Re: SMITHMAN 10: Is this absolute, 100% proof that the Smiths did not see Gerry McCann carrying away Madeleine at around 10pm on Thursday, 3 May, 2007?

by **Jill Havern** 23.04.17 19:21

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Have you read this? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Look at how Dr Martin Roberts measures Gerry's arm alongside Amelie and those on display were said to be 'a little bit smaller than Maddie's'! She would be tripping up in those jammies.

by Irene 2 23.04.17 19:39

Yes thanks I read the link yesterday. In the photo of him holding them up, including his hand, his forearm looks to be about the same length as the pyjamas. They have larger pants as is usual for that size to fit over a nappy which pulls them up a bit when worn. Did whoever gave the photo to the police claim they were Madeleine's pyjamas? What am I missing?

by Guest 29.10.17 21:29

Researching Snr Amaral's book, the Truth of the Lie, for something in particular regarding forensic evidence - I chanced upon this..

An Irish family in a state of shock - Chapter 20

The McCann couple return to Great Britain after more than four months spent in the Algarve. It’s an almost triumphant return. The media coverage is such that you’d think you were witnessing the liberation of hostages held for years in a far-off country. Gerald McCann is shown on television carrying his son, as he descends from the plane. The child’s head is against Gerald’s left shoulder and his arms dangling by his sides. Gerald walks across the tarmac, still holding his son closely against himself.

In Ireland, the Smiths are watching the BBC news, which is broadcasting the event. For them, it’s a shock: that person, they recognise him. That way of carrying his child, that way of walking…It’s the man they saw at around 10pm on May 3rd, with a little girl, who seemed to be deeply asleep, in his arms.

This image, brings back with a jolt, that of the man they encountered in the streets of Vila da Luz, on the evening of Madeleine’s disappearance. It’s as if the scene is repeating itself ….Mr Smith thinking he’s hallucinating, sees the same report on other channels, ITV and Sky News. From that moment, he is sure: the man they came across that night was Gerald McCann. Of that there is very little doubt. Upset by the implications of this discovery, he alerts the police and waits to be called back by those in charge of the investigation.

When we receive this information, at the end of September, we think we finally have the piece that will allow us to complete the puzzle. Because of this, we may be able to reconstruct the course of events on that cold night of May 3rd in Vila da Luz. We have a better understanding of why Jane Tanner, “sent,” the alleged abductor in the opposite direction to that taken by the man seen by the Smith family. Suspicion had to be diverted from Gerald who – if he was the guilty party – would have taken this route: leaving apartment 5A, the individual who was carrying the child, did not go east, towards Murat’s house, but west in the direction of the beach.

We decide to get the Smiths back to the Algarve, for a formal identification of Gerry McCann – by means of televised images, certainly – direct confrontation being impossible – and possibly proceed to a reconstruction of the events of the night of May 3rd. The National Director of the Judiciary police agrees, the process is set in motion, all the details are sorted out; all that remains is to choose the hotel where they will be put up. But the Smiths were never to come back to Portugal. After my departure, the PJ were to change their minds. They asked the Irish police to proceed with interviewing the witness. That decision was to seriously delay the process since the Smiths were not interviewed until several months later. Meanwhile, rumours were to circulate and people not involved with the investigation would be made aware of the existence of this witness; someone allegedly even sought out contact with the family, without its being known to what end.
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Apart from raising the obvious question .... 'why did it take from September 2007 (the McCanns return to the UK) to Crimewatch 2013, for the (sighting by way of an e-fit) to be released for public identification.

At the time of Snr Amaral's removal from the case continuing one year later to the time of his book release, he was still working on the hypothesis that Madeleine met with her fate on Thursday 3rd May 2007.

Considering the extensive research and analysis undertaken by members of CMoMM and associates, revealing compelling evidence that Madeleine met her fate earlier in the week, sometime between Sunday 29th April and Tuesday 1st May - I wonder what Snr Amaral thinks now?

