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The timeline for the evening

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The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 11:35

@Me wrote:
@Pat Brown wrote:Honeybunch,

That bit about Gerry possibly hiding Madeleine's body and being back at the Tapas by ten was discussed in the profile! The question is, was Gerry really back at the Tapas by the time Kate announced Madeleine being missing? So far, I have not read any believable witnesses on that. There is also the possibility that Kate actually raise the alarm earlier and it was after discovering Maddie's body that Gerry went off to hide it. Much of that timeline is murky, but a couple of things are for sure; there is no proof of an abduction and the McCanns did not want the 10 pm sighting to be that of the abductor.

Hi Pat & welcome from me!

The timelines from the independent witnesses simply don't match the timelines given by the Tapas group. If you look at the statements from people outside of the McCann’s and their friends, the earliest alert comes from the resort's executive chef who claims he was made aware of the missing girl at 21.20 some 40 minutes before Kate's claimed time of discovery.

Here's the timeline as complied from the PJ files by "kazlux" over on the Mccann files website:

21:15/21:30 Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine, Ocean Club guest S.C. and his wife left the Tapas bar to go home: "We walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi-circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and I calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".

21:20, Executive Chef A.E.G.F.P. heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few metres away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared.

At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Property manager B.J.J.W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21:30 – 21:40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlántico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in Praia da Luz, and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21:45 – 21:50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present. When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.

Dinner finished at around 21:45 and some minutes passed where waiter R.A.E.D.L.O. looked towards the table but saw no one—his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;

Between 21.30 and 22:00 Fitness instructor/Waiter J.R.S. went over to the table and joked with Dianne Webster: "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there." I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man, who I knew later to be Madeleine's father, running to the pool and to the children's play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Millennium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21:30 and 22:00 but do not remember with certainty.

Approx. 21:55 The Smith Family, (4 adults and 5 children) are returning from 'Kelly's Bar', heading north, all spread out along the street and they pass a man walking down the middle of the street, carrying a child, with the head against his left shoulder and the arms hanging down alongside the body, in light coloured or pink pyjamas, bare feet, pale skin typical of British and blonde, shoulder-length hair; the girl is about 3-4 years old, about 1 metre tall. - The man is not dressed like a tourist; he's wearing cream or beige trousers, classic cut, of linen or cotton. He is white, 30-35 yrs, 1.70-1.80 meters tall, average build, physically fit, short, brown hair, with a face that looks tanned. (GA)

Clearly when you add these statements together you can see that the group have come up with a point of discovery at 10.00 pm when no one independent of their coterie corroborates that.

You have to ask the question why? Is it because Gerry having run into the Smiths needed an alibi?

.

Here is an excerpt from the tapas waiter's Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira's statement:

On 3rd May the witness arrived at his place of work as usual at 16.00 and that he first saw Madeleine's parents at dinner that night at about 20.45.

When asked, he says that he does not remember whether the parents arrived together or whether they were the first or last to arrive at the table.

When asked, he says that he was one of the waiters who served at the table, but he does not remember whether he served Madeleine's parents.

When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.

He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.

Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment.

When asked, he says that he does not remember anyone having been absent from the table for a few instants.

When asked, he says that he did not notice anything strange in the functioning of the restaurant nor any guest or individual with any strange or abnormal behaviour

So - dinner ended at 9.45, obviously prior to Kate's alarm being raised according to him. A few minutes after 9,45pm he noticed the table was empty. So, according to this man's testimony there is no way that Gerry could have been where the Smiths were in such a short space of time.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 12:42

@Ringo wrote:Here is an excerpt from the tapas waiter's Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira's statement:

On 3rd May the witness arrived at his place of work as usual at 16.00 and that he first saw Madeleine's parents at dinner that night at about 20.45.

When asked, he says that he does not remember whether the parents arrived together or whether they were the first or last to arrive at the table.

When asked, he says that he was one of the waiters who served at the table, but he does not remember whether he served Madeleine's parents.

