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(2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

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(2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Tony Bennett on 18.11.11 22:17

'Q' has presented this paper to a Madeleine Foundation Regional meeting and has given permission for it to be published:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Every so often we come across a word or a phrase that stands out - and sticks in our minds.

What I’m going to show you now is something that did exactly that when I read it .

Take a moment to think about it - and keep it in mind as I attempt to simplify and talk you through some of the most complex and fascinating of subjects.

A match between a crime scene sample and an individual would be a very rare event if the individual was not the true source of the crime scene sample.

This is a bit of a metaphor - for lack of a better term , or a puzzle which we can relate to in terms of both the forensic and DNA evidence in this case

I’m going to touch on a few topics related to Genetics - DNA , the Forensic Science Service ( FSS ) and General Biological Forensic Service (GBFS) reports - and even one area relating to Artificial Reproduction ( AR)- something called Twinning and attempt to simplify all this and put it into some kind of context that fits in with the MM case & investigation.

I'm sure you'll all agree - This investigation should have been trying to determine what happened to a missing child , that includes , not excludes , all trace evidence found - and that includes biological material that indicates where the child or the body of the child may have been after she went missing.

At the scene of a crime samples are collected from the surrounding area and this can be for the purposes of eliminating individuals from police enquiries as well as to help narrow down the list of suspects or victims.

Trace Evidence Analysis is the discipline of forensic science that deals with minute transfers of materials ( DNA ) that cannot be seen with the unaided eye.

The results of a DNA analysis can provide an important link between victim, suspect, and /or crime scene and can also conclusively exclude or include an individual as being the source .

The key to DNA evidence lies in comparing the DNA retrieved from the scene of a crime .To do this, investigators have to do three things

1.Collect DNA at the crime scene

2. Analyse the DNA to create a DNA profile

3. Compare profiles to each other

The effective use of DNA as evidence may also require the collection and analysis of elimination samples to determine the exact source of the DNA.

Elimination samples may be taken from anyone who had access to the crime scene and may have left biological material.

These points are extremely important in this case and something else to keep in mind .

Authorities can extract DNA from almost any tissue, including hair, fingernails, bones, skin , teeth and bodily fluids.

DNA samples can be generated by tiny amounts of tissue.

DNA is the genetic material found within the cell nuclei of all living things.

DNA is a long molecule and DNA fingerprinting relies on the fact that specific bits of this molecule are replicated in little clusters along its length.

It is this sequence and number of repeats which is a useful way of distinguishing one individual from another.

A DNA 'fingerprint' relies on the fact that hardly anyone will share the same pattern of repeats along the DNA molecule. If this happens, then the chances that they are from two different individuals is very slim.

There are only ever 3 types of results obtained from DNA analysis - Conclusive/ inclusive - Exclusive - Inconclusive .

Inclusion ; When the DNA profile of a victim or suspect is consistent with the DNA profile from the crime scene evidence.

Exclusion ;When the DNA profile from a victim or suspect is inconsistent with the DNA profile generated from the crime scene evidence.

Inconclusive;Inconclusive results indicate that DNA testing could neither include nor exclude an individual as the source of biological evidence.

In mammals the strands of DNA are grouped into structures called chromosomes.

With the exception of identical twins, certain sequences of DNA of each individual are unique.

A DNA fingerprint is constructed by first extracting a DNA sample from body tissue or fluid.

The sample is then segmented using enzymes, and the segments are arranged by size using a process called electrophoresis.

The segments are marked with probes and exposed on X-ray film, where they form a characteristic pattern of black bars – called a DNA fingerprint.

To identify individuals, forensic scientists scan 10 DNA regions, or loci that vary from person to person and use the data to create a DNA profile of that individual (the DNA fingerprint). There is an extremely small chance that another person has the same DNA profile for a particular set of 10 regions.

A nuclear DNA match of loci permits little doubt that a questioned sample has come from a known individual, except in the case of identical twins.

On average, two people would probably have six or seven DNA markers in common out of 20, simply by chance, but with over 12/13 bands in common, you very, very rarely see unrelated people with that degree of similarity.

If the DNA fingerprints produced from two different samples match, the probably of two samples being from the same person is extremely high .

Generally, courts have accepted the reliability of DNA testing and admitted DNA results into evidence.

An example of conclusions provided to the Courts when a DNA match is observed would be as follows:

Approximately 1 person in every 5 trillion chosen at random from the population would be expected to possess the same DNA genotype as that found in a questioned sample . Since 5 trillion is much less than the population of the World (and so one couldn’t have 5 trillion people to compare) an alternative conclusion (based upon the same data) may be adduced. The DNA results are 5 trillion times more likely if the questioned sample originated from the suspect than if it had originated from a randomly chosen unrelated individual from the population.

Tiny amounts of Madeleine's DNA which can last for many years without substantially degrading are probably present on just about everything the family has, toys, Madeleine’s clothes, their clothes, furniture and in their car etc. Believe it or not we loose / shed aprox. 4000 to 5000 skin cells every minute and each one is unique to our very own personal identity .

As you are probably all aware, a familial profile* would show, when compared to one of their children’s DNA profiles [amended from the original - T.B.], enough components to prove whether or not a child was theirs ... but that’s all it would do , it would not prove which child it was, as everyone, bar identical twins, all have DNA components that are unique to us and make us all different .

