Re: CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March

by Guest 20.03.14 9:46

CynicAl wrote:
Who unearthed Stinkyman? PJ? Amaral? Edgar? If the latter, I would want to know if he actually raised evidence of factual events, or found a half dozen curiously English-only people to give him testimony? Was Edgar running an investigation? Or an interference operation? How could I find out? By seeking victims beyond the profiled control group. By blowing it open to four countries of tourists in that region. By ringing bells. By taking it beyond the control of the one who staged the information. I'd be unravelling my opponents intricately crafted 'exhaustive' investigation, until all I was left with were the suspects that their investigators refused to consider... Themselves.

Good post CynicAl. The peculiar penchant for English girls only is just that - peculiar.

I am now off to reread what is known about Edgar.

by Mirage 20.03.14 9:48

Hi CynicAl

If AR is engaged in the elimination process, as you describe, I repeat, why the need to trash the reputation of the Portuguese police? Do you think the PJ agreed to being portrayed in this way on the international stage so that SY could win the plaudits in a protracted psycho-drama designed to break two sociopaths?

In addition, I noticed the re-emergence of CM as the McCann spokesman on the BBC news straight after CW. Did anyone clock that? Now that's what I call a significant development.

by Cristobell 20.03.14 9:50

Mirage wrote:
Portia wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
AndyB wrote:
dantezebu wrote:From the guardian:
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

Thsi is the only significant news IMO.
It seems Redwood is taking the dog indications into account.

Thank you for pointing this out dantezebu. In my anger I had failed to digest the Guardian article properly when I first read it. Obviously I hope you're right and they're moving away from the ridiculous abduction theory. Unfortunately the cynic in me thinks that, even if you are right, its a precursor to setting up mysteron/target man as the one that caused Madeleine's death

Andy I don't think you did miss this. From what I can see on http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
there were TWO guardian articles:

The first one from the press association at 11.43
with the quote:
"While I completely accept that there are differences (between the break-ins and the McCann case), there is no abduction that we can see, but the assumption from that is that Madeleine McCann has been abducted. That may not necessarily follow with all our thinking about what may have become of Madeleine McCann."

ie in reference to the abduction

And the second one by James Meikle at 11.43
with the quote:
"Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. "These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We also need to eliminate this man from our inquiries and ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance," he said."

this one in reference to her being alive.

Dantzebu, that's perceptive of you;

in fact AR says:

1. we're not convinced it is an abduction;
2. we're not convinced the child is still alive

That will do for the time being, while SY debunks the rest of the myths
If this is the case why the need to keep criticising the Portuguese police? That makes sense to me on one level only.

That niggles me too Mirage, but I think Operation Grange have several lines of enquiry. I also think that the McCanns are taking part in the investigation and putting forward suggestions supported by the strong arm of their heavy mob legal team. Remember the McCanns have been putting forward their own leads since the night of Madeleine's disappearance, to such an extent that they scuppered the original investigation. Imo, they are doing exactly the same thing now.

The enquiries of the McCanns are probably irritating the hell out of PJ - they have been down this road before, but I think it suits the purposes of SY and the PJ to give the impression that they are not working together.

by Nina 20.03.14 9:56

aiyoyo wrote:
Mirage wrote:I think old Andy was sending out a subliminal message - he wants this case binned.

Kate looks into the bin the next morning but the bin man was already gone and now Redwood is hoping to catch up with a bin man whose collection route is wide and spread out far covering geographical location of probably 50-100miles radius of PDL. Priceless!

Has Redwood not thought of checking with Town councils for employees list?
A bin man regularly wearing his trade-mark jersey - not difficult to single out is it? Many co-workers would know which man Police is talking about.

Probably not important, but will mention it anyway, refuse collectors do not wear mufty, they wear reflective protective clothing, so this chap wasn't offending during work time nah

by jeanmonroe 20.03.14 9:56

"they are in fact preparing for the sh*t to hit the fan, which it will when the newspaper editors wake up and smell the coffee."
-------------------------------------------------

Would that be the sh*t smell that Stinky Fella reeked of?

Will all the newspaper editors be sending their top 'sniffer' sleuths to PDL to 'sniff' out Stinky Fella rather than coffee?

On a SERIOUS note:

How many short haired, pot bellied, tanned, foreign speaking, sufferers of BO, will face being 'assaulted' in Portugal this summer?