Hopefully all will be revealed in due course. In particular his views on the veracity of the Smith sighting which has proved to be riddled with inconsistencies.

by Basil with a brush 30.10.17 6:30

Did the fridge disposal to a tip (by any member of the tapas crowd) actually take place?

Really?

No, really?

While on holiday?

Call me old fashioned.

by Mike Tesko 10.02.19 20:14

It is possible that Gerry McCann was the person carrying the child in his arms wearing pyjamas as witnessed by the Smith contingent, and that after he had disposed of the body, he removed the pyjamas and took them back for Kate to wash much later on, not on the morning of 3rd May 2007..

by Guest 10.02.19 20:37

Mike Tesko wrote:It is possible that Gerry McCann was the person carrying the child in his arms wearing pyjamas as witnessed by the Smith contingent, and that after he had disposed of the body, he removed the pyjamas and took them back for Kate to wash much later on, not on the morning of 3rd May 2007..

No, I don't think it's even remotely possible - but thanks for bumping such an important topic.

It's been lying dormant for quite a while. Let battle recommence!

by **sharonl** 10.02.19 20:43

E

Mike Tesko wrote:It is possible that Gerry McCann was the person carrying the child in his arms wearing pyjamas as witnessed by the Smith contingent, and that after he had disposed of the body, he removed the pyjamas and took them back for Kate to wash much later on, not on the morning of 3rd May 2007..

Is it possible that at the same time that Kate was sounding the alarm and instigating a huge search for Madeleine, Gerry was running around the area carrying her corpse, which may be 4 days old and previously frozen?

What do you suggest that he did with the pyjamas after he found the time to remove them? Did he run back through the area carrying them? Don't forget, blood was found under the tiles, do you think that the PJs got away unstained?

by Mike Tesko 11.02.19 1:40

sharonl wrote:E
Mike Tesko wrote:It is possible that Gerry McCann was the person carrying the child in his arms wearing pyjamas as witnessed by the Smith contingent, and that after he had disposed of the body, he removed the pyjamas and took them back for Kate to wash much later on, not on the morning of 3rd May 2007..

Is it possible that at the same time that Kate was sounding the alarm and instigating a huge search for Madeleine, Gerry was running around the area carrying her corpse, which may be 4 days old and previously frozen?

What do you suggest that he did with the pyjamas after he found the time to remove them? Did he run back through the area carrying them? Don't forget, blood was found under the tiles, do you think that the PJs got away unstained?

He used his sports holdall to bring her pyjamas back for Kate to wash later on...

What about the following sighting?[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Mike Tesko 11.02.19 1:44

Verdi wrote:
Mike Tesko wrote:It is possible that Gerry McCann was the person carrying the child in his arms wearing pyjamas as witnessed by the Smith contingent, and that after he had disposed of the body, he removed the pyjamas and took them back for Kate to wash much later on, not on the morning of 3rd May 2007..

No, I don't think it's even remotely possible - but thanks for bumping such an important topic.

It's been lying dormant for quite a while. Let battle recommence!

The man seen carrying a child by the Smith's was heading down in the direction of the coast, church, derelict building...

by Mike Tesko 11.02.19 10:20

Tony Bennett wrote:SMITHMAN 10

Is this absolute, 100% proof that the Smiths did not see Gerry McCann carrying away Madeleine at around 10pm on Thursday, 3 May, 2007?

Finally, we seem to have absolute proof that the Smith family from Drogheda did NOT see Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine through the streets of Praia da Luz on the late evening of Thursday 3 May 2017.

It comes in two long papers by Nigel Moore, who ran the former McCannFiles site, and his colleague Dr Martin Roberts.

In short, these two articles purport to tell the story of what really happened to Madeleine’s pyjamas, pictured here:

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Up till now, few have read and understood the significance of these two brilliant pieces of research.

But now Richard D Hall has made these two papers accessible on film. He has summarised the research by Moore & Roberts in a short, 4½-minute clip on the first of his two latest Madeleine McCann films, ‘Robert Murat’, link here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The sequence about Madeleine’s pyjamas begins at 1 min 0 secs and finishes at 5 mins 30 secs.

