Timeline questiom
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Honesty 17.08.24 9:04
Thank you. Has KM ever given an expanation for this timeline?
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Paddingtom 17.08.24 11:15
crusader wrote:Who's Carolyn?
Carpenter?
No idea. Who is carolyn carpenter?
I agree with your point that if MM was really missing they wouldnt need timelines. If MM was really missing they would be headless chickens running around screaming her name, not writting up timelines.
Any idea who Steve is?
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Re: Timeline questiom
by PeterMac 17.08.24 11:26
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The Word Processed one follows. It is in Gerry McCanns Blogs,,
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As recalled by:
Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B
Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge.
Prior to 2030, all couples and children were in their apartments preparing for bedtime.
- 5A (Madeleine, Amelie and Sean McCann)
- 5B (Grace Oldfield)
- 5D (Ella and Evie O'Brien) and
- 5H (Lily and Scarlett Payne)
2030: Standard booking for meal at Tapas restaurant for group – same all week (Sun–Thur)
2035: Gerry McCann (GM) and Kate McCann (KC) arrive at table at Tapas Restaurant.
2040: Jane Tanner (JT) arrives, followed shortly by Matthew Oldfield (MO) and Rachael Mampilly Oldfield (RMO)
2045: Russell O'Brien (RJO) arrives at table.
2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP) and Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats’ windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
The door is slightly ajar (about 45 degrees) which is unusual. All the 3 children were present and asleep. GM believes the shutter was down. The room in which the children are asleep is completely dark. On leaving the room, GM shuts the door to approximately 5 degrees. He then goes to the toilet to urinate.
2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.
As JT continued up the hill towards the junction with Rua A. da Silva, she sees a man carrying a child in his arms crossing left to right from the apartment side continuing east along Rua A. da Silva in the direction of the "Millennium restaurant." He was on the same side of the road as JT 5-10 metres ahead of her.
Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tall approximately with a slim build.
- Good head of dark glossy hair with possible flick of hair to the right. The hair was longer at the back (i.e. not clippered or shaven).
- The central and the left side of the face were not seen
- Full length trousers, casual, the material hanging without creases. The colour was possibly a browny mustard. They were not jeans.
- Long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper. It had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour.
- Shoes may have been a semi-formal brogue.
- Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained.
- He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects.
- He was only carrying a child, with the head against the left upper chest away from JT and the feet to the right – i.e. cradling the child like a baby.
- He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere.
- He was not someone JT recognised from the week.
- He was not dressed typically for a "tourist," or at least his clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and may have been purchased in Portugal.
Description of Child:
- The child appeared to be a Caucasian girl about the ages of 3-4.
- She was seen to lie motionless/limp in the man's arms consistent with her sleeping or possibly drugged.
- She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were light coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not well seen though there was thought to be another colour involved possibly pink.
- She was not wearing shoes.
JT checked only 5D entering via the deadlocked door on the car park side of the apartment. Both children inside were asleep. She did not check 5A or 5B.
2120: JT then returns to the restaurant, by which time GM has also returned. The entire party then begins eating their starters which have arrived.
2125: After starters, MO and RJO go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all flats. They go first to 5D where RJO's daughter Evie is heard crying. RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, and then returns to 5D.
2130: RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance. The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.
MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot. He does not enter the bedroom but can see through a now quite open door (greater than 45 degrees) into the room.
He sees the two twins in their cot, but does not check Madeleine formally as no sounds and twins asleep. He recalls the room did seem lighter than expected, perhaps suggesting the shutter had been raised or the curtains opened?
2135: MO returns to restaurant table, by which time main courses are arriving or being eaten. MO tells JT that Evie unwell.
2140: JT returns to 5D to take over care of Evie from RJO.
2145: RJO returns to table to eat main course leaving JT in 5D.
2155: RMO asked time at table. RJO's main course arrives.
22.00: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed. She enters through the closed patio entrance, with the curtains closed. She crosses the living area, and there is no noise from the children's bedroom. She is about to leave, when she notices the bedroom door was open (approximately 60 degrees).
She starts to close it and it slams. Considering the patio doors had caused a draft, she checks these doors but they are closed. KM returns to the bedroom and opens the door to check the children were not disturbed by the noise.
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtains and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the windows pushed open to the left as far as possible.
She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes.
On failing to find Madeleine, she runs to the entrance of the restaurant, shouting from the path leading to the restaurant area raising the alarm that Madeleine was missing.
