Re: Dr Martin Roberts - NO WAY OUT

by joyce1938 13.07.13 12:08

I read somewhere,that there is evidence to support a high level use of sleeping tablets ofcourse it may have no baring at all.joyce1938

by Sceneset 13.07.13 12:58

I feel that they may have all used sedation which if revealed, may have put their careers/ family in jeopardy and that alone could have been enough.

They stated they 'had a pact'. To have a pact there needs to be discussion and agreement and planning.

A pact is a strong word. It is a treaty, a covenant, a contract.

by aiyoyo 13.07.13 13:56

russiandoll wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:So, in your opinion, MO was never really in the apartment? And aside from GM and KM neither was anyone else that evening?

Is it at all possible that the Tapas group have been persuaded to help the McCanns without knowing the whole picture?

As an example, GM tells the group that MM died as a result of an accident? Could've happened to any one of the group .... etc

Doesn't mention to them any sedation or anything?

The question surely would have been asked by the group...why does there need to be a cover up of an accident? Children and accidents go together and the usual routing is a medical assessment by a local doctor or at the nearest hospital.
Many doctors in the group, assessment by them would have resulted in treatment on the spot, no further action needed.
Or they did not have what was necessary for the situation and hospital was required.
This did not happen. So why was a cover up needed? What was it that could not be discovered?

If one of the friends was involved in a blotched attempt to resuscitate her then there is reason for friends to stick together.
Because they were unwittingly drawn into Mr & Mrs shitty mess, and could not get out without a good explanation that wont get them in trouble with the law.
If not strike off, then suspended at the very least and the stigma that won't go away.

I believe the friends were only involved after the fact....

by **tigger** 13.07.13 13:59

I would think that sedation is hardly necessary unless children have been used to it.
A child in a strange setting, after a long journey getting there, having daily new (very new - such as a boat ride) experiences and interacting non stop with other children and their parents afterwards as well as the children which have come with the group (the tea at the Tapas bar every day) these children would sleep pretty well imo without any help.

Imo it's only children who've had 'help' with getting to sleep who'd be fractious and difficult to settle. Which the twins were after 3/5/07, as the diary tells us.

by sheila.edwards 13.07.13 14:14

there may have been medical emergency after reaction to some form of sedative given recommended by another member of group perhaps, as felt sorry for them settling maddy. that would implicate others and if known all other children in group would have to be tested ! pact made to cover up permanently and if so someone may confess as they should have done at start.imo

by Guest 13.07.13 14:31

tigger wrote:[...]
Imo it's only children who've had 'help' with getting to sleep who'd be fractious and difficult to settle. Which the twins were after 3/5/07, as the diary tells us.

***
Good observation. Instead of falling asleep as in an oiled routine all three at the same time [with "help"], the two remaining are difficult to settle [without "help"]. I remain of the opinion, that - indeed - sedatives were given to the children. However, IMO, there's much [if not much, much] more to the "story" ...

by Nina 13.07.13 15:52

candyfloss wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:One further thought regarding patio doors, it seems as though it was usual for the McCanns to leave their patio doors open at night, remember Mrs Fenn said that on the Tues the crying stopped when she heard the patio doors opening.

Do you mean open as unlocked or shutters up suzy?

Candyfloss, I mean it couldn't be the case that the McCanns always used the front door if Mrs Fenn heard them arriving back on the Tues and opening the patio doors. And they couldn't have opened the patio doors from the outside if the door was locked or the shutters were down could they?

According to GM statements they used the front door up until Wednesday night, and for some reason decided to start using the back door/patio from the Wednesday and Thursday. This thread shows this........

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mrs Fenn assumed that it was the parents returning, well you would wouldn't you and the crying stopped. She didn't mention hearing the street gate being opened, or the baby gate being opened but she heard the slide of the patio door. And she didn't mention any other sound as in toilets flushing or cupboard doors opening, or water whilst teeth were being brushed. Just the usual sounds , quiet sounds, but sounds of an arrival back and preparation for bed She assumed a. it was the parents, and b. that they were returning. The crying that she described as getting louder and more distressed as time went on during the 75 minutes and the shouting of Daddy Daddy stopped suddenly with not another sound.
This has been discussed before I know.
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

by Newintown 13.07.13 18:14

Nina wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:One further thought regarding patio doors, it seems as though it was usual for the McCanns to leave their patio doors open at night, remember Mrs Fenn said that on the Tues the crying stopped when she heard the patio doors opening.