It wasn't possible to use the same method to create an actual genetic profile for Madeleine so instead of attempting to create one from genetic evidence found on items of clothing she wore , toys she played with or anything else personal to her that she used in PDL, the authorities went back to the UK to Rothley to try and find a sample from her home & found the stain on a pillow case ( believed to be saliva ) Ref. (SJM/1) in the FSS report .

So we know they created two genetic profiles, one created from the DNA taken from her parents (a Familial profile sample) and one created from the stain found on the pillowcase in Rothley which matched a blood sample which we assume was from a heel stick sample.

Just to clarify, these two genetic profiles would not have been identical because only one would show the unique DNA components which only MM had in her genetic make up.

The need for the blood or heel stick sample if that’s what it was is understandable for definite comparison purposes but, call me an old cynic, I am naturally suspicious that this was not or could not be compared to DNA found both in the apartment and on anything belonging to Madeleine from PDL.

They were successful in locating a stain on a pillow case which is believed to be saliva , ( ref SJM/1 ) , this was compared to reference samples of Madeleine’s immediate family and proved to be different .

On 12 October 2007, the Forensic Science Service received a blood spot in a cardboard frame (object JRB/1) from Leicestershire Constabulary. That object was inside a sealed package.

The DNA profile was the same as that obtained from possible spots of saliva existing on the pillowcase and thus was born a true genetic profile of MM .

The FSS confirmed this by stating ' The results of the DNA profile obtaïned from the pïllowcase is approximately 29 million times more likely if the profïle originates form a natural child of theirs rather than someone unrelated to them. ' .... can't really argue with that .

I’ve no doubt the heel stick sample was necessary in order to provide them with a definite genetic profile to compare to the Rothley sample and that a true profile was assembled as a result.

I’ve heard various suggestions as to why this might have occurred, everything from the police & forensics not initially looking for a specific sample of her DNA in PDL to attempts to wipe out any evidence of her existence.

Whatever the case, one thing is certain, her DNA should have been present on many things and in many places, they even had a sticker book belonging to her I believe, perfect I would think for collecting a DNA sample from.

So if the heel prick sample was compared to a sample found in Rothley ( the pillowcase sample ) and proved conclusively to be from Madeleine but nothing was found in PDL , in real terms this means we still do not know for certain if the child who was in PDL has the same DNA profile or was in fact even the same child.

There is no genetic evidence to prove the profile compiled from both the heel prick & pillowcase is compatible to any DNA from the child in PDL. We simply don't know if any DNA from clothing, toys, toothbrush, or anything else she used in PDL matched that profile.

I would have thought most intelligent people who’s child goes missing would try to preserve some sort of evidence (worn clothes) belonging to the child, if not more for emotional rather than for forensic purposes?

Worn clothing is the most obvious choice when no other biological sample is available. As I’ve mentioned humans shed aprox. 4000 – 5000 skin cells a minute, each one unique to that person, - not to mention other biological stains/traces that would have been present on items of clothing. In an early report publicized in the press it was said that a white soiled sock supposedly belonging to Madeleine was sent to the FSS in order to extract a sample of her DNA - though we have never seen any report about this in the files.

Realistically there should have been an ample supply of worn clothing - and we’ve seen two photographs supposedly taken on May 3rd of her dressed in two different outfits – the tennis ball pic and the famous last photo showing her by the pool . This is not to mention other items where her DNA should have been present and should have been as easily collectable as any sample from Rothley.

I have to admit at this stage, like so many people, I’m baffled by the results and conclusions of the FSS report - in so much as results should have provided an important link between victim, suspect, and /or crime scene. They can also conclusively exclude an individual as being the source of the evidence – this is another point I believe is particularly relevant to this case, because that is what appears to have happened.

I’d like to just refer to a Letter dated 11 September regarding FSS report received by PJ on 4 September from Leicester Police, citing 15/19 matches of Madeleine DNA profile [/b]

This serves to add [to the case file] a laboratory examination report prepared in England, written in English and translated into Portuguese, delivered to this police force on 4 September 2007 by English police officer Stuart Prior.

This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired [by them] from the end of May this year.

In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.

In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components.

Portimao, 11 September 2007



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

* ‘ Familial' searching

Matches parents to children. Standard DNA profiles examine 10 markers in the DNA. Each marker has two sequences - one inherited from the mother, and one from the father.

Familial searching is based on the way in which DNA is inherited within a particular family group, DNA profiles of individuals who are related to each other being more likely to contain similarities in their DNA profiles than two unrelated individuals.





'Q' then added this further commentary:

Clearly something changed as the interpretation of the results by John Lowe attempted to exclude MM as being someone who contributed to the samples found. – I say attempted because he failed and ended up contradicting himself.

“An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. Nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area"."

"DNA analysis uses a technique in which specific regions [areas] are seen and copied (or amplified) many times. A DNA profile obtained from biological material, such as blood, semen, saliva or hair may be compared with a DNA profile obtained from a reference sample of any person. In the case that the DNA profile of the particular person is different from the DNA profile of the biological material, then that person is not the source of that material. If the profiles are equal [match], then that person, together with other persons having the same DNA profile, may be considered as a potential source of the material."