When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.

He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.

Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment.

When asked, he says that he does not remember anyone having been absent from the table for a few instants.

When asked, he says that he did not notice anything strange in the functioning of the restaurant nor any guest or individual with any strange or abnormal behaviour

So - dinner ended at 9.45, obviously prior to Kate's alarm being raised according to him. A few minutes after 9,45pm he noticed the table was empty. So, according to this man's testimony there is no way that Gerry could have been where the Smiths were in such a short space of time.

And what part of that statement specifcally states that the waiter saw Gerry there between 9.20pm and 9.45?

9.45 isn't 10.00 pm as claimed by Kate either is it?

How do you explain this statement:

Arlindo Epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Peleja

Date/Time: 2007/05/08 21H10
Executive Chef
Portuguese

Concerning the issue of the process said;
. Is a functionary of the Ocean Club establishment since the 13th of January of the current year (2007), and is employed as executive chef of the kitchen. He clarifies that along with being responsible for the five (5) kitchens (one of whom is the Tapas) of the Ocean Club, his post essentially centres on the principal kitchen next to a reception, close to the restaurant MIRAGE. His work takes him occasionally to the other kitchens;
. He records that the past Thursday, 3rd of May, he left the central kitchen with the objective of going to the Tapas restaurant in order to determine that everything was functioning smoothly;
. When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10, he remembers that next to the Tapas reception, he saw a vehicle, dark blue in colour, with Portuguese license plates. Although he cannot be definite, he believes it was a Fiesta or Focus. The deponent furthers that is was not a small car, and for this reason it could very well have been a Focus and not a Fiesta. He tells that he does not remember any sticker indicating that it was a rental car. Inside the vehicle he saw no one.
. After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else.
. A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Also we have this statement:

Barend Jan Jacob Weijdom

Date: 2007/05/16

Occupation: Property Manager

Place of Work: P da L


He comes to the process as a witness and of his own will.

He has lived in P da L since 1996.

He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.

He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present.

When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.

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Profile of Maddie's disappearance - debate with 'Ringo' and 'Me'

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 14:30

@Me wrote:And what part of that statement specifcally states that the waiter saw Gerry there between 9.20pm and 9.45?

9.45 isn't 10.00 pm as claimed by Kate either is it?


You seemed to be arguing in your earlier post that the alarm had been raised earlier that 10pm


Me wrote: Clearly when you add these statements together you can see that the group have come up with a point of discovery at 10.00 pm when no one independent of their coterie corroborates that.

You have to ask the question why? Is it because Gerry having run into the Smiths needed an alibi?


It would seem that you would need the alarm to have been raised earlier in the evening in order for Gerry to have been at the place of the Smiths sighting, right? However the Tapas waiter I have quoted is clear that dinner ended at 9.45 pm and that a few minutes later he noticed that the table had been vacated. That puts the alarm having been raised at around 9.50pm.

How do you explain this statement:

Arlindo Epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Peleja

Date/Time: 2007/05/08 21H10
Executive Chef
Portuguese

Concerning the issue of the process said;
. Is a functionary of the Ocean Club establishment since the 13th of January of the current year (2007), and is employed as executive chef of the kitchen. He clarifies that along with being responsible for the five (5) kitchens (one of whom is the Tapas) of the Ocean Club, his post essentially centres on the principal kitchen next to a reception, close to the restaurant MIRAGE. His work takes him occasionally to the other kitchens;
. He records that the past Thursday, 3rd of May, he left the central kitchen with the objective of going to the Tapas restaurant in order to determine that everything was functioning smoothly;
. When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10, he remembers that next to the Tapas reception, he saw a vehicle, dark blue in colour, with Portuguese license plates. Although he cannot be definite, he believes it was a Fiesta or Focus. The deponent furthers that is was not a small car, and for this reason it could very well have been a Focus and not a Fiesta. He tells that he does not remember any sticker indicating that it was a rental car. Inside the vehicle he saw no one.
. After parking his vehicle, he entered through the reception of that restaurant, in the left hand direction, toward the side opposite the pool, and passed by the esplanade. He remembers having seen in that esplanade, one table, occupied by three couples, without children, and all of them adults. On the esplanade, he encountered no one else.
. A few minutes later, when it was around 21H20, he heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few meters away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared. Given the importance of this, believed that he should be in the surroundings. At that moment, he did not leave the area of the restaurant, and did not have the opportunity to check if the vehicle mentioned before was situated in the same location;
. Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Also we have this statement:

Barend Jan Jacob Weijdom

Date: 2007/05/16

Occupation: Property Manager

Place of Work: P da L


He comes to the process as a witness and of his own will.

He has lived in P da L since 1996.

He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.

He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21.45 - 21.50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present.

When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.
[/quote]

The waiter said that the McCanns arrived at the restaurant at 8.45pm. In order for those other witness statements to have been correct, the Tapas 9's dinner would have had to have been ordered, cooked, served and eaten, Kate to have left the table and raised the alarm all in the space of 30 to 40 minutes which doesn't seem very likely.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 14:43

@Ringo wrote:You seemed to be arguing in your earlier post that the alarm had been raised earlier that 10pm

Absolutely, and the point is even taking this guy's statement into account that isn't the 10.00pm timeline put forward by kate or the Tapas 7 is it? So who's not telling the truth?



@Ringo wrote:It would seem that you would need the alarm to have been raised earlier in the evening in order for Gerry to have been at the place of the Smiths sighting, right? However the Tapas waiter I have quoted is clear that dinner ended at 9.45 pm and that a few minutes later he noticed that the table had been vacated. That puts the alarm having been raised at around 9.50pm.

But he doesn't say with absolute certainty that gerry was there at that time does he?


@Ringo wrote:The waiter said that the McCanns arrived at the restaurant at 8.45pm. In order for those other witness statements to have been correct, the Tapas 9's dinner would have had to have been ordered, cooked, served and eaten, Kate to have left the table and raised the alarm all in the space of 30 to 40 minutes which doesn't seem very likely.

So your argument is that these two witnesses are wrong then?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 14:59

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:You seemed to be arguing in your earlier post that the alarm had been raised earlier that 10pm

Absolutely, and the point is even taking this guy's statement into account that isn't the 10.00pm timeline put forward by kate or the Tapas 7 is it? So who's not telling the truth?


WEll if it was 9.50pm or 10.00pm neither would allow for Gerry to be at the Smiths sighting at 9.55pm.


@Ringo wrote:It would seem that you would need the alarm to have been raised earlier in the evening in order for Gerry to have been at the place of the Smiths sighting, right? However the Tapas waiter I have quoted is clear that dinner ended at 9.45 pm and that a few minutes later he noticed that the table had been vacated. That puts the alarm having been raised at around 9.50pm.

But he doesn't say with absolute certainty that gerry was there at that time does he?

No, not with absolute certainty, however there is another Tapas waiter's statement who saw Gerry in the OC at the same time as Dianne Webster was sat alone at the restaurant table which would indicate that he was certainly in the close vicinity at the time the alarm was raised.

@Ringo wrote:The waiter said that the McCanns arrived at the restaurant at 8.45pm. In order for those other witness statements to have been correct, the Tapas 9's dinner would have had to have been ordered, cooked, served and eaten, Kate to have left the table and raised the alarm all in the space of 30 to 40 minutes which doesn't seem very likely.

So your argument is that these two witnesses are wrong then?
[/quote]

Well as none of them exactly match up they can't all be right can they?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 15:11

@Ringo wrote:WEll if it was 9.50pm or 10.00pm neither would allow for Gerry to be at the Smiths sighting at 9.55pm.

Only on the basis that Gerry was there prior to the table clearing if indeed it did "clear" at 21.45. Again no confirmation of that from the statement you have produced.