Do you mean open as unlocked or shutters up suzy?

Candyfloss, I mean it couldn't be the case that the McCanns always used the front door if Mrs Fenn heard them arriving back on the Tues and opening the patio doors. And they couldn't have opened the patio doors from the outside if the door was locked or the shutters were down could they?

According to GM statements they used the front door up until Wednesday night, and for some reason decided to start using the back door/patio from the Wednesday and Thursday. This thread shows this........

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mrs Fenn assumed that it was the parents returning, well you would wouldn't you and the crying stopped. She didn't mention hearing the street gate being opened, or the baby gate being opened but she heard the slide of the patio door. And she didn't mention any other sound as in toilets flushing or cupboard doors opening, or water whilst teeth were being brushed. Just the usual sounds , quiet sounds, but sounds of an arrival back and preparation for bed She assumed a. it was the parents, and b. that they were returning. The crying that she described as getting louder and more distressed as time went on during the 75 minutes and the shouting of Daddy Daddy stopped suddenly with not another sound.
This has been discussed before I know.
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

Mrs Fenn said that the patio door slid open and the crying stopped so it must have been someone entering the apartment because it they were leaving the apartment the crying would have stopped then the patio door would have been opened, unless someone opened the patio door, the crying stopped, and they left the apartment without sliding the patio door shut (or went through the front door) otherwise Mrs Fenn would have heard it twice, if that makes sense. Where that leaves us, I'm not quite sure, but I just thought I'd mention it. smilie

That was on the Tuesday night, could one of the Tapas friends have been walking past the apartment and heard the crying and alerted K & G McCann who were at the Tapas Bar, went to see Madeleine, gave her something to keep her quiet, too much perhaps, and she overdosed and that was it. Weren't they at the Millennium bar one night to the early hours of the morning, perhaps someone on here can remember, could it have been the Tuesday night, and they went there after the Tapas and left Madeleine alone for some hours again.

As to Mrs Fenn not hearing the 2 gates been opened and closed, anyone, especially someone tall, could probably step over each gate without having to open them, even a female wearing trousers or jeans.

by Guest 13.07.13 18:57

Nina wrote:
Mrs Fenn assumed that it was the parents returning, well you would wouldn't you and the crying stopped. She didn't mention hearing the street gate being opened, or the baby gate being opened but she heard the slide of the patio door. And she didn't mention any other sound as in toilets flushing or cupboard doors opening, or water whilst teeth were being brushed. Just the usual sounds , quiet sounds, but sounds of an arrival back and preparation for bed She assumed a. it was the parents, and b. that they were returning. The crying that she described as getting louder and more distressed as time went on during the 75 minutes and the shouting of Daddy Daddy stopped suddenly with not another sound.
This has been discussed before I know.
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

It makes a lot of sense in one way, Nina. I know Kate's phone went off a few times from the apartment and that's the night Kate wasn't at the table. But why would the others cover for her? If they had any doubts then surely they'd be immediately concerned for the twins if not for themselves and perverting the course of justice is a serious charge. And even if they were told it was an accident surely they'd have urged the McCanns to come clean.

by suzyjohnson 13.07.13 20:21

I don't believe there was anything particularly dramatic about the night of the 1st. I have always taken what Mrs Fenn said at face value, if she had experience with children I think she would be able to gauge the situation. Sometimes young children will cry for attention in the evening, even when there is nothing particularly wrong, in those circumstances they stop the minute an adult enters the room, it's different to the sounds of distress when something is really upsetting them.

If Kate kept phoning from the apartment that, or any other, night it was probably because she kept trying to get Madeleine and the others to go to sleep and they kept waking up again the minute she left the room. It's what kids do if they feel like they're missing out on something and they don't want to go to bed. If she then left to go back to the restaurant, I can imagine the children yelling until the McCanns came back.