This investigation should have been trying to determine what happened to a missing child, that includes not excludes all trace evidence found, that includes biological material that indicates where the child or the body of the child may have been after she went missing. The cellular material found contained enough DNA components to fit the profile of the missing child and the report clearly states she should have been considered as a potential source of the material / sample , so why was she not ?

Coincidently, it appears the GBFS – seem to have done the same thing with hair samples. 12 hairs were recovered from tops belonging to Madeleine, nothing from the hairbrush, nothing from the pillowcase or anywhere else we know of. These were used as substitute reference samples of her hair because others found were not considered to be authentic samples …. but

they were considered not representative of a sample of her hair because they didn't match photographs of her hair or were too short in length to do mtDNA tests .

‘a total number of twelve [12] hairs or hair fragments were recovered from the tops SJM/2, SJM/4 and SJM/5. All of these appeared to be hair and not down, being mainly blonde in colour. One of the hairs was brown and distinctly darker than the other hairs, suggesting at the least, that this was a hair from someone else. ‘

Conclusion

In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests, it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these
could have been from Madeleine McCann .’

‘Approximately 15 hairs, down or fragments were blonde and fair, presenting a similarity with the reference material. All were of insufficient length to make a solid [definitive] comparison. Furthermore, they are too short to do mitochondrial DNA tests ‘

The remaining eleven hairs/fragments varied in length from 4 millimetres to 45 millimetres [~1/8" to ~1,3/4"]. I could not conclude that all hairs were from the same person. If they had been from Madeleine McCann, then they are not representative/typical/characteristic of a sample of her hair, given the length of that seen in photographs of her.’

There were more than two hundred hairs, down or fragments of hair collected . The majority appeared to be different from the blonde reference hairs recovered from SJM2, 4 and 5. Furthermore, no blonde hairs consistent with that seen in photographs of Madeleine McCann were found.

No hair was recovered from the pillow-case SJM/1 nor the hairbrush SJM/36.

So no hairs found that belonged to M, not even the 12 hairs found on the 3 tops she wore and apparently no other DNA samples that we know of obtained from PDL either.

How strange is that? - not only has M’s body vanished - but all genetic traces of M. seems to have just vanished from PDL?

Or have they? -

At this juncture lets not forget mans best friends Eddie & Keela , because I don't think they were wrong , but what did they find if there was no evidence of M?

Whose body and DNA was behind the sofa in the apartment and whose body & DNA was in the hire vehicle?

What a conundrum !!

Forensic evidence dogs don’t look for live scent , so whoever commissioned these dogs to search did do so to try and find any evidence of human remains.

The EVRD is trained to located the scent of a dead body . The CSI dog is trained to find human blood and blood is in fact human remains.

So were the dogs correct & did the FSS and the GBSF deliberately mislead the general public ?

Were there actually samples of hair belonging to M , and if so why hide that fact?

Was there DNA evidence in the apartment and on her clothes etc. and if so why disguise the fact.

Was the evidence the Forensic / biological evidence found as a result of the specialist dogs really M's and if so why claim it was inconclusive?

What we're left with is 5 considerations;

1.) either the Forensic results and conclusions were tampered with to get the Mc's off the hook

2.) the FSS & GBFS are useless and botched the whole thing up

3.) the results are factual and there was no DNA or hair samples belonging to MM in PDL

4.) there is something about M's DNA that caused the results to vary .

5.) the DNA & hair samples belonged to someone other than M who was obviously related to the Mc's.

If the results were tampered with, what hook did they need to get the Mc's off .

If the results are correct and there was no DNA or hair evidence belonging to M in PDL then we have to consider the last two possibilities .

It's possible a genetic defect could have caused a variation in the DNA sample , blood chimeraism might account for this or some other genetic problem , but would it account for the mystery of the hair samples .

So that comes down to no.5 which could tie in to no 1 ... I love numbers.

Let's stop a moment and go back to have a little read of our erm ... metaphor:

A match between a crime scene sample and an individual would be a very rare event if the individual was not the true source of the crime scene sample.

A rare event, what constitutes a rare event? Could it be something to do with something or someone special ?

Could there be something that made someone very special?

Someone & something so special it would be like opening Pandora's Box if the truth ever came out ?

One thing is certain , there was according to the GBFS no hairs found in PDL belonging to M.

They do not appear to have recovered any genetic DNA evidence in PDL belonging to M.

The DNA evidence found as result of the EVRD & CSI dogs proved to be inconclusive according to the FSS .

This I believe narrows things down to 2 other considerations ;

1 There is no evidence other than the word of the MC's & family , their friends and tampered with photographs to prove it was definitely MM in PDL - realistically when we piece all this together there is actually more evidence to indicate that it was a different child to the one who's heel stick & saliva samples were retrieved from the UK.

2 It was the same child whose heal stick & saliva samples came from the UK, but there was a need to hide her true DNA .

These 2 considerations IMO boil down to one thing , there is an issue with this child’s genetic make up and that could be something as simple as blood chimeraism or something as complex as artificial embryo twinning or a combination of both .

We know or have been told , that M. had a genetic defect , though we haven’t really considered it as such , but her coloboma , if she had one was a genetic defect.

Were there any other things the Mc's haven’t told us about M's genetics ? Have these Doctors been playing God ?

