The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Maria wrote:

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:  I know the McCanns/Mitchell influenced alot of people but I honestly don't think Mrs Fenn was one of the statements they influenced. Nothing of what she stated benefitted them. i know they ran with the burglar part but the greatly fabricated it. it's what they do.

All your ifs and buts and maybes doesn't alter the fact that Pamela Fenn said..

'She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.'

Those few pertinent words could indeed be said to benefit the McCanns.

a)  Confirmation of lurkers in the vicinity of the apartment block and during the same period that the McCanns were on holiday.

b)  Laying the ground-work to substantiate the abduction theory.

c)  Creating the birth of the bungled burglary theory which is still running to this very day in the offices of Operation Grange.

e)  Reinforcing any one of the McCanns claims about a crying incident.

It could be said that Pamela Fenn wouldn't have been aware of anything concerning the McCanns when she made her statement in August 2007 but I think it highly unlikely she was in ignorance of all the gory details.  The gossip must have gained momentum like a wild fire.

Ifs buts and maybes doesn't either alter the fact that her statement is real.  
Just because you believe it isnt real doesn't mean I have to.  
I have read as much detail as I could and formed my opinion based on facts, not what was printed in the media, most of which likely came from Mitchell.
My reasons for believing her are valid and until I see proof that she made that statement to help the McCanns I'm sticking with my opinion and will also air it when I want, no ifs and buts about it.

Eh?  I just said that.

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: Ref red highlights - I agree, people woud love to see the forum destroyed and that is why I think posters should be careful calling Mrs, Fenn a liar when there is no absolute proof that she is

These people will twist anything you say in order to misrepresent your meaning - believe me I speak from experience.  Semantics is their speciality, it's what they do best, it matters not what you write, they will turn it around to suit their agenda until it takes on a life of it's own.  Sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

In an attempt to prevent their devious actions influencing chance readers, it's important to me that it's made clear - just because one questions a specific persons statement or any other source of information relating to that person, it does not automatically translate into an accusation of lying.  If any comment implies lying then that is a result of the nature of the information under discussion, in this instance Pamela Fenn. 

It won't make the slightest difference to the element that are hell bent on destroying this forum but it might at least allay innocent on-lookers from being misguided by them - the whole purpose of the elements modus operandi.

I'll leave it at that for the time being - the general discussion seems to be going round in circles.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  No-one can destroy the forum unless they are given ammo. and there certainly has been talk of Mrs. Fenn having lied .

We are going round in circles and that's because no-one can show proof that Mrs. Fenn's statement is not sound.    It's called debate and once all possible avenues of why it may/may not be sound have been explored then it will become repetitive.

I thank Tony for this and all other threads he starts which leads to such interesting debate.  Long may he continue.

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:  I know the McCanns/Mitchell influenced alot of people but I honestly don't think Mrs Fenn was one of the statements they influenced. Nothing of what she stated benefitted them. i know they ran with the burglar part but the greatly fabricated it. it's what they do.

All your ifs and buts and maybes doesn't alter the fact that Pamela Fenn said..

'She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.'

Those few pertinent words could indeed be said to benefit the McCanns.

a)  Confirmation of lurkers in the vicinity of the apartment block and during the same period that the McCanns were on holiday.

b)  Laying the ground-work to substantiate the abduction theory.

c)  Creating the birth of the bungled burglary theory which is still running to this very day in the offices of Operation Grange.

e)  Reinforcing any one of the McCanns claims about a crying incident.

It could be said that Pamela Fenn wouldn't have been aware of anything concerning the McCanns when she made her statement in August 2007 but I think it highly unlikely she was in ignorance of all the gory details.  The gossip must have gained momentum like a wild fire.

@ verdi posted to Maria:

"
All your ifs and buts and maybes doesn't alter the fact that Pamela Fenn said..

'She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.'

I have looked again at Mrs. Fenn's statement and this is what it says:

"
[color:a23f=000000]When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence."

It is of course possible that Mrs. Fenn said this due to the sort of question that was asked and she could have meant that with hindsight (and in response to the question) that the crying coud have been linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.

She doesn't say that was her actual thought at the time of the crying incident.


Maybe this has led to the bungled burglary theory but not intentionally and certainly not to help the McCanns.

My opinion only of course.

