CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March

A very interesting article, RD. Thank you.

I believe the PJ are going to carry on to the bitter end, having read this. There is a war of words going on, evidenced by this response. So, this is Tractor Man is it? Good and dead - always useful. Wonder what his widow thinks? But she went quiet come to think of it. Not so angry now the dust has settled, maybe. GA's interview and the sudden CW update hard on the heels of his revelations is significant too, IMO. It seems the political wheel has taken a turn and the Portuguese are no longer jumping to the British tune. And no wonder, after the xenophobic attacks they have suffered over the years.

GA says the original forensic results are on file. The hair of MM lies alongside those files. Hair without roots but now, thanks to the advancement in DNA testing, no roots needed. The advances in DNA forensics since 2007 are astonishing. A very old case was, just this week, was solved due to this.

Presumably, SY's idea is that the suspect went into 5A with the intention of carrying out a similar assault to previous ones, but then something went wrong and so, to avoid dna evidence, MM's body was then taken from the apartment? Yet all of this would have taken time, more time than there was available to any abductor between checks.

The other alternative, would be that Binman changed his MO and decided to remove MM from the apartment, prior to an assault, yet if this had happened it must have been getting on for 10 pm, and after 10 pm there were so many people searching around the resort that any abductor would have just abandoned her and fled. Unless of course he lived (or was staying) in the immediate vicinity of the Ocean Club, in that case of someone staying in PdL, how would it be possible to conceal a body under the eyes of all the police and searchers? 

The only other alternative to the McCanns involvement would be someone who lives in PdL imo, according to SY someone who regularly drives 30 miles in the middle of the night to assault other young British tourists.

From twitter;

Sorry to bring this up again but did no one else see the BBC news following CW? CM was on as the Mc spokesperson saying how grateful they were etc.

notlongnow wrote:From twitter;

I don't think this is right. Monteiro was black. That's not the man Redwood is describing.

I think it suits both police forces to be seen as rivals who are not co-operating.

If SY are investigating the fund, then they simply need to prove that the McCanns knew Madeleine died before the fund was set up.

Smellyman, Smithman, Tannerman, Burglars etc.etc. have no relevance to the fund investigation.

Perhaps SY are acting as a stalking horse on behalf of the PJ.

For example: Let's presume that Tannerman does not exist except in JT's fevered imagination. If Madeleine's case came to court in the UK, I would expect the defence to demand that SY produce their Tannerman to give evidence but in Portugal they would not be able to compel Tannerman to appear. However, an appropriately worded affidavit from SY could confirm that Tannerman had been identified, investigated and eliminated during the course of their investigation.

Despite all the voices to the contrary, I still can't see this as a whitewash. If it is, I shall be so disappointed. Not because of the whitewash itself but because of the sheer incompetence of the whitewashers who it appears can't be trusted with a pot of fingerpaint let alone a can of emulsion.

notlongnow wrote:From twitter;

I must say that I don't trust this source at all. The alleged 'attacks' are claimed to have taken place 2004 - 2010. Monteiro died in 2009.

jeanmonroe wrote:In this case the theory of those who believe this latest suspect is responsible for Maddie's disappearance and who integrate Redwood's belief that Maddie might not have left 5a alive is that the abductor

assaulted then killed Maddie, before removing her body and dumping it.
-----------------------------------------------------

Just like he did with all the other 'assaults' on the white British kids, on the previous 12 'break ins'  he was involved in?

Er, NOT!

No 'other' child 'assaulted' 'killed' 'removed' or 'dumped' by Stinky Fella!

   According to Redwood, the 4 who were assaulted were aged 7-10 years.

   Totally different MO.

   One lucky man. Not harmed by a parent. I don't believe the child waited until next morning to talk. Some children described a strange odour..so alert as well as awake. Was he calm after being confronted by the parents? Surely they were not calm!

  Children were alert enough to instantly wake a parent who would have gone out searching, as some did...those who went outside heard a bin-wagon.

  According to Redwood, on most of the occasions the man did not assault the child, but sat or lay on the bed.
 The only people who gave this info were the children, surely, who must have been awake and would have been terrified.