I'm just going to touch on something called - Artificial Embryo Twinning: Once an egg has been fertilised by sperm it soon starts dividing. When it divides into separate embryos and the cells are separated , those cells can be implanted into separate mothers and almost identical twins will then be born .- Dizygotic twins.

This isn't Sci Fi, it's another type of IVF, and many studies are being done on this subject and on the children born as a result of this process . the children are called Dizygotic twins - DZ twins like any other siblings, don't necessarily have the exact same chromosome profile. Like any other siblings, DZ twins may look similar , but that’s as far as it goes

- DZ twins do not necessarily have exact same chromosome profile .

Back again to our little metaphor ;

A match between a crime scene sample and an individual would be a very rare event if the individual was not the true source of the crime scene sample

I'd like to read something to you now -it may be related to this case or it may not, but it certainly makes you wonder .

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

The Vatican on - Human cloning

Human cloning refers to “the asexual or agametic reproduction of the entire human organism in order to produce one or more ‘copies’ which, from a genetic perspective, are substantially identical to the single original” (n. 28). The techniques which have been proposed for accomplishing human cloning are artificial embryo twinning, which “consists in the artificial separation of individual cells or groups of cells from the embryo in the earliest stage of development… which are then transferred into the uterus in order to obtain identical embryos in an artificial manner” (
footnote 47) and cell nuclear transfer, which “consists in introducing a nucleus taken from an embryonic or somatic cell into an denucleated oocyte. This is followed by stimulation of the oocyte so that it begins to develop as an embryo” (footnote 47). Cloning is proposed for two basic purposes: reproduction, that is, in order to obtain the birth of a baby, and medical therapy or research.

Human cloning is “intrinsically illicit in that…it seeks to give rise to a new human being without a connection to the act of reciprocal self-giving between the spouses and, more radically, without any link to sexuality. This leads to manipulation and abuses gravely injurious to human dignity” (n. 28).

With regard to reproductive cloning, “this would impose on the resulting individual a predetermined genetic identity, subjecting him – as has been stated – to a form of biological slavery, from which it would be difficult to free himself. The fact that someone would arrogate to himself the right to determine arbitrarily the genetic characteristics of another person represents a grave offence to the dignity of that person as well as to the fundamental equality of all people… In the encounter with another person, we meet a human being who owes his existence and his proper characteristics to the love of God, and only the love of husband and wife constitutes a mediation of that love in conformity with the plan of the Creator and heavenly Father” (n. 29).

Okay , let me bring this back on track ....

It’s evident someone has attempted to distort all the facts and evidence surrounding this investigation, and I believe that includes the DNA & genetics of MM .

I think every attempt was made to confuse M's DNA , hence the reports of Amelie wearing M’s clothes and it wouldn't surprise me to learn JT's child wore some of her clothes .

It would be relatively easy for someone to mix up two or three peoples DNA , simply by getting other children to wear the missing child’s clothing for a day or so.

It would be easy to get rid of any hairs from a hairbrush, mix DNA on a toothbrush, change & wash bedding , confuse people about which toys or books belonged to which child etc.

It wouldn't surprise me if the famous Cudle Cat didn't have any traces of MM's DNA on it, hence the need to wash it - not to get rid of any genetic traces of her, but to cover themselves should the police have seized it and discovered that there was nothing on it, or nothing that matched the assembled profile sample - prior to it being washed.

All this is possible - but it still leaves us with the big question - Why? Why the need to go to such lengths to hide this child’s DNA?

What difference would it have made if they found an abundance of her DNA in PDL which provided the authorities with a genetic profile ....

I've no doubts about Eddie and Keela's abilities, and I believe a body was present in that apartment & possibly the hire vehicle . Common sense tells us that there is only one person that we know of that’s missing and the investigation has shown that no one else died in the apartment.

I believe that person was MM , but I'm puzzled as to why anyone or why everyone and when I say everyone I’m not only referring to the MC’s & friends, needed to cover up her genetic make up.

The McCanns and their friends appear to have been afforded the highest protection , from government to wealthy sources who have invested millions in genetics. Sadly Madeleine wasn’t afforded any protection!

We know for certain that there was a long delay with the FSS‘s results , there had to be a reason for this happening and I suspect it was due to the ‘ mix up ‘ in establishing M’s genetic profile. This delay , if intentional did nothing but hinder and stall the investigation of a missing child.

On 5 April 2007, a month before Madeleine went missing , the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee published a report on Government proposals in relation to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill following a short inquiry...coincidence, maybe...
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by dragonfly on 18.11.11 23:52

interesting very raelian Territory

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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Daisy on 19.11.11 0:18

Fascinating, absolutely fascinating. This person is making a lot of sense to me. I'm going to print it off and read through it again before commenting further. Thanks for posting.

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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by aiyoyo on 19.11.11 2:33

Fascinating, but hard to fathom why mccanns were singled out to use their child for the experience, if what is what Q was implying.

One thing is still unexplained : so who died in apt 5a if not Maddie? Whose child died there?

