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Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

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Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Autumn on 04.01.10 9:36

From the sworn statements to the PJ and LP, so so-called Timeline written in duplicate, written at or about the same time of the first visit by the GNR includes on both, a reference to Jane Tanner's 'sightings'.

A 'sighting' that Jane Tanner alleges she did not tell Gerry untill 3.00 am the following morning.

Gerry McCann was in the apartment when Russell O Brien wrothe the 'Timeline'

Gerry McCann wrote his name on one of the Timelines that included Jane Tanner's sighting.

Gerry McCann wrote his name on a Timeline, that INCLUDED JANE TANNER'S 'SIGHTING', given to the PJ one hour after the alarm was raised.

Gerry McCann fakes shock at only finding out about the 'sighting' 5 hours later.

This is a Fundamental Discrepancy.


Sorry Jill, just noticed your JT thread on this matter - please feel free to delete this :)

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by vaguely on 04.01.10 9:40

Autumn, don't suppose you have a link to where the scribbled time line can be read? I seem to remember the press had got hold of a photo of it a while back.

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Autumn on 04.01.10 14:14

Just noticed Jill's thread, please go to Jill's is it is more informative than this one flower

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by gbwales on 10.08.13 15:33

Hi there smilie 

New here - first post: I'll probably mostly be lurking and learning, but hope you don't mind if I shout up with the occasional question.
Can anyone post the actual link to the other thread that's mentioned here which says it's covered in more detail?
I'd really like to know what else has been said on this or if it's ever been sensibly answered / explained in any way at any point as it is on the face of it a quite bizarre contradiction.

(Purely FYI I've so far been reading through and getting my info mainly from here, mccannfiles.com, and the Amaral book, Pat Brown pieces/book, 60 Questions etc).
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Guest on 10.08.13 16:58

gbwales wrote:Hi there smilie 

New here - first post: I'll probably mostly be lurking and learning, but hope you don't mind if I shout up with the occasional question.
Can anyone post the actual link to the other thread that's mentioned here which says it's covered in more detail?
I'd really like to know what else has been said on this or if it's ever been sensibly answered / explained in any way at any point as it is on the face of it a quite bizarre contradiction.

(Purely FYI I've so far been reading through and getting my info mainly from here, mccannfiles.com, and the Amaral book, Pat Brown pieces/book, 60 Questions etc).


Welcome gbwales.  This may be the one referred to, talking about the sticker book timelines. 
 
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t286-jane-tanner-liar#9769
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by gbwales on 11.08.13 12:58

Brill, cheers for that thumbsup
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Okeydokey on 02.05.17 0:42

Autumn wrote:From the sworn statements to the PJ and LP, so so-called Timeline written in duplicate, written at or about the same time of the first visit by the GNR includes on both, a reference to Jane Tanner's 'sightings'.

A 'sighting' that Jane Tanner alleges she did not tell Gerry untill 3.00 am the following morning.

Gerry McCann was in the apartment when Russell O Brien wrothe the 'Timeline'

Gerry McCann wrote his name on one of the Timelines that included Jane Tanner's sighting.

Gerry McCann wrote his name on a Timeline, that INCLUDED JANE TANNER'S 'SIGHTING',  given to the PJ one hour after the alarm was raised.

Gerry McCann fakes shock at only finding out about the 'sighting' 5 hours later.

This is a Fundamental Discrepancy.


Sorry Jill, just noticed your JT thread on this matter - please feel free to delete this  :)
It's always seemed odd to me that JT (so convinced she had witnessed an abduction once she knew MMcC was missing) was so slow in informing first Kate and then Gerry (not sure she ever claimed to have informed the latter directly). But even more so - why did she not immediately lead searchers in the direction she saw the "abductor" carrying the child she now knew to be Madeleine...why did she let the search just carry on in all directions as described by witnesses? 

I had never quite realised though how fundamental this particular discrepancy is...if JT claims it took so long for the McCanns to be informed about what she saw how come is this in the original timeline...

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Verdi on 02.05.17 0:52

Okeydokey wrote:
Autumn wrote:From the sworn statements to the PJ and LP, so so-called Timeline written in duplicate, written at or about the same time of the first visit by the GNR includes on both, a reference to Jane Tanner's 'sightings'.

A 'sighting' that Jane Tanner alleges she did not tell Gerry untill 3.00 am the following morning.

