The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by dottyaussie 16.06.16 15:10
HiDeHo I think you could be right about it being Oldfield because Carole Tranmer said in her statement she saw 'person' around 5.30 pm. In the CCTV he arrives around 17.38 pm.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by kaz 16.06.16 15:23
I've not yet read a realistic reason why Mrs Fenn would be coerced into making a statement about a crying incident. IF she had been 'persuaded' , why would she have the crying incident continuing for 90 minutes? This was counterproductive for the McCanns , making them appear even more negligent than at first thought ............and liars. IF she was coerced by Mitchell surely the crying incident could have lasted fifteen minutes at the most to accommodate the McCanns 'regular checking.' Why would Mitchell purposely discredit the McCanns' words ?
Another strange thing: Why would Gerry McCann say to Mrs. Fenn, ' a child has been abducted' ( or words to that effect ) when she enquired as to what the commotion was ? My guess is that he already knew that Mrs Fenn had a pretty dim view of him and his wife regarding their behaviour and was apprehensive about her reaction should she have known immediately that it was their child that had disappeared.
Another strange thing: Why would Gerry McCann say to Mrs. Fenn, ' a child has been abducted' ( or words to that effect ) when she enquired as to what the commotion was ? My guess is that he already knew that Mrs Fenn had a pretty dim view of him and his wife regarding their behaviour and was apprehensive about her reaction should she have known immediately that it was their child that had disappeared.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Verdi 16.06.16 16:48
The information contained in the flood of news reports prior to Pamela Fenn's formal interview with the PJ, must have originated from a central source as the wording is very similar in each article. It doesn't read to me like an authoritative source because it lacks precision, which leads me back to question who organised this formal interview and why. The press reports imply that the claimed fresh round of witness interviews was a result of a new focus being put on burglaries in and around the Ocean Club, around the time of Madeleine's disappearance, not resulting from preliminary forensic reports following the dogs interaction + as I said recently, Mrs Fenn had nothing new to offer, only the same information she had allegedly reported previously. Relevant extracts here..
The Sun - 18th August 2007
Meanwhile Portuguese cops were again under fire. The woman living in the apartment above the McCanns claimed she had not been spoken to by police until the British team arrived two weeks ago.
Expat Pamela Fenn, 73, told them she disturbed a burglar at her apartment about three weeks before Maddie vanished. She is now to give a formal statement to Portuguese officers.
A friend said: "She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her before."
The Daily Mirror - 18th August 2007
In a new development, a British expat has come forward with dramatic new evidence.
Pamela Fenn said a man broke into her flat above the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, on the Algarve, just weeks before Madeleine disappeared.
She reported the incident to Portuguese police but they did not question her again.
The information only resurfaced after British police reviewed the case two weeks ago. Mrs Fenn will now be formally interviewed for the first time on Monday.
Daily Express - 18th August 2007
A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.
Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry.
Daily Mail 19th August 2007
The under-fire Portuguese police are preparing to take a fresh look at reports of two earlier break-ins in the apartment block where Madeleine McCann and her family stayed.
The Telegraph - 20th August 2007 [I've included this bit for interest value]
Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are following a new line of inquiry which could see them carry out a series of searches in the next 48 hours.
The developments mark the first departure from investigations centred on Robert Murat, the only formal suspect in the case, who has been ruled out and will be cleared of his "arguido" status within weeks.
Daily Express - 23rd August 2007
THE agonising moment when Madeleine McCann's parents realised she was missing was revealed last night by a fresh witness.
Expatriate Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives in the flat above where the McCanns were staying, was re-interviewed by detectives on Monday after it emerged that she might have fresh clues.
Widow Mrs Fenn told police that two nights before Madeleine went missing she heard a little girl in the apartment crying for over an hour.
She said the toddler, who is believed to have been Madeleine, was crying "Daddy, daddy" constantly between 10.30 and 11.45pm.
The crying had stopped when the parents returned to the apartment.
[and this is where it gets really interesting]..
On the night Madeleine disappeared, Mrs Fenn also heard a child crying, but it was when Kate returned from a nearby restaurant to check on her daughter that she was first aware something was wrong.
A source close to Mrs Fenn said: "She often sits on the balcony at night and heard a commotion downstairs.
----------
I have never read anything emanating from an official/reliable source to suggest that Pamela Fenn was requested by the PJ to attend a formal interview - if anyone can provide this information it would be extremely helpful. Without any indication to prove the contrary, it appears to me that Mrs Fenn's services were volunteered by an unknown entity, to be interviewed and primed accordingly. Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries.
The Sun - 18th August 2007
Meanwhile Portuguese cops were again under fire. The woman living in the apartment above the McCanns claimed she had not been spoken to by police until the British team arrived two weeks ago.
Expat Pamela Fenn, 73, told them she disturbed a burglar at her apartment about three weeks before Maddie vanished. She is now to give a formal statement to Portuguese officers.
A friend said: "She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her before."
The Daily Mirror - 18th August 2007
In a new development, a British expat has come forward with dramatic new evidence.
Pamela Fenn said a man broke into her flat above the McCanns' holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, on the Algarve, just weeks before Madeleine disappeared.
She reported the incident to Portuguese police but they did not question her again.
The information only resurfaced after British police reviewed the case two weeks ago. Mrs Fenn will now be formally interviewed for the first time on Monday.
Daily Express - 18th August 2007
A British widow has come forward with new information which could help Portuguese detectives solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance, the Daily Express can reveal.
Ex-pat Pamela Fenn, who is in her 70’s, has told police she has three "bombshell" clues she believes could be vital to the inquiry.
Daily Mail 19th August 2007
The under-fire Portuguese police are preparing to take a fresh look at reports of two earlier break-ins in the apartment block where Madeleine McCann and her family stayed.
The Telegraph - 20th August 2007 [I've included this bit for interest value]
Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are following a new line of inquiry which could see them carry out a series of searches in the next 48 hours.
The developments mark the first departure from investigations centred on Robert Murat, the only formal suspect in the case, who has been ruled out and will be cleared of his "arguido" status within weeks.
Daily Express - 23rd August 2007
THE agonising moment when Madeleine McCann's parents realised she was missing was revealed last night by a fresh witness.
Expatriate Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives in the flat above where the McCanns were staying, was re-interviewed by detectives on Monday after it emerged that she might have fresh clues.
Widow Mrs Fenn told police that two nights before Madeleine went missing she heard a little girl in the apartment crying for over an hour.
She said the toddler, who is believed to have been Madeleine, was crying "Daddy, daddy" constantly between 10.30 and 11.45pm.
The crying had stopped when the parents returned to the apartment.
[and this is where it gets really interesting]..
On the night Madeleine disappeared, Mrs Fenn also heard a child crying, but it was when Kate returned from a nearby restaurant to check on her daughter that she was first aware something was wrong.
A source close to Mrs Fenn said: "She often sits on the balcony at night and heard a commotion downstairs.
----------
I have never read anything emanating from an official/reliable source to suggest that Pamela Fenn was requested by the PJ to attend a formal interview - if anyone can provide this information it would be extremely helpful. Without any indication to prove the contrary, it appears to me that Mrs Fenn's services were volunteered by an unknown entity, to be interviewed and primed accordingly. Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by pennylane 16.06.16 17:22
kaz wrote:I've not yet read a realistic reason why Mrs Fenn would be coerced into making a statement about a crying incident. IF she had been 'persuaded' , why would she have the crying incident continuing for 90 minutes? This was counterproductive for the McCanns , making them appear even more negligent than at first thought ............and liars. IF she was coerced by Mitchell surely the crying incident could have lasted fifteen minutes at the most to accommodate the McCanns 'regular checking.' Why would Mitchell purposely discredit the McCanns' words ?
Another strange thing: Why would Gerry McCann say to Mrs. Fenn, ' a child has been abducted' ( or words to that effect ) when she enquired as to what the commotion was ? My guess is that he already knew that Mrs Fenn had a pretty dim view of him and his wife regarding their behaviour and was apprehensive about her reaction should she have known immediately that it was their child that had disappeared.
Good post
The drs McCann held Mrs Fenn in complete disdain, and they made that abundantly clear!
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by HiDeHo 16.06.16 17:39
Interesting to note that on May 5th Kate wanted to bring the crying to the attention of the liason officers...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Thanks to jinvta for pointing out these two statements that confirm it was the TWINS that were 'apparently' crying, which was the same on their May 4th statement.
Gerry changed it to Sean and Madeleine on his May 10th statement.
One year later Rachael, Fiona and Jane claim it was Sean and Madeleine in their rogatory interviews.
Why would they change from the TWINS on May 4th to Sean and Madeleine on May 10th?
The statements also show their concern to the officers with sedatives being used to facilitate the 'abduction'.
Did they describe the crying incident Wednesday night to
1) Deflect and confuse from the crying on Tuesday night? (They knew it happened but did not know it was heard by Mrs Fenn until later)
2) Gave an indication that the 'abductor' was possibly watching them and disturbed them the night before?
3) Placed Madeleine alive on Thursday?
4) Use the suggestion of the sedatives to cover themselves if the twins were tested?
Witness Statements UK Police Liaison Officers
Quote:
[size=18]Statement by: Stephen Markley
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described tothe Portuguese investigators?
My reply to the question was: No.
However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.
One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine’s revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.[/size]
Quote:
[size=18]Statement by Jim McGarvey
Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during various contacts that could raise any suspicion that they could have had any knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described tothe Portuguese investigators.
My reply to the question: No.
In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine’s abduction.[/size]
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by HiDeHo 16.06.16 20:17
Verdi wrote:The information contained in the flood of news reports prior to Pamela Fenn's formal interview with the PJ, must have originated from a central source as the wording is very similar in each article. It doesn't read to me like an authoritative source because it lacks precision, which leads me back to question who organised this formal interview and why. The press reports imply that the claimed fresh round of witness interviews was a result of a new focus being put on burglaries in and around the Ocean Club, around the time of Madeleine's disappearance, not resulting from preliminary forensic reports following the dogs interaction + as I said recently, Mrs Fenn had nothing new to offer, only the same information she had allegedly reported previously. Relevant extracts here..