@Ringo wrote:No, not with absolute certainty, however there is another Tapas waiter's statement who saw Gerry in the OC at the same time as Dianne Webster was sat alone at the restaurant table which would indicate that he was certainly in the close vicinity at the time the alarm was raised.

So not certain then? Therefore Gerry doesn't have a firm alibi for the Smith's sighting does he?

Which statement is that? I recall there was one from a nanny or fitness instructor who also worked in the restaurant that put Gerry in the OC complex between 9.30-10.00 but no more accurately than that.

@Ringo wrote:Well as none of them exactly match up they can't all be right can they?

So the one you highlight must be right and all the others wrong by up to 45 minutes?

What all the statements do show is that the timeline put forward by the Mccann's that kate alerted the tapas group at 10.00 pm is untruthful.

Do you agree? Or is her version correct and everyone else's wrong?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 15:23

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:WEll if it was 9.50pm or 10.00pm neither would allow for Gerry to be at the Smiths sighting at 9.55pm.

Only on the basis that Gerry was there prior to the table clearing if indeed it did "clear" at 21.45. Again no confirmation of that from the statement you have produced.


@Ringo wrote:No, not with absolute certainty, however there is another Tapas waiter's statement who saw Gerry in the OC at the same time as Dianne Webster was sat alone at the restaurant table which would indicate that he was certainly in the close vicinity at the time the alarm was raised.

So not certain then? Therefore Gerry doesn't have a firm alibi for the Smith's sighting does he?

Which statement is that? I recall there was one from a nanny or fitness instructor who also worked in the restaurant that put Gerry in the OC complex between 9.30-10.00 but no more accurately than that.

@Ringo wrote:Well as none of them exactly match up they can't all be right can they?

So the one you highlight must be right and all the others wrong by up to 45 minutes?

What all the statements do show is that the timeline put forward by the Mccann's that kate alerted the tapas group at 10.00 pm is untruthful.

Do you agree? Or is her version correct and everyone else's wrong?

I think what is very clear when you look at all the witness statements that night from eveyone that precise recollections of the times that certain events occurred are virtually impossible to nail down. You have to decide whether or not the Tapas waiter was right or wrong when he said the McCanns arrived at dinner at 8.45pm and work on from there. As all of the Tapas 9 apart from one had consumed their starters and main courses by the time the alarm was raised according to the waiter at their table that would certainly put the raising of the alarm at later than 9.20, I'm sure you would agree? The waiter / fitness instructor says that she say Gerry after the alarm had been raised at some time between 9.30 and 10.00pm - if we accept the first waiter's account, then we can surmise that the fitness instructor's later time of around 10pm would be more likely.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 15:37

@Ringo wrote:I think what is very clear when you look at all the witness statements that night from eveyone that precise recollections of the times that certain events occurred are virtually impossible to nail down. You have to decide whether or not the Tapas waiter was right or wrong when he said the McCanns arrived at dinner at 8.45pm and work on from there. As all of the Tapas 9 apart from one had consumed their starters and main courses by the time the alarm was raised according to the waiter at their table that would certainly put the raising of the alarm at later than 9.20, I'm sure you would agree? The waiter / fitness instructor says that she say Gerry after the alarm had been raised at some time between 9.30 and 10.00pm - if we accept the first waiter's account, then we can surmise that the fitness instructor's later time of around 10pm would be more likely.

Well i don't agree they're impossible to nail down, i think it's logical to expect some slight differences in times but not to the degree stated.

As such a picture does emerge and what is inexplicable is why the times given by indepedent witnesses can be upto 45 minutes before the Mccann time. What conclusion can you draw from that?

The starting point from all the statements (which you've not mentioned) is that Kate's timeline is not supported by any independent witnesses. Can you agree with me on this point please.

Secondly we have three witnesses (four if you include the guest at 9.15 who said his wife recalled someone shouting Madeleine at 9.15-9.30) with a timeline line starting at 9.20 to 9.30. The property manager said he was told by "PB" - the Dutchman at 9.30-9.40, so we can conclude the Dutchman heard about it before then - 9.20 seems reasonable doesn't it - and fits in with the executive chef being made aware of the disappearance.