********
The Oldfield check from No 1, gets whooshed for No 2, then reinstated with ludicrous detail in No 3
Sneak preview from Chapter 62, coming out today !!
The Word Processed one follows. It is in Gerry McCanns Blogs,,
| The McCanns and Tapas group's prepared timeline, type-written and presented to the PJ on 10 May 2007 |
As recalled by:
Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B
Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge.
Prior to 2030, all couples and children were in their apartments preparing for bedtime.
- 5A (Madeleine, Amelie and Sean McCann)
- 5B (Grace Oldfield)
- 5D (Ella and Evie O'Brien) and
- 5H (Lily and Scarlett Payne)
2030: Standard booking for meal at Tapas restaurant for group – same all week (Sun–Thur)
2035: Gerry McCann (GM) and Kate McCann (KC) arrive at table at Tapas Restaurant.
2040: Jane Tanner (JT) arrives, followed shortly by Matthew Oldfield (MO) and Rachael Mampilly Oldfield (RMO)
2045: Russell O'Brien (RJO) arrives at table.
2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP) and Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats’ windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
The door is slightly ajar (about 45 degrees) which is unusual. All the 3 children were present and asleep. GM believes the shutter was down. The room in which the children are asleep is completely dark. On leaving the room, GM shuts the door to approximately 5 degrees. He then goes to the toilet to urinate.
2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.
As JT continued up the hill towards the junction with Rua A. da Silva, she sees a man carrying a child in his arms crossing left to right from the apartment side continuing east along Rua A. da Silva in the direction of the "Millennium restaurant." He was on the same side of the road as JT 5-10 metres ahead of her.
Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tall approximately with a slim build.
- Good head of dark glossy hair with possible flick of hair to the right. The hair was longer at the back (i.e. not clippered or shaven).
- The central and the left side of the face were not seen
- Full length trousers, casual, the material hanging without creases. The colour was possibly a browny mustard. They were not jeans.
- Long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper. It had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour.
- Shoes may have been a semi-formal brogue.
- Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained.
- He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects.
- He was only carrying a child, with the head against the left upper chest away from JT and the feet to the right – i.e. cradling the child like a baby.
- He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere.
- He was not someone JT recognised from the week.
- He was not dressed typically for a "tourist," or at least his clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and may have been purchased in Portugal.
Description of Child:
- The child appeared to be a Caucasian girl about the ages of 3-4.
- She was seen to lie motionless/limp in the man's arms consistent with her sleeping or possibly drugged.
- She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were light coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not well seen though there was thought to be another colour involved possibly pink.
- She was not wearing shoes.
JT checked only 5D entering via the deadlocked door on the car park side of the apartment. Both children inside were asleep. She did not check 5A or 5B.
2120: JT then returns to the restaurant, by which time GM has also returned. The entire party then begins eating their starters which have arrived.
2125: After starters, MO and RJO go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all flats. They go first to 5D where RJO's daughter Evie is heard crying. RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, and then returns to 5D.
2130: RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance. The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.
MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot. He does not enter the bedroom but can see through a now quite open door (greater than 45 degrees) into the room.
He sees the two twins in their cot, but does not check Madeleine formally as no sounds and twins asleep. He recalls the room did seem lighter than expected, perhaps suggesting the shutter had been raised or the curtains opened?
2135: MO returns to restaurant table, by which time main courses are arriving or being eaten. MO tells JT that Evie unwell.
2140: JT returns to 5D to take over care of Evie from RJO.
2145: RJO returns to table to eat main course leaving JT in 5D.
2155: RMO asked time at table. RJO's main course arrives.
22.00: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed. She enters through the closed patio entrance, with the curtains closed. She crosses the living area, and there is no noise from the children's bedroom. She is about to leave, when she notices the bedroom door was open (approximately 60 degrees).
She starts to close it and it slams. Considering the patio doors had caused a draft, she checks these doors but they are closed. KM returns to the bedroom and opens the door to check the children were not disturbed by the noise.
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtains and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the windows pushed open to the left as far as possible.
She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes.
On failing to find Madeleine, she runs to the entrance of the restaurant, shouting from the path leading to the restaurant area raising the alarm that Madeleine was missing.
********
The Oldfield check from No 1, gets whooshed for No 2, then reinstated with ludicrous detail in No 3
Sneak preview from Chapter 62, coming out today !!
