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Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

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Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 06.09.12 11:16

This follows on from previous posts in the Blacksmith libel topic. It was going off topic madly so...
I think it's the best explanation of the abduction scenario and the disasters that befell Gerry on the way. I've been rather dense about this, but of course the timelines were adjusted after 10.00 pm, when Gerry's anonymity was shot to pieces by 9 curious Irish people. The abduction call would have been originally at 9.45 which would fit in with a sighting by hopefully one or two people leaving a bar in the PdL area - one independent witness or witnesses.
JW was no problem until after 10.00 p.m., when Gerry came back, hastily changed into jeans and threw the beige pants on the bed. The Smiths would have to be ignored if they came forward, the abduction must happen earlier and now JW is fantastically useful. the Smiths' sighting is now too late to be credible - even for the police.
But by ignoring it the McCanns actually pointed at it. By lying about the distance from 5a as well, it begins to look as it the Smiths were 100% right.

So here - from those clever Germans! is the theory:


All friends were assembled at the restaurant table at 21:00. At 21:15 Jane would have listened at the windows and at 21:30 Matthew would have done the same listening check at the windows later to confirm that the shutters had still been intact at that time. This would have narrowed down the timeframe for the abduction to 21:30-21:45. During this time all members of the group would have been at the table confirmed by the waiters and Dianne Webster. A sufficient alibi for the whole group for that timeframe. No lies necessary, just feigning ignorance.

But why the change of plan? Why was the time of the abduction brought forward to the time BEFORE Matthew's check? Because only then an independent witness was present who had seen Gerry and who could be used to construct an alibi for the time of the abduction. With the help of a simultaneous sighting by Jane of Gerry, Wilkins and the abductor. But what had made the second alibi necessary? Why did the first plan not suffice? The reason can only have been the meeting with 9 members of the Smith family.

This logic chain shall serve as a summary:

The encounter with the Smith family
-> necessity of an independent alibi for the time of the abduction
-> the only independent witness is Jeremy Wilkins at 21:15
-> Jane's sighting of the abductor at the same time
-> necessity to bring forward the abduction that was originally planned for 21:30-21:45
-> Matt can not be allowed to listen at the window but has to check INSIDE the apartment because otherwise he would have noticed the open window
-> the patiodoors have to be open now to facilitate his entry

Apart from this the discovery of the abduction had to be moved by a quater of an hour to 22:00 to exactly coincide with the Smith sighting and Matthew has to see a tiny bit of light during his check. Enough to "prove" that the abduction had already happened but not enough to get suspicious and raise the alarm.

This original plan and it's necessary changes explain a lot of the oddities and changes in the statements and the timeline regarding the evening:

- the belated opening of the patio doors
- the physical check by Matt which was contrary to all previous checks as Dianne Webster confirmed
- the completely wrong description of apartment 5A by Matthew Oldfield
- the never convincing description of the eggman encounter by Jane Tanner
- the two timelines one with and one without Matt's check
- the fact that the Smith Sighting of the possible abductor was never used like all other sightings were
- the time of the first alarm by Kate at the table of the restaurant at 21:45/50 fits much better in all timelines of the evening.


Eingestellt von Johanna um 13:39

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/2011/08/der-plan.html

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 13:39

Maybe I dont read it right , but did not the smith see the person at 21.50 ? So if they changed the story and the alarm was raised at 2200 that is not much time . Does that mean the smith sighting then was one of the tapas men carrying M and was not supposed to be seen ? And that person where back when the alarm was raised ? Would they raise the alarm if not all where present ? The fact that they have not used their sighting the same way as other sounds like they are afraid of that sighting..got a little confused here ..lot of questions I know :)
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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 13:44

Moa it has been my belief for some time that the man seen by Mr Smith was Gerry McCann carrying a very much alive Ella O Brien.
The behaviour re the beach trip of the O Brien couple earlier that day is strange, and the O Brien pair were moving between tapas bar and apartments around alleged abduction time.

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 13:46

@russiandoll wrote: Moa it has been my belief for some time that the man seen by Mr Smith was Gerry McCann carrying a very much alive Ella O Brien.
The behaviour re the beach trip of the O Brien couple earlier that day is strange, and the O Brien pair were moving between tapas bar and apartments around alleged abduction time.

But IF that was right then I guess they wanted to be seen as to look like an abductor. And therefor no reason to change the story ? So you then don't agree with the theory from German ?
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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 13:56

Moa wrote:Maybe I dont read it right , but did not the smith see the person at 21.50 ? So if they changed the story and the alarm was raised at 2200 that is not much time . Does that mean the smith sighting then was one of the tapas men carrying M and was not supposed to be seen ? And that person where back when the alarm was raised ? Would they raise the alarm if not all where present ? The fact that they have not used their sighting the same way as other sounds like they are afraid of that sighting..got a little confused here ..lot of questions I know :)

I have looked at the Martin Smith witness statement, and he states it was 10pm............