The waiter doesn't remember who was at the table and when and says the table cleared a few minutes after 9.45. He doesn't remember who left the table, when and for how long before that.

Do you think therefore it is possible that the alarm was raised in stages? It would be the only explanation as to why several witnesses have a different starting time and one which varies so much, don't you agree?

Equally important from this emerging picture is that there is not one firm alibi for Gerry at exactly the time of the Smiths sighting is there? The only alibi that we had for Gerry being at the OC at the time of the Smiths sighting was from Kate and we've just established that timeline was untruthful.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 15:40

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:I think what is very clear when you look at all the witness statements that night from eveyone that precise recollections of the times that certain events occurred are virtually impossible to nail down. You have to decide whether or not the Tapas waiter was right or wrong when he said the McCanns arrived at dinner at 8.45pm and work on from there. As all of the Tapas 9 apart from one had consumed their starters and main courses by the time the alarm was raised according to the waiter at their table that would certainly put the raising of the alarm at later than 9.20, I'm sure you would agree? The waiter / fitness instructor says that she say Gerry after the alarm had been raised at some time between 9.30 and 10.00pm - if we accept the first waiter's account, then we can surmise that the fitness instructor's later time of around 10pm would be more likely.

Well i don't agree they're impossible to nail down, i think it's logical to expect some slight differences in times but not to the degree stated.

As such a picture does emerge and what is inexplicable is why the times given by indepedent witnesses can be upto 45 minutes before the Mccann time. What conclusion can you draw from that?

The starting point from all the statements (which you've not mentioned) is that Kate's timeline is not supported by any independent witnesses. Can you agree with me on this point please.

Secondly we have three witnesses (four if you include the guest at 9.15 who said his wife recalled someone shouting Madeleine at 9.15-9.30) with a timeline line starting at 9.20 to 9.30. The property manager said he was told by "PB" - the Dutchman at 9.30-9.40, so we can conclude the Dutchman heard about it before then - 9.20 seems reasonable doesn't it - and fits in with the executive chef being made aware of the disappearance.

The waiter doesn't remember who was at the table and when and says the table cleared a few minutes after 9.45. He doesn't remember who left the table, when and for how long before that.

Do you think therefore it is possible that the alarm was raised in stages? It would be the only explanation as to why several witnesses have a different starting time and one which varies so much, don't you agree?

Equally important from this emerging picture is that there is not one firm alibi for Gerry at exactly the time of the Smiths sighting is there? The only alibi that we had for Gerry being at the OC at the time of the Smiths sighting was from Kate and we've just established that timeline was untruthful.

What time did Kate say that she and Gerry arrived at the restaurant?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 15:48

@Ringo wrote:What time did Kate say that she and Gerry arrived at the restaurant?

i don't know why you're asking me the question when clearly you know the answer but from the files:

Kate Healy Statement 4th May:

Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband. Just after 8.30pm, the witness and her husband, after checking on their children, joined the other adults of the group at the "Tapas" restaurant, about 50 metres away, where they had dinner

September statement:
They talked while they drank, until they left for the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30-8.35 p.m. Before leaving they checked on the children, she doesn’t know who; however Gerry says it was him. She only knows the children were quiet. She doesn’t know if they were in their same positions. She says she is sure that they were asleep, because Gerry told her so and all was quiet.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 15:55

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:What time did Kate say that she and Gerry arrived at the restaurant?

i don't know why you're asking me the question when clearly you know the answer but from the files:

Kate Healy Statement 4th May:

Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband. Just after 8.30pm, the witness and her husband, after checking on their children, joined the other adults of the group at the "Tapas" restaurant, about 50 metres away, where they had dinner

September statement:
They talked while they drank, until they left for the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30-8.35 p.m. Before leaving they checked on the children, she doesn’t know who; however Gerry says it was him. She only knows the children were quiet. She doesn’t know if they were in their same positions. She says she is sure that they were asleep, because Gerry told her so and all was quiet.

