Metropolitan Police 'gathered information' on Menezes family

by sallypelt 24.07.14 11:10

The Met Police gathered information on relatives of Jean Charles de Menezes, who was shot dead by police nine years ago, their lawyer has said.

Mr Menezes was killed at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July 2005 by officers who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

His family's lawyer said she had been informed by the Met that information was gathered on them after his death.

It comes ahead of the publication of a report on claims officers were tasked with infiltrating justice campaigns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28459711

by nglfi 24.07.14 11:45

I'm a bit confused by why the Met would do this? Is this because they suspected these families of illegal activity? Surely any undercover work has to satisfy an established set of criteria, and has to be important enough to spend time on in the first place. What were they looking for? Is it because recently bereaved families of a high profile victim are vulnerable and susceptible to fraudsters or people looking to make money off it? I'm having a bit of a dumb moment, I don't understand!

by sallypelt 24.07.14 12:00

nglfi wrote:I'm a bit confused by why the Met would do this? Is this because they suspected these families of illegal activity? Surely any undercover work has to satisfy an established set of criteria, and has to be important enough to spend time on in the first place. What were they looking for? Is it because recently bereaved families of a high profile victim are vulnerable and susceptible to fraudsters or people looking to make money off it? I'm having a bit of a dumb moment, I don't understand!

Why "infiltrate justice campaigns"?

by Gaggzy 24.07.14 12:13

nglfi wrote:I'm a bit confused by why the Met would do this? Is this because they suspected these families of illegal activity? Surely any undercover work has to satisfy an established set of criteria, and has to be important enough to spend time on in the first place. What were they looking for? Is it because recently bereaved families of a high profile victim are vulnerable and susceptible to fraudsters or people looking to make money off it? I'm having a bit of a dumb moment, I don't understand!

Quite simply, when the police KNOW they have cocked-up in a situation, and someone has died due to their negligence and police officers have not done their job properly, they bend over backwards to apportion blame onto the victim or victims of their error.

Whether one person has died, or ninety-six people have died.

by nglfi 24.07.14 12:26

Gaggzy wrote:
nglfi wrote:I'm a bit confused by why the Met would do this? Is this because they suspected these families of illegal activity? Surely any undercover work has to satisfy an established set of criteria, and has to be important enough to spend time on in the first place. What were they looking for? Is it because recently bereaved families of a high profile victim are vulnerable and susceptible to fraudsters or people looking to make money off it? I'm having a bit of a dumb moment, I don't understand!

Quite simply, when the police KNOW they have cocked-up in a situation, and someone has died due to their negligence and police officers have not done their job properly, they bend over backwards to apportion blame onto the victim or victims of their error.

Whether one person has died, or ninety-six people have died.

Hmm. Depressing. But a plausible explanation.

by Five Star 24.07.14 12:33

Bad policemen don't exist......

by Guest 24.07.14 12:38

Possibly they were looking for dirt in preparation for smearing if/when things got difficult.

by **PeterMac** 24.07.14 15:01

Five Star wrote:Bad policemen don't exist......

How I wish that were so, but sadly I recognise the irony in your remark.

Bad police officers do exist and several are in prison
I was involved in one such case, and had to give the evidence I had without "Fear or favour, Malice or ill will"
The officer went down for three months, which was grossly unjust for other reasons.
It was not a good day.

I also once put an officer on a charge of Neglect of Duty, and he was heavily fined by the Chief Constable and was given a final warning, as it was his second 'offence'.
Some many years before I had been Best Man at his wedding.

He understood, and had the decency to admit the disciplinary offence at his hearing.

by margaret 24.07.14 15:59

BlueBag wrote:Possibly they were looking for dirt in preparation for smearing if/when things got difficult.

That's exactly what l think they were trying to do. They cocked up and they tried to find another avenue to blame Menizes for.

by Guest 24.07.14 16:41

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Stephen_Waldorf

I'm reminded of this case from over 30 years ago where the victim of mistaken identity by the police was amazingly lucky to have survived the incident.

I can remember hearing stories that he was no good, into drugs etc, as if that could excuse how he was treated.

by **PeterMac** 24.07.14 17:50

Was Cressida Dick involved, I wonder ?

by Guest 24.07.14 17:57

Cressida Dick joined the police force in 1983 as a constable so I don't think so!

by SixMillionQuid 24.07.14 18:36

"It said a number of former SDS officers said they received no training over what information they could or could not gather and did not work to national guidelines.

"Their internal operating philosophy was... effectively unchallenged," it said."

Begs the question who were they working for then? Who did they think they working for and for what purpose?

There must have been some guideline written down somewhere even if it's on the back of a cigarette packet.

by MRNOODLES 24.07.14 19:23

sallypelt wrote:The Met Police gathered information on relatives of Jean Charles de Menezes, who was shot dead by police nine years ago, their lawyer has said.

Mr Menezes was killed at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July 2005 by officers who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

His family's lawyer said she had been informed by the Met that information was gathered on them after his death.