Having further thoughts about Mrs. Fenn and being questioned in Court.

I do think the above post is quite possibly what happened.

Mrs. Fenn said that she heard crying for 1hr and fifteen minutes (the 75 minutes is used on forums as quicker to type).

The questioner might have said along the lines of can you think of why she would be crying.

Being put on the spot so to speak Mrs. Fenn might have said well there was an attempted burglary in my flat and the crying could have been linked to another attempted burglary.

That makes sense to me - not to say that is how it panned out of course, but as Hi-de-Ho and Pennylane have said, it was picked up and might have been fed to the newspapers deliberately and voila "a spate of burglaries" was born?

Joana I believe has posted to say that there wasn't a space of burglaries at the time.

Aquila could well be right too, gossip amongst ex-pats with embelishments?

Could someone please point me to a credible reference to the FACT that Mrs Fenn was friends with Jenny Murat ??

Mrs Fenn's statement would place Madeleine alive on the Tuesday evening only. This fits in line with those of us that believe something happened before the Thursday. But Mrs Fenn doesn't actually state as fact or name the child crying as Madeleine.

Also she said the crying was from about 10.30pm till 11.15pm.

Kate McCann's phone pings show that on the same night her phone pinged at 22.16.15 then 7 mins later at 22.23.15 then 1 min 7sec later at 22.24.22 then 1 min 12 later at 22.25.36 then for the last time 2 mins 14sec later at 22.27.50. A total of 11 mins.

Was KM at the Tapas making/receiving these calls/texts. Was she at the apartment or just wandering around the complex ?

plebgate wrote:Having further thoughts about Mrs. Fenn and being questioned in Court.

I do think the above post is quite possibly what happened.

Mrs. Fenn said that she heard crying for 1hr and fifteen minutes (the 75 minutes is used on forums as quicker to type).

The questioner might have said along the lines of can you think of why she would be crying.

Being put on the spot so to speak Mrs. Fenn might have said well there was an attempted burglary in my flat and the crying could have been linked to another attempted burglary.

That makes sense to me - not to say that is how it panned out of course, but as Hi-de-Ho and Pennylane have said, it was picked up and might have been fed to the newspapers deliberately and voila "a spate of burglaries" was born?

Joana I believe has posted to say that there wasn't a space of burglaries at the time.

Aquila could well be right too, gossip amongst ex-pats with embelishments?

Absolutely that's how it works!   When I gave a police statement following a crime, I was asked all sorts of questions to help jog my memory. They try to help you relax, and I recall them saying the smallest detail may be relevant. They then leave a card with a direct number to the detective and say to call if anything else is remembered, or if I have any problems or questions.... I was also offered counseling

dottyaussie wrote:Could someone please point me to a credible reference to the FACT that Mrs Fenn was friends with Jenny Murat ??

Mrs Fenn's statement would place Madeleine alive on the Tuesday evening only. This fits in line with those of us that believe something happened before the Thursday. But Mrs Fenn doesn't actually state as fact or name the child crying as Madeleine.

Also she said the crying was from about 10.30pm till 11.15pm.

Kate McCann's phone pings show that on the same night her phone pinged at 22.16.15 then 7 mins later at 22.23.15 then 1 min 7sec later at 22.24.22 then 1 min 12 later at 22.25.36 then for the last time 2 mins 14sec later at 22.27.50. A total of 11 mins.

Was KM at the Tapas making/receiving these calls/texts. Was she at the apartment or just wandering around the complex ?

I'm sure they know each other very well, but implying they are so close that Mrs Fenn would lie so outrageously is (imo) not proven at all. Some hold the view that Mrs Murat and her son Robert, have such deeply persuasive bonds with their neighbors that both the Smith's and Mrs Fenn would all be willing to completely fabricate information and lie to the police to help pervert justice in a missing toddler case.  No disrespect to anyone who believes this, but I personally think it's ridiculous.

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: Ref red highlights - I agree, people woud love to see the forum destroyed and that is why I think posters should be careful calling Mrs, Fenn a liar when there is no absolute proof that she is

These people will twist anything you say in order to misrepresent your meaning - believe me I speak from experience.  Semantics is their speciality, it's what they do best, it matters not what you write, they will turn it around to suit their agenda until it takes on a life of it's own.  Sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

In an attempt to prevent their devious actions influencing chance readers, it's important to me that it's made clear - just because one questions a specific persons statement or any other source of information relating to that person, it does not automatically translate into an accusation of lying.  If any comment implies lying then that is a result of the nature of the information under discussion, in this instance Pamela Fenn. 