 The media would have us believe that these incidents were ignored by Portuguese police, the innuendo is that it would be bad for tourism imo.

Clay Regazzoni wrote:

notlongnow wrote:From twitter;

I don't think this is right. Monteiro was black. That's not the man Redwood is describing.

But didn't he say the face hadn't been seen, or did I dream that?
Stinky Eggman?

canada12 wrote:

\"Cristobell wrote:


Thank you Canada!     I seem to be the only one jumping for joy and drinking champagne (I wish, lol).

The pros are already spinning stories to support the Mccanns' innocence, even if Madeleine had died in the apartment. They are panicking.

And yes, agree entirely, will the McCanns now sue DCI Redwood for saying the same thing as Goncalo Amaral?  The mere suggestion of death in the apartment kills the abduction theory stone dead.  It is game over.  

I remember a time when the McCanns would have been all over the papers decrying anyone who dared suggest that Madeleine was dead. Instead we have Clarence on tv focusing on the new lead. And the McCanns thanking SY for their thoroughness.

How times have changed.

I'm also joining you for that glass of champagne. To allude to the fact that M might not have left the apartment alive is absolutely massively significant.
It would not surprise me either if the supposed 'war' between SY and PJ is fabricated for a reason. Designed to encourage some reaction from the main players.

Poe wrote:
'Despite all the voices to the contrary, I still can't see this as a whitewash. If it is, I shall be so disappointed. Not because of the whitewash itself but because of the sheer incompetence of the whitewashers who it appears can't be trusted with a pot of fingerpaint let alone a can of emulsion.'
-----------------------------

Emulsion's for whitewash. Fingerpaints are for e-fits.   

russiandoll wrote:
 The media would have us believe that these incidents were ignored by Portuguese police, the innuendo is that it would be bad for tourism imo.

I've heard of something like this happening before.

Is this the first time that Scotland Yard have indicated that some of their persons of interest are British?

Tony Bennett wrote:

russiandoll wrote:I have read and heard the media trashing the Portuguese police, but I have not heard UK police do so...

Maybe not so directly, but more subtly.

The Portuguese Police would not IMO be trashed so routinely in the British press unless the British police gave them tacit support.

As in this, recently, from Britain's top copper (in rank, but certainly not in integrity), Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe:

++++++++
 
Sir Bernard, 56, replied: “That’s right.’’ Asked if detectives had “spoken to those people” the Met chief said...that the investigation was being hampered because Portuguese police were pursuing a different line of inquiry. He repeated his call for both forces to unite for the sake of Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry, both 45. The police chief said: “In the middle of all this quite often their torment gets lost".


What he was saying, make no mistake, is that the pig-headed Portuguese, in refusing his force's calls to 'pursue the same line of enquiry' and 'unite', had lost sight of the 'torment' of Kate & Gerry.

We are right. We haven't lost sight of Gerry and Kate's 'torment'.

They are wrong.

Indeed Mr Bennett you are spot on, but I would go further the British Police have been scathing in their comments of Portuguese Police.   

Also and slightly off topic in respect of British/Portuguese Police.  Why would the British Police, only yesterday say that they are trying to identify this latest man, if he is in fact Tractorman?  If he is Tractorman, then the British already knew his "whereabouts."

Trust the British Police in this investigation? -  I agree with you Sir - not on your nellie!

Clay R  : it  is also incorrect because the attacks by the same man [ acc to AR] continued until 2010, a year after Monteiro's death ... the reason why I believe another media marvel should be kept for posterity.


eta a thank you to the person who kindly enlarged the text, I did not manage it after multiple attempts!
 

forgot to mention, the first breaking news on the Sky ticker yesterday was re a RESORT WORKER. It soon changed.

canada12 wrote:Let us remember that if this case ever makes it to court, the defense has an obligation to raise doubt in the minds of the jury (or judge, if just a judge trying the case). So a competent defense lawyer would immediately start to show all of the possibilities of what could have happened to Madeleine, thus creating the element of doubt, so that a jury or judge might not be able to state with 100% certainty, that they believed Madeleine could have died and her body concealed by the parents.