The question is, knowing this state of affairs, what did the McCanns do about the situation next? They clearly didn't decide to stay in with the children on the Wed or Thurs night.

by whmon 13.07.13 21:54

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. In my experience young children do not stop crying when an adult enters the room. I base this on having once had a young child of my own (who is now an adult) and also presently owning a Children's Day Nursery. Children will continue to cry until they are placated.

by Newintown 13.07.13 22:11

Finn wrote:
Nina wrote:
Mrs Fenn assumed that it was the parents returning, well you would wouldn't you and the crying stopped. She didn't mention hearing the street gate being opened, or the baby gate being opened but she heard the slide of the patio door. And she didn't mention any other sound as in toilets flushing or cupboard doors opening, or water whilst teeth were being brushed. Just the usual sounds , quiet sounds, but sounds of an arrival back and preparation for bed She assumed a. it was the parents, and b. that they were returning. The crying that she described as getting louder and more distressed as time went on during the 75 minutes and the shouting of Daddy Daddy stopped suddenly with not another sound.
This has been discussed before I know.
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

It makes a lot of sense in one way, Nina. I know Kate's phone went off a few times from the apartment and that's the night Kate wasn't at the table. But why would the others cover for her? If they had any doubts then surely they'd be immediately concerned for the twins if not for themselves and perverting the course of justice is a serious charge. And even if they were told it was an accident surely they'd have urged the McCanns to come clean.

Line in red: can you enlighten me on that fact, I don't understand it or where it came from. Thanks.

by suzyjohnson 13.07.13 22:12

whmon wrote:I'm sorry but I have to disagree. In my experience young children do not stop crying when an adult enters the room. I base this on having once had a young child of my own (who is now an adult) and also presently owning a Children's Day Nursery. Children will continue to cry until they are placated.

Yes, sometimes they do continue crying, I didn't mean they always stop crying when an adult comes into the room. Just, sometimes when there's nothing really wrong, they just want to get your attention, sometimes at night when they don't want to stay in bed and go to sleep.

This is the situation I envisaged anyway from what Mrs Fenn said. I could be wrong.

by suzyjohnson 13.07.13 22:14

Newintown wrote:
Finn wrote:
Nina wrote:
Mrs Fenn assumed that it was the parents returning, well you would wouldn't you and the crying stopped. She didn't mention hearing the street gate being opened, or the baby gate being opened but she heard the slide of the patio door. And she didn't mention any other sound as in toilets flushing or cupboard doors opening, or water whilst teeth were being brushed. Just the usual sounds , quiet sounds, but sounds of an arrival back and preparation for bed She assumed a. it was the parents, and b. that they were returning. The crying that she described as getting louder and more distressed as time went on during the 75 minutes and the shouting of Daddy Daddy stopped suddenly with not another sound.
This has been discussed before I know.
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

It makes a lot of sense in one way, Nina. I know Kate's phone went off a few times from the apartment and that's the night Kate wasn't at the table. But why would the others cover for her? If they had any doubts then surely they'd be immediately concerned for the twins if not for themselves and perverting the course of justice is a serious charge. And even if they were told it was an accident surely they'd have urged the McCanns to come clean.

Line in red: can you enlighten me on that fact, I don't understand it or where it came from. Thanks.

It was on the mobile phone records list, a few calls from the apartment. Although I can't remember whether or not it was the Tues.

by Guest 13.07.13 23:08

suzyjohnson wrote:[ [...]
Yes, sometimes they do continue crying, I didn't mean they always stop crying when an adult comes into the room. Just, sometimes when there's nothing really wrong, they just want to get your attention, sometimes at night when they don't want to stay in bed and go to sleep.

This is the situation I envisaged anyway from what Mrs Fenn said. I could be wrong.

***
With due respect, I think you are wrong, Suzy.
The child Mrs Fenn describes had been crying for 75 minutes ! That kind of crying doesn't stop within seconds. It will wind down, go into sobbing, then into silence being comforted. BUT they don't stop as in period. IMO, of course, IMO.

by Guest 13.07.13 23:11

Nina wrote: [...]
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

***
As much as I hate to think such a thing, I do think you may be right, Nina.
IMO, as always ...

by loopzdaloop 14.07.13 1:28

marconi wrote:I wonder why the cry incident ( May the 1st) did not wait up the twins. Mrs Fenn only heard Madeleine, for 75 minutes.