It won't make the slightest difference to the element that are hell bent on destroying this forum but it might at least allay innocent on-lookers from being misguided by them - the whole purpose of the elements modus operandi.

I'll leave it at that for the time being - the general discussion seems to be going round in circles.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  No-one can destroy the forum unless they are given ammo. and there certainly has been talk of Mrs. Fenn having lied .

We are going round in circles and that's because no-one can show proof that Mrs. Fenn's statement is not sound.    It's called debate and once all possible avenues of why it may/may not be sound have been explored then it will become repetitive.

I thank Tony for this and all other threads he starts which leads to such interesting debate.  Long may he continue.

OK - fair enough.

I'm not suggesting that discussion on the subject should end because it's going round in circles - only that I have nothing further to add at the moment.

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:  I know the McCanns/Mitchell influenced alot of people but I honestly don't think Mrs Fenn was one of the statements they influenced. Nothing of what she stated benefitted them. i know they ran with the burglar part but the greatly fabricated it. it's what they do.

All your ifs and buts and maybes doesn't alter the fact that Pamela Fenn said..

'She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.'

Those few pertinent words could indeed be said to benefit the McCanns.

a)  Confirmation of lurkers in the vicinity of the apartment block and during the same period that the McCanns were on holiday.

b)  Laying the ground-work to substantiate the abduction theory.

c)  Creating the birth of the bungled burglary theory which is still running to this very day in the offices of Operation Grange.

e)  Reinforcing any one of the McCanns claims about a crying incident.

It could be said that Pamela Fenn wouldn't have been aware of anything concerning the McCanns when she made her statement in August 2007 but I think it highly unlikely she was in ignorance of all the gory details.  The gossip must have gained momentum like a wild fire.

@ verdi posted to Maria:

"
All your ifs and buts and maybes doesn't alter the fact that Pamela Fenn said..

'She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.'

I have looked again at Mrs. Fenn's statement and this is what it says:

"
[color:1f8f=000000]When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence."

It is of course possible that Mrs. Fenn said this due to the sort of question that was asked and she could have meant that with hindsight (and in response to the question) that the crying coud have been linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.

She doesn't say that was her actual thought at the time of the crying incident.


Maybe this has led to the bungled burglary theory but not intentionally and certainly not to help the McCanns.

My opinion only of course.

I think my reply to Maria has been taken out of context - no doubt didn't express myself clearly.

So much has been said about whether or not Pamela Fenn was the victim of a burglary or attempted burglary, something in a previous post (Maria I think, forgive me if I'm wrong) prompted me to pluck the quote from Pamela Fenn's statement to prove she did say herself that she was the victim of an attempted burglary - there was no other reason or meaning to be implied.

The rest of my post was only intended to be an illustration of how Pamela Fenn's statement could have been of assistance to the McCanns, apropos of Maria's comment that she couldn't see how Mrs Fenn's account could have benefited the McCanns.

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I think my reply to Maria has been taken out of context - no doubt didn't express myself clearly.

So much has been said about whether or not Pamela Fenn was the victim of a burglary or attempted burglary, something in a previous post (Maria I think, forgive me if I'm wrong) prompted me to pluck the quote from Pamela Fenn's statement to prove she did say herself that she was the victim of an attempted burglary - there was no other reason or meaning to be implied.

The rest of my post was only intended to be an illustration of how Pamela Fenn's statement couldhave been of assistance to the McCanns, apropos of Maria's comment that she couldn't see how Mrs Fenn's account could have benefited the McCanns.


I never believed she didn't say she was a victim of attempted burglary, what I did say though was I couldnt find any statement from her about an ankle grabbing burglar. After catching up on Mrs Fenn I now know these were just press reports. (Ankle grabbing burglar) She said herself it was all rubbish.

I'm new to the Pamela Fenn incident because I had always believed her and never knew there was doubt, hence why I wanted to read everything I could and so I read all the links provided. 