Gerry McCann was in the apartment when Russell O Brien wrothe the 'Timeline'

Gerry McCann wrote his name on one of the Timelines that included Jane Tanner's sighting.

Gerry McCann wrote his name on a Timeline, that INCLUDED JANE TANNER'S 'SIGHTING',  given to the PJ one hour after the alarm was raised.

Gerry McCann fakes shock at only finding out about the 'sighting' 5 hours later.

This is a Fundamental Discrepancy.


Sorry Jill, just noticed your JT thread on this matter - please feel free to delete this  :)
It's always seemed odd to me that JT (so convinced she had witnessed an abduction once she knew MMcC was missing) was so slow in informing first Kate and then Gerry (not sure she ever claimed to have informed the latter directly). But even more so - why did she not immediately lead searchers in the direction she saw the "abductor" carrying the child she now knew to be Madeleine...why did she let the search just carry on in all directions as described by witnesses? 

I had never quite realised though how fundamental this particular discrepancy is...if JT claims it took so long for the McCanns to be informed about what she saw how come is this in the original timeline...


The timeline drawn up the group on the night of 3rd May 2007 - Madeleine McCann's sticker book cover.

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by BlueBag on 02.05.17 8:04

Verdi wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
Autumn wrote:From the sworn statements to the PJ and LP, so so-called Timeline written in duplicate, written at or about the same time of the first visit by the GNR includes on both, a reference to Jane Tanner's 'sightings'.

A 'sighting' that Jane Tanner alleges she did not tell Gerry untill 3.00 am the following morning.

Gerry McCann was in the apartment when Russell O Brien wrothe the 'Timeline'

Gerry McCann wrote his name on one of the Timelines that included Jane Tanner's sighting.

Gerry McCann wrote his name on a Timeline, that INCLUDED JANE TANNER'S 'SIGHTING',  given to the PJ one hour after the alarm was raised.

Gerry McCann fakes shock at only finding out about the 'sighting' 5 hours later.

This is a Fundamental Discrepancy.


Sorry Jill, just noticed your JT thread on this matter - please feel free to delete this  :)
It's always seemed odd to me that JT (so convinced she had witnessed an abduction once she knew MMcC was missing) was so slow in informing first Kate and then Gerry (not sure she ever claimed to have informed the latter directly). But even more so - why did she not immediately lead searchers in the direction she saw the "abductor" carrying the child she now knew to be Madeleine...why did she let the search just carry on in all directions as described by witnesses? 

I had never quite realised though how fundamental this particular discrepancy is...if JT claims it took so long for the McCanns to be informed about what she saw how come is this in the original timeline...


The timeline drawn up the group on the night of 3rd May 2007 - Madeleine McCann's sticker book cover.
Why does the 9.15 line have a question mark?

Why is Matthew's 9.00 check of all three windows detailed (obviously from Matt himself - who else?) and his check at 9.30 is missing?

What the hell is this?

You would hope any conscientious policeman in the UK would want to know who wrote this and how the information got on this page.
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Mirage on 02.05.17 9:11

"Sees stranger walking, carrying child"

First thing that strikes me is the present tense. This reminds me of stage directions and is off the scale abnormal before you start. Here are a group of able-bodied adults with high fitness levels hearing of a sighting right outside the apartment they're sitting in ... and the direction of travel. Yet they continue on past this point with their paper and pencil exercise.

It infuriates me that, taken together with all the ridiculous rogatories, this lot weren't arrested on the spot and taken to separate police stations when SY opened their investigation.

Let's assume you are dozy enough to waste precious time on a timeline during the golden hour, then use the information to run off, in their words "like headless chickens", wouldn't  you at least write "Jane saw stranger carrying child" - past tense.

The time line, if they were pedantic enough  to do it, would have ended right there, probably with an involuntary pencil mark down the page as everyone pushed their chairs back and rushed off, leaving 5a looking like the Marie Celeste.

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by ChippyM on 02.05.17 9:18

'All Assembled at poolside for food'  

that also sounds a bit like a stage direction or a military operation!

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Phoebe on 02.05.17 9:58

The above time line doesn't feature Matt's 9.30 pm check at all. The second timeline, if I remember correctly says "Matt, did he check?". I think Matt's check was an invention to keep up the idea of "responsible parenting" and while they were happy he would lie about this they were pretty sure he would not agree to having been the last to see Madeleine. The notion of sitting down wasting time on this while a kidnapper makes off with the child is enough to tell any sane person there was no abduction. This was a rehearsal to get stories straight before the police asked these questions.
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by BlueBag on 02.05.17 11:56

 "Matt, did he check?".