(snipped)
I have never read anything emanating from an official/reliable source to suggest that Pamela Fenn was requested by the PJ to attend a formal interview - if anyone can provide this information it would be extremely helpful. Without any indication to prove the contrary, it appears to me that Mrs Fenn's services were volunteered by an unknown entity, to be interviewed and primed accordingly. Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries.
I have focused on the 'crying'. I cannot comment on the intruder issues.
I have seen nothing regarding the crying that would lead me to believe it was anything other than what one would expect in the investigation...
Not having any initial statement (informal) listed is 'normal' regardless of what date it may/may not have occurred. 400+ neighbours were approached and 'interviewed' and not one of those has shown to be in the files..
Many of the initial statements from that night are not available to us and are held in the MANY missing pages from the files...
| DVD location: "Outros Apensos"File: "Relatorio de analise dos primeiros 11 volumes" |
| Missing pages from detailed activity analysis reports |
| 1 - Anexo 17: Analysis of first round of witness statements Time period 17:30 to 19:59 on 3 May 2007 2 - Anexo 19: Analysis of first round of witness statements Time period 21:00 to 21:59 on 3 May 2007 3 - Anexo 30: Analysis of second round of witness statements Time period 21:00 to 21:59 on 3 May 2007 |
Although I dont rely on media to be correct, one can see that the Portugese media seemed to be reporting the details which we subsequently found to be true in the files..as David Pilditch suggested at the Leveson Inquiry
From those reports in the media, it has been suggested that when the dogs were brought in, they approached Mrs Fenn's apartment and from that point chose to call her in for an official statement. Nothing confirmed, but this suggestion did appear to be correct as Mrs Fenn was interviewed on August 20th at the time when the investigation had turned towards the parents and further information needed... Whether others were interviewed as suggested I don't know...
The Portuguese press appeared to know the details and reported on August 18th.
David Pilditch was in PdL and may have got the info from the journalists or it could very well have been a genuine friend of Mrs Fenn's that he spoke to on 17th...
If...as suggested TM was behind all this and Mrs Fenn didnt hear the crying and it was set up prior to August 18th then I have to ask why this is such a major issue.
Why is there a decision to suggest Mrs Fenn was lying?
We know TM are capable of going to all lengths... to add this example to the mix at the expense of Mrs Fenn, doesn't appear to me to achieve anything...
Many may not agree with me but I prefer to keep Mrs Fenn's statement as genuine and though a theory can be put together to fit that scenario, its not what I can see and I cannot see, even if correct....what it would accomplish...
I see no reason to discredit her at the expense of trying to prove she lied and TM 'interfering' with the investigation..which we know they do all the time...
What is the point? (I will try to respond to your post Tony)
For now... I would like to post this...for no other reason than I want to...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by worriedmum 16.06.16 20:24
I agree with you HiDeHo. If Mrs Fenn was a 'plant ' then wouldn't she have said something like, ''I did hear crying but I also saw the parents playing with their children, laughing,reading stories, giving them treats crisps and biscuits at bedtime etc etc...
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Richard IV 16.06.16 20:34
Verdi wrote:
Snipped
"Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries."
So is it to the Mcs advantage or not to:-
1. promote the crying episode
2. promote the burglaries
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by sharonl 16.06.16 20:41
Richard IV wrote:Verdisnipped .. wrote: "Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries."
So is it to the Mcs advantage or not to:-
1. promote the crying episode
2. promote the burglaries
Yes I believe that it is to the McCanns advantage.
The crying incident, Smith sighting etc. led the PJ to believe that Madeleine was alive on May 3rd 2007 and therefore diverted their attention away from the McCanns movements earlier that week when many of us now believe that Madeleine died.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Richard IV 16.06.16 20:51
I find it hard to believe that Mrs. Fenn hearing crying for 90 mins on Tuesday 1st May would have been to the McCanns advantage. OK it may have proved MBM alive on Tuesday night but detrimental to the McCanns so called 30 minute checks. The burglaries, yes, I agree with you.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by biker_don 16.06.16 21:07
Maybe when they gave their timelines a bit more thought they realised there was no opportunity for an abduction to take place. Didn't PeterMac narrow it down to something like 3 minutes until DCI Redwood eliminated Tannerman which increased the timeframe? Maybe they needed the 75 mins gap to allow for an abduction and that being thought more negligent than originally believed was better for them?
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Julie 16.06.16 21:22
So is it plausable for one to think that the crying DID happen on 1st May (personally this is when I believe 'it' happened, whatever 'it' was), and that was the reason Kate brought up the 'why didn't you come when ... was crying' thing: as justification incase anyone heard..? Forgive me if I seem ignorant I'm new here and still not yet had chance to read through te threads in depth
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by pennylane 16.06.16 21:34
HiDeHo wrote:Verdi wrote:The information contained in the flood of news reports prior to Pamela Fenn's formal interview with the PJ, must have originated from a central source as the wording is very similar in each article. It doesn't read to me like an authoritative source because it lacks precision, which leads me back to question who organised this formal interview and why. The press reports imply that the claimed fresh round of witness interviews was a result of a new focus being put on burglaries in and around the Ocean Club, around the time of Madeleine's disappearance, not resulting from preliminary forensic reports following the dogs interaction + as I said recently, Mrs Fenn had nothing new to offer, only the same information she had allegedly reported previously. Relevant extracts here..
(snipped)
I have never read anything emanating from an official/reliable source to suggest that Pamela Fenn was requested by the PJ to attend a formal interview - if anyone can provide this information it would be extremely helpful. Without any indication to prove the contrary, it appears to me that Mrs Fenn's services were volunteered by an unknown entity, to be interviewed and primed accordingly. Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries.
I have focused on the 'crying'. I cannot comment on the intruder issues.
I have seen nothing regarding the crying that would lead me to believe it was anything other than what one would expect in the investigation...
Not having any initial statement (informal) listed is 'normal' regardless of what date it may/may not have occurred. 400+ neighbours were approached and 'interviewed' and not one of those has shown to be in the files..
Many of the initial statements from that night are not available to us and are held in the MANY missing pages from the files...
DVD location: "Outros Apensos"File: "Relatorio de analise dos primeiros 11 volumes" Missing pages from detailed activity analysis reports 1 - Anexo 17:
Analysis of first round of witness statements
Time period 17:30 to 19:59 on 3 May 2007
2 - Anexo 19:
Analysis of first round of witness statements
Time period 21:00 to 21:59 on 3 May 2007
3 - Anexo 30:
Analysis of second round of witness statements
Time period 21:00 to 21:59 on 3 May 2007
Although I dont rely on media to be correct, one can see that the Portugese media seemed to be reporting the details which we subsequently found to be true in the files..as David Pilditch suggested at the Leveson Inquiry
From those reports in the media, it has been suggested that when the dogs were brought in, they approached Mrs Fenn's apartment and from that point chose to call her in for an official statement. Nothing confirmed, but this suggestion did appear to be correct as Mrs Fenn was interviewed on August 20th at the time when the investigation had turned towards the parents and further information needed... Whether others were interviewed as suggested I don't know...
The Portuguese press appeared to know the details and reported on August 18th.
David Pilditch was in PdL and may have got the info from the journalists or it could very well have been a genuine friend of Mrs Fenn's that he spoke to on 17th...
If...as suggested TM was behind all this and Mrs Fenn didnt hear the crying and it was set up prior to August 18th then I have to ask why this is such a major issue.
Why is there a decision to suggest Mrs Fenn was lying?
We know TM are capable of going to all lengths... to add this example to the mix at the expense of Mrs Fenn, doesn't appear to me to achieve anything...
Many may not agree with me but I prefer to keep Mrs Fenn's statement as genuine and though a theory can be put together to fit that scenario, its not what I can see and I cannot see, even if correct....what it would accomplish...
I see no reason to discredit her at the expense of trying to prove she lied and TM 'interfering' with the investigation..which we know they do all the time...
What is the point? (I will try to respond to your post Tony)
For now... I would like to post this...for no other reason than I want to...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
'Many may not agree with me but I prefer to keep Mrs Fenn's statement as genuine and though a theory can be put together to fit that scenario, its not what I can see and I cannot see, even if correct....what it would accomplish...
I see no reason to discredit her at the expense of trying to prove she lied and TM 'interfering' with the investigation..which we know they do all the time...'
Spot on HiDeHo.
The Drs McCann started in immediately trying to discredit Mrs Fenn! That's what they wanted to do, and Mitchell did his utmost to help them accomplish this aim (imo).
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REPLIES TO HIDEHO PART 2
by Tony Bennett 16.06.16 21:50
REPLIES TO HIDEHO PART 2
My replies in blue
HideHo: Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine’s disappearance. There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door. The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom. Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window. She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped. She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.
REPLY: AS I’ve noted, there are too many versions of this account to trust the above tale. Most relevantly, Mrs Ffenn herself in her statement gives none of these details. Moreover, the claim that Mrs Fenn ‘reported the incident to the police’ is flatly contradicted by other accounts which say the exact opposite.
Mrs Fenn told how she had a niece from Britain staying with her in the week the McCanns were on holiday there. Her niece, who has now been interviewed by detectives in Britain, spotted a suspicious looking man hanging around the McCanns’ apartment around the time Madeleine disappeared. She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns’ holiday friends. Miss Tanner reported seeing the man rushing away from the apartment with a child wrapped in a blanket under his arm. A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.
REPLY: I can’t work out who this alleged ‘second witness’ is. Is it supposed to be ‘Smithman’? If so, when did Smithman ‘rush past the church’? Or is there someone else who was reported to be running past the church? Perhaps another member could help us on this?
The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket.
REPLY: The effect of the above long paragraph is to plant the hypothesis of an abductor very firmly in the reader’s mind. We have:
1 The burglar who leapt from Mrs Fenn’s first floor window
2 Tannerman
3 Bloke seen by Carole Tranmer
4 Bloke seen ‘rushing past the church’
5 ‘Smithman’/bloke seen ‘heading to the sea front’ (if different from (4) above).
And yet there are reasonable grounds for suggesting that all of these five are just ‘phantoms’.
I suggest that this entire paragraph of Pilditch’s report has been given to Pildicth on a plate by a ‘source’.