In the end I still believe her statement, bearing in mind the sort of questions she was asked and what she was aware of at the time her official statement was taken in August I think she was being truthful. 
I explained my reasons in more detail a couple of pages back and I believe my points are valid, regardless of any ifs buts and maybes. 

I still cant see how she benefitted the McCanns but I can certainly see how the McCanns used part of her statement, twistd it, added to it, completly fabricated it to suit their own agenda.

Even if Mrs. Fenn's statement is taken on face value as true, is it really credible that she wouldn't have reported to the Portuguese police the attempted burglary incident at the time of it happening?

If she did report the burglary then there is no mention from Portugal as far as I'm aware.

It's difficult to understand that an elderly lady (octogenarian) wouldn't report an attempted  burglary in her home - no matter if nothing was taken. The mere fact that she was allegedly present and witnessed a burglar in her home is something that would frighten the pants off anyone of any age.

To not have reported it seems inconceivable. So the only conclusion is that either she did report it and the Portuguese police has not declared it or it didn't actually happen.

Just my opinion.

It seems inconceivable if she were an old lady living on her own in a private house, but she lived in an apartment complex and it is quite possible that she reported it to security who said they would deal with it.

plebgate wrote:It seems inconceivable if she were an old lady living on her own in a private house, but she lived in an apartment complex and it is quite possible that she reported it to security who said they would deal with it.

What security would that be plebs?

aquila wrote:Even if Mrs. Fenn's statement is taken on face value as true, is it really credible that she wouldn't have reported to the Portuguese police the attempted burglary incident at the time of it happening?

If she did report the burglary then there is no mention from Portugal as far as I'm aware.

It's difficult to understand that an elderly lady (octogenarian) wouldn't report an attempted  burglary in her home - no matter if nothing was taken. The mere fact that she was allegedly present and witnessed a burglar in her home is something that would frighten the pants off anyone of any age.

To not have reported it seems inconceivable. So the only conclusion is that either she did report it and the Portuguese police has not declared it or it didn't actually happen.

Just my opinion.

 I think it would be credible if at the time of the incident she didnt think it was an attempted burglary.  We dont know if the person actually entered her home or merely tried to open her door. 
In the next couple of months she would have read about the so called spate of burglars all around her and maybe thought to herself, oh I bet that man trying to open my door was going to burgle me. 

I'm just throwing that out there as a possibility.  Its also possible she may have told the police someone tried to open her door/window or whatever, it's possible she only told the residence commitee, it's also possible at the time she thought someone got the wrong apartment, a drunk trying to find his way home.

I'm trying to show that there are lots of other possibilities out there rather than if she didnt tell the police it didnt happen. 

As an aside, several years ago a young man walked into my living room while I was watching telly, scared the living daylights out of me.  He looked at me and said oh sorry I think I'm in the wrong house I'm looking for a party somewhere down here.  I said yes you have the wrong house and locked the doors when he left.  I didn't report it to anyone except for my husband.  But, if later I found out there were alot of burglarys in my area I might have been Inclined to then believe that stranger attempted to burgle me. 

Sorry about all the ifs buts maybes, I prefer to throw all possibilities out there so we can take everything into account rather than state it was this or that and nothing else is possible.

Apartment complexes abroad used as holiday lets usually have a security department.  In any case even if this complex did not they had a reception desk and she may well have reported it to them who said they would deal with it.

That's very interesting.

As far as I'm aware Mrs Fenn didn't hire out her apartment and neither did all of the owners of apartments within the complex.

It's not really clear who Mrs. Fenn hired to clean and service her apartment but there is no security firm as far as I know and the Ocean Club reception was for holidaymakers.

You make a valid point here plebs.

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:  "as many know I follow the facts from the files and direct attributable quotes (in context) and cannot take an omission as a 'fact'"

With respect HiDeHo, you repeatedly say this and immediately go headlong into doing the exact opposite, working on speculation about what isn't in the PJ files as opposed to what is and using tabloid press reports to bolster your speculative opinion.  Not suggesting you claim the information outside the PJ files to be factual but you do nonetheless quote unofficial information sources to reinforce your theory and/or  stimulate discussion 

Personally, I believe a heck of a lot went on informally, even if only meetings in the crisis room, I can't however begin to speculate what that missing information might be so, the PJ files and/or other official sources of information and matters closely related it must be.