It comes ahead of the publication of a report on claims officers were tasked with infiltrating justice campaigns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28459711

I remember a radio phone in just after this happen. There were stories of Menezes leaping over ticket barriers with bomb wires hanging out of his clothes etc. At the time, many said the account of what was supposed to have happened didn't add up.

by Guest 24.07.14 19:38

MRNOODLES wrote:
sallypelt wrote:The Met Police gathered information on relatives of Jean Charles de Menezes, who was shot dead by police nine years ago, their lawyer has said.

Mr Menezes was killed at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July 2005 by officers who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

His family's lawyer said she had been informed by the Met that information was gathered on them after his death.

It comes ahead of the publication of a report on claims officers were tasked with infiltrating justice campaigns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28459711

I remember a radio phone in just after this happen. There were stories of Menezes leaping over ticket barriers with bomb wires hanging out of his clothes etc. At the time, many said the account of what was supposed to have happened didn't add up.

A bit like all those Liverpool fans we were told had been urinating on police at Hillsborough. Where do these stories come from, I wonder?

by Gaggzy 24.07.14 19:59

Popcorn wrote:
MRNOODLES wrote:
sallypelt wrote:The Met Police gathered information on relatives of Jean Charles de Menezes, who was shot dead by police nine years ago, their lawyer has said.

Mr Menezes was killed at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July 2005 by officers who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

His family's lawyer said she had been informed by the Met that information was gathered on them after his death.

It comes ahead of the publication of a report on claims officers were tasked with infiltrating justice campaigns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28459711

I remember a radio phone in just after this happen. There were stories of Menezes leaping over ticket barriers with bomb wires hanging out of his clothes etc. At the time, many said the account of what was supposed to have happened didn't add up.

A bit like all those Liverpool fans we were told had been urinating on police at Hillsborough. Where do these stories come from, I wonder?

I'm dying to say loads but I've got to be careful as the new inquests are underway, but it's all on record and in the open that those vile, disgusting lies peddled by the Scum newspaper had their origins from the hierarchy in the SYP. Their spokesman/mouthpiece (I won't mention his name, look it up - initials PM) informed Whites newsagency in Sheffield, who in turn told the Tory MP for Sheffield, Irving Patnick (there's a despicable interview of him repeating the stories as facts because the police said so).

Then once McKenzie (editor of the Sun at the time) believed the lies without checking the story, the damage was done. And it took us 23 years to expose the REAL TRUTH.

by Guest 24.07.14 21:07

Gaggzy wrote:
Popcorn wrote:

A bit like all those Liverpool fans we were told had been urinating on police at Hillsborough. Where do these stories come from, I wonder?

I'm dying to say loads but I've got to be careful as the new inquests are underway, but it's all on record and in the open that those vile, disgusting lies peddled by the Scum newspaper had their origins from the hierarchy in the SYP. Their spokesman/mouthpiece (I won't mention his name, look it up - initials PM) informed Whites newsagency in Sheffield, who in turn told the Tory MP for Sheffield, Irving Patnick (there's a despicable interview of him repeating the stories as facts because the police said so).

Then once McKenzie (editor of the Sun at the time) believed the lies without checking the story, the damage was done. And it took us 23 years to expose the REAL TRUTH.

It's scandalous, but I don't think this PM character did it all by himself. Other people knew about this and chose to carry on the charade - despite some police officers saying at the time that their statements had been changed. I hope all the culprits get punished properly, rather than a scenario where one person takes the fall for everyone and nobody does time or even suffers financially for their behaviour.

by AndyB 24.07.14 22:09

Popcorn wrote:I hope all the culprits get punished properly, rather than a scenario where one person takes the fall for everyone and nobody does time or even suffers financially for their behaviour.

We'd all like to see that but there's no way its going to happen. The enquiry finished ages ago and how many arrests have there been? A similar number to the amount of paedophile police, judges and MPs. None.

by Gaggzy 24.07.14 22:23

AndyB wrote:
Popcorn wrote:I hope all the culprits get punished properly, rather than a scenario where one person takes the fall for everyone and nobody does time or even suffers financially for their behaviour.
We'd all like to see that but there's no way its going to happen. The enquiry finished ages ago and how many arrests have there been? A similar number to the amount of paedophile police, judges and MPs. None.

AndyB - the fresh inquests (the original verdicts of 'accidental death' were quashed in December 2012) which are currently taking place in Warrington are not due to conclude until this time next year.

Following this, and dependent on what verdict is reached by the jury, (if it's an 'unlawfully killed' verdict) then the process of prosecutions can begin.

That process could easily take another two years from charges being levelled at whomsoever, to court cases to verdicts.
But people affected by this tragedy don't really care how long it takes if people are prosecuted. It's all about justice for the terrible wrongs we suffered that day.

by AndyB 24.07.14 22:34

Gaggzy wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Popcorn wrote:I hope all the culprits get punished properly, rather than a scenario where one person takes the fall for everyone and nobody does time or even suffers financially for their behaviour.
We'd all like to see that but there's no way its going to happen. The enquiry finished ages ago and how many arrests have there been? A similar number to the amount of paedophile police, judges and MPs. None.