Urged, states that when he passed this individual it would have been around 22H00, and at the time he was completely unaware that a child had disappeared

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 06.09.12 13:56

Moa wrote:Maybe I dont read it right , but did not the smith see the person at 21.50 ? So if they changed the story and the alarm was raised at 2200 that is not much time . Does that mean the smith sighting then was one of the tapas men carrying M and was not supposed to be seen ? And that person where back when the alarm was raised ? Would they raise the alarm if not all where present ? The fact that they have not used their sighting the same way as other sounds like they are afraid of that sighting..got a little confused here ..lot of questions I know :)

I think the time given was 9.55. That would be about right if the abduction would have happened at 9.45 which is what Johanna says. I think her arguments make very good sense.
It was the fact that Gerry was surrounded by about 9 people who took an interest and asked him a question! What he needed was a sighting of a man with a child by a stranger - most likely it would have been a couple leaving a bar. Easy to hide your face. PdL only had about 1000 inhabitants and few tourists - he must have been relieved that the PJ didn't get a report from the Smiths very soon. By the end of May when they did report it, things had changed in Gerry's favour.

Basically they wanted to present the PJ with a series of facts and at least one independent witness.
Windows open, shutters up, cuddlecat and blanket - Kate 100% sure 'they've taken her'
Witness from PdL comes forward, has seen man carrying child, 9.55. Gerry will have the Tapas' alibi him for that time.

So I'd like to find those witness statements who say that the calling began earlier and the waiter who said they left the table earlier as well. I think it's possible that plan nr. 1 was adhered to until Gerry was panicked by the Smith sighting and thought to be clever and use JW instead.
Only then did they sit down and draw up the two timelines. Gerry does think he's clever - we all know people like that.

The beige pants on the bed - ignoring the Smiths' statements - lying about the distance to PdL, it all points to the same thing. For it was the most definite sighting of the lot, even to what she was wearing and her approx. age. If the abduction had been a fact, they'd have turned PdL and the street where she was last seen upside down.
By pushing the abduction back to 9.15 it also made the time of the sighting too late. 3/4 of an hour for a max. ten minute walk.

(whilst I was scribbling away CF gave the right time. 10.00)

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 14:04

Moa wrote:
@russiandoll wrote: Moa it has been my belief for some time that the man seen by Mr Smith was Gerry McCann carrying a very much alive Ella O Brien.
The behaviour re the beach trip of the O Brien couple earlier that day is strange, and the O Brien pair were moving between tapas bar and apartments around alleged abduction time.

But IF that was right then I guess they wanted to be seen as to look like an abductor. And therefor no reason to change the story ? So you then don't agree with the theory from German ?

Hello Moa.
I will have to read that theory again. It makes a lot of sense but I have forgotten the theory re the Smith sighting. I certainly do not believe Mr Smith saw Gerry carrying his deceased daughter as some people do. I believe that the man carrying the girl wanted to be seen, hence the walk with the child , but not in the way it happened with the Irish family.


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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 14:05

Thanks for clearing up for me tigger, I got the point know and the pieces I was missing felt in place .

Not a Bad theory may very well be it...I always found it strange that they payed so little attention to the smith sighting.

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 14:22

I found this re the Smith sighting, Moa.... seems the theory is that Gerry was the man witnessed with a child... have not got time to read it all but will go back and see if this theory is same as mine that the child was Ella because I am curious.

The evening at the Tapas restaurant was planned as the time where the abduction should take place, giving them all an alibi via the waiters and Dianne Webster. It was because of her that the rush from the table had to be staged before the actual disposal of the body took place because she would have noticed an earlier absence of Gerry. A risky plan. As early as 21:30 - 21:45 it was instigated by Kate who came running to the Tapas area entrance shouting at the group. Gerry immediately sprinted off for his meeting with the Smith family. The others followed not before Fiona had instructed Dianne to stay at the table “in case Madeleine would come to look for them“.

This theory has Maddie being moved from 5a that evening whereas some believe that if death was earlier in the week, the body would have been moved before evening of 3rd.

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 06.09.12 14:27

RD wrote:
This theory has Maddie being moved from 5a that evening whereas some believe that if death was earlier in the week, the body would have been moved before evening of 3rd.
unquote

The cleaner came on Wednesday so I would have thought Tuesday evening the 1st of May. When we have the crying episode...
It's never easy is it?

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 14:51

No it is not ! btw I read the theory about Gerry being the man seen by the Smiths, it seems that Maddie was not carried by Gerry as her body was elsewhere....
but is there a theory that this was Ella?
[Sorry, I have a huge bee in my bonnet about the way I believe that little girl was used that day and evening.]

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 06.09.12 15:02

@russiandoll wrote: No it is not ! btw I read the theory about Gerry being the man seen by the Smiths, it seems that Maddie was not carried by Gerry as her body was elsewhere....
but is there a theory that this was Ella?
[Sorry, I have a huge bee in my bonnet about the way I believe that little girl was used that day and evening.]

I think it's very likely, same age and there's the strange goings on all day.
Besides, it does seem that ROB and JT were giving 'help' over and above what could be expected.

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 07.09.12 8:21

Just posting this link here to witness statements - so I don't lose it again!

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5062-the-events-from-9pm-3rd-may-to-end-of-4th-may-as-told-by-the-main-witnesses

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by Ribisl on 08.09.12 16:21

@russiandoll wrote: No it is not ! btw I read the theory about Gerry being the man seen by the Smiths, it seems that Maddie was not carried by Gerry as her body was elsewhere....
but is there a theory that this was Ella?
[Sorry, I have a huge bee in my bonnet about the way I believe that little girl was used that day and evening.]

RD, I find it difficult to believe that the man seen by the Smiths was GM despite their apparent conviction.