For being 'the Stinky Fella perv' that 'assaults' white British children.

And will DCI Redwood 'condone or congratulate' the possible 'attackers' of all Stinky Fellas in Portugal?

Remember those child 'snatch' attempts by people who THOUGHT 'it was Madeleine' and NOT a single word from the McCanns for people NOT to try to 'snatch' innocent kids, from innocent parents!

I DO!

by russiandoll 20.03.14 9:57

I have read and heard the media trashing the Portuguese police, but I have not heard UK police do so. Where did this happen, please , as I have clearly missed something yesterday.

Don't like to be gruesome, but is it not the case that abductor MO in cases of sexual assault/ murder is to abduct...assault....murder....dump the body?

In this case the theory of those who believe this latest suspect is responsible for Maddie's disappearance and who integrate Redwood's belief that Maddie might not have left 5a alive is that the abductor

assaulted then killed Maddie, before removing her body and dumping it.

Please do not tell me that these people believe that a man working the bins as part of a team, wearing suitable clothing rather than a shirt or bare chested, left work for a break when he committed these crimes. in Maddie's case killing her, then carrying her body to the bin lorry to conceal it, where he would have been witnessed by his colleagues? Or that he extended his break by carrying a body , dumping it and then returning to work?
It is preposterous.

btw no abduction word from Redwood or Kirsty Young on CW.

by Cristobell 20.03.14 9:59

Mirage wrote:Hi CynicAl

If AR is engaged in the elimination process, as you describe, I repeat, why the need to trash the reputation of the Portuguese police? Do you think the PJ agreed to being portrayed in this way on the international stage so that SY could win the plaudits in a protracted psycho-drama designed to break two sociopaths?

In addition, I noticed the re-emergence of CM as the McCann spokesman on the BBC news straight after CW. Did anyone clock that? Now that's what I call a significant development.

Clarence reappearing is no surprise at all Mirage. He too is up to his neck in it and it was imperative that the media focused on smelly man and not death in the apartment. He steers the news, thats his job and they desperately needed his skills yesterday. Clarence has no option, he is in the thick of it.

There is probably rivalry between the two forces Mirage, its human nature. They are both investigating the same crime and both will have to present their findings to the world.

I think Goncalo Amaral threw down the gauntlet with his television interview and DCI Redwood responded with 'Madeleine may not have been alive when she left the apartment'. I think he went off script during his press conference, he didn't say it during the CW program which may have been recorded before his statement to the press, and only the Guardian picked up on it.

Interesting times ahead methinks.

by Tangled Web 20.03.14 10:03

My goodness, it's taken me a long time to read this (very amusing) thread big grin

In all seriousness though, 'something' is happening...again. GA's interview followed, almost immediately, by AR's interview. Yes, the two police forces could be at war with each other, or they could be playing the McCann's. Who knows?

It's encouraging that it appears AR managed to slip in (amongst all the codswollop) a couple of ~~unhelpful~~ useful nuggets of information, mainly that MM case was similar to these other (imaginary IMO) cases in that there was no sign of forced entry, that's quite a biggie. No mention of jemmied shutters here smilie

and the possibility that she may not have been alive when taken from the apartment (bless her), presumably taking into account the dogs alerts.

I think that the mentioning of between '2 a.m. and 5 a.m. and 'bins' is significant. Weren't KM and GM spotted around this time the following morning 'resuming their search'?

We are now looking to eliminate 'smelly-foreign-but-speaks-english-slurred-binman' - should be easy enough titter

by **Tony Bennett** 20.03.14 10:06

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Good post CynicAl. The peculiar penchant for English girls only is just that - peculiar.

I am now off to reread what is known about Edgar.

He lives in Victoria Avenue, Crewe.

Just down the road from Brian Kennedy's mansion, Swettenham Hall, near Congleton.

And a handy few miles from the H.Q. of the McCanns' private investibations, a house in Knutsford, Cheshire, bought by Kennedy for that very purpose in 2007.

Or he did live there in 2011, anyway.

By the way, I think the most comprehensive article on Edgar can be found on a sticky on this forum, here:
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2406-dave-edgar-and-the-hunt-for-maddie

The link given in the OP still works. It's an article by John Whitehouse.