Mrs Fenn also told police that two nights before Madeleine disappeared she heard a child crying in the McCanns’ apartment. Her screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm until family members returned from a night out. A friend of Mrs Fenn [not Edna Glynn] told The Daily Express last night: "She is an elderly lady who is quite nervous and was very shaken up after the break-in. She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her for information before. Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her to ask her if she saw or heard anything the night Madeleine disappeared.
REPLY: Now I think we are reaching the heart of the matter. Who is this ‘Friend of Mrs Fenn’? Again I do not find it remotely credible that the Portuguese police never visited her in the days after Madeleine was reported missing.
"The first time a police officer spoke to her was when the British officers with sniffer dogs knocked on her door and searched her apartment. [July 31st?]
She told an officer what she knew and now she has been asked to make a formal statement. Portuguese officers have told her they will pick her up at 10am on Monday and drive her to police headquarters in Portimao.
REPLY: I only ask if we have any corroboration of British officers ‘knocking on her door’ and searching her apartment.
"On the night she found an intruder she was sitting at home watching TV when she heard a noise in her bedroom. She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window. She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door. She now thinks the information may prove significant in the investigation.
REPLY: See my comments above. Was this honestly the first time she thought (if she did) that this frightening burglary event might be of interest to the PJ?
"Her niece who lives in England was staying with her when the McCanns were on holiday”.
REPLY: This is flatly contradicted by Carol Tranmer’s own evidence! She says she was staying elsewhere and visited Mrs Fenn on two occasions that week. But on top of that, he entire statement is very doubtful, as discussed elsewhere.
"When details of a suspect were released a few weeks later the niece remembered she had seen a man fitting the description hanging around in the street outside the McCanns’ apartment. He was acting suspiciously and appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.
REPLY: ‘In the street outside?’ I thought he was the man who was closing the gate noiselessly on the other side of the apartment?
"Mrs Fenn says that two nights before Madeleine disappeared one of the children in the apartment was constantly screaming from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm. She was crying out for her dad and nobody answered until somebody returned. She remembers the times because she was talking to a friend back home on the phone
REPLY: Whoa! Wait a minute. In her statement, she says nothing about talking to ‘a friend back home’ (which I take to mean England). Why not? She says nothing about watching the news, either. She merely refers to a ‘Mrs Edna Glyn’. Is this ‘the friend back home’? If so, why does Mrs Glyn allegedly say to her: ‘I am not surprised’? I thought Mrs Glyn lived in Praia da Luz? Or did Mrs Fenn ring a friend back home and Mrs Glyn?
and she was watching the news at 10.30pm. On the night Madeleine disappeared the first she knew of it was when there was a commotion downstairs. She looked over the balcony and saw the child’s mother. She was in a state of panic. She was repeatedly saying ’We’ve let her down. We’ve let her down.’ All the people in their group were running in and out of the apartment. She asked someone if she should call the police and was told it had already been done."
Last night Mrs Fenn refused to reveal details of her evidence. Under Portugal’s strict secrecy laws witnesses are banned from speaking publicly about details of an on-going investigation. But when she answered the door at her apartment yesterday she said: "I will speak to the police on Monday."
Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.
A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have. They are among a number of witnesses who we will talk to next week. They include employees from the Ocean Club."
REPLY: The only words we can be reasonably sure that Mrs Fenn herself said are these: “I will speak to the police on Monday”. I note that two sources are quoted:
1 A Portuguese police source and
2 A police source.
Pilditch began his final paragraph ‘A police source…’, not ‘The source said…’
Police in Portugal are still awaiting the results of forensic tests carried out on two samples of blood found in the McCanns’ holiday apartment.
The source said…
REPLY: So which ‘source’ is this?
1 The Portuguese police source, or
2 The police source, or
3 Another source?
…friends of Madeleine’s parents who were on holiday with them when their daughter disappeared could also be questioned.
The source said: "It is possible the McCanns’ friends will be brought in again but [this] not will not happen before we have received the results of the forensic tests. The results of the blood tests are important but the investigation does not hinge solely on them. The blood is just another clue that could help us in the investigation. If there are four or five major clues that is stronger than just two or three."
Asked why the police had not carried out their weekly update meeting with the McCanns, the couple reportedly asked for urgent showdown talks after reports were leaked to newspapers that police now believe Madeleine is dead. Senior police chiefs later confirmed they are now working on that theory. The source said: "It is not the McCanns who decide when we
meet.
We do that only when there is relevant information to tell them."
REPLY: These comments on the face of it emanate from a Portuguese police source, authorised or unauthorised.
A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing. The Scottish woman said that on the first night of her stay in Portugal, she and a friend returned to the flat to find their belongings and £500 worth of foreign money had been taken. The woman said: “It was in the same block as the one where the little girl was taken from. The police were called that night. They told us that someone with a key had got into the flat. There’s no proof of that, but that was their opinion as there was nothing else disturbed. No broken windows, no forced entry”.
REPLY: Who exactly is the source for the ‘Scottish woman’ and who is she? (I think it might be a Mrs Robertson, based on one report I saw)
FINAL PART 3 TO FOLLOW
My replies in blue
HideHo: Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine’s disappearance. There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door. The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom. Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window. She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped. She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.
REPLY: AS I’ve noted, there are too many versions of this account to trust the above tale. Most relevantly, Mrs Ffenn herself in her statement gives none of these details. Moreover, the claim that Mrs Fenn ‘reported the incident to the police’ is flatly contradicted by other accounts which say the exact opposite.
Mrs Fenn told how she had a niece from Britain staying with her in the week the McCanns were on holiday there. Her niece, who has now been interviewed by detectives in Britain, spotted a suspicious looking man hanging around the McCanns’ apartment around the time Madeleine disappeared. She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns’ holiday friends. Miss Tanner reported seeing the man rushing away from the apartment with a child wrapped in a blanket under his arm. A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.
REPLY: I can’t work out who this alleged ‘second witness’ is. Is it supposed to be ‘Smithman’? If so, when did Smithman ‘rush past the church’? Or is there someone else who was reported to be running past the church? Perhaps another member could help us on this?
The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket.
REPLY: The effect of the above long paragraph is to plant the hypothesis of an abductor very firmly in the reader’s mind. We have:
1 The burglar who leapt from Mrs Fenn’s first floor window
2 Tannerman
3 Bloke seen by Carole Tranmer
4 Bloke seen ‘rushing past the church’
5 ‘Smithman’/bloke seen ‘heading to the sea front’ (if different from (4) above).
And yet there are reasonable grounds for suggesting that all of these five are just ‘phantoms’.
I suggest that this entire paragraph of Pilditch’s report has been given to Pildicth on a plate by a ‘source’.
Mrs Fenn also told police that two nights before Madeleine disappeared she heard a child crying in the McCanns’ apartment. Her screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm until family members returned from a night out. A friend of Mrs Fenn [not Edna Glynn] told The Daily Express last night: "She is an elderly lady who is quite nervous and was very shaken up after the break-in. She was surprised that neither the police nor the McCanns had approached her for information before. Even though she lives in the apartment directly upstairs the police had never tried to get in touch with her to ask her if she saw or heard anything the night Madeleine disappeared.
REPLY: Now I think we are reaching the heart of the matter. Who is this ‘Friend of Mrs Fenn’? Again I do not find it remotely credible that the Portuguese police never visited her in the days after Madeleine was reported missing.
"The first time a police officer spoke to her was when the British officers with sniffer dogs knocked on her door and searched her apartment. [July 31st?]
She told an officer what she knew and now she has been asked to make a formal statement. Portuguese officers have told her they will pick her up at 10am on Monday and drive her to police headquarters in Portimao.
REPLY: I only ask if we have any corroboration of British officers ‘knocking on her door’ and searching her apartment.
"On the night she found an intruder she was sitting at home watching TV when she heard a noise in her bedroom. She went to investigate. The man must have heard her coming and was scrambling out of the window. She just saw the back of his head and arm and she tried to push him out of the window. She was shaking with fear and called the police. There was no sign of a break in and she thought he must have somehow come in through the front door. She now thinks the information may prove significant in the investigation.
REPLY: See my comments above. Was this honestly the first time she thought (if she did) that this frightening burglary event might be of interest to the PJ?
"Her niece who lives in England was staying with her when the McCanns were on holiday”.
REPLY: This is flatly contradicted by Carol Tranmer’s own evidence! She says she was staying elsewhere and visited Mrs Fenn on two occasions that week. But on top of that, he entire statement is very doubtful, as discussed elsewhere.
"When details of a suspect were released a few weeks later the niece remembered she had seen a man fitting the description hanging around in the street outside the McCanns’ apartment. He was acting suspiciously and appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.
REPLY: ‘In the street outside?’ I thought he was the man who was closing the gate noiselessly on the other side of the apartment?
"Mrs Fenn says that two nights before Madeleine disappeared one of the children in the apartment was constantly screaming from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm. She was crying out for her dad and nobody answered until somebody returned. She remembers the times because she was talking to a friend back home on the phone
REPLY: Whoa! Wait a minute. In her statement, she says nothing about talking to ‘a friend back home’ (which I take to mean England). Why not? She says nothing about watching the news, either. She merely refers to a ‘Mrs Edna Glyn’. Is this ‘the friend back home’? If so, why does Mrs Glyn allegedly say to her: ‘I am not surprised’? I thought Mrs Glyn lived in Praia da Luz? Or did Mrs Fenn ring a friend back home and Mrs Glyn?
and she was watching the news at 10.30pm. On the night Madeleine disappeared the first she knew of it was when there was a commotion downstairs. She looked over the balcony and saw the child’s mother. She was in a state of panic. She was repeatedly saying ’We’ve let her down. We’ve let her down.’ All the people in their group were running in and out of the apartment. She asked someone if she should call the police and was told it had already been done."
Last night Mrs Fenn refused to reveal details of her evidence. Under Portugal’s strict secrecy laws witnesses are banned from speaking publicly about details of an on-going investigation. But when she answered the door at her apartment yesterday she said: "I will speak to the police on Monday."
Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.
A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have. They are among a number of witnesses who we will talk to next week. They include employees from the Ocean Club."