GM with Madeleine - why arrange for the removal of her body within minutes of Kate raising the alarm and struggle with constructing such a tight alibi? There are two elements here: removal of the body and staging an abduction. Why risk being seen with a cadaver in a public street when there must have been so many other more discreet ways of disposal eg tennis bag, car, during the night when nobody was likely to be strolling. Then what idiot would abduct a child then go for a walkabout through town when it would have been so much easier and safer to have sped away in a car? So why should GM even consider such a scenario worth enacting AND risk being identified? Makes more sense to stick to the line of 'it was an abduction and Madeleine must have been taken a long way away from PDL by the time the PJ showed up'.

GM with Ella - there is certain logic in this hypothesis but because I cannot believe GM would stage such a mock abduction for the same reasons as stated above I find it very unlikely.

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This is a condensed timeline from witnesses.

Post by tigger on 09.09.12 19:24

Jeremy Wilkins:
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

20.45 - 21.15 Jeremy Wilkins meets Gerry.

21.20 chef AEGFP Tapas hears ‘clamour’ .

21.40 he leaves Tapas restaurant - where until moments before he’d seen the table occupied now empty.

21.30 to 21.40. BJJW hears from Dutch owner of Atlantico restaurant.
He then went to 5a (presumably) at 21.45 - 21.50 .

21.30 to 22.00 receptionist OC HJSL contacted by Tapas rest. He immediately contacted GNR in Lagos. After this father and John Hill arrived and he phoned GNR again.

21.45.Waiter RAEDLO saw no one at the tapas table.
Fitness instructor/waiter JRS between 21.30 and 22.00 spoke to DW .

21.55 Smith family see man and child approx.

21.58 Exact time. MMMdS leaves apt. at (exact time) to car park block 6. Passing block 5 saw no movement of people and no vehicle except small car - grey in colour close to the window of 5a. Saw a light in the apartment above 5a and in 5a. Nothing abnormal.

22.00 (after) RRSB and wife on veranda in apt. Heard noises . GM seen and spoken to. Both went down and helped search.

22.00 to 22.30 Waiter JJMB beween in kitchen, alerted that a guest entered the restaurant screaming and entire group left.

22.17 Hotel ELK get call from LJ creche manager, re missing girl. She met LJ and the service manager AT near Tapas Bar and they initiated the MW procedures for the search of a missing child.
22.28 manager JH gets phone call from LJ creche manager made to his mobile at about 22.28. 5 mins later J.H. presented himself at OC.

22.50 pm - First call to GNR Lagos precinct (Guarda Nacional Republicana, rural police); The first call to Police Precinct of GNR (Portuguese Rural Police) in Lagos, reporting a missing child and asking for Police help was made at 10.50pm.

23.00 hrs, OC guest G. McK.....saw Gerry McCann telling the person receiving the call that he feared “she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles”He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine.

23.00/23.05 pm - A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men).

23.00 After she arrived about S.B. (Silvia Batista - translator)....She remembers that Gerry gave the GNR Commander several photographs of the missing person. These were postcard-type photographs, taking their size and shape into account. They were actually photographs of the size and shape of a postcard, and they seemed to be all similar to her.

24.00, A. T. was at her desk at the Tapas bar ........she printed out 20 to 30 photographs of the girl, using her own paper, in 10x15 format mentioned previously. The memory stick containing the photos belonged to the McCann couple, and came from their camera.

00.00 and 00.30, the police arrived

0.29.37 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (4.53 minutes) Note: can’t find the outgoing call.?Gerry to AM?

00.40/00.50. PJ Officer V. M. M. arrived on the scene. 00.40/00.50. Deputy Specialist J. B. arrived.

0.30 and 1.00 Estimated time. Two timelines written by Russel O’Brien on the covers ripped off Madeleine’s stickerbook are provided to the GNR officers.

1.16.11 am Gerry calls A. M. UK Consulate(1.57 minutes)

04.30 and 05.30 ...made by someone who identified themselves as being from the Sky News TV chain.

07.00 am GNR Officer P. J. F. N. saw the McCann couple alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.

From 7.06 to 7.51 G and K - whilst searching allegedly along the road, having been seen by the non-existent GNR officer, have 9 phone calls.


to facilitate comments I have left spaces. would be good if others wish to add information or corrections. The link to this information is

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5062-the-events-from-9pm-3rd-may-to-end-of-4th-may-as-told-by-the-main-witnesses

The next post is a first 'harvest' from this information but much longer! All times given are 'about' unless stated to be exact.

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The timeline from the above unabridged.

Post by tigger on 09.09.12 19:26

It's probably better to go over the one above first and refer for more information to this post.



As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm


21.20 chef AEGFP Tapas hears ‘clamour’ .

21.40 he leaves Tapas restaurant - where until moments before he’d seen the table occupied now empty.

21.30 to 21.40. BJJW hears from Dutch owner of Atlantico restaurant.
He then went to 5a (presumably) at 21.45 - 21.50 .

21.45.Waiter RAEDLO saw no one at the tapas table.
Fitness instructor/waiter JRS between 21.30 and 22.00 spoke to DW .

21.55 Smith family see man and child approx.

21.58 Exact time. MMMdS leaves apt. at (exact time) to car park block 6. Passing block 5 saw no movement of people and no vehicle except small car - grey in colour close to the window of 5a. Saw a light in the apartment above 5a and in 5a. Nothing abnormal.

21.30 to 22.00 receptionist OC HJSL contacted by Tapas rest. He immediately contacted GNR in Lagos. After this father and John Hill arrived and he phoned GNR again.

Bar chef MJdSR Millenium at - UK tourist asked if he’d seen a little girl.