The 'ALPHAIG Deception' is also explained in that article - the shell company formed to help deceive the public into thinking that Edgar and Arthur Cowley were part of a well-established detective agency, the so-called 'Alpha Investigations Group'.

by Guest 20.03.14 10:07

Just saving these for posterity........

CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March - Page 15 Daily-star-1-329x437

CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March - Page 15 Daily-mirror-1-1-329x437

by russiandoll 20.03.14 10:11

save this for posterity, too, from Portugal [ can't enlarge the text, sorry, can admin please do so ? ]

noticiasaominuto.com/pais/191195/novo-suspeito-da-policia-britanica-ja-foi-investigado-pela-pj-e-esta-morto … Translation in pic below #McCann

CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March - Page 15 BjKSizMCYAAA6rZ

CRIMEWATCH Update on MadeleineMcCann case tonight 19th March - Page 15 BjKSizMCYAAA6rZ

Imo this new man from SY given to the media to keep others busy with speculation while they continue investigating facts.

Lots of calls, texts and e mails acc to CW , just like last time.

by Cristobell 20.03.14 10:13

canada12 wrote:
Cristobell wrote:

Redwood is not saying smelly man is the abductor Whmon, in fact I got the impression that he was ticking boxes.

Kate brought up the night prowler in her book Whmom, but there was nothing tangible to support it. If they McCanns were tried, their defence could claim that the police refused to follow up this obvious lead.

DCI Redwood said Madeleine may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment. That was the significant news yesterday.

Agree 100% with you!

And if DCI Redwood is now saying that Madeleine may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment, doesn't this shine a different light on the libel trial in Portugal? Which is all about going after Amaral for publishing details which suggested that Madeleine was dead, and therefore this stopped people from searching for her? Isn't this exactly what DCI Redwood is now suggesting is the case?

And having tiptoed into the territory of Madeleine being possibly dead... if they can prove she was dead, and can prove that the parents knew she was dead, then that also takes care of the alleged fraud involving The Fund.

Thank you Canada! smilie

I seem to be the only one jumping for joy and drinking champagne (I wish, lol).

The pros are already spinning stories to support the Mccanns' innocence, even if Madeleine had died in the apartment. They are panicking.

And yes, agree entirely, will the McCanns now sue DCI Redwood for saying the same thing as Goncalo Amaral? The mere suggestion of death in the apartment kills the abduction theory stone dead. It is game over.

by Mirage 20.03.14 10:15

Cristobell wrote:
Mirage wrote:
Portia wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
AndyB wrote:
dantezebu wrote:From the guardian:
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

Thsi is the only significant news IMO.
It seems Redwood is taking the dog indications into account.

Thank you for pointing this out dantezebu. In my anger I had failed to digest the Guardian article properly when I first read it. Obviously I hope you're right and they're moving away from the ridiculous abduction theory. Unfortunately the cynic in me thinks that, even if you are right, its a precursor to setting up mysteron/target man as the one that caused Madeleine's death

Andy I don't think you did miss this. From what I can see on http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
there were TWO guardian articles:

The first one from the press association at 11.43
with the quote:
"While I completely accept that there are differences (between the break-ins and the McCann case), there is no abduction that we can see, but the assumption from that is that Madeleine McCann has been abducted. That may not necessarily follow with all our thinking about what may have become of Madeleine McCann."

ie in reference to the abduction

And the second one by James Meikle at 11.43
with the quote:
"Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. "These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We also need to eliminate this man from our inquiries and ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance," he said."

this one in reference to her being alive.

Dantzebu, that's perceptive of you;

in fact AR says:

1. we're not convinced it is an abduction;
2. we're not convinced the child is still alive

That will do for the time being, while SY debunks the rest of the myths
If this is the case why the need to keep criticising the Portuguese police? That makes sense to me on one level only.

That niggles me too Mirage, but I think Operation Grange has several lines of enquiry. I also think that the McCanns are taking part in the investigation and putting forward suggestions supported by the strong arm of their heavy mob legal team. Remember the McCanns have been putting forward their own leads since the night of Madeleine's disappearance, to such an extent that they scuppered the original investigation. Imo, they are doing exactly the same thing now.

The enquiries of the McCanns are probably irritating the hell out of PJ - they have been down this road before, but I think it suits the purposes of SY and the PJ to give the impression that they are not working together.