REPLY: The only words we can be reasonably sure that Mrs Fenn herself said are these: “I will speak to the police on Monday”. I note that two sources are quoted:
1 A Portuguese police source and
2 A police source.
Pilditch began his final paragraph ‘A police source…’, not ‘The source said…’
Police in Portugal are still awaiting the results of forensic tests carried out on two samples of blood found in the McCanns’ holiday apartment.
The source said…
REPLY: So which ‘source’ is this?
1 The Portuguese police source, or
2 The police source, or
3 Another source?
…friends of Madeleine’s parents who were on holiday with them when their daughter disappeared could also be questioned.
The source said: "It is possible the McCanns’ friends will be brought in again but [this] not will not happen before we have received the results of the forensic tests. The results of the blood tests are important but the investigation does not hinge solely on them. The blood is just another clue that could help us in the investigation. If there are four or five major clues that is stronger than just two or three."
Asked why the police had not carried out their weekly update meeting with the McCanns, the couple reportedly asked for urgent showdown talks after reports were leaked to newspapers that police now believe Madeleine is dead. Senior police chiefs later confirmed they are now working on that theory. The source said: "It is not the McCanns who decide when we
meet.
We do that only when there is relevant information to tell them."
REPLY: These comments on the face of it emanate from a Portuguese police source, authorised or unauthorised.
A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing. The Scottish woman said that on the first night of her stay in Portugal, she and a friend returned to the flat to find their belongings and £500 worth of foreign money had been taken. The woman said: “It was in the same block as the one where the little girl was taken from. The police were called that night. They told us that someone with a key had got into the flat. There’s no proof of that, but that was their opinion as there was nothing else disturbed. No broken windows, no forced entry”.
REPLY: Who exactly is the source for the ‘Scottish woman’ and who is she? (I think it might be a Mrs Robertson, based on one report I saw)
FINAL PART 3 TO FOLLOW
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
Tony Bennett- Researcher
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Google.Gaspar.Statements 16.06.16 22:01
As this is Hob's thread I wonder why she hasn't joined in? 
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REPLY TO HIDEHO PART 3
by Tony Bennett 16.06.16 22:08
REPLY TO HIDEHO PART 3
This is in 3 parts:
A HideHo's summary observations
B My attempt to construct HideHo's chronology of events based on her observations, set out in 14 stages
C My response to HideHo's chronology of events
A HideHo's summary observations
HideHo’s observations
Although a media report, that article gives us lots of information with direct quotes that it seems that Mrs Fenn had spoken to the police when the dogs were brought in (July 31?)
This does not appear to me to be a case of TM contacting and urging Mrs Fenn in the days prior to her statement... She likely told the details to the police before (dates not known)
To summarise my belief (to date)..
Mrs Fenn heard crying and the McCanns knew that (at the very least they had a child crying and needed to pre-empt any discussion on it)
They changed the comment from being the TWINS on 4th and changed to Madeleine and Sean on 11th...Was that because they knew Mrs Fenn had claimed it was a child more than 2 yrs old and possibly closer to 4 years?
Mrs Fenn apparently at some point made claims against the McCanns’ behaviour and said 'out of control' among other comments and it was suggested that these are the comments that she denied and not taken out of context meaning it was ALL rubbish...
It is also very likely that she was informally interviewed at least by the police doing 400 house to house interviews of which none are recorded in the files as far as I know.
Once the dogs were brought in and the focus turned to the McCanns, it appears Mrs Fenn spoke to the police when Eddie and Keela were brought in. At this point she likely made it clear to them about the issues of crying and burglars and she was requested to be formally interviewed on August 20th along with several others including possibly her niece and Ocean Club staff (news reports say it was done in secret on the OC premises).
The McCanns and possibly a UK friend that had supposedly been under surveillance were possibly facing 'charges' and these interviews seem to have been because of this and the new information (We know that Philomena had said that Kate was possibly going to be charged).
This all fits together for me as being logical with no proof of any interference by TM and less likely to be Clarence as he was in London and though keeping in touch with the McCanns had not been formally chosen as their PR man, or had any great input at that point as I cannot see them choosing between Clarence and Phil Hall in September...
BUT we don't know that…it IS possible he had input, but I cannot see how or when...Before the dogs were brought in and police spoke to Mrs Fenn in July?
It’s important to ALWAYS keep in mind theories based on research and I only offer my interpretation of the events as I see it...
I will continue to look at whether Tony's theory fits with anything I see...As mentioned many times I prefer to go with what the files and quotes etc 'tell' me but am always open to change my opinion and admit to making a mistake if I am proved wrong with facts.
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B My attempt to construct HideHo's chronology of events based on her observations, set out in 14 stages
REPLY: This is my attempt, based on all she has said, to reconstruct what HideHo says is the likely chronology of events leading up to the spate of news stories about the crying and burglary incidents on 18 August 2007:
HideHo 1 – Some time in April?
There really was an attempted burglary of Mrs Fenn some time before the McCanns came on holiday. This may or may not have involved Mrs Fenn trying to grab his ankles as he leapt from her first floor window. We do not know if she reported it at the time or not.
HideHo 2 – 1 or 2 May
Mrs Fenn really heard Madeleine (or possibly another child) crying for 75 minutes. This crying incident could have happened on 1 May or 2 May.
HideHo 3 – On or before 3 May
The McCanns knew that Mrs Fenn had heard this and had reported this, so they had to ‘pre-empt’ this crying incident by reporting it themselves on Friday 4 May when first questioned.
HideHo 4 – 4 May or soon afterwards
Mrs Fenn was probably among the 400 or so residents questioned in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine’s reported disappearance. HideHo does not say anything about whether or not it is likely that Mrs Fenn mentioned either the burglary or the crying incident.
HideHo 5 – Between 4 and 10 May
The McCanns may have known about Mrs Fenn having made a statememt before they made their second statements on 10/11 May because they already knew (from wherever) that Mrs Fenn had claimed it was a child more than 2 years old and possibly closer to 4 years
HideHo 6 – Unknown date
Mrs Fenn ‘at some point’ (no details of when) made claims against the McCanns’ behaviour and said [they were] ‘out of control’ among other comments.
HideHo 7 – Approx 31 July to 8 August
The dogs were brought in (?31 July).
HideHo 8 – Any time after 7 August but before say 17 August
Mrs Fenn ‘had spoken’ to police ‘when the dogs were brought in’ (she does not say if the police approached Mrs Fenn or Mrs Fenn approached the police)… “At this point she likely made it clear to them about the issues of crying and burglars…”
HideHo 9 – Between 31 July and say 17 August
The police asked her to make a statement on 20 August. There are indications that the police might have wanted to interview ‘several others at this time including possibly Carol Tranmer and Ocean Club staff’. HideHo says that ‘news reports say it was done in secret on the OC premises’. Hideho says this ties in with reports that ‘The McCanns and possibly a UK friend had supposedly been under surveillance amd were possibly facing ‘charges’… ‘these interviews seem to have been because of this and the new information [from Mrs Fenn]
HideHo 10 – On or before 17 August
Someone gives details to Sol, Daily Express and other newspapers, who publish numerous stories from 18 August to 22 August about the crying and burglary incidents
HideHo 11 – Undated
There is ‘no proof’ of any interference by Team McCann with the press report
HideHo 12 – Undated
Clarence Mitchell was away in London at this time so it would be unlikely for him to have any input into the press reports around 18 August, besides (1) ‘he had not been formally chosen as their PR man’ (2) ‘he had not had any great input at that point’ and (3) ‘I cannot see them choosing between Clarence and Phil Hall in September...’
HideHo 13 – 20 August 2007
Mrs Fenn visits Portimao Police Station and makes formal statement
HideHo 14 – 22 August
On 22 August, when she was interviewed for a TV news bulletin, when she said “It’s all rubbish’, she may have meant that her saying the McCanns were ‘out of control’ were rubbish. She did not mean that the crying and burglary incidents were ‘rubbish’.
C My response to HideHo's chronology of events
My response in brief to HideHo’s theory and chronology
Going one by one through HideHo’s 14 points
1 There was no burglary. It was invented for the purpose of promoting the theory of abduction. The evidence for my hypothesis is: A. No evidence that any burglary was reported at the time B. No information about it until we read about it in the Express before Mrs Fenn makes her statement C. Improbable and contradictory stories about when it happened, what happened, when it was reported etc.
2 I cannot accept Mrs Fenn’s statement as credible (full reasons given on the ‘Fenn’ thread on CMOMM – so there was no ‘crying incident’
3 There was clearly discussion about a crying incident: A. The McCanns discussed it, so they all say, with Fiona and Jane at the dinner table on 3 May B. The McCanns couldn’t wait to tell the police about it on 4 May, even though, by their own account, Madeleine mentioning it was ‘just a passing remark’ C. Robert Murat clearly knew about this as he felt the need to contact a GNR officer about it. He would probably have discussed the alleged crying incident with someone, if not Mrs Fenn directly. The ‘crying incident’ (a) ‘proved’ Madeleine was alive when it happened and (b) proved useful in generating stories about an alleged ‘dummy run’ by a burglar/abductor
4 We basically agree that Mrs Fenn must have been spoken to in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine’s reported disappearance but I maintain that there is no evidence whatsoever that she either (a) mentioned the burglary or (b) mentioned any crying incident. This ‘fact’ may have prompted Murat to make his call to the GNR officer
5 We disagree because I believe the crying incident didn’t happen and was invented
6 Frankly there is no evidence of Mrs Fenn making any comment at any time to anyone about the McCanns being out of control. It only appeared in one newspaper report and was apparently publicly repudiated by her shortly afterwards. Besides, nothing about this appears in her police statement
7 Yes, the dogs were brought in on or about 31 July
8, 9, 10 and 11 We both agree that for newspaper stories to appear in the Express and Sol on 18 August claiming that Mrs Fenn was going to make a police statement, and giving us many details about what she was going to tell them, that A. At some time before 18 August Mrs Fenn probably spoke to police (though this could have been done by an intermediary, and B. someone briefed the newspapers. I think it may have been someone connected to Team McCann. HideHo thinks it was Portuguese Police sources, and she has some evidence in support. I will concede that she has the better evidence on her side on this but it remains an educated guess by both of us
12 The fact that Clarence Mitchell was ‘away in London’ in no way prevents him or a colleague from supplying Sol and the Express with the usual mixture of true and false information
13 We agree
14 I prefer to accept Mrs Fenn’s words on this occasion as true. It was consistent with her having been cajoled or dragooned into making claims about a burglary and a crying incident and then being highly embarrassed about ball she was reported to have said, when speaking to the TV journalist.