You are right Verdi.  In CMOMM I stray further away from the facts from the files maybe.  

In my FB group I stick to ONLY files facts because that is what we are based on and as members are made up of a lot of newbies we try to be careful about anything speculative. (Not always but we try) :)

I love coming here to discuss and debate with knowledgeable members and also I HAVE used news reports that don't include quotes because this issue about the UK citizen being charged is something that has had me curious for a long time and knowing that some of the media reports DO have a basis in fact I have always felt these issues should not be brushed aside.  (SOL reports gave us info that was subsequently seen in the files)

The date of Mrs Fenns statement seems to be linked with this 'search warrant' action (that didnt appear to happen) (as I recall Russel  O'Brien was denying he was a target) and so I brought up the media reports with nothing  to base it on in the files.

I agree Tony has donea huge amount of research to come to his conclusion and just because I haven't done similar research and come to my own conclusions does not mean he may be absolutely correct.  It just means that with knowledge that there is a lot of info with missing files as well as probably 70% of the intelligence not in the files I am retiscent to attribute a fact because of an omission.

One example... I was trying to find out details about Rebelo's trips to the apartment (at a time when reports were saying he claimed 7 children in one apartment) but there is nothing listed about him going or what they found and apparently  would not have been something that was added to the files.

So yes...as I said you are right about me sometimes using news reports (in this thread anyway) but only if I feel they are relevant or possibly credible (are you also curious about this UK citizen that seemed to be under imminent arrest with all police holidays cancelled and a search warrant with a 48 hr deadline?) and why did they consider Mrs Fenn would have been helpful to their case (With such a dramatic situation, I would hardly think they would focus on interviewing Mrs Fenn unless she could be helpful to the situation)

Along with facts we use logic and I love being made to second guess myself and have already admitted to info I have found to support Tony's beliefs, showing in that instance I was wrong :)

Debate...Discuss...Disagree is all healthy in seeking the truth but to 'blindly believe' unless/until you have that info to convince you can lead to confusion and its always good to keep oneself open to possibilities of being wrong...

I see a country with non internet public believing in the innocence of the McCanns because they lack the knowledge or are unable to admit they could be wrong and defend their initial beliefs because the majority of people think they are a 'failure' if they made a mistake.

THanks Verdi for your input in here and for questioning me  (Tony also) 

If it's not the (possible/probable)  truth I don't want to continue claiming  anything that could influence others.

Apologies if this seems a little off topic but it may give some credibility to Mrs Fenn's statement.  There are certainly questions regarding the knowledge of the contents being known earlier so there may be some issues with it.

I just wanted to give the perspective/context of her statement (given in secret?) and with Tony's research it is relevant to whether the crying happened or not..


Going through the media reports around that time it seems that (as we have often heard Goncalo Amaral mention) that apart from Matthew Oldfield, the only person to leave the table for a grreat length of time was Russel O'Brien and he appeared to be the suspect under surveillance in UK

Several staff and Mrs Fenn were interviewed in secret in the resort as per one news report below.

If this was the case and as this article claims... 'Pamela Fenn, 70, had been inquired at the beginning of the investigation, but the day before yesterday she made a more precise deposition about the details of what she heard and the conversation she held with the girl’s mother on the night that she vanished.' the interview may have been specific to the issue with the 'suspect' and not just a regular interview because the PJ had missed interviewing her before...

How correct are the media reports (and there are lots) I don't know but there appeared to be something happening, hence Mrs Fenn and Ocean club staff interviewed again.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 21.8.07

Judiciaria prepares megaoperation

Police is preparing for this week a “large scale” operation, and the emission of search warrants was asked for locations where Madeleine was taken through on the night she disappeared.

Although it is not clear in what area those searches will be executed, everything indicates it may be in Praia da Luz, where the PJ has been saying for a long time that “the key to the enigma” resides. The intensification of those investigations has also lead the inspectors to cancel all holidays and days off, thus remaining in standby for any solicitations.

On the other hand, several Policia Judiciaria (PJ) inspectors have used, for over two weeks, four apartments of the Ocean Club, in Praia da Luz, near Lagos, in order to hear again the employees of that tourist resort and to “clarify” situations that are connected to the McCann couple and their friends, especially on the night of May 3, when Madeleine disappeared.