Thanks. I was being lazy and I'm in the middle of doing other things. On the written timeline does it not have 8.45 as the time they all assembled for dinner? This corresponds with what the waiter said doesn't it? So they began the meal at 8.45pm. Is that agreed?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 15:59

@Ringo wrote:Thanks. I was being lazy and I'm in the middle of doing other things. On the written timeline does it not have 8.45 as the time they all assembled for dinner? This corresponds with what the waiter said doesn't it? So they began the meal at 8.45pm. Is that agreed?

The written timeline has meet at the pool at 8.45pm. The waiter says this is the first time he saw Kate & Gerry (but not necessarily the time they arrived there).

By the way you still haven't mentioned Kate's 10.00pm alert as being wrong. Can you address that please.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 16:03

Do you accept that this was the time they were all assembled for dinner?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 16:09

@Ringo wrote:Do you accept that this was the time they were all assembled for dinner?

Given that the timelines contain differences such as Matt's 9.35 check being on the second one but not on the first and given that both timelines have a 10.00pm Kate alert which we know to be false from the testimonty of others, i cannot say with certainty that i accept that, no.

With respect rather than cryptic one line posts can you get to the point in one post if possible so as to not clog the thread up with our toing and froing.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 16:11

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:Do you accept that this was the time they were all assembled for dinner?

Given that the timelines contain differences such as Matt's 9.35 check being on the second one but not on the first and given that both timelines have a 10.00pm Kate alert which we know to be false from the testimonty of others, i cannot say with certainty that i accept that, no.

With respect rather than cryptic one line posts can you get to the point in one post if possible so as to not clog the thread up with our toing and froing.

There is nothing cryptic in what I have posted. I was trying to establish exactly what you accept as factual in this case. It is clear that you won't commit to this one fact which is verified by the waiter, therefore I cannot proceed any further with my train of thought..

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 16:15

@Ringo wrote:There is nothing cryptic in what I have posted. I was trying to establish exactly what you accept as factual in this case. It is clear that you won't commit to this one fact which is verified by the waiter, therefore I cannot proceed any further with my train of thought..

My point was that had you just posted your train of thought we'd have saved a page of pointless posts going backwards and forwards.

What i am saying is that the two timelines have to be treated with suspicion given we know they contains differences.

However let's have your thoughts and we can discuss them.

I'm still waiitng for an answer regarding Kate's 10.00pm alert timeline. Do you accept this is wrong or do you think all the independent wintesses including the waiter (whose statement you have been relying on so far) are wrong?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 16:24

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:There is nothing cryptic in what I have posted. I was trying to establish exactly what you accept as factual in this case. It is clear that you won't commit to this one fact which is verified by the waiter, therefore I cannot proceed any further with my train of thought..

My point was that had you just posted your train of thought we'd have saved a page of pointless posts going backwards and forwards.

What i am saying is that the two timelines have to be treated with suspicion given we know they contains differences.

However let's have your thoughts and we can discuss them.

I'm still waiitng for an answer regarding Kate's 10.00pm alert timeline. Do you accept this is wrong or do you think all the independent wintesses including the waiter (whose statement you have been relying on so far) are wrong?

I was trying to approach this in a methodical order starting a the beginning of the timeline. However I'm not prepared to continue unless we can at least agree on this one thing. You've made it clear though that everything is "up for grabs" including the time dinner started which makes it pointless for me to continue with where I was going with this because you can counter every point I try to make with - "well we don't know when dinner started" and then we will have yet another circuitous discussion which gets nowhere.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 16:37

@Ringo wrote:I was trying to approach this in a methodical order starting a the beginning of the timeline. However I'm not prepared to continue unless we can at least agree on this one thing. You've made it clear though that everything is "up for grabs" including the time dinner started which makes it pointless for me to continue with where I was going with this because you can counter every point I try to make with - "well we don't know when dinner started" and then we will have yet another circuitous discussion which gets nowhere.