22.00 (after) RRSB and wife on verande in apt. Heard noises . GM seen and spoken to. Both went down and helped search.

22.00 to 22.30 Waiter JJMB beween in kitchen, alerted that a guest entered the restaurant screaming and entire group left.

22.15 Owner of Duque de Hollanda bar JOW someone informed her of disappearance.

22.17 Hotel ELK get call from LJ creche manager, re missing girl. She met LJ and the service manager AT near Tapas Bar and they initiated the MW procedures for the search of a missing child.

22.20 tennis coach DJS heard about it.
22.28 manager JH gets phone call from LJ creche manager made to his mobile at about 22.28. 5 mins later J.H. presented himself at OC. Upon arriving he was about 100 people searching. ???

22.25 Manager GRC arrived at
22.30 Nanny KM saw colleague Amy. informed about missing.

22.30 Millennium waitres A.N. d..the tennis instructor told them.

22.30 upstairs neighbour mrs. F heard the hysterical shouts from Kate. She asked the father G
Mrs. F. asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted.
She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios

22.30/22.45 millenium rest. D.J.A.V. d S an individual, tall and of British nationality, who asked him whether he had seen a little girl who had disappeared, describing her as blonde and three years old and that she was probably wearing pyjamas.

22.30 – 23.00 Millennium waiter G. C. C. C. says that when the events occurred he was working in the restaurant and heard about the disappearance at about from a Mark Warner employee.

22H45, nanny S. B. O. was in the bar known as ‘Mirage’ informed by her colleague Hayley that a child, of about 3 years of age,

22.45/22.50 Manager J. H. went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken. He always saw the McCanns together in the apartment they were occupying at the time, with the exception of an episode when Gerry went to the main 24 hour reception, with the purpose of speaking to a GNR officer.

22.50 pm - First call to GNR Lagos precinct (Guarda Nacional Republicana, rural police); The first call to Police Precinct of GNR (Portuguese Rural Police) in Lagos, reporting a missing child and asking for Police help was made at 10.50pm and a patrol was sent, arriving at Ocean Club 12/15 minutes later, according to Lieutenant-Colonel Costa Cabral, Head of Public Relations of GNR.

22.55/23.00 manager E. L. K. went to the McCann’s apartment to obtain the girl’s description.
23.00 Head of Maintenance J. C. S. B. arrived and immediately began to search the resort and the beach area. Accountant J. D.

23.00 hrs, OC guest G. McK. approached the McCann’s apartment from the bushes at the rear of the apartment Mr McCann was looking our over the swimming pool and did not see Mr McKenzie. Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared “she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles”He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.”

23.00 After she arrived about S.B. (Silvia Batista - translator)went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember. Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stand up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5. S.B. walked Gerry to the GNR car, so he could deliver the requested documents. She remembers that Gerry gave the GNR Commander several photographs of the missing person. These were postcard-type photographs, taking their size and shape into account. They were actually photographs of the size and shape of a postcard, and they seemed to be all similar to her.

23.00/23.05 pm - A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl’s father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond, an OC employee and a translator who was also an OC employee, named S.B..
Estimated time around 23.10 pm Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by E.L.K. when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by L. J. (child care director and search coordinator).
23:14 Gerry calls Kate (8 seconds)
23:17 Gerry calls Kate (31 seconds)

23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by V. K. and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel.

23.20/23.30 Manager J.H. asked hotel manager E. L. K. to go to the apartment the girl had disappeared from and, on behalf of Mark Warner, provide all the help the family might need. 23.30/23.40 A CID team leaves from Portimão to Praia da Luz. John McCann stated on MSNBC that at ‘twenty to twelve’ 23.40 pm Gerry calls his brother John
23.40 Gerry calls Trish Cameron (11.13 minutes)
23.52 Gerry calls Brian and Janet Kennedy (2.30 minutes

24.00, A. T. was at her desk at the Tapas bar when at a certain time, one of the friends of the McCann couple, Russell, asked for a USB memory stick reader, in order to print photographs of Madeleine. Immediately the deponent replied that she did not have an USB reader, but that she had a printer with this hardware, which could read from memory sticks. She went to her room and returned to the Tapas with the printer where she printed out 20 to 30 photographs of the girl, using her own paper, in 10x15 format mentioned previously. The memory stick containing the photos belonged to the McCann couple, and came from their camera.

00.00 and 00.30, the police arrived.

0.00.27 am Kate calls Sue and Brian Healy (128 seconds)
0.05.00 am Gerry calls Brian and Janet Kennedy (3 seconds)
0.05.45 am Gerry calls Trish Cameron (3 seconds)
0.06.15 am Gerry calls Brian and Janet Kennedy (2.47 minutes)
0.13.14 am Gerry calls Trish Cameron (3 seconds)
0.13.50 am Kate calls Sue and Brian Healy (407 seconds)
0.21.36 am Gerry calls Trish Cameron (23 seconds)
0.23.12 am Gerry calls …. (3.55 minutes)
0.27.07 am Trish Cameron calls Gerry (2.28 minutes)
0.29.37 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (4.53 minutes)
0.36.21 am Kate calls … (31 seconds)
0.37.05 am voicemail calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
0.38.40 am … calls Gerry (6.40 minutes)
0.39.58 am Kate calls voicemail (34 seconds)
0.40.50 am voicemail calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
0.45.15 am Brian and Janet Kennedy call Gerry (1.18 minutes)
0.45.49 am Kate calls voicemail (31 seconds)
0.47.23 am … calls Kate (2.39 minutes)
0.47.41 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (2.15 minutes)
0.53.08 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS

00.40/00.50. PJ Officer V. M. M. arrived on the scene. 00.40/00.50. Deputy Specialist J. B. arrived.
0.30 and 1.00 Estimated time. Two timelines written by Russel O’Brien on the covers ripped off Madeleine’s stickerbook are provided to the GNR officers.