5A void of Maddie's DNA, FSS blotching or interfered with, Mccanns deliberate attempts to obsfucate or manipulate crime scene, etc etc... but that still does not explain the cadaver presence.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by joyce1938 on 19.11.11 10:55

ayoyo,just a thought,this is all very complicated it seems . does it mean IT WAS MADDIES DNA ,but the reason it had to be hidden was maybe, the oddness of the results of examination of dna ,and what it could mean to many above and them too ,if some sort of odd proceedures were being tested,THEY WOULD NOT WANT TO GIVE OUT RESULTS ,IN THAT SCENEARIO?.hope this makes sense? joyce1938
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 19.11.11 12:02

Another good post Q. My thoughts exactly.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by aiyoyo on 19.11.11 17:17

@joyce1938 wrote:ayoyo,just a thought,this is all very complicated it seems . does it mean IT WAS MADDIES DNA ,but the reason it had to be hidden was maybe, the oddness of the results of examination of dna ,and what it could mean to many above and them too ,if some sort of odd proceedures were being tested,THEY WOULD NOT WANT TO GIVE OUT RESULTS ,IN THAT SCENEARIO?.hope this makes sense? joyce1938

The whole point rested in who died in 5A if not Maddie?

If the belief is another child was used as substitute for Maddie, surely the child still have to be accounted for? Whose child was it? Who had allowed their child to be used by the experimental team? Whose child died in 5A?
According to MW there is no history of anyone dying in 5A prior to mccanns occupation, so if the dogs had marked cadaver and it wasnt Maddie, whose was it then and why was the death not accounted for.
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An Appendix received today from 'Q'

Post by Tony Bennett on 19.11.11 21:50

APPENDIX A: SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION PROVIDED TODAY BY 'Q':


Below is an example from the Forensics report which clearly indicates that samples of hair recovered from 3 tops belonging to the child in PDL weren’t considered to match Madeleine’s hair.

Strangely, even though they could not match these hair samples to Madeleine, they went ahead and used them as reference samples to compare to the hairs found in the Scenic. – which realistically could only result in there being no way of determining who the hair samples from the Scenic belonged to.


‘ a total number of twelve [12] hairs or hair fragments were recovered from the tops SJM/2, SJM/4 and SJM/5. All of these appeared to be hair and not down, being mainly blonde in colour. One of the hairs was brown and distinctly darker than the other hairs, suggesting at the least, that this was a hair from someone else. ‘

The remaining 11 (eleven hairs/fragments) varied in length from 4 millimetres to 45 millimetres [~1/8; to ~1,3/4 ]. I could not conclude that all hairs were from the same person. If they had been from Madeleine McCann, then they are not representative / typical / characteristic of a sample of her hair, given the length of that seen in photographs of her.’

‘ I received [obtained] information from the pillow-case SJM/1, the tops SJM2, 4 and 5, and the hairbrush SJM/36 belonging to Madeleine McCann or used by her. The hair found on these objects was used in substitution of [in place of] reference samples of her hair, [which were] not considered to be authentic samples of her hair.’

Conclusion

In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests, it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann .’


*So if these really were 3 of Madeleine’s tops and 12 hairs were found on them and they weren’t Madeleine’s hairs,….. then who else was wearing those tops in PDL ?

An interesting sample

With respect to any evidence taken from the garden area of apartment 5A, sample 420D/2007-CR/L

- 1 labelled envelope with delivery note n° 420D/2007-CR/L:
Vestigio:
Vg25 - "Sundry head-hair" - 11 hairs.

VESTIGIOS delivered by Policia Judiciaria on 14/12/2007:


Unless I am mistaken, there is only one reference to 11hairs, but they seem to have put these with the results of (286C/2007-CR/L): which is in relation to sample found in the Renault Scenic.


Determine if …..“ 11 originate from ante mortem or post-mortem deposition; “

Note ; * those hairs were compared to samples taken from tops (SJM2, 4 and 5) belonging to M. ?

APPENDIX B: SOME MORE THOUGHTS FROM 'Q'

This is very interesting;

“ On 12 October 2007, the Forensic Science Service received a blood spot in a cardboard frame (object JRB/1) from Leicestershire Constabulary. That object was inside a sealed package.”

The FSS Report is dated 6th September ?

What isn't clear is whether or not the FSS used the sample from the pillow case as a reference sample to compare against any evidentiary samples or if a familial sample was used.

The blood sample seems to have emerged later and served to act as a definite DNA comparison sample which confirmed the pillow case sample was DNA from the victim - but only after the results were done.

The first item is the Lowe "memorandum" dated 3 September 2007, while the second appears to be the 'first' FSS report which is dated 6 September 2007.

Okay, let's just forget the blood sample for a moment because that wasn’t used or around to be used as a reference sample .

If they used the sample from the pillowcase as the reference sample would they conclusively be able to determine at that time if it belonged to M.? Keeping in mind they didn’t have another sample of hers to compare it to as the blood sample came later.

Therefore would any analysis, results and conclusions have to reflect exactly that

In other words is it possible that at the time of the analysis they could only consider matching the common / familial components because there was no way they could have determined whether or not any other of the components belonged to Madeleine , simply because they did not have the blood sample to compare anything to until later when the results / conclusions were completed ? ... if so - DNA profiling as evidence of genetic relationshipbased on respective DNA profiles showing predictable biological inheritance patterns which identify relatedness ( common markers ) between parents and children / siblings / close family is not sufficient to prove that an evidence sample specifically belonged to Madeleine.

Another two important factors

1. According to the FSS a database of DNA profiles from all scientific staff is used to screen results before they are searched.

