Re: "Seven more Portuguese and British Arguidos in the Maddie case" - TOTAL SUSPECTS NOW 11 (ELEVEN)

by jeanmonroe 11.11.14 2:57

IKNOWWHATHAPPENED wrote:Michaela, Malinka, Malinkas mum. I wonder if old one eye Murat will be reinterviewed.

Can't see it, myself!

by Joss 11.11.14 7:27

If the dogs were able to detect cadaver evidence in the McCann apartment it means that a deceased body was detected within probably a couple of hours after the death. I'm not sure of exactly how much time after someone has died that the dogs can detect that type of evidence, but i think it is between 1-2 hours after the death at minimum from what i have read?
That would mean a body was in the McC's holiday apartment for at least a 1-2 hour time frame if dogs alerted to it. And if someone actually abducted her and killed her elsewhere then there would of been no cadaver evidence at all in the apartment.
What window of opportunity was there in that case if Madeleine's body was removed very quickly after her death, as the speculation is burglars did it by the british investigation team? If SODDI and immediately removed a dead body, i don't think the dogs would have alerted for cadaver evidence in the holiday apartment. So in that case the body would of been there for longer if the dogs alerted as they did. So who does that leave to be with the body for that long? I really don't think any burglars would hang around for that long if they killed Madeleine would they? Especially not if we can believe the frequency of the checks done on the children? At most the supposed burglar would have only had a fairly small window of opportunity if that were the case to get out of there.

by whatsupdoc 11.11.14 8:49

Joss wrote:If the dogs were able to detect cadaver evidence in the McCann apartment it means that a deceased body was detected within probably a couple of hours after the death. I'm not sure of exactly how much time after someone has died that the dogs can detect that type of evidence, but i think it is between 1-2 hours after the death at minimum from what i have read?
That would mean a body was in the McC's holiday apartment for at least a 1-2 hour time frame if dogs alerted to it. And if someone actually abducted her and killed her elsewhere then there would of been no cadaver evidence at all in the apartment.
What window of opportunity was there in that case if Madeleine's body was removed very quickly after her death, as the speculation is burglars did it by the british investigation team? If SODDI and immediately removed a dead body, i don't think the dogs would have alerted for cadaver evidence in the holiday apartment. So in that case the body would of been there for longer if the dogs alerted as they did. So who does that leave to be with the body for that long? I really don't think any burglars would hang around for that long if they killed Madeleine would they? Especially not if we can believe the frequency of the checks done on the children? At most the supposed burglar would have only had a fairly small window of opportunity if that were the case to get out of there.

Very succinctly put, Joss. Many people agree with this but it is good to have it explained in just a few sentences.

If it is true about cadaver odour taking 1-2 hours to develop then according to the mccanns giving the alarm that Madeleine had been "abducted" sometime between 2130 and 2200, they must have been with Madeleine when she died.
I still believe it was the w/e when it happened as the mccanns were signing in other children into the creche.

The UK police are completely ignoring logic in this investigation. It's obvious they are being told what to do by a higher authority. Lying is the Status Quo.

by woodforthetrees 11.11.14 9:41

If it is true about cadaver odour taking 1-2 hours to develope then according to the mccanns giving the alarm that Madeleine had been "abducted" sometime between 2130 and 2200, they must have been with Madeleine when she died.

There have been other discussions on this. I read somewhere that it takes 30 mins, but in a warmer climate and the age of the cadaver, less than that.

Enough time to move the cadaver from behind the sofa, into the bedroom (on the floor next to the bed) and into the cupboard where the big blue (now missing) bag was kept

by palm tree 11.11.14 10:00

Aha, are they trying to tell us after GM last check a burglar may have ended her life, hide her behind the sofa, 9:30 check she wasn't seen and between the checks this person cleaned the apartment, then slipped out with the body before 10? Yeah right!
IMO

by whatsupdoc 11.11.14 10:08

woodforthetrees wrote:

If it is true about cadaver odour taking 1-2 hours to develope then according to the mccanns giving the alarm that Madeleine had been "abducted" sometime between 2130 and 2200, they must have been with Madeleine when she died.

There have been other discussions on this. I read somewhere that it takes 30 mins, but in a warmer climate and the age of the cadaver, less than that.