ENDS
This is in 3 parts:
A HideHo's summary observations
B My attempt to construct HideHo's chronology of events based on her observations, set out in 14 stages
C My response to HideHo's chronology of events
A HideHo's summary observations
HideHo’s observations
Although a media report, that article gives us lots of information with direct quotes that it seems that Mrs Fenn had spoken to the police when the dogs were brought in (July 31?)
This does not appear to me to be a case of TM contacting and urging Mrs Fenn in the days prior to her statement... She likely told the details to the police before (dates not known)
To summarise my belief (to date)..
Mrs Fenn heard crying and the McCanns knew that (at the very least they had a child crying and needed to pre-empt any discussion on it)
They changed the comment from being the TWINS on 4th and changed to Madeleine and Sean on 11th...Was that because they knew Mrs Fenn had claimed it was a child more than 2 yrs old and possibly closer to 4 years?
Mrs Fenn apparently at some point made claims against the McCanns’ behaviour and said 'out of control' among other comments and it was suggested that these are the comments that she denied and not taken out of context meaning it was ALL rubbish...
It is also very likely that she was informally interviewed at least by the police doing 400 house to house interviews of which none are recorded in the files as far as I know.
Once the dogs were brought in and the focus turned to the McCanns, it appears Mrs Fenn spoke to the police when Eddie and Keela were brought in. At this point she likely made it clear to them about the issues of crying and burglars and she was requested to be formally interviewed on August 20th along with several others including possibly her niece and Ocean Club staff (news reports say it was done in secret on the OC premises).
The McCanns and possibly a UK friend that had supposedly been under surveillance were possibly facing 'charges' and these interviews seem to have been because of this and the new information (We know that Philomena had said that Kate was possibly going to be charged).
This all fits together for me as being logical with no proof of any interference by TM and less likely to be Clarence as he was in London and though keeping in touch with the McCanns had not been formally chosen as their PR man, or had any great input at that point as I cannot see them choosing between Clarence and Phil Hall in September...
BUT we don't know that…it IS possible he had input, but I cannot see how or when...Before the dogs were brought in and police spoke to Mrs Fenn in July?
It’s important to ALWAYS keep in mind theories based on research and I only offer my interpretation of the events as I see it...
I will continue to look at whether Tony's theory fits with anything I see...As mentioned many times I prefer to go with what the files and quotes etc 'tell' me but am always open to change my opinion and admit to making a mistake if I am proved wrong with facts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B My attempt to construct HideHo's chronology of events based on her observations, set out in 14 stages
REPLY: This is my attempt, based on all she has said, to reconstruct what HideHo says is the likely chronology of events leading up to the spate of news stories about the crying and burglary incidents on 18 August 2007:
HideHo 1 – Some time in April?
There really was an attempted burglary of Mrs Fenn some time before the McCanns came on holiday. This may or may not have involved Mrs Fenn trying to grab his ankles as he leapt from her first floor window. We do not know if she reported it at the time or not.
HideHo 2 – 1 or 2 May
Mrs Fenn really heard Madeleine (or possibly another child) crying for 75 minutes. This crying incident could have happened on 1 May or 2 May.
HideHo 3 – On or before 3 May
The McCanns knew that Mrs Fenn had heard this and had reported this, so they had to ‘pre-empt’ this crying incident by reporting it themselves on Friday 4 May when first questioned.
HideHo 4 – 4 May or soon afterwards
Mrs Fenn was probably among the 400 or so residents questioned in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine’s reported disappearance. HideHo does not say anything about whether or not it is likely that Mrs Fenn mentioned either the burglary or the crying incident.
HideHo 5 – Between 4 and 10 May
The McCanns may have known about Mrs Fenn having made a statememt before they made their second statements on 10/11 May because they already knew (from wherever) that Mrs Fenn had claimed it was a child more than 2 years old and possibly closer to 4 years
HideHo 6 – Unknown date
Mrs Fenn ‘at some point’ (no details of when) made claims against the McCanns’ behaviour and said [they were] ‘out of control’ among other comments.
HideHo 7 – Approx 31 July to 8 August
The dogs were brought in (?31 July).
HideHo 8 – Any time after 7 August but before say 17 August
Mrs Fenn ‘had spoken’ to police ‘when the dogs were brought in’ (she does not say if the police approached Mrs Fenn or Mrs Fenn approached the police)… “At this point she likely made it clear to them about the issues of crying and burglars…”
HideHo 9 – Between 31 July and say 17 August
The police asked her to make a statement on 20 August. There are indications that the police might have wanted to interview ‘several others at this time including possibly Carol Tranmer and Ocean Club staff’. HideHo says that ‘news reports say it was done in secret on the OC premises’. Hideho says this ties in with reports that ‘The McCanns and possibly a UK friend had supposedly been under surveillance amd were possibly facing ‘charges’… ‘these interviews seem to have been because of this and the new information [from Mrs Fenn]
HideHo 10 – On or before 17 August
Someone gives details to Sol, Daily Express and other newspapers, who publish numerous stories from 18 August to 22 August about the crying and burglary incidents
HideHo 11 – Undated
There is ‘no proof’ of any interference by Team McCann with the press report
HideHo 12 – Undated
Clarence Mitchell was away in London at this time so it would be unlikely for him to have any input into the press reports around 18 August, besides (1) ‘he had not been formally chosen as their PR man’ (2) ‘he had not had any great input at that point’ and (3) ‘I cannot see them choosing between Clarence and Phil Hall in September...’
HideHo 13 – 20 August 2007
Mrs Fenn visits Portimao Police Station and makes formal statement
HideHo 14 – 22 August
On 22 August, when she was interviewed for a TV news bulletin, when she said “It’s all rubbish’, she may have meant that her saying the McCanns were ‘out of control’ were rubbish. She did not mean that the crying and burglary incidents were ‘rubbish’.
C My response to HideHo's chronology of events
My response in brief to HideHo’s theory and chronology
Going one by one through HideHo’s 14 points
1 There was no burglary. It was invented for the purpose of promoting the theory of abduction. The evidence for my hypothesis is: A. No evidence that any burglary was reported at the time B. No information about it until we read about it in the Express before Mrs Fenn makes her statement C. Improbable and contradictory stories about when it happened, what happened, when it was reported etc.
2 I cannot accept Mrs Fenn’s statement as credible (full reasons given on the ‘Fenn’ thread on CMOMM – so there was no ‘crying incident’
3 There was clearly discussion about a crying incident: A. The McCanns discussed it, so they all say, with Fiona and Jane at the dinner table on 3 May B. The McCanns couldn’t wait to tell the police about it on 4 May, even though, by their own account, Madeleine mentioning it was ‘just a passing remark’ C. Robert Murat clearly knew about this as he felt the need to contact a GNR officer about it. He would probably have discussed the alleged crying incident with someone, if not Mrs Fenn directly. The ‘crying incident’ (a) ‘proved’ Madeleine was alive when it happened and (b) proved useful in generating stories about an alleged ‘dummy run’ by a burglar/abductor
4 We basically agree that Mrs Fenn must have been spoken to in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine’s reported disappearance but I maintain that there is no evidence whatsoever that she either (a) mentioned the burglary or (b) mentioned any crying incident. This ‘fact’ may have prompted Murat to make his call to the GNR officer
5 We disagree because I believe the crying incident didn’t happen and was invented
6 Frankly there is no evidence of Mrs Fenn making any comment at any time to anyone about the McCanns being out of control. It only appeared in one newspaper report and was apparently publicly repudiated by her shortly afterwards. Besides, nothing about this appears in her police statement
7 Yes, the dogs were brought in on or about 31 July
8, 9, 10 and 11 We both agree that for newspaper stories to appear in the Express and Sol on 18 August claiming that Mrs Fenn was going to make a police statement, and giving us many details about what she was going to tell them, that A. At some time before 18 August Mrs Fenn probably spoke to police (though this could have been done by an intermediary, and B. someone briefed the newspapers. I think it may have been someone connected to Team McCann. HideHo thinks it was Portuguese Police sources, and she has some evidence in support. I will concede that she has the better evidence on her side on this but it remains an educated guess by both of us
12 The fact that Clarence Mitchell was ‘away in London’ in no way prevents him or a colleague from supplying Sol and the Express with the usual mixture of true and false information
13 We agree
14 I prefer to accept Mrs Fenn’s words on this occasion as true. It was consistent with her having been cajoled or dragooned into making claims about a burglary and a crying incident and then being highly embarrassed about ball she was reported to have said, when speaking to the TV journalist.
ENDS
____________________
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Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Verdi 16.06.16 23:22
1. Yes !Richard IV wrote:Verdi wrote:
Snipped
"Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries."
So is it to the Mcs advantage or not to:-
1. promote the crying episode
2. promote the burglaries
2. Yes !
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Verdi 16.06.16 23:33
I get the distinct impression that you place a good deal of faith in the words of David Pilditch. The content of his report in the Daily Express dated 18th August 2007, published prior to Pamela Fenn's formal interview with the PJ, was posted up-thread in full exposing it's many contradictions and inaccuracies. Under the circumstances, I find it very hard to understand why you allow this particular journalist to influence your viewpoint.HiDeHo wrote:Verdi wrote:The information contained in the flood of news reports prior to Pamela Fenn's formal interview with the PJ, must have originated from a central source as the wording is very similar in each article. It doesn't read to me like an authoritative source because it lacks precision, which leads me back to question who organised this formal interview and why. The press reports imply that the claimed fresh round of witness interviews was a result of a new focus being put on burglaries in and around the Ocean Club, around the time of Madeleine's disappearance, not resulting from preliminary forensic reports following the dogs interaction + as I said recently, Mrs Fenn had nothing new to offer, only the same information she had allegedly reported previously. Relevant extracts here..