I admire your stalwart faith in SY, Cristobel. I mean that. I sincerely hope they are deserving of your (and other good people's ) confidence. I'm afraid I doubt it.

I cannot dismiss as a 'niggle', the wholesale trashing of the PJ that has been the hallmark of the case from the start and amplified by the BBC reporter standing under the SY sign. It is as plain as a pikestaff (to me anyway) that SY are ramping up these slurs in concert with what they are now revealing, knowing the MSM have built a receptive audience for this type of rhetoric. This is pretty desperate stuff and shows (me anyway) that any co-operation that existed between the two police was (IMO) founded on getting a foot in the door to see the rest of the PJ files. That, I believe, was the reason for the suited and booted photo shoot. A power display. That they were sent off with a flea in their ear (I suspect) gave rise to unfavourable commentary in the CdM, a letter of intent from the CMTV Editor (to get to the bottom of this case) being read out live on air, and Portugal's answer to CW featuring a realistic recon based on the testimonies of the T9 broadcast. Not to mention GA's interview this week.

That said, we are not looking at a simple dichotomy IMO. I believe it is more complex than that and that GA's call for political courage applies as much to the present PJ investigators as SY. If not more, as he states he regrets nothing, except leaving his job. Political expediencies are the barriers to MM receiving justice.

To imagine, a hair of that child's head shall decide the last gasps of this case. It is almost biblical.

ETA In catching up on the above article posted by RD, the PJ are heeding Goncalo. He will be their national hero, I'm certain.

by jeanmonroe 20.03.14 10:17

I think that the mentioning of between '2 a.m. and 5 a.m. and 'bins' is significant. Weren't KM and GM spotted around this time the following morning 'resuming their search'?
--------------------------------------------------------

Well Kate certainly tells us, although NOBODY 'saw' them, that she and hubby were out 'at first light', because she didn't 'search' for her first born daughter, personally, because 'it was dark', she was 'sniffing' around a garbage bin, lifting its lid, etc.

Was she "checking" that the bin HAD been emptied, thereby 'disposing' of 'something' that MIGHT have been 'placed' in a bin, the previous evening?

by Tangled Web 20.03.14 10:20

jeanmonroe wrote:I think that the mentioning of between '2 a.m. and 5 a.m. and 'bins' is significant. Weren't KM and GM spotted around this time the following morning 'resuming their search'?
--------------------------------------------------------

Well Kate certainly tells us, although NOBODY 'saw' them, that she and hubby were out 'at first light', because she didn't 'search' for her first born daughter, personally, because 'it was dark', she was 'sniffing' around a garbage bin, lifting its lid, etc.

Was she "checking" that the bin HAD been emptied, thereby 'disposing' of 'something' that MIGHT have been 'placed' in a bin, the previous evening?

My thoughts exactly.

by russiandoll 20.03.14 10:21

jean, I believe that the bins are significant, and together with the belief that Maddie might not have been alive when she left 5a, it is getting very interesting.

mirage, I believe that we are being drip-fed items which will lead to Redwood eventually stating that he has reached the same conclusion as GA.

DEATH IN THE APARTMENT, CONCEALMENT OF THE CORPSE.

if Redwood goes one stage further from believing that Maddie MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN ALIVE when she left 5a to stating that after further investigation his conclusion is that SHE WAS NOT ALIVE WHEN SHE LEFT 5a, he is almost at GA's conclusion.
He will have concluded as a certainty in that case that her body was removed and concealed.

By whom, in accordance with the evidence, is his next question.

by canada12 20.03.14 10:22

russiandoll wrote:save this for posterity, too, from Portugal [ can't enlarge the text, sorry, can admin please do so ? ]

noticiasaominuto.com/pais/191195/novo-suspeito-da-policia-britanica-ja-foi-investigado-pela-pj-e-esta-morto … Translation in pic below #McCann

[size=28.8] [/size]

Imo this new man from SY given to the media to keep others busy with speculation while they continue investigating facts.

Lots of calls, texts and e mails acc to CW , just like last time.

How interesting!

So Smellyman is actually Tractorman and is dead and was eliminated a long time ago.