-This information is relevant in relation to the report which specifically indicates that contributors of one sample could be scientists, rather than clarifying that the analysis of the sample was found to contain only common components / markers.

"The expert said the components of the missing girl's DNA profile were not unique to her - in fact some were present among FSS scientists, including himself."

2. Also according to the FSS when using LCN as a means of testing samples each sample is divided into three parts and two of these are tested. The third is retained for further testing in the event of a failure or to confirm the presence of a mixture.

-Does this then pose the question as to whether or not there is another one or possibly two sets of results and if that is the case which set of results have been released ?

More to follow.
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A message from Dave U. Random

Post by Tony Bennett on 19.11.11 22:01

Occasionally, in response to posts, I get messages on my home e-mail from one 'Dave U. Random'.

This one arrived as from: "Dave U. Random"
I have never seen fit to re-publish any of them, but on this occasion I will. This (in caps just as shown below)was received from him/her this evening:

ON HAVERNS.FORUMOTION:

TONY BENNETT AKA Q SAYS:

Q WANTS TO KNOW WHY NONE OF MADELEINE’S DNA WAS FOUND IN APARTMENT 5A OCEAN CLUB

WELL, Q, IN THE PJ FILES, WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT NONE OF M’S DNA WAS FOUND IN APARTMENT 5A?

WE HAVE READ ALL THE FILES RELATING TO THE DNA AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY SUCH STATEMENT.

..... AND WHERE IS THE REFERENCE TO MADELEINE’S HEAL PRICK (a blood test)? YOUR OWN MADE UP REF?

THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING THE CONFIRMED KNOWN DNA OF MADELEINE, IE. SOMETHING THAT ONLY SHE HAD CONTACT WITH,

IE THE PILLOW FROM ROTHLEY WAS FOR FUTURE REFERENCE AS AND WHEN HER BODY IS FOUND AND CAN BE IDENTIFIED AS MADELEINE

BY COMPARING WITH THE CONFIRMED DNA.

THE PJ WOULD NOT WASTE TIME TRYING TO LIFT MADELEINE’S DNA FROM EVERY CORNER OF 5A WHERE MADELEINE PLUS HER FAMILY WERE KNOWN TO BE LIVING.

SHE LIVED, PLAYED, ATE AND SLEPT IN 5A. IT IS A CERTAINTY THAT HER DNA WOULD BE LEFT IN 5A. HER DNA WOULD NOT NEED TO BE RECORDED IN THE FILES

AS SOMETHING TO BE INVESTIGATED. THE MYSTERY IS THAT NOTHING EXISTS OF MADELEINE OUTSIDE OF APARTMENT 5A, DNA, BLOOD OR A BODY. THE INVESTIGATION BEGINS OUTSIDE OF 5A.

OBTAINING A MIXTURE OF DNA FROM A FAMILY OF FIVE, PLUS HUNDREDS OF OTHER TENANTS OF 5A WOULD ACCOMPLISH NOTHING. ONE CANNOT UNMIX A CAKE INTO ITS ORIGINAL

COMPONENTS AND ONE CANNOT IDENTIFY AND SEPARATE MADELEINE’S DNA FROM A MIXTURE OF 4 OF HER RELATIVES. (PLUS FRIENDS AND TENANTS OF 5A)


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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by littlepixie on 19.11.11 22:43

How on earth do criminals ever get arrested and taken to Court if it is impossible to separate one persons DNA from another on an object. What a load of old rubbish the email from Dave U Random is.

I have seen the OP before and I believe there is something very wrong with the results from the FSS. I believe they were tampered with. I also believe there is more than one child involved in this case as pictures of more than one child were released and called Madeleine.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by jd on 20.11.11 0:35

Dave U Random is clearly involved at some level in the scam and his cage has been rattled for sailing too near the truth!

Thanks Tony for posting up this paper from Q. Very very interesting, and I have learnt a lot about the analysis of DNA

A quote (from a list of many) that caught my attention in particular...A nuclear DNA match of loci permits little doubt that a questioned sample has come from a known individual, except in the case of identical twins....another type of IVF, and many studies are being done on this subject and on the children born as a result of this process . the children are called Dizygotic twins - DZ twins like any other siblings, don't necessarily have the exact same chromosome profile. Like any other siblings, DZ twins may look similar , but that’s as far as it goes........The McCanns and their friends appear to have been afforded the highest protection , from government to wealthy sources who have invested millions in genetics

One thing that has always struck me in this scam are the lookalikes. Murat, Payne. Symington.. Maddie and Murats daughter, Oldfield/Pennington, amelie and sean etc The Irwins sisters who were there that night at the Tapas restaurant, who we can't speak about and have never had their statement released...wasn't one of them pregnant? gerrys sisters not having kids, kate having IVF. In some way a bigger picture forms...