0.30 and 1 am A.G., the owner of a bar got a phonecall from an old customer: P.P., the human resources director from a public English organism.......that they were completely alone and that nobody was helping them to search for her". P.P. confirms she was at Kate's parents house at the time.

01.00 Matthew Oldfield was with J. H. (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins’s door to ask if he had seen anything.
1.02.08 am … calls Kate (2.23 minutes)

1.16.11 am Gerry calls A. M. UK Consulate(1.57 minutes)
1.29.58 am Phil McCann calls Gerry (3.36 minutes)
1.30 that morning Kate called Father P. S. in a state of great agitation.
1.43.55 am … calls Gerry (3.29 minutes)

1.30 and 2.00 Estimated time: between am Hotel manager E. L. K. remembers the police asking everyone to leave the apartment.

2.07.03 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
2.18.29 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
2.20.03 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
2.21.12 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
2.23.27 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
2.27.28 am Kate calls … (27 seconds)

Before 2.30 am (the time he left the scene) GNR Officer J. M. B. R. refers to a situation when he was searching outside, near the pool, that someone from the OC whom he cannot identify, passed him a mobile phone, as a British Consulate employee who spoke in Portuguese, wanted to talk to the authorities.

02.00/02.30, as the child had not been found, PJ Inspector M. J. P. d. L. Q. decided to contact SEF at Faro airport with the aim of alerting them in case anyone would board accompanied by some child.

2.38.58 am Lynda and Mark call Kate (9.45 minutes)
2.53.49 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (16 seconds)
3.05.03 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
3.06.17 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
3.06.54 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (5 seconds)
3.07.38 am Kate calls Jon Corner (3 seconds)
3.07.57 am Kate calls Michelle’s cellphone (3 seconds)
3.08.33 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (3 seconds
3.09.05 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (4 seconds)
3.10.29 am Kate calls … (10 seconds)
3.20.21 am Kate calls Michelle and Jon (14 seconds)
3.23.28 am Jon Corner calls Kate (184 seconds)
3.28.46 am Jon Corner calls Kate (416 seconds)
3.31.13 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
3.55.21 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
3.55.56 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.03.44 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
4.05.40 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.12.33 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.14.41 am Gerry calls … (01 seconds) SMS
4.15.23 am Gerry calls … (01 seconds) SMS
4.15.43 am Gerry calls … (01 seconds) SMS
4.19.02 am Sue and Brian Healy call Gerry (01 seconds) SMS
4.20.34 am John McCann calls Gerry (01 seconds) SMS
4.22.12 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS

04.30 Hotel manager E. L. K. left the new apartment in the morning after instructions from J.H.

4.31.30 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
4.31.41 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
4.36.30 am … calls Kate (17.27 minutes)
4.52.16 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
4.55.54 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS

04.30 and 05.30 During the early morning in question PJ Inspector M. J. P. d. L. Q. received some telephone calls from people whom, with the exception of one, expressed themselves in Portuguese ..... the person who did not express themselves in Portuguese but in English and which was received between, was made by someone who identified themselves as being from the Sky News TV chain.

6.02.08 am Mum mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.04.11 am Kate calls Mum mob (0 seconds) SMS
6.05.29 am Kate calls Amanda home (7.02 minutes)
6.08.17 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS

6.18.17 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
6.34.53 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.35.23 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
6.39.38 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
6.47.42 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.47.54 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.48.05 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.59.12 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.59.44 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS

07.00 am GNR Officer P. J. F. N. saw the McCann couple alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.

7.06.06 am Sue and Brian Healy call Gerry (01 seconds) SMS
7.09.04 am John McCann calls Gerry (3.26 minutes)
7.15.19 am Gerry calls Angela Morado UK Consulate (4.51 minutes)
7.23.20 am … calls Gerry (5.53 minutes)
7.41.14 am Jill mob calls Kate (3.30 minutes)
7.44.48 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
7.46.36 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
7.48.12 am … calls Kate (373 seconds)
7.51.14 am … calls Kate (1.26 minutes)
8.06.14 am mum mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.07.52 am Kate calls mum mob (0 seconds) SMS
8.11.35 am Jill mob calls Kate (1.56 minutes)
8.21.21 am Jill mob calls Kate (153 seconds)
8.27.26 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.28.30 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
8.29.56 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.31.00 am Kate calls Michelle mob (3 seconds)
8.31.21 am Jill mob calls Kate (2.33 minutes)
8.34.09 am Kate calls … (32 seconds)
8.34.19 am Kate calls Jon Corner (61 seconds)
8.34.59 am voicemail calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.35.15 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (1.43 minutes)
8.35.21 am Kate calls voicemail (20 seconds)
8.36.03 am Kate calls voicemail (37 seconds)