By tracking down all of these seemingly nonsensical tangents and investigating them, SY and PJ are doing some excellent pre-emptive work. If the defense tries to raise the subject of small English girls being sexually assaulted in their beds in Portugal, the prosecution can produce all of the investigative material and state unequivocally that the possibility was looked into, and all of the possible suspects were eliminated.

I see this as legs being kicked out from underneath the McCann's possible defense, not a useless exercise at all.

   this gives me hope  

Poe wrote:Is this the first time that Scotland Yard have indicated that some of their persons of interest are British?

I think he said spoke English with a foreign accent.

HelenMeg wrote:

canada12 wrote:

\"Cristobell wrote:


Thank you Canada!     I seem to be the only one jumping for joy and drinking champagne (I wish, lol).

The pros are already spinning stories to support the Mccanns' innocence, even if Madeleine had died in the apartment. They are panicking.

And yes, agree entirely, will the McCanns now sue DCI Redwood for saying the same thing as Goncalo Amaral?  The mere suggestion of death in the apartment kills the abduction theory stone dead.  It is game over.  

I remember a time when the McCanns would have been all over the papers decrying anyone who dared suggest that Madeleine was dead. Instead we have Clarence on tv focusing on the new lead. And the McCanns thanking SY for their thoroughness.

How times have changed.

I'm also joining you for that glass of champagne. To allude to the fact that M might not have left the apartment alive is absolutely massively significant.
It would not surprise me either if the supposed 'war' between SY and PJ is fabricated for a reason. Designed to encourage some reaction from the main players.

Cheers Helen   

Its HUGE I agree, and it can't be unsaid.  Even Agatha Christie would struggle to come up with a scenario where the child died without the parents knowledge.  Its impossible.  The only way it could have occurred, the McCanns would have to confess to going out for the entire evening and lying about the checks. The friends must have been lying too, because Matt claims to have gone into the apartment whilst this murder/springclean was going on.

WLBTS   "  I must say that I don't trust this source at all. The alleged 'attacks' are claimed to have taken place 2004 - 2010. Monteiro died in 2009. "

In addition, part of that article might be a libel. Have you read anywhere else that it was stated as a fact that Monteiro had entered children's rooms and got onto the beds?



 

russiandoll wrote:WLBTS   "  I must say that I don't trust this source at all. The alleged 'attacks' are claimed to have taken place 2004 - 2010. Monteiro died in 2009. "

In addition, part of that article might be a libel. Have you read anywhere else that it was stated as a fact that Monteiro had entered children's rooms and got onto the beds?

No, never. When he was the "main suspect" a short while ago, you would think something like that would be splashed all over the front pages.

I wish I could be as optimistic as some on this thread but it is getting more and more difficult.

For the CW appeal to expressly say please phone us and report what has happened to you, even if you have reported it to the Portuguese police, do not assume we know about it, says to me that SY are suggesting non co-operation between the two forces. It has been seven years since MM went missing and the in the past year we have had DCI Redwood ask the public to help us identify a man who was carrying a child and could be identified by two e-fits which looked like two different people, a whole heap of strange foreign types that may have been charity collecting in the area and now a smelly man associated with bins who likes to creep into peoples apartments with young white British children. It all seems a bit like they want to show all the hard work they are putting in to justify the millions spent on the investigation. If it is also true that the PJ re-opened their investigation based on this "lead" then that is a hammer blow to justice being done.

If on the other hand SY are just investigating all avenues in order to build a case then it suggests their case is fairly weak and circumstantial, otherwise their would be no need to investigate wild goose chases. If they are simply pre-empting possible lines of defence then I take my hat off to them for being so thorough but I do have my doubts. The only thing that gives me slight hope that the investigation may be heading in the right direction is the fact that DCI Redwood now seems to be acknowledging the fact that MM may have died in the apartment.