Putting the DNA analysis into other factual information about this case

We have a family holiday in PDL for 9 friends and all their kids. By the end of the week long holiday we have:
• NO photos of the family together there (including kate)
• NO photos of mother and daughter
• NO photos of any of the friends with Maddie
• NO photos of Maddie with any other child except the doctored poolside picture
• All that has been released from PDL holiday are 4 very dodgy photos which only has gerry as the parent in 2 of them
• We do have photos of Maddie with her cousins and brother/sister from a holiday taken a month prior, yet in these photos her twin brother/sister have aged considerably to the next month in PDL! A year later her 2 cousins have also grown YOUNGER too! (maybe they are clones too!!)
• The poolside photo was only released after gerry had been back to the UK

Now on to DNA:
There appears to be,
• NO samples from PDL of Maddie that can be used as her DNA profile
• The samples of hair taken were considered not representative of a sample of her hair because they didn't match photographs of her hair or were too short in length to do mtDNA tests
• NO sample could be taken from Maddies toothbrush because she and the twins all shared the same one!
• It wasn't possible to use the same method to create an actual genetic profile for Madeleine so instead of attempting to create one from genetic evidence found on items of clothing she wore , toys she played with or anything else personal to her that she used in PDL, the authorities went back to the UK to Rothley to try and find a sample from her home & found the stain on a pillow case ( believed to be saliva ) Ref. (SJM/1) in the FSS report

There is NOTHING from the holiday that is proof that Madeleine Beth McCann was ever there, not even the normal simple things every single family holiday has

• Why were no recent photos of Maddie released immediately so the world would know the girl they were looking for actually currently looked?
• Why were there already printed posters available of an old picture of Maddie on best quality photo paper being handed out less than 2 hours after Maddie was reported gone? And on quality paper not available to purchase in PDL
• Why are they taking a memory stick of old photos of Maddie on holiday with them?
* Why did the Ocean Club printer take its own holiday and get abducted too!

Add to all this, how real grieving parents/families behave to such a tragic event. We only have to look at the Milly Dowler and Sarah Payne families as a guide. To this day some 10 years on, and with the truth of what happened known, both are still visibly distraught and on a side note, admired for how they have dealt with their loss. Now look at the mccanns only 9 days after Maddie disappeared

A known kidnap scam was that of Shannon Matthews. The mother behaves with the same characteristics as the mccanns

Then we get the wider question of why the government, top lawyers, millionaires all protecting them using all the power and might they have....using it right down to just normal people who have an opinion in a country that values itself on freedom of speech

• There is no evidence other than the word of the MC's & family , their friends and tampered with photographs to prove it was definitely MM in PDL - realistically when we piece all this together there is actually more evidence to indicate that it was a different child to the one who's heel stick & saliva samples were retrieved from the UK.

Now to me the most interesting part of Q's conclusions 'Artificial Embryo Twinning: Once an egg has been fertilised by sperm it soon starts dividing. When it divides into separate embryos and the cells are separated , those cells can be implanted into separate mothers and almost identical twins will then be born .- Dizygotic twins'.....Wouldn't this just fit perfectly to the facts we know

I have always believed the actual Maddie was never on that holiday and that she died months ago in the UK. Q's analysis has now led me to think that maybe there was an accidental death in apartment 5a during that week. But not Maddie, a girl who was the result of Artificial Embryo Twinning/DZ twin. Maybe (together with the government) they were involved in this practice and scientific discoveries and for whatever reason this is what created the holiday in PDL. But an accident of some sort happened (probably behind the sofa) which resulted of the 'girl' dying which had to be covered up..and quickly. Being honest and truthful of this accidental death created a fear that the following investigations would reveal the truth of something like Artificial Embryo Twinning, and the only way to deflect from this was to create a fake abduction and use the media to make it as convincing as possible. Maddie was the only one that they had materials to use like videos and old pictures to sell the story. Maybe the Irwin sister who was pregnant got pregnant as a result of Artificial Embryo Twinning?

Why the obvious coverup of the DNA?

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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 20.11.11 8:44

I have always wondered why none of the fingerprint reports ever mention 'childrens prints were observed and discounted' on the patio doors. Could this be because they didn't find any?

B - Pages 967-972 Processo vol 4.
At 11:00am on 4 May 2007 I, IT, assistant-specialist, began to examine the following location:


At apartment 5A, Ocean Club:

- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.

- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 20.11.11 8:46

With clean sheets on Madeleine's bed, no DNA or hairs of hers were found there.

It's the most obvious spot in the whole apartment.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 20.11.11 8:47

Madeleine was alleged to have had an accident involving the sofa, but none of her DNA was found there either.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 20.11.11 9:23



Pay very close attention to the kitchen work surfaces here, in the two different shots. Where is the bowl of fruit for 3 children and 2 very healthy adults? Where are the huge boxes of breakfast cerials to feed 5 people? Where are the many loafs of bread, or any packets of anything come to think of it?
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Where is anything???

Post by uppatoffee on 20.11.11 9:46

Looking at those photos Stella I find it impossible to believe that three young children were living in that apartment. Where is the 'stuff? They cannot have eaten at the table as there are no high chairs. Sean and Amelie would definitely have needed high chairs or some kind of tot seat/booster seat. Where are the packs of baby wipes that parents of small children carry by the sack load? The toys and books to keep them amused? A potty for Madeleine? Children create mess and everywhere they go has a lived in feel, especially if there are three! A few strategically hung jumpers do not make a convincing picture IMO.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Bebootje on 20.11.11 10:18

FSS surely played an obscure role in this play.

