat and his wife Jenny. Mr. Murat was linked to building business and development of tourism enterprises, in Salema in her opinion. Mr. Murat died some years ago.

The Murat live in a house named "casa Liliana", near the Ocean Club.

Asked, she said not to remember whether the Murats have any child.

Asked, she said that on the night when Madeleine McCain (sic...) disappeared (03-05-2007), she was called by her boss, at about at 22:30. As she lives in Lagos she arrived shortly after at the resort. Close to the apartment A-5 of the OC there were already about 60 people to look for the girl.

She remembers, although she is not absolutely certain, given the time already elapsed, that an individual of about 1,70m, short light brown hair, with thin framed and light brown glasses, wanted from the start to help finding the child Madeleine McCann.

She doesn't remember at what time she saw him.

She doesn't remember how he was dressed up.

She doesn't remember who was with him, whether he came walking or in some vehicle. That same individual, she was told later, is the son of Morat, his first name is ROBERT.

Robert speaks fluently English and Portuguese. He helped the GNR of Lagos and later the PJ, translating the testimony of some British persons.

She admits as possible that Paul and June of the bar "Duke of Holland" and Mr. Byron of the firm JNB (management of properties in PDL) should be able to confirm if Robert Murat was there when Madeleine disappeared, and eventually other details.

?

by **HiDeHo** 04.06.16 0:54

Verdi wrote:Quote: The Director of the Ocean Club's technical services, Silvia Batista, confirmed that on the same night that Madeleine disappeared, she in person offered them the babysitting service, because the hotel is responsible for it's guests but they rejected her offer.
----------

I'm frankly astounded that if the above be true, why she made no mention of it in her witness statement taken on 7th May 2007..

She is aware of the events that occurred in the Ocean Club resort, having had knowledge of the girl's disappearance, by 22H.30 on 03/05/2007, through
a telephone call from the administrator George Robin Crosland .

She immediately went to the Ocean Club resort where later arrived the GNR. A search started immediately throughout the village. Many residents and employees of OC participated.

On the 03/05/2007 she started working by 09H30, having entered the Ocean Club through the area of the Club, having walked through the swimming pool area and later having checked the other swimming pools.

At about 13:00 she went to Lagos, with her husband, Mr. Joao Carlos Silva Batista and came back at about 14H30 .

At about18H00 she left the resort and only came back when the circumstances outlined above occurred.

During the day 03/05/2007 she did not detect anything unusual or different.

No strange situation was reported to her.

After the events and in conversation with other employees and heads of the Ocean Club, nothing was reported or commented concerning odd situations, such as the presence of strangers close to the resort.

She states that the Ocean Club Resort has no system of video surveillance.

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Nor is there any mention of the claim in her later witness statement of 26th July 2007

I agree with you regarding the formal statement but I have seen Goncalo discuss information not include in the formal statements... eg. He claims the cleaner said she cleaned the window but that is not in her statement.

Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth were two people that were with Madleine at mini sail (when Catriona claims she was nervous and crying (I think) but even though she was on his boat and the last day before she disappeared, they were only interviewed informally.

It's frustrating not knowing WHO was interviewed informally or who gave information to the police at times when they were not taken to Portimaio and the volume of information known to the police that never made it to the files.

SOOO much that we dont know...

Not necessarily off topic.... as apparently this was the reason Mrs Fenn was interviewed formally..

Staff from the Ocean Club complex, where Madeleine disappeared on May 3, will be also be re-interviewed today. A police source said: "We are re-interviewing several witnesses in order to clarify details that may be relevant to the new line of inquiry in light of facts we have found."

Pamela Fenn, 70, who lives in the apartment above where the McCanns were staying, and her niece, who is flying to Portugal from the UK, will be among those spoken to.

Off topic but has me very curious is about the friend that may have been charged around the time of Mrs Fenns statement... they had 48 hrs to charge him apparently but I can find nothing although the reports were very specific.. I believe they also stopped all holidays that week also.. Was Mrsa Fenns statement taken formally at this time because of the other issue?

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Search warrants have been issued and officers are preparing to make a major arrest as early as tomorrow, according to Portuguese newspaper Correio de Manha.

Detectives are understood to have been monitoring one suspect in the UK for several weeks.