Presumably Andy Redwood knew this all along, therefore the big news story yesterday was not that they'd discovered this new suspect, but, buried in all the hoopla, the revamping of their theory and perhaps refocussing their thoughts on the idea that Madeleine was likely dead on the night she disappeared.

Small steps.

And how are the McCanns reacting to this revelation? By handily ignoring it. Wouldn't one expect innocent parents to have some sort of reaction? If she was dead, they'd want to know more, surely.

Or will they continue to advocate that she's still alive, against increasingly unlikely odds?

by Doug D 20.03.14 10:23

I find it interesting that the BBC makes no mention of the McC’s this morning, yet does highlight two of the other cases from CW last night. Even they no longer believe the bollocks presumably!

On a more positive note, J.Rob I believe, way back in this thread highlighted the fact that ‘Smelly Binman’ is in fact mentioned in exhibit KH1 on p.296.

If Redwood is working through the elimination of all possible suspects in order to ‘prove the circumstantial’, he only has another few pages to go until he gets to Chapter 21 (p314) ‘Closing The Case”.

by Guest 20.03.14 10:24

russiandoll wrote:jean, I believe that the bins are significant, and together with the belief that Maddie might not have been alive when she left 5a, it is getting very interesting.

Bins and rubbish are a recurring theme in the narrative. Fridges is another one. Cold/freezing water is another. I wonder where it's all headed?

by **Tony Bennett** 20.03.14 10:26

russiandoll wrote:I have read and heard the media trashing the Portuguese police, but I have not heard UK police do so...

Maybe not so directly, but more subtly.

The Portuguese Police would not IMO be trashed so routinely in the British press unless the British police gave them tacit support.

As in this, recently, from Britain's top copper (in rank, but certainly not in integrity), Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe:

++++++++

Sir Bernard, 56, replied: “That’s right.’’ Asked if detectives had “spoken to those people” the Met chief said...that the investigation was being hampered because Portuguese police were pursuing a different line of inquiry. He repeated his call for both forces to unite for the sake of Madeleine’s parents Kate and Gerry, both 45. The police chief said: “In the middle of all this quite often their torment gets lost".

What he was saying, make no mistake, is that the pig-headed Portuguese, in refusing his force's calls to 'pursue the same line of enquiry' and 'unite', had lost sight of the 'torment' of Kate & Gerry.

We are right. We haven't lost sight of Gerry and Kate's 'torment'.

They are wrong.

by canada12 20.03.14 10:27

[quote="Cristobell]

Thank you Canada! smilie

I seem to be the only one jumping for joy and drinking champagne (I wish, lol).

The pros are already spinning stories to support the Mccanns' innocence, even if Madeleine had died in the apartment. They are panicking.

And yes, agree entirely, will the McCanns now sue DCI Redwood for saying the same thing as Goncalo Amaral? The mere suggestion of death in the apartment kills the abduction theory stone dead. It is game over. [/quote]

I remember a time when the McCanns would have been all over the papers decrying anyone who dared suggest that Madeleine was dead. Instead we have Clarence on tv focusing on the new lead. And the McCanns thanking SY for their thoroughness.

How times have changed.

by jeanmonroe 20.03.14 10:27

In this case the theory of those who believe this latest suspect is responsible for Maddie's disappearance and who integrate Redwood's belief that Maddie might not have left 5a alive is that the abductor

assaulted then killed Maddie, before removing her body and dumping it.
-----------------------------------------------------

Just like he did with all the other 'assaults' on the white British kids, on the previous 12 'break ins' he was involved in?

Er, NOT!

No 'other' child who was 'assaulted' was 'killed' 'removed' or 'dumped' by Stinky Fella!

by canada12 20.03.14 10:35

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
russiandoll wrote:jean, I believe that the bins are significant, and together with the belief that Maddie might not have been alive when she left 5a, it is getting very interesting.

Bins and rubbish are a recurring theme in the narrative. Fridges is another one. Cold/freezing water is another. I wonder where it's all headed?

Mind games...
SY knows the truth.

by Tangled Web 20.03.14 10:37

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
russiandoll wrote:jean, I believe that the bins are significant, and together with the belief that Maddie might not have been alive when she left 5a, it is getting very interesting.

Bins and rubbish are a recurring theme in the narrative. Fridges is another one. Cold/freezing water is another. I wonder where it's all headed?

Sadly, sexual assualt crops up regularly too.