"The samples of hair taken were considered not representative of a sample
of her hair because they didn't match photographs of her hair or were
too short in length to do mtDNA tests...". To use an excuse that the hairs were considered not representative, because they didn't match photographs..... It is stunning really. It could easily be established to be Madeleines hairs. The hairs of the other living possible owners of the hairs found in the car, could easily be compared. And obtained DNA from the hairs could be compared with the pillow DNA (the reference sample). But just based on some photographs they concluded that there was no need for further investigation. Fishy indeed.

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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 20.11.11 10:26

@uppatoffee wrote:Looking at those photos Stella I find it impossible to believe that three young children were living in that apartment. Where is the 'stuff? They cannot have eaten at the table as there are no high chairs. Sean and Amelie would definitely have needed high chairs or some kind of tot seat/booster seat. Where are the packs of baby wipes that parents of small children carry by the sack load? The toys and books to keep them amused? A potty for Madeleine? Children create mess and everywhere they go has a lived in feel, especially if there are three! A few strategically hung jumpers do not make a convincing picture IMO.

Precisely uppatoffee. That is exactly what we see in a nutshell.

If you combine this with no DNA of not just Madeleine, but any children having been there, you can see exactly where Q and the rest of us are coming from.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 20.11.11 10:30

@Bebootje wrote:FSS surely played an obscure role in this play.

"The samples of hair taken were considered not representative of a sample
of her hair because they didn't match photographs of her hair or were
too short in length to do mtDNA tests...". To use an excuse that the hairs were considered not representative, because they didn't match photographs..... It is stunning really. It could easily be established to be Madeleines hairs. The hairs of the other living possible owners of the hairs found in the car, could easily be compared. And obtained DNA from the hairs could be compared with the pillow DNA (the reference sample). But just based on some photographs they concluded that there was no need for further investigation. Fishy indeed.

Just to clarify this, so as not to cause any confusion, your post is only refering to hairs found in the hire car.

No hairs found in the apartment were attributed to any of the children.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by TrollAng on 20.11.11 10:48

Stella wrote:

Pay very close attention to the kitchen work surfaces here, in the two different shots. Where is the bowl of fruit for 3 children and 2 very healthy adults? Where are the huge boxes of breakfast cerials to feed 5 people? Where are the many loafs of bread, or any packets of anything come to think of it?

Stella, was this taken on 03/05/07?
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Guest on 20.11.11 11:03

@jd wrote:A quote (from a list of many) that caught my attention in particular...A nuclear DNA match of loci permits little doubt that a questioned sample has come from a known individual, except in the case of identical twins....another type of IVF, and many studies are being done on this subject and on the children born as a result of this process . the children are called Dizygotic twins - DZ twins like any other siblings, don't necessarily have the exact same chromosome profile. Like any other siblings, DZ twins may look similar , but that’s as far as it goes........The McCanns and their friends appear to have been afforded the highest protection , from government to wealthy sources who have invested millions in genetics

Yes jd, that little gem of information helped me to to understand a little better why they might have received the uprecedented high level of protection they did.

If she was part of a secret program to help scientists discover ways of repopulating the world in the event of a pandemic. It would go without saying that the British Government at all costs, would have to protect her medical records. A program such as this might also allow certain people in the know to target such a child, knowing full well that they would be shrowded in secrecy for 75 years. Something tells me though it is not this. If it was, Madeleine's body would have been taken care of by the professionals and what was found in the McCann's hire car, tells me they were on there own.
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by joyce1938 on 20.11.11 11:08

i have read from another site where,it was admitted that all hairs were not chosen to be tested as some looked darker/lighter and not correct length,where did rest go and why on earth were not all collected tested?mind boggles joyce1938
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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by joyce1938 on 20.11.11 11:15

just to add to last post of mine ,if there is any likelyhood that some strange procedures are going on and birth of kids with manipulated dna , there is noway that would be allowed to show up ,hence a lot of questions and ffew answers ,so it may have beem maddies demise ,,but the dna results would have to never be found,would give the whole game away hope you can follow what i am saying joyce1938
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I'm confused

Post by TrollAng on 20.11.11 14:35

I find this very confusing. Are we saying:

There was no trace of Madeleine in the apartment because:

1. She was never in 5A
2. Her DNA traces were removed from the apartment (except for the trace evidence under the tiles)
3. They never looked for her DNA
4. The control DNA was wrong

It's unknown what control sample the eddie & keela samples were compared with?

The Rothley pillow sample was compared with Madeleine's heel prick samples just after birth? Is it not illegal to keep these records without permission from the parents. Why would the parents allow them to be kept if there was a problem with Madeleine's DNA? Why did they agree to collect the control sample in Rothley and not in PDL, her DNA should have been all over everything including all of the artwork she did during her hours each day at the creche.

Forensics retrieved 12 hairs from 3 of Madeleine's tops and excluded them all as Madeleine's potential DNA without testing them? This must have seemed more than unusual. Why didn't they then test the tops for skin samples to ascertain the DNA profile of the child who wore the tops?


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Re: (2 Appendices added) 'Q' wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Apt G5A (Long)

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 20.11.11 14:53

A couple of things are bothering me regarding this thread. Two things I cannot understand:

1) Why can a DNA profile not be extracted from a hair, as opposed to a swab from inside the mouth?

2) I can see why people think MM may not have been on the holiday at all, but even if there was a "ringer" involved, wouldn't check in details for the airport sort that one out? A substitute for MM would still have to be checked onto the plane, so where did that child go?

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