8.45.20 am Kate calls … (136 seconds)
8.50.27 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (4.47 minutes)
8.51.42 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
8.52.41 am Kate calls Jon Corner (73 seconds)
8.56.15 am Kate calls Nuala (47 seconds)
8.57.17 am Jill mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.01.55 am … calls Gerry (1.46 minutes)
9.04.16 am … calls Gerry (1.28 minutes)
9.05.38 am anonymous number calls Gerry (2.12 minutes)
9.09.32 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.09.44 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.09.56 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.10.39 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
9.12.04 am Geteesha mob calls Kate (262 seconds)
9.14.28 am UK consulate in Portugal calls Gerry (3.58 minutes)
9.16.07 am … calls Gerry (1 second)
9.25.51 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.26.03 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.29.18 am Jill mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.33.11 am Michelle & Jon call Kate (5.35 minutes)
9.34.42 am Voicemail calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.45.21 am Fiona & Richard call Kate (1.45 minutes)

9.45 Estimated time am Social worker Y. M. met the McCann couple next to the apartment from where the child had disappeared, accompanied by a third person, a male, who seemed quite familiar to her.

9.46.24 am Jill mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.47.48 am Kate calls voicemail (58 seconds).
9.49.50 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.50.23 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.50.38 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
9.58.53 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.59.20 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS

9.59.31 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
10.01.06 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS

10.00 am, 12 hours after the disappearance, the British Consul from Portimão arrives. PJ tell him all that is going on. He is not satisfied and is heard talking on the phone saying the "PJ are doing nothing. " (GA)

On 4 May, the parents authorized the police to look at their cellphones to check for calls made and received:

Kate's phone: no calls made from 27April to 4 May; she received no calls from 11h22 on 2 May until 23h17 on 3 May

Gerry's phone: nothing prior to 00h15 on 4 May

However, inside Kate's phone there is a record of a call received from Gerry at 11h17, 3 May. But no record of the call on Gerry's phone. It had been erased. (GA).

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 09.09.12 23:37

@tigger wrote:Jeremy Wilkins:
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

20.45 - 21.15 Jeremy Wilkins meets Gerry.

21.20 chef AEGFP Tapas hears ‘clamour’ .

21.40 he leaves Tapas restaurant - where until moments before he’d seen the table occupied now empty.

21.30 to 21.40. BJJW hears from Dutch owner of Atlantico restaurant.
He then went to 5a (presumably) at 21.45 - 21.50 .

21.30 to 22.00 receptionist OC HJSL contacted by Tapas rest. He immediately contacted GNR in Lagos. After this John Hill arrived and he phoned GNR again. This is wrong, there is no record of any call. Is the receptionist lying or has he got the time wrong.

21.45.Waiter RAEDLO saw no one at the tapas table.
Fitness instructor/waiter JRS between 21.30 and 22.00 spoke to DW .

21.55 Smith family see man and child approx.

21.58 Exact time. MMMdS leaves apt. at (exact time) to car park block 6. Passing block 5 saw no movement of people and no vehicle except small car - grey in colour close to the window of 5a. Saw a light in the apartment above 5a and in 5a. Nothing abnormal.

22.00 (after) RRSB and wife on veranda in apt. Heard noises . GM seen and spoken to. Both went down and helped search.

22.00 to 22.30 Waiter JJMB beween in kitchen, alerted that a guest entered the restaurant screaming and entire group left.

22.17 Hotel ELK get call from LJ creche manager, re missing girl. She met LJ and the service manager AT near Tapas Bar and they initiated the MW procedures for the search of a missing child.
22.28 manager JH gets phone call from LJ creche manager made to his mobile at about 22.28. 5 mins later J.H. presented himself at OC.

22.50 pm - First call to GNR Lagos precinct (Guarda Nacional Republicana, rural police); The first call to Police Precinct of GNR (Portuguese Rural Police) in Lagos, reporting a missing child and asking for Police help was made at 10.50pm. this is wrong and should be 22.41 but it is after the manager arrives at the office and after the MW procedure has been initiated.

23.00 hrs, OC guest G. McK.....saw Gerry McCann telling the person receiving the call that he feared “she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles”He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine.

23.00/23.05 pm - A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men).

23.00 After she arrived about S.B. (Silvia Batista - translator)....She remembers that Gerry gave the GNR Commander several photographs of the missing person. These were postcard-type photographs, taking their size and shape into account. They were actually photographs of the size and shape of a postcard, and they seemed to be all similar to her.

24.00, A. T. was at her desk at the Tapas bar ........she printed out 20 to 30 photographs of the girl, using her own paper, in 10x15 format mentioned previously. The memory stick containing the photos belonged to the McCann couple, and came from their camera.

00.00 and 00.30, the police arrived

0.29.37 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (4.53 minutes) Note: can’t find the outgoing call.?Gerry to AM?

00.40/00.50. PJ Officer V. M. M. arrived on the scene. 00.40/00.50. Deputy Specialist J. B. arrived.

0.30 and 1.00 Estimated time. Two timelines written by Russel O’Brien on the covers ripped off Madeleine’s stickerbook are provided to the GNR officers.

1.16.11 am Gerry calls A. M. UK Consulate(1.57 minutes)

04.30 and 05.30 ...made by someone who identified themselves as being from the Sky News TV chain.

07.00 am GNR Officer P. J. F. N. saw the McCann couple alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.

From 7.06 to 7.51 G and K - whilst searching allegedly along the road, having been seen by the non-existent GNR officer, have 9 phone calls.


to facilitate comments I have left spaces. would be good if others wish to add information or corrections. The link to this information is

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5062-the-events-from-9pm-3rd-may-to-end-of-4th-may-as-told-by-the-main-witnesses

The next post is a first 'harvest' from this information but much longer! All times given are 'about' unless stated to be exact.