I think that's the night she actually fell off the sofa and cracked her head as its a long time for a child to be crying.
Similarly, on no other occasions have the mccanns volunteered something that would make them look bad such as the "why didn't you come for us" comment. That can only have been volunteered to serve another function, which would be to prove that she was alive. They must have had time to plan the abduction story. I really can't see the death happening the same night as the abduction as its a lot to have occurred in one night. It's therefore unlikely. What are others perspectives on this?
In my mind it would explain the doctoring of the crèche records as well as the photos. Maybe this sort of situation reinforces the meaning of the term "doctoring"!

by Guest 14.07.13 1:40

loopzdaloop wrote:
marconi wrote:I wonder why the cry incident ( May the 1st) did not wait up the twins. Mrs Fenn only heard Madeleine, for 75 minutes.

I think that's the night she actually fell off the sofa and cracked her head as its a long time for a child to be crying.
Similarly, on no other occasions have the mccanns volunteered something that would make them look bad such as the "why didn't you come for us" comment. That can only have been volunteered to serve another function, which would be to prove that she was alive. They must have had time to plan the abduction story. I really can't see the death happening the same night as the abduction as its a lot to have occurred in one night. It's therefore unlikely. What are others perspectives on this?
In my mind it would explain the doctoring of the crèche records as well as the photos. Maybe this sort of situation reinforces the meaning of the term "doctoring"!

Bearing in the mind the conflicting versions of events as portrayed by the Mccanns and their friends, as in what happened and when, don't you think it possible that Kate McCann was actually with her daughter when she was crying? I am thinking the night the aerobic instructor was invited to the table by Gerry McCann, the night Kate McCann slept in the room with the kids because she had the hump with her husband for some reason, like he wasn't paying attention to her during dinner and possible even the night before Kate McCann discovered a mysterious stain onher daughters to p that she saw fit to explain and wash the following day?

by Newintown 14.07.13 2:20

suzyjohnson wrote:
Newintown wrote:
Finn wrote:
Nina wrote:
Mrs Fenn assumed that it was the parents returning, well you would wouldn't you and the crying stopped. She didn't mention hearing the street gate being opened, or the baby gate being opened but she heard the slide of the patio door. And she didn't mention any other sound as in toilets flushing or cupboard doors opening, or water whilst teeth were being brushed. Just the usual sounds , quiet sounds, but sounds of an arrival back and preparation for bed She assumed a. it was the parents, and b. that they were returning. The crying that she described as getting louder and more distressed as time went on during the 75 minutes and the shouting of Daddy Daddy stopped suddenly with not another sound.
This has been discussed before I know.
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

It makes a lot of sense in one way, Nina. I know Kate's phone went off a few times from the apartment and that's the night Kate wasn't at the table. But why would the others cover for her? If they had any doubts then surely they'd be immediately concerned for the twins if not for themselves and perverting the course of justice is a serious charge. And even if they were told it was an accident surely they'd have urged the McCanns to come clean.

Line in red: can you enlighten me on that fact, I don't understand it or where it came from. Thanks.

It was on the mobile phone records list, a few calls from the apartment. Although I can't remember whether or not it was the Tues.

OK, thanks.

by marconi 14.07.13 3:24

Kate delayed the launch of her book to 14 days after the royals got married and one day later the Yard got involved in the case.

Within a few days, the royal baby will be born. Will we see arrests 15 days later?

by duncanmac 14.07.13 10:23

Kate, I am certain from the mobile phones thread it was stated that the phone calls could only prove that KM was in PDL at the times, it was impossible to link the phone pings direct to the apartment

by plebgate 14.07.13 10:29

I remember very early days, and I think it was Paulo Reis who posted, that the pings showed Mrs. phone was close to the apartment, not in it.

by loopzdaloop 14.07.13 12:16

Gollum wrote:
loopzdaloop wrote:
marconi wrote:I wonder why the cry incident ( May the 1st) did not wait up the twins. Mrs Fenn only heard Madeleine, for 75 minutes.