Well Matt had already told them that ALL shutters were down at 9.00 pm (emphasized).

He must have forgot about the 9.30 check.

Like I said... where is the bog-standard policing?

Were these written pages discussed in the rogatory interviews?
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by plebgate on 02.05.17 11:59

ChippyM wrote:'All Assembled at poolside for food'  

that also sounds a bit like a stage direction or a military operation!
Sound like the drinkies were forgotten.

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Verdi on 02.05.17 12:02








Timeline 1 (as per sticker book above)

 

8:45. pm

 

Matt returns 9.00-9.05 - listened at all 3

                               - all shutters down

 

Jerry 9.10-9.15 in the room + all well

                      ? did he check
 
9.20/5 - Ella Jane checked 5D sees stranger & child


9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check all 3

9.35 - Matt check see twins

9.50 - Russ returns

9.55 - Kate realised Madeleine

10pm - Alarm raised

Timeline 2 (as per sticker book above)

8.45pm. all assembled at poolside for food
 
9.00pm. Matt Oldfield listens at all 3 windows 5A, B, D ALL shutters down
 
9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room A ? Door open to bedroom
 
9:20pm Jane Tanner checks 5D - [sees stranger walking carrying a child]
 
9.30 Russell O'Brien in 5D. Poorly daughter
  l
9.55pm
 
10:00pm. Alarm raised after Kate
 
Gerald

Madeleine's book

Madeleine's parents ripped off both covers, the front and the back, from a book belonging to Madeleine, in order to write on the inside the timing for each person. Russell O'Brien was involved with the drawing up of the timing. The book was seized by the GNR on the night of the disappearance. These covers would be attached to the case file, as elements of the investigation, on September 7th 2007, although seized during the night of 3rd to 4th May. Here are the terms on which the seizure document was based.

Terms of seizure:

At this time, it is considered of interest to the investigation to attach to the present deed, two covers of a child's book, on the inside covers of which is a schedule for supervision, hand-written by one of the McCann couple's group of friends and participant in this deed by name of Russell O'Brien.
 
[Acknowledgement pamalam]

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by BlueBag on 02.05.17 12:24

Which timeline was written first?

An interested policeman would have a lot of questions about this.
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Verdi on 02.05.17 12:48

BlueBag wrote:An interested policeman would have a lot of questions about this.
There is the key!  The UK establishment have never shown any interest in solving the mystery of Madeleine McCann's disappearance from the face of the earth - I venture to suggest, because they already know.

Ex-DCI Redwood and his successors, totally ignored the PJ investigation.  I'd go so far as to say they have deliberately steered attention away from reality into a fog of fabrication.  It's criminal!

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Mirage on 02.05.17 13:12

So Matthew Oldfield's 9.30 check was missing from one of these two timelines.

Funny that, because  another discrepancy in Matthew Oldfield's timeline occurred when Dianne Webster told the PJ she hadn't met anyone coming down to the tapas bar when he was evidently en route to chivvy them along. Then a year later it's something she's anxious  to change at her rogatory. Apparently, she'd remembered in the interim that she had seen Matthew Oldfield coming up as her group were making their way down.  A case of improving memory with the elapse of time. Not enough to stir a policing instinct at Leicester though.

Oldfield's testimony contains two references to headless chicken behaviour. But memory kicks in somewhere during the running around in the headless chickens phase so that he is able to note a street name and recall it in his rogatory a year later:

'erm, and so we ran out on that, I think this road unfortunately is called, erm, which road is it, Cemetery Road I think it's called, I seem to remember noticing it because it seemed like a horrible, I think it's this bit here'.

Think of all the red flags in this case. If we got a manufacturer to make and string them all together they would go round New Scotland Yard several times. Quite a festoon in fact.

No wonder they prefer to be called a service rather than a force these days.  The customer is always right in the service industry.