To sum up these 4½ minutes:

1 The pyjamas pictured above were the pyjamas that Madeleine wore on holiday

2 They were different from Amelie’s pyjamas

3 Kate McCann washed Madeleine’s pyjamas on the morning of Thursday 3 May, according to her book

4 She (or someone else) then took a photo of Madeleine’s pyjamas, in their apartment

5 That photo was handed to Leicestershire Police by the McCanns (or someone else on their behalf) on or about 8 May

6 The photo was published in many print and TV media on or after 9 May. It was understood to be a ‘stock’ or police photo of that style of pyjamas, but in fact was a photo of Madeleine’s ACTUAL pyjamas

7 Around this time, Amelie was given these pjyamas to put on, and exclaimed: “Maddie’s jammies! Where is Maddie?”

8 On 5 June on Crimewatch and again on 7 June at a press conference in Holland, the McCanns held up Madeleine’s actual pyjamas, but pretended they were Amelie’s.

Nigel Moore & Martin Roberts support the above sequence of events with detailed evidence, showing clearly that the pyjamas photographed in their apartment (before Madeleine was reported missing) were exactly the same ones shown to the world on 5 & 7 June, but which were represented by the McCanns to be Amelie’s.

The McCanns’ account of events is that Madeleine was abducted in her pjyamas. If Nigel Moore & Dr Martin Roberts are correct, her pyjamas were not abducted, and so neither was Madeleine.

THEREFORE any claims by the Smiths that they saw Madeleine in her pyjamas, being carried by Gerry McCann (or anyone else) are clearly false. There are only two reasons therefore to explain the Smiths’ evidence:

A By an amazing coincidence, they saw SOMEONE ELSE carrying ANOTHER CHILD, also dressed in white/pinkish pyjamas, across the streets of Praia da Luz at 10pm on 3 May, whose descriptions matched almost exactly those by Jane Tanner of Tannerman, and by Nuno Lourenco of Wojchiech Krokowski, or

B They fabricated their accounts.

The original articles can be viewed at:

Nigel Moore & Dr Martin Roberts, ‘Washed Up’, 5 January 2011:

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or

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or

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or

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Dr Martin Roberts, ‘A Nightwear Job’, 9 March 2016:

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or

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or

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Surely, now, those who have up to now believed that the Smiths really did see Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine across the streets of Praia da Luz. just as his wife and friend were raising the alarm, must give up – and abandon their mistaken belief?

I will add a poll.

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I disagree, I believe that the Smith contingent did see Gerry McCann carrying off his daughters body. It was McCann walking briskly downhill carrying Maddie in his arms. There is no proof that Maddies pink pyjamas had already been removed from her body at the time she was taken out of the apartment. The pyjamas in question were not physically produced live at any stage until much later on after the day she apparently went missing, only a photograph. For that / this not to be true it would mean that Maddie was naked when she left, or was taken out of the apartment on the very last occasion. I for one don't believe any would be abductor would take a naked child in his arms and walk about in the street at that time of night. Lets be frank about this, Maddie was not taken from the family apartment naked, her body was clothed in her pink pyjamas. I am not so much interested in Jane Tanners account because I think it was just a smoke screen that she introduced to try and help the parents get themselves out of a difficult situation. But the Smith family sighting has a ring of truth about it. In that example, the child that the man was carrying was wearing pink coloured pyjamas, and so the timing of this sighting and the direction from which the person was coming from, and going to, fits in snugly with the very strong possibility that it was Gerry McCann who the Smiths saw. Contrary to popular belief, Gerry McCann was not still back at the tapas bar at 10pm, he had in fact returned to apartment 5A at about 9.30pm because he had just learned that Russell O'Brien had been inside the McCann Apartment claiming that he had listened at the children's open bedroom door and that the children were all sound a sleep. This happened minutes before 9.30pm..