CHAPTER 62
Pool Photo Proves Madeleine Was Dead
The Pool Photo is one of the strongest pieces of evidence
AGAINST the McCanns
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Paddingtom 17.08.24 11:31
Honesty wrote:Thank you. Has KM ever given an expanation for this timeline?
Not to my knowledge. That doesnt mean she hasnt,
My guess is that this is the proper interpretation:
8.35. pm rest. First to arrive
8.40.p.m. Jane next
Russell? Held (up?) Evie moody
8.45.p.m. Matt and Rachel
9.00.p.m G- conversation with Steve
9.30..p.m. Matt – Carolyn
R is out for a long time
Jane went to replace him
10.00p.m. me
Do you notice 10.00pm me? Not 10.00p.m. discovered MM missing? or 10.00p.mp. Check children?
no, its "me".............Im next in the timeline/on the list. Its a shopping ;list...things to do....and tick off.
Do you also notice no mention of the Paynes?.
This list only refers to those which had a part to play in the story.
Those that didnt, werent mentioned they neded to keep track of the players and keep them on time.
.
The Paynes did not contribute to this evening as far as Im aware, other than it being recognised that they were late and one of the players was dispatched to hurry them up as the curtain was about to rise.
Was their lateness due to their understandable reluctance to take part? Stage fright? Did someone have to go and persuade them to come to the stage? The audience was waiting. Possibly.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by crusader 17.08.24 11:38
Steve and Carolyn Carpenter, Carolyn is the one who said she heard someone calling Madeleine at 9-30 as they left the tapas.
They stayed at FP02., very near to Murat's house.
They stayed at FP02., very near to Murat's house.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Bluebagthepirate 17.08.24 12:23
Anyone know why there is no rotatory interview with Caroline Carpenter because I see it was requested?
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Paddingtom 17.08.24 12:43
PeterMac quote:
"The Oldfield check from No 1, gets whooshed for No 2, then reinstated with ludicrous detail in No 3"
In Goncalo's book, he has the two timelines the other way round.
The one with the 9.35 Matt check, he calls the second. More specifically: "In the second surveillance scheme some changes appear which will not be innocent". Bless him.
Anyway, my point is, perhaps it makes more sense for them to be Goncalo's way round. i.e. theyve realised theyve got a problem and installed a 9.35 check to sort it out and are so pleased with thier work, that for version 3 they want to put some bells and whistles on it to make it really sing.
.
what do you think?
"The Oldfield check from No 1, gets whooshed for No 2, then reinstated with ludicrous detail in No 3"
In Goncalo's book, he has the two timelines the other way round.
The one with the 9.35 Matt check, he calls the second. More specifically: "In the second surveillance scheme some changes appear which will not be innocent". Bless him.
Anyway, my point is, perhaps it makes more sense for them to be Goncalo's way round. i.e. theyve realised theyve got a problem and installed a 9.35 check to sort it out and are so pleased with thier work, that for version 3 they want to put some bells and whistles on it to make it really sing.
.
what do you think?
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Paddingtom 17.08.24 13:03
Notice the timeline with the 9.35 check has Gerry spelt wrong (Jerry) it was probably written by RUss
The other timeline was probably written by Gerry as his name is spelt correctly but he mentions Jane Tanner.
Russ is unlikely to call his wife Jane Tanner -just Jane as he does in the 9.35 timeline one.
The other timeline was probably written by Gerry as his name is spelt correctly but he mentions Jane Tanner.
Russ is unlikely to call his wife Jane Tanner -just Jane as he does in the 9.35 timeline one.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by crusader 17.08.24 13:41
"Bluebagthepirate" wrote
Anyone know why there is no rotatory interview with Caroline Carpenter because I see it was requested?
I could forward a guess.
Caroline Carpenter was on a list of people requested by the McCann's by Carlos Abreu, so not a request directly from the PJ.
By this time, the investigation had begun to suspect the McCann's.
Anyone know why there is no rotatory interview with Caroline Carpenter because I see it was requested?
I could forward a guess.
Caroline Carpenter was on a list of people requested by the McCann's by Carlos Abreu, so not a request directly from the PJ.
By this time, the investigation had begun to suspect the McCann's.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by PeterMac 17.08.24 13:59
Handwriting. comparison
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Paddingtom 17.08.24 15:27
Id say its the same handwritting. Just noticed the one with the 9.35 check is first names only. Other one is surnames too,,,, not sure what this means.