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Phoebe on 02.05.17 13:33

Thanks Verdi for putting those up. So it was Gerry, not Matt that the "did he check" refers to. The puzzle is did he check WHAT? The first time line says "in the room all well" so if all was well what else was he to check? The second says with regard to Gerry's 9.15 check "Gerry McCann looks at room A, door open to bedroom". No word of Gerry's proud father moment when he actually stands looking down at Madeleine. Both timelines have Jane see a man carrying a child so why would she ever describe it as a bundle that might have been a child? The fact that Op. Grange is happily ignoring these discrepancies says a lot!
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by dartinghero on 02.05.17 14:00

Verdi wrote:






Timeline 1 (as per sticker book above)

 

8:45. pm

 

Matt returns 9.00-9.05 - listened at all 3

                               - all shutters down

 

Jerry 9.10-9.15 in the room + all well

                      ? did he check
 
9.20/5 - Ella Jane checked 5D sees stranger & child


9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check all 3

9.35 - Matt check see twins

9.50 - Russ returns

9.55 - Kate realised Madeleine

10pm - Alarm raised

Timeline 2 (as per sticker book above)

8.45pm. all assembled at poolside for food
 
9.00pm. Matt Oldfield listens at all 3 windows 5A, B, D ALL shutters down
 
9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room A ? Door open to bedroom
 
9:20pm Jane Tanner checks 5D - [sees stranger walking carrying a child]
 
9.30 Russell O'Brien in 5D. Poorly daughter
  l
9.55pm
 
10:00pm. Alarm raised after Kate
 
Gerald

Madeleine's book

Madeleine's parents ripped off both covers, the front and the back, from a book belonging to Madeleine, in order to write on the inside the timing for each person. Russell O'Brien was involved with the drawing up of the timing. The book was seized by the GNR on the night of the disappearance. These covers would be attached to the case file, as elements of the investigation, on September 7th 2007, although seized during the night of 3rd to 4th May. Here are the terms on which the seizure document was based.

Terms of seizure:

At this time, it is considered of interest to the investigation to attach to the present deed, two covers of a child's book, on the inside covers of which is a schedule for supervision, hand-written by one of the McCann couple's group of friends and participant in this deed by name of Russell O'Brien.
 
[Acknowledgement pamalam]
Looking at the hand written Timeline 1, does it say
9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check *all* 3 or *ON* 3?
If it's all 3, all 3 what? All 3 apartments (A, B, D) as earlier, because there are more than 3 children? If so why the separate entry for checking the twins?
Am I reading too much into this or is it odd wording?
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by liars a to e on 02.05.17 17:29

I have always wondered which timeline was written first. Was MO written in or written out? Gerry's did he check? Could mean the shutters.
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Okeydokey on 05.05.17 0:05

A working assumption might be that Timeline One with only first names was a working draft and Timeline Two (with surnames included) was meant to form the basis for the "official" Team McCann version. Not that resolves the very puzzling features of both.

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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by Phoebe on 05.05.17 11:14

Matthew Oldfield's first statement of 4/5/07 is a goldmine. he states -


"That around 9.05pm, the interviewee went to the area of the apartments. Notably to the area near the windows of all the children's bedrooms. That he did not hear any noise. That he considered that all the children were sleeping. That all the children's bedroom windows were closed, NOTABLY the windows that gave access to the bedroom occupied by Madeleine." 


Sorry Heiriberto, Matt specifically says Madeleine's bedroom window was closed, so no way to put a paw in and lift the shutters. 


 "As normal, dinner began at 9.30pm." so why book for 8.30 and sit for an hour twiddling their thumbs? Why the urgency to "chivvy" the Payne's along when they were not there by 9pm?  
  
"He states that the bedroom has two windows. The twins occupy two cots placed in the middle of the room and Madeleine occupies a bed pushed against the wall, facing the wall which has the two windows that look out onto the outside of the complex." 


TWO windows ??


It seems to me Richard Bilton should have re interviewed the Tapas 7 who definitely might be able to shed some light on the events of that night, rather than filling space with men already proven to know nothing by the P.J. Why have the Tapas 7 been allowed to drop out of sight? They are a crucial part of this "case of the century" yet BBC and Sky behave as is they were never there. Time to get the Tapas 7 talking again eh Operation Grange? After all, they are key witnesses to what unfolded and identifying crechedad does not change that.
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Re: Fundamental Discrepancy in The Timeline

Post by BlueBag on 05.05.17 11:49

Why have the Tapas 7 been allowed to drop out of sight?
Pact of silence.


Any independent journalist worth his salt would be knocking on their door.
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