Note also, that at the time of the alleged 9pm check, that both Gerry McCann and Russell O'Brien left the tapas bar together to do a check on their respective apartments. With this in mind, why was Russel O'Brien still away from the taps bar as late as just before 9.30pm, if he left at 9pm to do his own check on his own apartment? Why do a check just before 9.30pm of the McCann Apartment on his way back from his own check of his own apartment, when he knew that Gerry McCann had recently checked it from 9pm onwards?

Gerry McCann returned back to his apartment after 9.30pm (Prior to Kate going at 10pm), because he knew that he had not left the children's bedroom door fully open after his 9pm check..

This course of action was a cause for concern to Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner, which caused O'Brien and Oldfield to leave the tapas bar a few minutes after Gerry McCann had left, and go to apartment 5A..

Jane Tanner followed minutes later because Gerry, Russell and Mathew had not returned and had been gone a long time. This is when I believe that Jane Tanner left the tapas bar and saw Gerry McCann in the street talking to Jez Wilkes...

by Mike Tesko 11.02.19 12:09

At this time, after 9.30pm, or thereabouts, the following people were absent from the tapas bar restaurant together:-

Gerry McCann
Russell O'Brien
Mathew Oldfield
Jane Tanner

Since Gerry had not returned to the tapas bar by around 10pm, Kate decided to go to her apartment to find out what the problem (if any) was. When she got there I believe that Jane Tanner was already present along with Mathew Oldfield. Gerry McCann had already left the apartment carrying off Maddie clutched close to his body, in good time to enable him to arrive down the hill in the street where the Smith Contingent saw him. Kate went back to the tapas bar to raise the pre-arranged alarm that 'they've taken her, they've taken her, Maddie is gone' - she was of course referring to her belief at that time that Gerry and one of the others had taken Maddies body out of the apartment...

The so called timings of the checks made by the families every 30 minutes or so, was introduced deliberately so that no-one would think that any of them could have had any time to be involved in Maddies disappearance. They did this by altering the time frame of the checks made by one and all of their respective apartments, and in the case of Russell O'Brien/ Mathew Oldfield it was postulated that they had done a check of the McCann Apartment in addition to their own, after 9.30pm, and discounted altogether the earlier visit to the McCann apartment by Russel O'Brien...

With this in mind, Jane Tanner could not have seen Gerry McCann standing in the street talking to Jez Wilkes shortly after his 9pm check, if such a sighting had occurred it could only have happened after 9.30pm, when McCann left the tapas bar..

by **sharonl** 11.02.19 18:49

With cadaver odour already developing as Madeleine must have been dead for some time.

Why were they checking the apartment?
Were they really leaving the kids alone knowing that they had already lost one?
Didn't those checking 5a notice the smell?
Does the smith family have a problem with their noses?
What about the blood that was lost? Didn't the Smiths notice any staining to Madeleine's hair or clothing?
If this as Gerry & Madeleine, why didn't he take a more sensible route or wait until the early hours and sound the alarm the following day?

by Mike Tesko 11.02.19 20:02

20:04:32

sharonl wrote:With cadaver odour already developing as Madeleine must have been dead for some time. (Mike's response) - Easily overcome, simply put the cadaver inside an air tight plastic bag, such as a large black bin bag

Why were they checking the apartment? (Mike's response) - the others were genuinely checking their apartments, but the McCanns were planning to run the matter into the wee small hours, until Russell O'Brien went and upset the applecart by entering the McCann apartment just before 9.30pm, and upset Gerry McCann about the thought that O'Brien might have stumbled on the fact that Maddie wasn't sleeping in her bed, but was probably concealed behind the sofa, in a sealed bag, or worse still inside the wardrobe in the parents bedroom...

Were they really leaving the kids alone knowing that they had already lost one? (Mike's response) - Well, if we go by the official explanation that is precisely what Kate McCann says she did when she fled back to the tapas bar after discovering that Maddie had been supposedly abducted! She had lost one child, and what does she do, she runs off back to the tapas bar where she must have been when the imaginary abductor had taken Maddie, and left her other two younger siblings at peril of the same fate which had just befell Madeleine!