Enough time to move the cadaver from behind the sofa, into the bedroom (on the floor next to the bed) and into the cupboard where the big blue (now missing) bag was kept

Statements from the Tapas 7 say it was chilly on the 3rd so the body must have been in 5A for quite some time which makes a Window of Opportunity about half an hour or so...not as suggested by mccanns.

Cadaver odour on Kate's clothes , keys and hire car rule out an abduction theory.

Just supposing Madeleine did die on the 3rd, were all the people in 5A helping to clean up before the police arrived? .... with Brains and Professor Beaker scribbling out a couple of Timelines?

by Dr What 11.11.14 10:24

I expect that there were only 2 or three people actually involved in the physical removal of the body from the apartment, but that when and if all the dust settles in this case, there will be many more people charged with perverting the course of justice.

This case has remained unsolved largely because of the false claims and lies told by those acquaintances of the previous 'arguidos'.

by Gaggzy 11.11.14 10:43

Dr What wrote:I expect that there were only 2 or three people actually involved in the physical removal of the body from the apartment, but that when and if all the dust settles in this case, there will be many more people charged with perverting the course of justice.

This case has remained unsolved largely because of the false claims and lies told by those acquaintances of the previous 'arguidos'.

The list of people charged with perverting the course of justice in this case could be as long as your arm!

by sami 11.11.14 10:49

woodforthetrees wrote:

If it is true about cadaver odour taking 1-2 hours to develope then according to the mccanns giving the alarm that Madeleine had been "abducted" sometime between 2130 and 2200, they must have been with Madeleine when she died.

There have been other discussions on this. I read somewhere that it takes 30 mins, but in a warmer climate and the age of the cadaver, less than that.

Enough time to move the cadaver from behind the sofa, into the bedroom (on the floor next to the bed) and into the cupboard where the big blue (now missing) bag was kept

He was so panicked at being seen by a three year old child he was driven to murder her. Then stayed in the apartment for 30 minutes moving her body around before calmly walking outside with her and away into the dak night never to be seen or heard of again. Without a single trace or sighting in 7 years, except for when he cleverly cross contaminated Kate's clothing and the hire car with cadaver in order to frame the grieving parents. nah

I suggest this person is wasted as a burglar and should be recruited as a highly paid consultant by law enforcement agencies worldwide as he has indeed committed the perfect crime.

by **PeterMac** 11.11.14 11:10

sami wrote:
He was so panicked at being seen by a three year old child he was driven to murder her. Then stayed in the apartment for 30 minutes moving her body around before calmly walking outside with her and away into the dak night never to be seen or heard of again. Without a single trace or sighting in 7 years, except for when he cleverly cross contaminated Kate's clothing and the hire car with cadaver in order to frame the grieving parents
I suggest this person is wasted as a burglar and should be recruited as a highly paid consultant by law enforcement agencies worldwide as he has indeed committed the perfect crime.

"They seek him here, they seek him there
Those Grangies seek him everywhere!
Is he in Faro ? Or is he in Hell?
That demmed E-luz-ive Pimpernel?"

by whatsupdoc 11.11.14 11:19

PeterMac wrote:
sami wrote:
He was so panicked at being seen by a three year old child he was driven to murder her. Then stayed in the apartment for 30 minutes moving her body around before calmly walking outside with her and away into the dak night never to be seen or heard of again. Without a single trace or sighting in 7 years, except for when he cleverly cross contaminated Kate's clothing and the hire car with cadaver in order to frame the grieving parents
I suggest this person is wasted as a burglar and should be recruited as a highly paid consultant by law enforcement agencies worldwide as he has indeed committed the perfect crime.

"They seek him here, they seek him there
Those Grangies seek him everywhere!
Is he in Faro ? Or is he in Hell?
That demmed E-luz-ive Pimpernel?"

Very good. You got the luz in as well. smilie

If SY police are asked by their friends if they work on the mccann case do they answer..
a) Unfortunately, yes, it pays the mortgage etc. and we get free trips abroad.
b) You must be joking. Do I look stupid?

by **PeterMac** 11.11.14 11:26

Interesting that the phones have been mentioned.
Grange know who phoned whom.
So Grange also know that Gerry and Kate erased their phone records
And that they lied about having done so.

Grange and the PJ were sent very detailed professional analysis along time ago, and should have then replicated this themselves
It sounds as though the may have done.

by NickE 11.11.14 12:17

PeterMac wrote:Interesting that the phones have been mentioned.
Grange know who phoned whom.
So Grange also know that Gerry and Kate erased their phone records
And that they lied about having done so.