I think that's the night she actually fell off the sofa and cracked her head as its a long time for a child to be crying.
Similarly, on no other occasions have the mccanns volunteered something that would make them look bad such as the "why didn't you come for us" comment. That can only have been volunteered to serve another function, which would be to prove that she was alive. They must have had time to plan the abduction story. I really can't see the death happening the same night as the abduction as its a lot to have occurred in one night. It's therefore unlikely. What are others perspectives on this?
In my mind it would explain the doctoring of the crèche records as well as the photos. Maybe this sort of situation reinforces the meaning of the term "doctoring"!

Bearing in the mind the conflicting versions of events as portrayed by the Mccanns and their friends, as in what happened and when, don't you think it possible that Kate McCann was actually with her daughter when she was crying? I am thinking the night the aerobic instructor was invited to the table by Gerry McCann, the night Kate McCann slept in the room with the kids because she had the hump with her husband for some reason, like he wasn't paying attention to her during dinner and possible even the night before Kate McCann discovered a mysterious stain onher daughters to p that she saw fit to explain and wash the following day?

The tea stain was their prepared excuse to explain away blood should her PJ's ever get found.
I wonder if it was those PJ's they claimed she was abducted in, which would mean that they dressed the body in a clean pair, which would have been the pair that the smiths saw.

Maybe Gerry inviting the aerobics instructor over wasn't due to a wandering eye but for the purposes of building a potential alibi as to who was at the table.

by Guest 14.07.13 13:02

For me the problem seems that there are some pieces of a whole other jigsaw mixed up.

Does anyone think it's possible that Madeleine had a babysitter that night (1st) but simply cried because she wanted her daddy? Plenty children have returned from sleepovers because they missed their parents. If she wasn't a good sleeper she may have been aware of the late night antics and feeling unsettled.

by Newintown 14.07.13 14:56

Newintown wrote:
Nina wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:One further thought regarding patio doors, it seems as though it was usual for the McCanns to leave their patio doors open at night, remember Mrs Fenn said that on the Tues the crying stopped when she heard the patio doors opening.

Do you mean open as unlocked or shutters up suzy?

Candyfloss, I mean it couldn't be the case that the McCanns always used the front door if Mrs Fenn heard them arriving back on the Tues and opening the patio doors. And they couldn't have opened the patio doors from the outside if the door was locked or the shutters were down could they?

According to GM statements they used the front door up until Wednesday night, and for some reason decided to start using the back door/patio from the Wednesday and Thursday. This thread shows this........

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mrs Fenn assumed that it was the parents returning, well you would wouldn't you and the crying stopped. She didn't mention hearing the street gate being opened, or the baby gate being opened but she heard the slide of the patio door. And she didn't mention any other sound as in toilets flushing or cupboard doors opening, or water whilst teeth were being brushed. Just the usual sounds , quiet sounds, but sounds of an arrival back and preparation for bed She assumed a. it was the parents, and b. that they were returning. The crying that she described as getting louder and more distressed as time went on during the 75 minutes and the shouting of Daddy Daddy stopped suddenly with not another sound.
This has been discussed before I know.
I have a fear that it was someone leaving and that Madeleine was never to cry again.

Mrs Fenn said that the patio door slid open and the crying stopped so it must have been someone entering the apartment because it they were leaving the apartment the crying would have stopped then the patio door would have been opened, unless someone opened the patio door, the crying stopped, and they left the apartment without sliding the patio door shut (or went through the front door) otherwise Mrs Fenn would have heard it twice, if that makes sense. Where that leaves us, I'm not quite sure, but I just thought I'd mention it.

That was on the Tuesday night, could one of the Tapas friends have been walking past the apartment and heard the crying and alerted K & G McCann who were at the Tapas Bar, went to see Madeleine, gave her something to keep her quiet, too much perhaps, and she overdosed and that was it. Weren't they at the Millennium bar one night to the early hours of the morning, perhaps someone on here can remember, could it have been the Tuesday night, and they went there after the Tapas and left Madeleine alone for some hours again.

As to Mrs Fenn not hearing the 2 gates been opened and closed, anyone, especially someone tall and with long legs, could probably step over each gate without having to open them, even a female wearing trousers or jeans.