(snipped)
I have never read anything emanating from an official/reliable source to suggest that Pamela Fenn was requested by the PJ to attend a formal interview - if anyone can provide this information it would be extremely helpful. Without any indication to prove the contrary, it appears to me that Mrs Fenn's services were volunteered by an unknown entity, to be interviewed and primed accordingly. Whether or not Mrs Fenn was a willling party to an act of deception, there is no way of telling but there is a strong indication that her formal interview was designed for no other reason but to promote the crying episode/s and the alleged burglaries.
I have focused on the 'crying'. I cannot comment on the intruder issues.
I have seen nothing regarding the crying that would lead me to believe it was anything other than what one would expect in the investigation...
Not having any initial statement (informal) listed is 'normal' regardless of what date it may/may not have occurred. 400+ neighbours were approached and 'interviewed' and not one of those has shown to be in the files..
Many of the initial statements from that night are not available to us and are held in the MANY missing pages from the files...
DVD location: "Outros Apensos"File: "Relatorio de analise dos primeiros 11 volumes" Missing pages from detailed activity analysis reports 1 - Anexo 17:
Analysis of first round of witness statements
Time period 17:30 to 19:59 on 3 May 2007
2 - Anexo 19:
Analysis of first round of witness statements
Time period 21:00 to 21:59 on 3 May 2007
3 - Anexo 30:
Analysis of second round of witness statements
Time period 21:00 to 21:59 on 3 May 2007
Although I dont rely on media to be correct, one can see that the Portugese media seemed to be reporting the details which we subsequently found to be true in the files..as David Pilditch suggested at the Leveson Inquiry
From those reports in the media, it has been suggested that when the dogs were brought in, they approached Mrs Fenn's apartment and from that point chose to call her in for an official statement. Nothing confirmed, but this suggestion did appear to be correct as Mrs Fenn was interviewed on August 20th at the time when the investigation had turned towards the parents and further information needed... Whether others were interviewed as suggested I don't know...
The Portuguese press appeared to know the details and reported on August 18th.
David Pilditch was in PdL and may have got the info from the journalists or it could very well have been a genuine friend of Mrs Fenn's that he spoke to on 17th...
If...as suggested TM was behind all this and Mrs Fenn didnt hear the crying and it was set up prior to August 18th then I have to ask why this is such a major issue.
Why is there a decision to suggest Mrs Fenn was lying?
We know TM are capable of going to all lengths... to add this example to the mix at the expense of Mrs Fenn, doesn't appear to me to achieve anything...
Many may not agree with me but I prefer to keep Mrs Fenn's statement as genuine and though a theory can be put together to fit that scenario, its not what I can see and I cannot see, even if correct....what it would accomplish...
I see no reason to discredit her at the expense of trying to prove she lied and TM 'interfering' with the investigation..which we know they do all the time...
What is the point? (I will try to respond to your post Tony)
For now... I would like to post this...for no other reason than I want to...
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It was also illustrated up-thread how he responded to the Leveson Inquiry under oath where he states..
"I incorporated copy filed by the Press Association and independent news agencies based in Britain and abroad, along with copy filed by colleagues back home..."
and..
"I confirm that all matters in this statement are true and, unless I specify to the contrary are based upon my own knowledge and a review of the relevant documents. Where matters are not within my own knowledge, I state the source and believe the same to be true."
Reading literally, these two bold statements indicate a journalist with integrity with attention to accuracy and detail - though the Daily Express report of 18th August 2007 tells a totally different story. He also stated at some juncture that he is often first up with the news, even before the Portuguese press - how does that fit in with your opinion about the Portuguese press accurately reporting on the case before the PJ files were released? Keeping in mind the Daily Express report.
If you prefer to engage with only Tony on the subject just say the word and I will happily back-off. I don't appear to be making any impact so no harm done.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by plebgate 17.06.16 8:49
@Tony
Yes the texts re. RM & KM are indeed interesting but as you say cannot be linked. So a maybe, yes of course.
Going back to you thinking that Mrs. Fenn only told the police on 20th August,2007. I really cannot think that living above the apartment and having witnessed part of what went on once Mrs. had given the alarm on 3rd May, 2007 that Mrs. Fenn would not have been spoken to by the police at the first opportunity early morning 4th May, 2007.
I do not think we can say that it is unusual for older people to be in bed by 11.00pm. Mrs. Fenn said in her statement of 20th August 2007 that she often stayed up late. Also to take into account is that very many people sleep in the afternoon for several hours and stay up well into the late night,early morning. If Mrs. Fenn stayed up late then why wouldn't her friends?
I said up thread that if Mrs. Fenn did speak and make known to the police on 4th May, 2007 that she had heard prolonged crying from a child then she would not have been able to change that information on 20th August, 2007 and it certainly did not help TM to have that made known imo.
To take into account also is we know from relatives' interviews that Maddie could throw a tantrum and was a cryer who needed a lot of attention so can we really discount Mrs. Fenn's statement?
I haven't read the rest of the thread after your posts to me, but the posts seem to be getting longer and longer so will read through over the next day or so. Will re-join thread if I see something which makes me think that Mrs. Fenn went along with making a false/coerced statement to the police as at the moment we only have maybes.
Yes the texts re. RM & KM are indeed interesting but as you say cannot be linked. So a maybe, yes of course.
Going back to you thinking that Mrs. Fenn only told the police on 20th August,2007. I really cannot think that living above the apartment and having witnessed part of what went on once Mrs. had given the alarm on 3rd May, 2007 that Mrs. Fenn would not have been spoken to by the police at the first opportunity early morning 4th May, 2007.
I do not think we can say that it is unusual for older people to be in bed by 11.00pm. Mrs. Fenn said in her statement of 20th August 2007 that she often stayed up late. Also to take into account is that very many people sleep in the afternoon for several hours and stay up well into the late night,early morning. If Mrs. Fenn stayed up late then why wouldn't her friends?
I said up thread that if Mrs. Fenn did speak and make known to the police on 4th May, 2007 that she had heard prolonged crying from a child then she would not have been able to change that information on 20th August, 2007 and it certainly did not help TM to have that made known imo.
To take into account also is we know from relatives' interviews that Maddie could throw a tantrum and was a cryer who needed a lot of attention so can we really discount Mrs. Fenn's statement?
I haven't read the rest of the thread after your posts to me, but the posts seem to be getting longer and longer so will read through over the next day or so. Will re-join thread if I see something which makes me think that Mrs. Fenn went along with making a false/coerced statement to the police as at the moment we only have maybes.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Tony Bennett 17.06.16 10:10
plebgate wrote:@Tony
Yes the texts re. RM & KM are indeed interesting but as you say cannot be linked. So a maybe, yes of course.
Going back to you thinking that Mrs. Fenn only told the police on 20th August,2007. I really cannot think that living above the apartment and having witnessed part of what went on once Mrs. had given the alarm on 3rd May, 2007 that Mrs. Fenn would not have been spoken to by the police at the first opportunity early morning 4th May, 2007.
REPLY: Hi, I've been very clear all along that I am sure that Mrs Fenn WAS spoken to, along with many others, probably on 4 May, but I am equally clear that there is zero evidence that she mentioned any crying incident or burglary on that occasion - and I think it's pretty clear that even if there was this very dramatic 'tried to grab his ankles' burglary, that she never reported that at the time either (all of this is repeated in my long reply to HideHo, sorry about the length)
I do not think we can say that it is unusual for older people to be in bed by 11.00pm.
REPLY: We'll agree to disagree
...it certainly did not help TM to have that made known imo.
REPLY: It powerfully re-inforced the abduction narrative
...will read through over the next day or so. Will re-join thread if I see something which makes me think that Mrs. Fenn went along with making a false/coerced statement to the police as at the moment we only have maybes.
REPLY: Yes, I think we are into probabilities rather than certainties. However, it is because the issue of whether the crying incident actually happened is so crucial to the understanding of this mystery that I pursue it in such detail
____________________
Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"
Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Doug D 17.06.16 10:32
‘A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.’
I think this is meant to be ‘Smithman’ and the location a bit of journalistic poetic licence. A church is something the readers could identify with rather than ‘past the Edif Prainha Apartments’.
The sighting was nearly on the corner and if you come out of the Rua da Escola Primaria into Rua 25 de April and walk 20 yards you can just see the back end of the church.
……………………………………………
CT:
‘appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.’
In her police statement she says no such thing:
‘We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident.’
To me this does not ring true, you would interrupt if there was something ‘very strange’, not just let it go.
She then gets in a complete muddle about which gate it even was and I am certain that she would not be able to see the Mc’s gate from being seated on the balcony. Even if she stood up and really leaned over it would not be easy as there is a little tiled roof overhang below going half way, covering the steps.
‘I call it an alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person leave.’
From all of her waffle it is 100% clear that it was not the Mc’s apartment at all, but pretty certainly the Oldfield’s.
‘I feel that it was when we returned and were drinking coffee.’ This makes it sometime after 3.30 on the Thursday.
She did not hear something which attracted her attention and made her stand up and look down, she was just ‘inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor’ so this had to be someone going down the steps from the Oldfield apartment, probably MO himself, just making sure he had shut the gate properly.
After spouting a lot of nonsense and (imo because she realizes from what she has said it is clearly not the Mc’s apartment) she then changes her statement to say:
‘I know that I was standing on the veranda when I looked down. I was not looking in this way, I was only snooping to see what was going on below. It was simply a look as follows, for this reason, I was looking below and was not properly'I cannot, I could not see very well'.
Back tracking!
Too little too late CT.
You have already made it quite clear that it was not the Mc's apartment & gate that you were looking at.
‘’he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. scandinavian looking, not short, in a t-shirt’
Again I reckon that fits MO, with his short, close cropped greying, rather than blond, hair, wearing the t-shirt he can be seen in at the Paraiso.
This was the day MO & ROB had been sailing.
From MO’s statements, Grace had an afternoon sleep every day before returning to the crèche. I don’t think we have the crèche records for her group so don’t know what time she was returned or by whom.