Grange and the PJ were sent very detailed professional analysis along time ago, and should have then replicated this themselves
It sounds as though the may have done.

..... and I wonder if they checked this out.

From "Kiko":

" I always said RobertMurat's texting at 2200 on 1/5 was directly connected with K Mccann's which started 2 mins after Murat's had finished. 
Here's another funny thing: Murat pairs of SMS 2200 1/5 separated by: 1 min, 3 mins, 6 mins. KM's at 2216 by 1 min, 3 mins, 7 mins.Connect"!

by whatsupdoc 11.11.14 14:18

NickE wrote:
PeterMac wrote:Interesting that the phones have been mentioned.
Grange know who phoned whom.
So Grange also know that Gerry and Kate erased their phone records
And that they lied about having done so.

Grange and the PJ were sent very detailed professional analysis along time ago, and should have then replicated this themselves
It sounds as though the may have done.
..... and I wonder if they checked this out.

From "Kiko":

" I always said RobertMurat's texting at 2200 on 1/5 was directly connected with K Mccann's which started 2 mins after Murat's had finished. 
Here's another funny thing: Murat pairs of SMS 2200 1/5 separated by: 1 min, 3 mins, 6 mins. KM's at 2216 by 1 min, 3 mins, 7 mins.Connect"!

I've not seen every tweet from kikoratton so I must say I find the sms times more than a coincidence. I believe the mccanns went to Chaplins on the Tuesday evening around 2130-2200 and stayed till midnight. Chaplins is 800 metres from 5A.
Apparently, a friend of Mrs. Fenn saw the group there and mentioned this on an interview with Antenna 3 TV. Staff from the Ocean Club were also apparently sent to Chaplins to inform the mccanns that children had been crying in 5A for some considerable time. This was around midnight. No wonder staff at the OC were removed.

The switching off and back on after many hours in synchronism between Gerry and Robert M always made me wonder as it didn't seem like a coincidence to me. We are missing more than one piece of the jigsaw.

by **PeterMac** 11.11.14 14:25

whatsupdoc wrote:We are missing more than one piece of the jigsaw.

But it begins to sound as if Grange have the other pieces

by jeanmonroe 11.11.14 14:32

Istbc:

Didn't the PJ 'have' all the phone 'traffic' but weren't 'allowed' to 'use' it?

Presumeably it was NOT destroyed/deleted, it just 'couldn't' be used..........at the time!

But they STILL 'have' it all.

by sallypelt 11.11.14 14:42

whatsupdoc wrote:
NickE wrote:
PeterMac wrote:Interesting that the phones have been mentioned.
Grange know who phoned whom.
So Grange also know that Gerry and Kate erased their phone records
And that they lied about having done so.

Grange and the PJ were sent very detailed professional analysis along time ago, and should have then replicated this themselves
It sounds as though the may have done.
..... and I wonder if they checked this out.

From "Kiko":

" I always said RobertMurat's texting at 2200 on 1/5 was directly connected with K Mccann's which started 2 mins after Murat's had finished. 
Here's another funny thing: Murat pairs of SMS 2200 1/5 separated by: 1 min, 3 mins, 6 mins. KM's at 2216 by 1 min, 3 mins, 7 mins.Connect"!

I've not seen every tweet from kikoratton so I must say I find the sms times more than a coincidence. I believe the mccanns went to Chaplins on the Tuesday evening around 2130-2200 and stayed till midnight. Chaplins is 800 metres from 5A.
Apparently, a friend of Mrs. Fenn saw the group there and mentioned this on an interview with Antenna 3 TV. Staff from the Ocean Club were also apparently sent to Chaplins to inform the mccanns that children had been crying in 5A for some considerable time. This was around midnight. No wonder staff at the OC were removed.

The switching off and back on after many hours in synchronism between Gerry and Robert M always made me wonder as it didn't seem like a coincidence to me. We are missing more than one piece of the jigsaw.

Also, why did R Murat tell the PJ that he returned to Portugal, from the UK, on the 1st of May, when Malinka says, in his PJ statement, that he MET R Murat for a meeting on THIRTIETH OF APRIL?

From Robert Murat’s PJ statement:

“ he said he arrived on May 01 at 09:30 at the airport in Faro, coming from the city of Exeter, which has an airport. His address, that is the home of his grandmother that he is restoring, is at Sidmouth in Devon. His sister lives in two different locations, both in Exeter”.