AndyB - the fresh inquests (the original verdicts of 'accidental death' were quashed in December 2012) which are currently taking place in Warrington are not due to conclude until this time next year.

Following this, and dependent on what verdict is reached by the jury, (if it's an 'unlawfully killed' verdict) then the process of prosecutions can begin.

That process could easily take another two years from charges being levelled at whomsoever, to court cases to verdicts.
But people affected by this tragedy don't really care how long it takes if people are prosecuted. It's all about justice for the terrible wrongs we suffered that day.

I'm not trying to diminish in anyway the suffering of the families and friends or the horrendous cover up that has gone on but I think you might be being a bit naive if you think there will be prosecutions resulting from the new inquests. Its now well known that the police, at the very least, conspired to pervert the course of justice yet none of them has been arrested. What difference do you think a different coroners verdict will achieve in respect of that? And how do you convince the CPS that any prosecution with its inevitable diminishing of "confidence" in the police will be in the public interest?

by **PeterMac** 24.07.14 22:39

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Cressida Dick joined the police force in 1983 as a constable so I don't think so!

I was referring to the de Menezes shooting, of which she was in charge.

by **PeterMac** 24.07.14 22:46

SixMillionQuid wrote:"It said a number of former SDS officers said they received no training over what information they could or could not gather and did not work to national guidelines.
"Their internal operating philosophy was... effectively unchallenged," it said."
Begs the question who were they working for then? Who did they think they working for and for what purpose?
There must have been some guideline written down somewhere even if it's on the back of a cigarette packet.

May I recommend you read
Undercover: The True Story of Britain's Secret Police Paperback – 6 Mar 2014
by Paul Lewis (Author), Rob Evans (Author)

The gripping stories of a group of police spies - written by the award-winning investigative journalists who exposed the Mark Kennedy scandal - and the uncovering of forty years of state espionage. This was an undercover operation so secret that some of our most senior police officers had no idea it existed. The job of the clandestine unit was to monitor British 'subversives' - environmental activists, anti-racist groups, animal rights campaigners.
Police stole the identities of dead people to create fake passports, driving licences and bank accounts. They then went deep undercover for years, inventing whole new lives so that they could live incognito among the people they were spying on. They used sex, intimate relationships and drugs to build their credibility. They betrayed friends, deceived lovers, even fathered children. And their operations continue today.
Undercover reveals the truth about secret police operations - the emotional turmoil, the psychological challenges and the human cost of a lifetime of deception - and asks whether such tactics can ever be justified

Amazon second hand at a few quid
Incidentally , when they talk about the human cost of a lifetime of deception they are talking about what it does to Police officers required to do this for years on end.
As well as what it does to the targets / victims

by Naz_Nomad 24.07.14 23:10

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:

I'm reminded of this case from over 30 years ago where the victim of mistaken identity by the police was amazingly lucky to have survived the incident.

I can remember hearing stories that he was no good, into drugs etc, as if that could excuse how he was treated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Stephen_Waldorf

"Detective Constable John Jardine then fired twice at Waldorf through the open driver's door. Finch, meanwhile, had made his way round to the driver's side, where he leaned into the car, aimed his revolver between Waldorf's eyes and said, "OK, cocksucker," before pulling the trigger, but the gun did not fire. Finding that he had already used all his ammunition, Finch then pistol whipped Waldorf until he lost consciousness.^[1]^[2]^[3]
Hit five times and severely wounded in his head, abdomen, and liver, the handcuffed and unconscious Waldorf was then hauled by his arms onto the pavement. Stephens, screaming and protesting, was also dragged from the vehicle.^[4] Stephens was taken to hospital and treated for injury."

by Guest 25.07.14 8:09

Naz_Nomad wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:

I'm reminded of this case from over 30 years ago where the victim of mistaken identity by the police was amazingly lucky to have survived the incident.

I can remember hearing stories that he was no good, into drugs etc, as if that could excuse how he was treated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Stephen_Waldorf

"Detective Constable John Jardine then fired twice at Waldorf through the open driver's door. Finch, meanwhile, had made his way round to the driver's side, where he leaned into the car, aimed his revolver between Waldorf's eyes and said, "OK, cocksucker," before pulling the trigger, but the gun did not fire. Finding that he had already used all his ammunition, Finch then pistol whipped Waldorf until he lost consciousness.^[1]^[2]^[3]
Hit five times and severely wounded in his head, abdomen, and liver, the handcuffed and unconscious Waldorf was then hauled by his arms onto the pavement. Stephens, screaming and protesting, was also dragged from the vehicle.^[4] Stephens was taken to hospital and treated for injury."

I never knew about this incident.

"Detectives Jardine and Finch stood trial for attempted murder and attempted wounding of Waldorf, but were cleared of all charges in October 1983."

Outrageous.

by sar 25.07.14 10:18

PeterMac wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Cressida Dick joined the police force in 1983 as a constable so I don't think so!

I was referring to the de Menezes shooting, of which she was in charge.

I believe she was "Gold Commander" on the day