ROB: ‘Ella went back to the kids club (signed in by Rachael @ 14.30) and I went out with Matt sailing, I Jane was looking after Evie. Whilst I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had to sail back to save him this made the day quite memorable that and it being the best day weather wise. When we came back Jane was at the beach with the children,’
MO appears at the Paraiso at 17.38, not apparently dripping wet, so presumably had been home to change after sailing, which fits the time slot CT saw someone leaving the Oldfield’s apartment.
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I think this is meant to be ‘Smithman’ and the location a bit of journalistic poetic licence. A church is something the readers could identify with rather than ‘past the Edif Prainha Apartments’.
The sighting was nearly on the corner and if you come out of the Rua da Escola Primaria into Rua 25 de April and walk 20 yards you can just see the back end of the church.
……………………………………………
CT:
‘appeared to be looking into the window of the apartment. She has given a statement to police in Britain.’
In her police statement she says no such thing:
‘We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident.’
To me this does not ring true, you would interrupt if there was something ‘very strange’, not just let it go.
She then gets in a complete muddle about which gate it even was and I am certain that she would not be able to see the Mc’s gate from being seated on the balcony. Even if she stood up and really leaned over it would not be easy as there is a little tiled roof overhang below going half way, covering the steps.
‘I call it an alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person leave.’
From all of her waffle it is 100% clear that it was not the Mc’s apartment at all, but pretty certainly the Oldfield’s.
‘I feel that it was when we returned and were drinking coffee.’ This makes it sometime after 3.30 on the Thursday.
She did not hear something which attracted her attention and made her stand up and look down, she was just ‘inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor’ so this had to be someone going down the steps from the Oldfield apartment, probably MO himself, just making sure he had shut the gate properly.
After spouting a lot of nonsense and (imo because she realizes from what she has said it is clearly not the Mc’s apartment) she then changes her statement to say:
‘I know that I was standing on the veranda when I looked down. I was not looking in this way, I was only snooping to see what was going on below. It was simply a look as follows, for this reason, I was looking below and was not properly'I cannot, I could not see very well'.
Back tracking!
Too little too late CT.
You have already made it quite clear that it was not the Mc's apartment & gate that you were looking at.
‘’he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. scandinavian looking, not short, in a t-shirt’
Again I reckon that fits MO, with his short, close cropped greying, rather than blond, hair, wearing the t-shirt he can be seen in at the Paraiso.
This was the day MO & ROB had been sailing.
From MO’s statements, Grace had an afternoon sleep every day before returning to the crèche. I don’t think we have the crèche records for her group so don’t know what time she was returned or by whom.
ROB: ‘Ella went back to the kids club (signed in by Rachael @ 14.30) and I went out with Matt sailing, I Jane was looking after Evie. Whilst I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had to sail back to save him this made the day quite memorable that and it being the best day weather wise. When we came back Jane was at the beach with the children,’
MO appears at the Paraiso at 17.38, not apparently dripping wet, so presumably had been home to change after sailing, which fits the time slot CT saw someone leaving the Oldfield’s apartment.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by Verdi 17.06.16 13:46
Can't find fault with your summary of Carol Tranmer's witness statement - an enigma in it's own right. I'm still at a loss to understand why she needed to seek the advice of a family member who works at Sandhurst before reporting to the police.
I don't however agree that Matt Oldfield could be the mystery man suspiciously fiddling with the gate whilst furtively looking around him. If Carol Tranmer was on Pamela Fenn's veranda, this would have overlooked the same detail for all the apartments (as pictured above). The stone stairs with gate clearly access the veranda/patio/balcony (call it what you will) to all apartments so if it was Matt Oldfield he must have been entering and/or leaving by the patio door. This would imply that the couple left the patio door unlocked whilst out - his other half couldn't have been in there as she was down at the beach with the rest of the group (minus the McCann family). I don't think that very likely.
I don't however agree that Matt Oldfield could be the mystery man suspiciously fiddling with the gate whilst furtively looking around him. If Carol Tranmer was on Pamela Fenn's veranda, this would have overlooked the same detail for all the apartments (as pictured above). The stone stairs with gate clearly access the veranda/patio/balcony (call it what you will) to all apartments so if it was Matt Oldfield he must have been entering and/or leaving by the patio door. This would imply that the couple left the patio door unlocked whilst out - his other half couldn't have been in there as she was down at the beach with the rest of the group (minus the McCann family). I don't think that very likely.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by HiDeHo 17.06.16 15:22
NOTE: My responses do not include intruder... My interest is with the crying only...hence I separated the crying incident news articles...
August 18th 2007 - Sol
August 18th 2007 - Express
August 19th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
August 20th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
August 20th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
August 23rd 2007 - Express
August 23rd 2007 - Portugal Resident
August 24th 2007 - Correio da Manhã
August 30th 2007 - Express
September 7th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
September 10th 2007 - Correio da Manhã
I have to say a big thank you to EVERYONE for this thread and allowing me to contribute without feeling I'm perceived as trying to negate the enormous amount of research done on this subject. (subjects)
I promise you all that I don't have an agenda that I feel the need to defend. I am open to change my point of view if I feel it goes that way, but if I don't feel something I will continue to search for reasons I may be wrong....which is absolutely possible :)
Unfortunately, I don't have as much time as I would like to focus on and scrutinise every post, but have been trying.
I will, of course, respond to your post Tony and really appreciate your time answering my questions etc.
Verdi... I am getting the impression you feel I am only here to respond to Tony...that is not the case I can only respond with honesty (keeping in mind I may not be correct) to any of your comments. I appreciate you making me second guess myself.
You have opened another 'topic' for me when you ask about David Pilditch and the 'credibility' that I give to him..
I am well aware of some contradictions in the August 18th article but I consider them minor. Maybe gleaned from different sources.
YES! You are correct that I give David Pilditch (and James Murray) maybe more credibility than others and for a reason..
I remember Peter Hill claiming that there was no direct news from Portugal and the only way they had to get the (unfavourable?) news to their readers was 'blaming' the Portuguese press and I have seen this so many times along the way. Using what appears to be a negative article towards 'us' but throwing in information to educate the uk public.
eg 'The poor McCanns accused of hiding their daughters body by a cop Goncalo Amaral that wrote a book 'Truth of the lie'...etc etc...
I have seen it time and time again and often try to point out the 'positive' stuff hidden in news reports that have everyone up in arms...
(We all know that Desmond has a 'score' he likely wants to settle)
I was personally privy to how front page negative press about one of our members, actually gave them the opportunity to guide people to our facebook group and not only helped educate viewers but created an influx of new members that until then hadn't realised the details of the case.
(A lesson to members here to be VERY careful about libel...As mods we can appear to be over strict but it happened to us. Fortunately I save EVERYTHING and was able to show OG the context of the thread and it was recognised as not a threat. How many extra police resources were used at the marathon because the McCanns continued to promote the possibility even though it was a throw away remark?
Sorry I appear to be heading off topic here but I see a big difference between how the Express handle the McCann topics (for the most part) as opposed to the disgusting comments I have seen in the other UK news...
Just recently I have rewatched some of the Leveson videos, Dan Sanderson, Richard Desmond etc and David Pilditch for close to an hour and half...and I DO believe that he made the effort to produce info as close to the truth as possible, although he was not responsible for some of the headlines at didn't always reflect the details in the articles...
Many of the articles had correct info that was later confirmed by the files and probably info that was never addressed in the files as well as incorrect info that had been passed to him...
Call me naive....but recognising the pressure of the scrutiny of Mr Jay at Leveson, I do not place David Pilditch in the same league as some of the journalists from the other UK newspapers...
Look at the recent article by James Murray..
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Here is David Pilditch at Leveson. Others are likely to disagree with me
I found it interesting from approx 1.10.00. Did the police 'lie' about the DNA...or were they (at that time) referring to the first FSS report that appears to have been changed and 'lost'
Back on topic... I look at what are likely credible Portuguese journalist reports and those reports that David Pilditch appears to have used..
Not fact, but worth keeping in mind...
To suggest that Pilditch was 'conned' with the 'friend' interview doesn't seem credible, especially as his source of the Portuguese journos were claiming the same..
I just cant believe he was conned...and if he wasn't then the friend may know that Mrs Fenn was brought in for more questioning after the dogs visited her apartment...
Sorry for the lengthy reply :)
To highlight why I do not ignore articles by Portuguese press..
This visit (and results) has not been recorded in the files (as far as I know) how can it be considered as not credible?
Click on SPOILER to VIEW
August 18th 2007 - Sol
August 18th 2007 - Express
August 19th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
August 20th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
August 20th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
August 23rd 2007 - Express
August 23rd 2007 - Portugal Resident
August 24th 2007 - Correio da Manhã
August 30th 2007 - Express
September 7th 2007 - Journal de Noticias
September 10th 2007 - Correio da Manhã
I have to say a big thank you to EVERYONE for this thread and allowing me to contribute without feeling I'm perceived as trying to negate the enormous amount of research done on this subject. (subjects)
I promise you all that I don't have an agenda that I feel the need to defend. I am open to change my point of view if I feel it goes that way, but if I don't feel something I will continue to search for reasons I may be wrong....which is absolutely possible :)
Unfortunately, I don't have as much time as I would like to focus on and scrutinise every post, but have been trying.
I will, of course, respond to your post Tony and really appreciate your time answering my questions etc.
Verdi... I am getting the impression you feel I am only here to respond to Tony...that is not the case I can only respond with honesty (keeping in mind I may not be correct) to any of your comments. I appreciate you making me second guess myself.
You have opened another 'topic' for me when you ask about David Pilditch and the 'credibility' that I give to him..
I am well aware of some contradictions in the August 18th article but I consider them minor. Maybe gleaned from different sources.
YES! You are correct that I give David Pilditch (and James Murray) maybe more credibility than others and for a reason..
I remember Peter Hill claiming that there was no direct news from Portugal and the only way they had to get the (unfavourable?) news to their readers was 'blaming' the Portuguese press and I have seen this so many times along the way. Using what appears to be a negative article towards 'us' but throwing in information to educate the uk public.
eg 'The poor McCanns accused of hiding their daughters body by a cop Goncalo Amaral that wrote a book 'Truth of the lie'...etc etc...