Didn't those checking 5a notice the smell? (Mike's response) - not if the McCann's had put Maddie's body in a large bin bag and tied a knot in it to make it airtight..

Does the smith family have a problem with their noses? (Mike's response) - McCann did not linger close enough to the Smith contingent when passing them in the street, there is no evidence that someone carrying a cadaver who had already been dead less than 24 hours beforehand would create the effect that you are suggesting in such a fleeting confrontation. Furthermore, how do we know whether or not the McCanns kept the cadaver of Maddie inside the fridge freezer overnight and throughout the day so that there was very little if any opportunity for a cadaveric odour to be instantly detectable to other humans, in the same way, and to the same extent as a cadaver dog whose sensory perceptions are far more finely tuned than a mere human?

What about the blood that was lost? (Mike's response) - any seepage of blood would be confined to the inside of the plastic bag her body had been sealed in..

Didn't the Smiths notice any staining to Madeleine's hair or clothing? (Mike's response) - the street lighting in the vicinity where the recognition took place, was not suitable for the purpose of anticipating that as the man carrying the child and the Smith's passed one another in such a fleeting glance moment that the quality of recognition occurred, or could occur in near perfect conditions!

If this was Gerry & Madeleine, why didn't he take a more sensible route or wait until the early hours and sound the alarm the following day? (Mike's response) - Well, that's easy to answer - the uninvited checking of apartment 5A by Russell O'Brien just before 9.30pm put the cat amongst the pigeons. Once McCann arrived back at apartment 5A after 9.30am, he obviously did the only thing that was open to him to be able to do in those circumstances, he gathered up Maddie's remains and temporarily hid then in the bushes and shrubbery of apartment 5A's front garden. I think his hand was forced because from his vantage point on the patio verandah he had a birds eye view and could see that Russell O'Brien and Mathew Oldfield were leaving the tapas bar and heading towards apartment 5A for some sort of a confrontation. Hence, why McCann had the guile to quickly conceal Maddies remains amongst the shrubbery and bushes beneath the patio. Thereupon, once O'Brien and Oldfield arrived at apartment 5A intent on confronting McCann about his lousy attitude concerning how he had reacted to O'Briens intrusion into the McCann apartment and carrying out a check on the McCann parents behalf! However, McCann diffused the situation by becoming angry that Madeleine was no longer to be found inside apartment 5A, she had gone missing, and there was reason to believe that McCann accused O'Brien of having something to do with Maddie's disappearance! At this juncture Oldfield and O'Brien chose to bite their tongues and dashed out into the surrounding neighbourhood looking for Madeleine? This served to provide McCann with the opportunity of picking up Maddie's body from amongst the shrubs and making off in the opposite direction to that enjoyed by O'Brien and Oldfield had gone in, carrying Maddie's body in his arms. This then enabled McCann to be the person that was seen by the Smith's at about 10pm..

by Mike Tesko 12.02.19 6:47

Maddie died in apartment 5A from head / neck injuries sustained during a fall off the back of a sofa in the lounge. At the time of the accident both parents were absent from the apartment and had left all three of their youngsters unsupervised and unprotected. When Kate returned to the apartment alone on the night of 2nd / 3rd May 2007, she discovered Madeleine with a bloody nose and complaining of head and neck pain. She put Madeleine to bed, and Kate slept in the spare bed in the children's bedroom. Later on when Gerry rolled in, he got into his bed and slept the remainder of the night alone.

Maddie was discovered to have died by breakfast time, and this was the first occasion he knew anything at all about an accident that Madeleine must have had. It suddenly dawned on both parents that they could be charged with neglect and negligence, that both could lose their jobs, that they might lose custody of their other two siblings, and go to jail..

SMITHMAN 10: Is this absolute, 100% proof that the Smiths did not see Gerry McCann carrying away Madeleine at around 10pm on Thursday, 3 May, 2007?

I've viewed Rich Hall's 4-minute clip about Maddie's pyjamas. After doing so....