---------------------------------

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Madeleine police 'to arrest new suspect in Britain'

By SAM GREENHILL
Last updated at 16:42 20 August 2007

A new potential suspect in the Madeleine McCann case is under surveillance in Britain, it has been claimed.

He or she could be arrested within days and deported to the Algarve in a joint operation between British and Portuguese police, according to local reports.

Detectives were put on full alert and all leave cancelled after several search warrants were issued which have 48 hours to run.

According to unconfirmed reports in the Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha, police in Britain are now watching someone in connection with the case.

The person was not named and it was unclear whether he or she is actually suspected of involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, or simply a witness whom detectives would like to re-question to iron out some inconsistency.

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Kate and Gerry McCann: considering finally returning home to Rothley in Leicestershire

Detectives leading the inquiry are said to have re-examined original statements and have a clearer picture of what happened on the night Madeleine vanished, a week before her fourth birthday.

This week, police officers in the Algarve have been banned from going on holiday should a major development occur in the Madeleine inquiry.

================================

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New suspect in Madeleine McCann case

By Richard Edwards in Praia da Luz
Published: 12:01AM BST 20 Aug 2007

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Kate McCann on her way to church in Praia da Luz

Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are following a new line of inquiry which could see them carry out a series of searches in the next 48 hours.

The developments mark the first departure from investigations centred on Robert Murat, the only formal suspect in the case, who has been ruled out and will be cleared of his "arguido" status within weeks.

Every detective in the Algarve is on standby today. Search warrants have been signed and police are awaiting final orders to start an operation believed to be linked to a new potential suspect.

The Policia Judiciaria, the Portuguese equivalent of CID, has been on alert since Friday. The details of the lead are a closely guarded secret and detectives have been warned that they are being monitored for any leaks.

The warrants are only vaild until the end of tomorrow, but could be extended if police believe it is worth pursuing.

The Public Prosecutor's Office, which directs the police inquiry, signed a series of documents on Friday, ordering the PJ in Faro to put detectives on standby and authorising search warrants at locations that may be linked to the disappearance of Madeleine 109 days ago.

Staff from the Ocean Club complex, where Madeleine disappeared on May 3, will be also be re-interviewed today. A police source said: "We are re-interviewing several witnesses in order to clarify details that may be relevant to the new line of inquiry in light of facts we have found."

Pamela Fenn, 70, who lives in the apartment above where the McCanns were staying, and her niece, who is flying to Portugal from the UK, will be among those spoken to.

by Verdi 04.06.16 1:29

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth were two people that were with Madleine at mini sail (when Catriona claims she was nervous and crying (I think) but even though she was on his boat and the last day before she disappeared, they were only interviewed informally.

The sailing trip according to Catriona Baker took place on the morning of Thursday 3rd May. As the alarm went off at 10:00 pm that night, I'm not really surprised that the beach staff were not formally interviewed - by all intents and purposes Madeleine didn't disappear during the day so their input was not relevant any more than the creche staff - enter Catriona Baker!

As you repeatedly say, it's important to stick to the PJ files as far as possible, any straying from which should at least be evidence based. Assumptions about what might or might not have happened that's doesn't feature in the PJ files and lacks evidence is but conjecture.

by Maria 04.06.16 2:40

In trying to have an opinion on Mrs Fenn i can't find more than one statement, and in that she mentions nothing about ankle grabbing burglars..
I think Mrs Fenn was telling the truth, unless she made more than one statement and if so could someone point me in that direction so I can read it please, thank you

by Maria 04.06.16 3:03

jeanmonroe wrote:
whodunit wrote:Is there a police report of the alleged attempted burglary during which Mrs. Fenn grabbed the alleged burglers' ankles?

Dunno.

But there is an alleged story that the McCan'ts were 'seen and heard'............'clutching/grabbing at straws'!

by Maria 04.06.16 3:07

BarryTheHatchet wrote:

For me the answer is clearly 'no', which calls into question everything else she said.
But according to all of those reports above, she didn't actually say anything at all. The MSM did, though, and we all know how truthful they are. No wonder the poor woman didn't want to get involved.

Sure looks like it was all msm garbage

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Who omn this forum can honestly claim to have the gift of distinguishing the cries of a 2-year-old from those of a 3-year-old?

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

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Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

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Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

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