I have seen it time and time again and often try to point out the 'positive' stuff hidden in news reports that have everyone up in arms...
(We all know that Desmond has a 'score' he likely wants to settle)
I was personally privy to how front page negative press about one of our members, actually gave them the opportunity to guide people to our facebook group and not only helped educate viewers but created an influx of new members that until then hadn't realised the details of the case.
(A lesson to members here to be VERY careful about libel...As mods we can appear to be over strict but it happened to us. Fortunately I save EVERYTHING and was able to show OG the context of the thread and it was recognised as not a threat. How many extra police resources were used at the marathon because the McCanns continued to promote the possibility even though it was a throw away remark?
Sorry I appear to be heading off topic here but I see a big difference between how the Express handle the McCann topics (for the most part) as opposed to the disgusting comments I have seen in the other UK news...
Just recently I have rewatched some of the Leveson videos, Dan Sanderson, Richard Desmond etc and David Pilditch for close to an hour and half...and I DO believe that he made the effort to produce info as close to the truth as possible, although he was not responsible for some of the headlines at didn't always reflect the details in the articles...
Many of the articles had correct info that was later confirmed by the files and probably info that was never addressed in the files as well as incorrect info that had been passed to him...
Call me naive....but recognising the pressure of the scrutiny of Mr Jay at Leveson, I do not place David Pilditch in the same league as some of the journalists from the other UK newspapers...
Look at the recent article by James Murray..
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Here is David Pilditch at Leveson. Others are likely to disagree with me
I found it interesting from approx 1.10.00. Did the police 'lie' about the DNA...or were they (at that time) referring to the first FSS report that appears to have been changed and 'lost'
Back on topic... I look at what are likely credible Portuguese journalist reports and those reports that David Pilditch appears to have used..
Not fact, but worth keeping in mind...
To suggest that Pilditch was 'conned' with the 'friend' interview doesn't seem credible, especially as his source of the Portuguese journos were claiming the same..
I just cant believe he was conned...and if he wasn't then the friend may know that Mrs Fenn was brought in for more questioning after the dogs visited her apartment...
Sorry for the lengthy reply :)
To highlight why I do not ignore articles by Portuguese press..
This visit (and results) has not been recorded in the files (as far as I know) how can it be considered as not credible?
Click on SPOILER to VIEW
- Rebelo visits Apartment 5A:
[color:60a5=000000]Paulo Rebelo examines Apartment 5A on 29 October 2007 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [color:60a5=000000]Paulo Rebelo tries to slide open the window to Maddie's bedroom [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [color:60a5=000000]Paulo Rebelo opens the window to Maddie's bedroom [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [color:60a5=000000]Officers test theories outisde the patio doors [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [color:60a5=000000]An officer attempts to enter the apartment through Maddie's bedroom window
[color:60a5=000000]This series of pictures show Paulo Rebelo examining the patio doors at the rear of Apartment 5A.
These pictures originally appeared in The Sun newspaper on 30/10/07.
Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha made the following report on Rebelo's visit (translated from Portuguese):
Correio da Manha - 30 October 2007
Paulo Rebelo was yesterday for the first time at the apartment where Madeleine disappeared from, in Praia da Luz. The new coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) of Portimao led a team of six investigators who, throughout the afternoon, tested several scenarios and even made a possible reconstruction of what happened on the evening of May 3, in the apartment no. 5A of the Ocean Club.
In the company of the team members that he brought in from Lisbon - composed of two homicide inspectors, one from sexual abuse, another that is experienced in robberies and two specialists in technical analysis - Paulo Rebelo tried to find details and loose ends that may open new leads or confirm the existing ones.
The investigators entered the apartment around 3 p.m. and soon after opened the shutters of the window to the room where Madeleine was sleeping with her siblings on the night she disappeared. Next, they passed a blue blanket through the window, folded like it was covering a child's body.
Paulo Rebelo was even one of the elements of the team who paid most attention to the window, having risen and lowered the shutters several times, apparently evaluating its operation. Moments later, the team turned their attention on the rest of the house, and on the veranda and the garden that is located on the back side of the apartment. Here, the inspectors analysed the height of the bushes and the firmness of the balcony, as the leader of the investigation entered and left the apartment several times. One of the inspectors brought a drum into the house, containing a liquid that was not possible to identify.
Halfway through the afternoon, Paulo Rebelo crossed the street into the direction of the area that gives access to Robert Murat's house, as if he were evaluating the distance between the villa and the apartment. When Correio da Manha asked him what the purpose of that diligence was, he just replied he "was working".
It was 5.45 p.m. when the team left the Ocean Club: Rebelo and one inspector then walked into the direction of the Praia da Luz belvedere - walking past the church - where they stood in observation for approximately five minutes. But they did not walk the fastest path, choosing instead to walk down several pedestrian streets of the village.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by whodunit 17.06.16 17:21
This is the most important information on the entire thread:
"Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.
A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have. "
What is this Portuguese police source really telling us?
1. That Portuguese police had already spoken to Mrs. Fenn and taken her statement, possibly as early as May 4th. [something Tony, myself et al have been insisting upon all along so really any 'debate' over this point is a moot strawman.]
2. That now, in August, the Portuguese police must re-interview Mrs. Fenn because of new evidence they have.
What was this 'new evidence'? Do we have any clues? Why yes.
1. At that moment, thanks to HiDeHo's chronicle of the pertinent news stories we know there was a veritable media blitz attending the statement of this Portuguese police source referring to Mrs. Fenn and the information she was planning to give the police, ie the 'crying incident' and the burglary attempt.
2. The actual statement of Mrs. Fenn in which she spoke of a. the crying incident and b. the burglary attempt [albeit the latter almost as an afterthought.]
So what can we gather from the above facts? That as of August 18 and in spite of the fact that Mrs. Fenn had already been spoken to and had given a statement to the Portuguese police, the 'crying incident' and the burglary attempt was **gasp** brand new information to the Portuguese police.
In other words, when very early on in the investigation Mrs. Fenn was given the opportunity to mention the crying incident and the burglary attempt to the Portuguese police, she declined to do so.
So by applying Occam's razor, what is the simplest explanation for the following:
1. Mrs. Fenn did not mention the crying incident or the burglary attempt until over 3 months later even though early on she was given the opportunity to do so by the Portuguese police.
2. Gave statements to the press, which were quoted and directly attributed to her so there should be no ambiguity here, indicating that her police statements were 'rubbish', urged journalists to 'ignore it', [Is she urging the journalist to a. ignore their own coverage or b. ignore what she told the police? Occam's razor...] and specifically stated that 'she did not even know that family was in there' [does this quote mean to imply that Mrs. Fenn heard a. a crying incident b. the parents behaving violently or c. nothing at all..? Occam's razor..]
Quite simply and logically the facts indicate that in spite of her apparent extreme reluctance to do so, something or someone induced Mrs. Fenn to make a statement to the Portuguese police which seemed to cause her great distress and which she herself called 'rubbish'.
In simple terms, her statement was false. There was no 'crying incident', there was no burglary attempt.
"Last night a Portuguese police source claimed officers had already been given statements by Mrs Fenn and her neice.
A police source said: "We have already spoken to them but they will be re-interviewed because of the new evidence we have. "
What is this Portuguese police source really telling us?
1. That Portuguese police had already spoken to Mrs. Fenn and taken her statement, possibly as early as May 4th. [something Tony, myself et al have been insisting upon all along so really any 'debate' over this point is a moot strawman.]
2. That now, in August, the Portuguese police must re-interview Mrs. Fenn because of new evidence they have.
What was this 'new evidence'? Do we have any clues? Why yes.
1. At that moment, thanks to HiDeHo's chronicle of the pertinent news stories we know there was a veritable media blitz attending the statement of this Portuguese police source referring to Mrs. Fenn and the information she was planning to give the police, ie the 'crying incident' and the burglary attempt.
2. The actual statement of Mrs. Fenn in which she spoke of a. the crying incident and b. the burglary attempt [albeit the latter almost as an afterthought.]
So what can we gather from the above facts? That as of August 18 and in spite of the fact that Mrs. Fenn had already been spoken to and had given a statement to the Portuguese police, the 'crying incident' and the burglary attempt was **gasp** brand new information to the Portuguese police.
In other words, when very early on in the investigation Mrs. Fenn was given the opportunity to mention the crying incident and the burglary attempt to the Portuguese police, she declined to do so.
So by applying Occam's razor, what is the simplest explanation for the following:
1. Mrs. Fenn did not mention the crying incident or the burglary attempt until over 3 months later even though early on she was given the opportunity to do so by the Portuguese police.
2. Gave statements to the press, which were quoted and directly attributed to her so there should be no ambiguity here, indicating that her police statements were 'rubbish', urged journalists to 'ignore it', [Is she urging the journalist to a. ignore their own coverage or b. ignore what she told the police? Occam's razor...] and specifically stated that 'she did not even know that family was in there' [does this quote mean to imply that Mrs. Fenn heard a. a crying incident b. the parents behaving violently or c. nothing at all..? Occam's razor..]
Quite simply and logically the facts indicate that in spite of her apparent extreme reluctance to do so, something or someone induced Mrs. Fenn to make a statement to the Portuguese police which seemed to cause her great distress and which she herself called 'rubbish'.
In simple terms, her statement was false. There was no 'crying incident', there was no burglary attempt.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.
by HiDeHo 17.06.16 18:51
whodunit wrote:
In simple terms, her statement was false. There was no 'crying incident', there was no burglary attempt.
Several things I would like to address, but unfortunately don't have time right now...However...if you are going to claim the above as fact then I would like to see proof...
We don't have any proof only assumptions assumptions and therefore I understand that you believe that (and may be true) but it does not make it a fact..and should not be claimed to be a fact.
A theory...a hypothesis by some, but with no proof it is not a fact.
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Similar topics» How did the alleged abductor snatch Madeleine in a time slot of no more than 3-4 minutes?
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» McCanns will NOT return to Portugal
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» McCanns....crying story or crying wolf?
» LATEST on the 3 libel actions - alleged contempt of court x 1, and alleged libels x 2
» McCanns will NOT return to Portugal
» On it goes...
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