I just wish the media would ask some questions of SY, like

Why has your thinking changed from MM was abducted to she may have dies in 5A? Is it based solely on the evidence of Cadaver dogs or is it on new or additional evidence?
You have said previously that you were given the name of the man carrying a child shown on the last CW special, has this man been spoken to and is he still a person of interest or has he been eliminated from your enquiries?
Reports suggested that you wanted to speak to burglars in the area based on phone records, have these people been spoken to and if so, are they still persons of interest or are they now eliminated from your enquiries?
It has been suggested previously that phone records showing high levels of activity on the night in question may give you new leads, are these in any way related to this new person of interest?
The chief of the met, BHH, has said publicly that SY have names of suspects involved in the disappearance of MM. Have these people been arrested and if not, why not?
If their is a chance that MM is still alive, do you think it wise to publicise that you have the names of suspects?
Have recent stories in the media about the operation and its progress come from SY or do you distance yourself from these reports?
Does SY disagree with the evidence gathered by the original PJ investigation?
Does SY disagree with the conclusions reached by the original PJ investigation?
By stating that MM may have died in 5A, does DCI redwood believe he is harming the search for MM or is he simply reporting the facts based on the evidence SY have?
Since operation grange begun, what role has the Find Madeleine campaign had in the investigation?
Since SY have stated that MM may be dead, do you think the public should continue donating to the fund?
Do SY concur with the fund website stating that people should still look for the man allegedly seen by Jane Tanner, despite that man having been identified by SY?

Even if Redwood or another one of his cronies simply answered "no comment" to each of the questions, it would be worth it to hear them asked.

suzyjohnson wrote:Presumably, SY's idea is that the suspect went into 5A with the intention of carrying out a similar assault to previous ones, but then something went wrong and so, to avoid dna evidence, MM's body was then taken from the apartment? Yet all of this would have taken time, more time than there was available to any abductor between checks.

The other alternative, would be that Binman changed his MO and decided to remove MM from the apartment, prior to an assault, yet if this had happened it must have been getting on for 10 pm, and after 10 pm there were so many people searching around the resort that any abductor would have just abandoned her and fled. Unless of course he lived (or was staying) in the immediate vicinity of the Ocean Club, in that case of someone staying in PdL, how would it be possible to conceal a body under the eyes of all the police and searchers? 

The only other alternative to the McCanns involvement would be someone who lives in PdL imo, according to SY someone who regularly drives 30 miles in the middle of the night to assault other young British tourists.

It is another red herring Suzy.  If this were a serious appeal for a weirdo going into holiday apartments assaulting young British girls, there would be an efit of sorts rather than a vague description of a smelly man.  Also bear in mind that smelly man is the polemic opposite of Smithman, who had neatly cropped hair, was clean shaven and probably smelled of shower gel.  

Crimewatch One Revelation - freshly laundered Smithman

Crimewatch Two Revelation - Pot bellied smelly man

Far from being a quiet, sleepy resort, it was obviously buzzing with strange men carrying small girls in pyjamas, and yet more climbing through the windows of holiday apartments.  

So far on that night we have:

Crecheman
Smithman
Tannerman (still on OFM)
Tractorman
Gangs of burglars phoning each other but not bothering with any loot
A team of 6 British cleaners in a white van
Soothing couple - innocent, they just go into holiday apartments to comfort crying children
Pot bellied Smelly Man

Please feel free to add any I may have missed out.

reminder of Redwood's words quoted in the Guardian :

 He did not say   " Sadly we believe that Madeleine might not be alive "

 He did say that he believe that Madeleine might not have LEFT THE APARTMENT ALIVE"


 A rather BIG difference.

russiandoll wrote:reminder of Redwood's words quoted in the Guardian :

 He did not say   " Sadly we believe that Madeleine might not be alive "

 He did say that he believe that Madeleine might not have LEFT THE APARTMENT ALIVE"


 A rather BIG difference.

Yes, a world of difference there - Redwood's statement restricts Madeleine's death to when she was in the care of her parents.

I've seen it written here quite a few times that SY are ignoring the findings of the cadaver + blood dogs. Now I'm almost certain that they are not ignoring them at all.

watendlath wrote:

Cherry wrote:Have to say I really do not feel it was an Arsenal supporter that did it   more likely Chelsea supporter with Gunners shirt on to discredit Arsenal,   I believe the pros have quite a few Chelsea supporters among them, probably one of them who did it!     

That's unfair on Chelsea supporters.

I'd say this has all the hallmarks of a wee Celtic supporter.

gerry,s favourite english team is arsenal.he has previous.maybe he was out on one of his many golf trips.must call the yard right now.