As DN could discover, during these diligences, which were made in a discreet form and away from journalists’ eyes, a total of four inspectors occupied, simultaneously, the living rooms, bedrooms and kitchens of every apartment. Among the resort’s staff, silence is the main order.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 21.8.07

British suspect’s arrest may be imminent

English police is preparing the detention of a friend of the McCanns, in Exeter, for the suspicion of being involved in Madeleine’s disappearance, in the Algarve. Some of the friends that spent their holidays with the McCann couple at the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, reside in that city.

DN could find out that British televisions are preparing to move, today, report teams into that city, in order to accompany the situation.

It is expected that UK detectives act after receiving information from their Portuguese colleagues. This information is advanced by English newspaper ‘Daily Express’, which assures there are English suspects that have been watched for several weeks.

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] 22.8.07

Deposition: Child cried for her father
Maddie yelled for her father

The McCanns’ neighbour in the Ocean Club apartment was heard on Monday by Policia Judiciaria and confirmed she heard Maddie crying for her father the day before she disappeared. Pamela Fenn, 70, had been inquired at the beginning of the investigation, but the day before yesterday she made a more precise deposition about the details of what she heard and the conversation she held with the girl’s mother on the night that she vanished.

In the deposition that was made at PJ in Portimao, which has been functioning as the headquarters of the investigation, Pamela Fenn confirmed she had made herself available to contact police authorities, although Kate McCann dismissed that offer saying the alert had been made. The crossing of the time at which this conversation took place with the record of the alert to GNR is one of the important elements for the reconstitution of what happened during those moments.

The date for the deposition was scheduled with the witness in order to avoid pressure from the media. The interrogation was scheduled for yesterday, but was then anticipated on the last few days and kept secret. Even yesterday, Olegario Sousa, the PJ’s spokesman, assured he could not confirm the diligence, while a few days earlier he had denied it completely.

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If there is any truth it those reports, I wonder what they had on ROB and why were they watching him, and also why wasn't he arrested.
It beggars belief how these people got away with it.

I can't help but think that Mrs
Fenn really did hear crying on the Tuesday night but it was Kate crying, 'Maddie' and not Maddie herself. The night of the quiz Gerry was flirting with the aerobics teacher who saw an empty place at the dinner table and could not remember seeing Kate. Now if my husband was flirting with a very attractive woman in my presence I would definitely let her know I was around. Mrs Fenn heard the patio door open and presumed the parents had come home and the crying stopped immediately. Now isn't it more likely that she heard Gerry come home? Presumably the patio doors wouldn't need locking if Kate was in the apartment so Gerry was able just to slide them  open. How is it possible that the crying would immediately stop if it was a child ? In my experience crying children generally require a lot of soothing and loud intermittent sobs brings the crying episode to a gradual end. An adult however can stop immediately.
I think something happened to Madeleine on the Monday 30th April. This was the day she appeared to have been taken from the crèche ten minutes after arriving ........15.35 to be exact. Where did they take her? The Tuesday beach scenario is a load of codswallop and certainly doesn't ring true . The short cuts to the crèche began on Tuesday morning which was possibly a ruse to disguise the fact Madeleine was no longer around. The date 30th April - May 1st unfortunately has great  occult significance which may be neither here nor there.

i have the same feeling about the crying being from Kate, not only had she just lost a child a day or two before but Mr.  is flirting with an attractive woman to top it all.  

i've also never heard a child who was crying for a long period, suddenly stop.  Unless we are both wrong and it was Madeleine crying and it wasn't a door opening that was heard, but a child being slammed against the wall.

I've held the belief for a long, long time that Mrs Fenn heard Kate crying, "Maddie, Maddie".  Hence the "we never called her Maddie, that was a name the papers made up".  There are multiple instances of proof that that's just not true.

BarryTheHatchet wrote:I've held the belief for a long, long time that Mrs Fenn heard Kate crying, "Maddie, Maddie".  Hence the "we never called her Maddie, that was a name the papers made up".  There are multiple instances of proof that that's just not true.

Whoops sorry I misread your post. I disagree as I think it was Maddie sobbing for her daddy!

It could also have been one of the twins sobbing for "Daddy" or "Maddie" when their sister wouldn't wake up....

It was one child crying as you say, and (imo) it was Maddie.