Quote taken from S Malinka's PJ Statement:

“meeting took place on 30 April 2007, so the contact call occurred on 29th. It was held in the "Baptista" supermarket, about 10H00”

by whatsupdoc 11.11.14 15:03

I have wondered whether intelligence services were listening to all mobile conversations the whole week seeing there was Edmonson from his Steel company and the guy from NZ who supplied coal to steel companies staying there that week. Maybe others of importance we haven't heard about. Gerry did say he wasn't there to enjoy himself. The Portuguese did say about messages being inadmissible in court coz they were too personal...a good signpost to what was going down , though.

Traffic from mccanns could have been monitored and recorded quite easily using a Pineapple system...a man in the middle wifi modem where subscribers think they are routed straight to the cell tower.
I seem to think this may be one of the cards up GA's sleeve.

PS Just spotted your post Jean. Yes, it's a possibility and I think that the court decided against using phone evidence. It must have helped the PJ be at the right place at the right time.

by sallypelt 11.11.14 15:07

whatsupdoc wrote:I have wondered whether intelligence services were listening to all mobile conversations the whole week seeing there was Edmonson from his Steel company and the guy from NZ who supplied coal to steel companies staying there that week. Maybe others of importance we haven't heard about. Gerry did say he wasn't there to enjoy himself. The Portuguese did say about messages being inadmissible in court coz they were too personal...a good signpost to what was going down , though.

Traffic from mccanns could have been monitored and recorded quite easily using a Pineapple system...a man in the middle wifi modem where subscribers think they are routed straight to the cell tower.
I seem to think this may be one of the cards up GA's sleeve.

PS Just spotted your post Jean. Yes, it's a possibility and I think that the court decided against using phone evidence. It must have helped the PJ be at the right place at the right time.

My understanding is that such information cannot be made in retrospect. So, any calls that were made before Madeleine McCann went missing, is not allowed in a court of law, as no permission was granted by the court for such information to be made available.

by whatsupdoc 11.11.14 15:12

That's right sallypelt but it would be invaluable to the PJ knowing who was doing what and where they were going. They could observe all the activities.

by XTC 12.11.14 22:13

jeanmonroe wrote:Istbc:

Didn't the PJ 'have' all the phone 'traffic' but weren't 'allowed' to 'use' it?

Presumeably it was NOT destroyed/deleted, it just 'couldn't' be used..........at the time!

But they STILL 'have' it all.

jeanmonroe:

I think the phone ( as in mobile phone ) business appears to be a central plank of the SY investigation.

This is curious because the PJ phone expert had already flagged up various call/tecxt permutations from the night of
Madeleine's missingness.

If I recall the PJ under Mr Amaral requested from the Prosecutor calls made before the event as it were and was refused permission to
examine phone records before the event. Privacy was used as an excuse.

The thing for myself at the time was that the mobiles were British company rentals such as say Orange UK, 02 etc etc. Therefore the phone records ( actual calls and contents of texts sent and received ) would have to have UK permission from the Home Office to ask the UK providers to hand over the details for the PJ to possibly examine. This request was refused by some Commissioner or other I can't remember
offhand though. It appears the Portuguese settled for that and just used triangulation with pings. Basically ( and I'm no expert ) which numbers were where and the times of a call or text- not the content.

From the little I've gleaned from mobile phone providers they are legally obliged to keep content for one year at least and that bird will have flown long ago. But SY are under the orders of The Home Office and they may have access the aftermath of the event?

Apparently there are a few posters on the net who claim to have worked for GCHQ and maybe worked at Fylingdales in North Yorkshire.

My question for these people who worked there is could SY make use of the listening stations in respect of intercepting or accidentally picking up ' traffic' calls from Portugal on the night? I imagine that the noise from PdL would be of interest to GCHQ or other listening stations
because there would be a lot of it. I heard that when the Tottenham riots were happening that a lot of info on the rioters was picked up this way and not just on the net but via mobile phone traffic. Anti Terrorism traffic could be picked up the same way I think.

Basically what the PJ were denied could have been or could still be accessible to SY. They are acting on behalf of the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary afterall. Perhaps they should explore the opportunity?

This would be beyond the removal time of Madeleine but it may still be very useful info.

Opinion though.

"Seven more Portuguese and British Arguidos in the Maddie case" - TOTAL SUSPECTS NOW 11 (ELEVEN)