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Conclusion - the timing of abduction was changed.

Post by tigger on 10.09.12 13:45

The 21.20 ‘clamour’ I think we can ignore since no one backs up this time. The same for the 21.30 to 21.40 from BJJW - mainly because he was not near the Tapas.


21.40 empty table seen by chef AEGFP
21.45 empty table seen by waiter RAEDLO
The evidence of the fitness instructor/waiter from 21.30 to 22.00 would fit with the above.
This is a small ‘cluster’ of evidence which seems to be more reliable.
We should also not forget that one of the waiters went into hiding because his evidence was contested. If that had to do with the earlier timing?
The evidence of this waiter is what I’m looking for, it may well swing the balance to 21.45.
Because then we would have three separate times which coincide.

21.30 to 22.00 Receptionist. HJSL. Immediately contacts GNR. NO RECORD.
(It’s also strange that anyone from the Tapas would alert as early as 21.30 since 21.40 only an empty table was noted, no missing child). This entry must lie a lot closer and perhaps past 22.00. Otherwise, why the 17 minutes delay before ELK springs into action?

21.55 Smiths sighting.

21.58 exact time. No disturbance at 5a.

22.00 - 22.30 everything changes. Waiter JJMB in Tapas and RRSB on veranda.

If Johanna from Unterdenteppichgekehrt is right, (see the earlier posts in this topic) the original plan was to start the abduction at 21.45. Kate will alert the three couples at the Tapas whilst Gerry walks with a borrowed child through PdL. at a time which will fit very well with an abductor leaving 5a at 9.45, the time that Kate is due to do the half-hour check.

When Gerry returns, he may have decided that he is in dire need of a rock solid alibi after meeting the Smiths.
He decides to use the JW meeting and Jane to back up the abduction to 9.15.
It must be better for a third party to have seen a man carrying the child and at the same time to have seen Gerry. The only alibi he could have for 21.55 is from the Tapas and at that time they were no longer in the restaurant if the above times of 21.40 and 21.45 are correct.
His absence might also have been noted by other guests there e.g. JW was there earlier. So changing to the JW/JT/GM plan would probably be safer.

It’s quite possible that they did leave the Tapas at 9.45, waiting for Gerry to come back which would have been around 10.05 - some time must have been spent drawing up the two timelines after that and informing the friends of the altered plan. The absence of Gerry during that time is no problem as he could be said to have been searching and generally running around. Gerry changed hurriedly out of his beige trousers and into jeans. (The PJ did ask what he was wearing I believe)

Because all the following times given are from 20.17 onwards. Mrs. Fenn gives a time of 22.30 (when Kate shouted ‘we’ve let her down!’) and most alerts and search requests appear from that time onwards.
The time given by RRSB and his wife of ‘after 22.00’ is also indefinite.

22.17 ELK , LJ and AT meat near Tapas bar and initiate MW procedures for missing child.
(Where were they? not in reception?)

22.28 So manager JH doesn’t get call until 12 minutes later.
He is at OC 5 minutes later.
First call to GNR is 22.41
Second call to GNR is 22.50.
It is possible that the first call may not have seemed urgent enough.

23.00 GM tells family she’s been abducted.Paeophile gangs.

23.00 - 23.05 GNR patrol arrives (two officers)/

23.00 Silvia Batista arrives. Gerry gives the GNR postcard-type photographs.

24.00 A.T. at the Tapas bar prints out 20 to 30 photographs.

00.00 - 00.30 the police arrives.

00.29 Angela Morado - UK Consulate calls Gerry - is there an outgoing call from Gerry? Can’t find it.

04.30 - 05.30 Journalist from Sky News phones.

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 10.09.12 18:44

From the Sunday Express 16th December 2007

...The key witness in the case is reported to have gone into hiding after fleeing Portugal. Police have sworn the waiter to secrecy over his vital testimony and know where he is. But friends say he is terrified his identity is about to be revealed and that he will come under pressure from rival factions in the case. He is scared of British and Portuguese government influence in the probe. Friends claim he is also wary of the team of private eyes hired by Kate and Gerry McCann to help find their daughter.

The tapas bar waiter – described by police as their “trump card” – has given what detectives believe is the most reliable account of what happened the night the four-year-old vanished. They have questioned him three times, most recently last week. Officers say his story can prove Madeleine’s parents are lying over her disappearance. Many of the 100 questions officers want to ask the McCanns and their holiday friends – the so-called Tapas Nine – are thought to be based on his information.

But, according to former colleagues at the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, the knowledge he is playing such a vital role in the case that has gripped the world has horrified him. One said: "He does not want to be involved in any of this. He was just a restaurant worker. His only problem was remembering food orders. He’s terrified."
unquote

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Early dogs....

Post by tigger on 13.09.12 7:24

23.40 Gerry calls Trish Cameron (11.13 minutes)
"It was my younger brother Gerry distraught on the phone, breaking his heart. He said: 'Madeleine is abducted, she's been abducted'. 'They kept going back to check the kids every half hour. The restaurant was only 40 yards away. He went back at 9 o’clock to check the children. They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut'.
Kate then went over to the two-bedroom ground-floor apartment and 'came out screaming', said Mrs. Cameron. 'The door was lying open, the window in the bedroom and the shutters had been jimmied open'. "They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine." (timesonline 6 may)
Sandy Cameron statement: “On the night of Thursday, May 3, 2007, Patricia received a telephone call from Gerry informing us of the disappearance of Madeleine. Gerry manifested all those emotions one expects from a father who has lost a child in the circumstances. He was distraught and spoke at the same time he cried. He seemed frustrated with the slowness of the searches in Portugal, with the fact that the borders had not been closed, and with the fact that sniffer dogs were not being used. Patricia and I contacted the British Embassy to try and help in this regard.”
unquote

But that call had been deleted from the mobile. It was made however, since the 23.40 call does appear on the pings.
His second call to Cameron was at 00.05. Three seconds.