Good job doctors can write so clearly eh? god forbid one of their prescriptions was misread by the pharmacy.
Good job doctors can write so clearly eh? god forbid one of their prescriptions was misread by the pharmacy.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Nina 17.08.24 16:49
I agree. The name Matt is exactly the same and quite distinct.Paddingtom wrote:Id say its the same handwritting. Just noticed the one with the 9.35 check is first names only. Other one is surnames too,,,, not sure what this means.
Good job doctors can write so clearly eh? god forbid one of their prescriptions was misread by the pharmacy.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by PeterMac 17.08.24 19:00
It does make sense to put them the other way round.
I had assumed that MO had realised he was being set up as the "Last to see her alive' and objected,
but putting that one first, and then the group adding bits to try to make it sound more believable,
and then doing the longer version a week later with all the extraneous detail does make slightly more sense in the Humpty Dumpty McCann world)
I have just made an EDIT and amendment to the new Chapter
Many thanks.
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I had assumed that MO had realised he was being set up as the "Last to see her alive' and objected,
but putting that one first, and then the group adding bits to try to make it sound more believable,
and then doing the longer version a week later with all the extraneous detail does make slightly more sense in the Humpty Dumpty McCann world)
I have just made an EDIT and amendment to the new Chapter
Many thanks.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Cake Lover 17.08.24 19:21
Petermac, do you think it would have been worth while their use of 'a strange man' being queried by the police? Such as 'What do you mean by strange'? They would have to reply 'Well, not one us', or 'We didn't know him'. They were surrounded by hundreds of strangers, and were themselves strangers to others. Could they have been pinned down a bit by more questioning? I don't really think so, but I haven't got a policeman's instinct or talent for eliciting more info.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by crusader 17.08.24 19:26
In the typed timeline agreed by all the tapas and McCann's, it say's Jane Tanner saw Gerry and Jez talking outside the patio gate of 5a just up the hill from the gate.
Yet when they returned to Praia da Luz with cameras, Gerry insisted he and Jez were on the other side of the road, leaving Jane in tears by telling her she was wrong.
Yet when they returned to Praia da Luz with cameras, Gerry insisted he and Jez were on the other side of the road, leaving Jane in tears by telling her she was wrong.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Cake Lover 17.08.24 22:18
Thinking about the 'strange man'; if they had been asked 'Do you mean he wasn't one of your group?' their reaction would have been interesting. Bluster and fluster, or indignation, or silence.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Paddingtom 18.08.24 6:57
PeterMac wrote:It does make sense to put them the other way round.
I had assumed that MO had realised he was being set up as the "Last to see her alive' and objected,
but putting that one first, and then the group adding bits to try to make it sound more believable,
and then doing the longer version a week later with all the extraneous detail does make slightly more sense in the Humpty Dumpty McCann world)
I have just made an EDIT and amendment to the new Chapter
Many thanks.
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Hey Peter, RESPECT.
Good on you for being willing to assess the information and be willing to change your mind if you have good cause.
With that endorsement I think we have good cause to definitively say the 9.35 Matt check one was the second timeline, not the first.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by PeterMac 18.08.24 7:14
Paddingtom wrote:
. . . I think we have good cause to definitively say the 9.35 Matt check one was the second timeline, not the first.
Probably !!!!
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Bluebagthepirate 18.08.24 7:55
Did anyone get a statement from Jez?crusader wrote:In the typed timeline agreed by all the tapas and McCann's, it say's Jane Tanner saw Gerry and Jez talking outside the patio gate of 5a just up the hill from the gate.
Yet when they returned to Praia da Luz with cameras, Gerry insisted he and Jez were on the other side of the road, leaving Jane in tears by telling her she was wrong.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by Bluebagthepirate 18.08.24 9:50
Great... look where Jez drew an X on his map for his meeting Gerry.
Very clear.
The Jane Tanner walk by never happened as Bernt pointed out.
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Re: Timeline questiom
by crusader 18.08.24 10:12
And the typed timeline handed to the PJ on the 10th May
was before the second round of interviews began.
This was in my opinion the one they wanted the police to take notice of.
Jez Wilkins wouldn't commit to a definite time he spoke to Gerry.
was before the second round of interviews began.
This was in my opinion the one they wanted the police to take notice of.
Jez Wilkins wouldn't commit to a definite time he spoke to Gerry.
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