How would he know the borders had not been closed (as if they could).
Why did he expect sniffer dogs to turn up within one hour of phoning the GNR? (they're hardly on standby duties I would think).
We also learn that the Embassy in Portugal was contacted by P and S Cameron. Well done, finding that number so quickly - why didn't Gerry do this?
All this within two hours of not looking for your child.

Certainly forty minutes had passed during which Gerry should have run to reception (which was close) to ask them to phone the police.







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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 13.09.12 16:18

The list by Autumn is interesting because of the different sources. Thanks for that.

The ping shows two calls at 23.14 and 23.17 . 23.14 is the same as Kate has on her mobile, 23.17 is on Kate's mobile but Gerry has deleted it.
23.40 must be the call to the Camerons.
23.52 - I don't know who this call was for.

If Gerry phoned his friend Alistair Clark - then it can't have been from this mobile.
As I am wondering if the search amongst the rocks - with either Wright or Corner (can't remember) was for a thrown away mobile, it might be the one he made other calls on. Such as to Clark.
No doubt this thought has occurred to the PJ too. I expect they have checked all the calls received on the Luz antenna that night.

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 13.09.12 20:59

From 'the role of Michael Wright. jillhavern.forumotion.net
Who were Gerry McCann and Michael Wright texting on the beach on 7th May?

According to a Portuguese TV report still available to view at: http://tinyurl.com/25fk38, a press photographer captured pictures of Dr Gerry McCann on the beach at Praia da Luz, in the company of Michael Wright, texting on a mobile ’phone. The photograph was of potential importance because its date and time would identify a particular text message. It appears that the Portuguese police know who the message was sent to, having been able to check Dr McCann’s SMS text messages sent that day. It is thought that the photo was taken on 7th May, though the TV programme was not transmitted until 9th May.

The Telecinco TV programme ‘Esta Pasando’ was sent the images. At first sight, the photos appears normal. They show Dr Gerry McCann, apparently with Michael Wright, on the beach close to the church in Praia da Luz. Dr Gerry McCann is clearly texting on a mobile ’phone.
unquote

and: from McCannfiles, interviews with G. Amaral:
There are photos, taken in the rocks down below in the water, were we can see searching, certainly he was not searching for his live daughter...

HC: Are you referring to Maddie's father?

GA: To Gerald McCann. Maddie's father.

HC: He was walking around here, in the rocks below?

GA: Yes, there are pictures of that.

HC: But in that case, he would have to have the firm belief that the girl was dead.

GA: I do not believe that he was looking for crabs nor searching for a live daughter.

unquote

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by Nina on 13.09.12 21:19

@tigger wrote:From 'the role of Michael Wright. jillhavern.forumotion.net
Who were Gerry McCann and Michael Wright texting on the beach on 7th May?

According to a Portuguese TV report still available to view at: http://tinyurl.com/25fk38, a press photographer captured pictures of Dr Gerry McCann on the beach at Praia da Luz, in the company of Michael Wright, texting on a mobile ’phone. The photograph was of potential importance because its date and time would identify a particular text message. It appears that the Portuguese police know who the message was sent to, having been able to check Dr McCann’s SMS text messages sent that day. It is thought that the photo was taken on 7th May, though the TV programme was not transmitted until 9th May.

The Telecinco TV programme ‘Esta Pasando’ was sent the images. At first sight, the photos appears normal. They show Dr Gerry McCann, apparently with Michael Wright, on the beach close to the church in Praia da Luz. Dr Gerry McCann is clearly texting on a mobile ’phone.
unquote

and: from McCannfiles, interviews with G. Amaral:
There are photos, taken in the rocks down below in the water, were we can see searching, certainly he was not searching for his live daughter...

HC: Are you referring to Maddie's father?

GA: To Gerald McCann. Maddie's father.

HC: He was walking around here, in the rocks below?

GA: Yes, there are pictures of that.

HC: But in that case, he would have to have the firm belief that the girl was dead.

GA: I do not believe that he was looking for crabs nor searching for a live daughter.

unquote

Hi Tigger. Could he have been ringing/texting a lost/discarded mobile so that it would ring/buzz?

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Re: Timeline evening 3/5/07 as from 8.00 p.m.

Post by tigger on 13.09.12 21:30

I think Kiko thinks the same. There was no reason to be texting from 'prying eyes'. He could do that indoors or lots of places.
That's why I put these not entirely on topic posts in. Amaral says they were searching and I believe that. I think they were observed.

From the data it appears that certainly one call could not have been made from his mobile. Kiko thinks (I think) that they had 'safe' mobiles or sims early in the week. Which would make a lot of sense. I believe Kiko thinks it's Murat and Gerry who had these.


That again would make sense of the long silence of both mobiles and the switching back on of both - after they turned off the untraceable ones.

This is where going over old ground always seems to throw up new insights.

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tigger

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