No you were aiming for a "gotcha" moment. I have stated that the timelines provided by the Tapas group are unreliable and i have serious doubts that 27 meals split into three courses plus drinks can be ordered, cooked, served and eaten in 45 minutes.

If you haven't got the courage to put your theory forward well there's nothing i can do about that.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 16:54

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:I was trying to approach this in a methodical order starting a the beginning of the timeline. However I'm not prepared to continue unless we can at least agree on this one thing. You've made it clear though that everything is "up for grabs" including the time dinner started which makes it pointless for me to continue with where I was going with this because you can counter every point I try to make with - "well we don't know when dinner started" and then we will have yet another circuitous discussion which gets nowhere.

No you were aiming for a "gotcha" moment. I have stated that the timelines provided by the Tapas group are unreliable and i have serious doubts that 27 meals split into three courses plus drinks can be ordered, cooked, served and eaten in 45 minutes.

If you haven't got the courage to put your theory forward well there's nothing i can do about that.

No, I was aiming to get to the truth of the matter, but as this seems to be a game of "gotcha" to you, then that is a pity beause we can't really continue. I already concede that you believe the Tapas group's timeline to be unreliable however here we have an independent witness statement that puts them both in the restaurant at 8.45 at the start of dinner, which presumably you also believe to be unreliable!

I don't have a theory at all by the way, I was simply wishing to look at the various statements again.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 17:08

@Ringo wrote:
@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:What time did Kate say that she and Gerry arrived at the restaurant?

i don't know why you're asking me the question when clearly you know the answer but from the files:

Kate Healy Statement 4th May:

Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband. Just after 8.30pm, the witness and her husband, after checking on their children, joined the other adults of the group at the "Tapas" restaurant, about 50 metres away, where they had dinner

September statement:
They talked while they drank, until they left for the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30-8.35 p.m. Before leaving they checked on the children, she doesn’t know who; however Gerry says it was him. She only knows the children were quiet. She doesn’t know if they were in their same positions. She says she is sure that they were asleep, because Gerry told her so and all was quiet.

Thanks. I was being lazy and I'm in the middle of doing other things. On the written timeline does it not have 8.45 as the time they all assembled for dinner? This corresponds with what the waiter said doesn't it? So they began the meal at 8.45pm. Is that agreed?


They didn't begin the meal at 8,45, and they weren't all assembled by then! According to Fiona Payne's rogatory she and her husband were late every night and it was a standing joke, and that particular night (3rd) they were later then usual as she says here in her rogatory statement.........................


F Payne rogatory:

1485 “Would you say that the time that you went down on Sunday is generally the same time that you went down every night?”
Reply “Erm, I was a bit later on the Thursday than normal because I wanted to go for a run. Erm, so, yeah, that was more I think sort of ten to, five to nine, it was, we were late that, that night”.

1485 “Yeah”.
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 17:09

@Ringo wrote:No, I was aiming to get to the truth of the matter, but as this seems to be a game of "gotcha" to you, then that is a pity beause we can't really continue. I already concede that you believe the Tapas group's timeline to be unreliable however here we have an independent witness statement that puts them both in the restaurant at 8.45 at the start of dinner, which presumably you also believe to be unreliable!

I don't have a theory at all by the way, I was simply wishing to look at the various statements again.

Given the evidence we've seen it's impossible to get to the truth of the matter when you are relying on statements from the Tapas group as your basis for the truth, which several independent witnesses (including the waiter) have contradicted.

You're starting off on rocky ground!

In relation to the start and completion of dinner have a look at this textusa post about the subject:

But the reality is, 9 people eventually get to the table at 21.10.

I think we can presume Jeronimo Salcedas took the orders for drinks and served them as he says he served the table frequently that night. Salcedas states he was frequently called to attend British clients as he speaks English and his colleagues had little knowledge of the English language.

The group could pretend to do what they did the night before and just order bottles of wine, more white than red, so to begin with, 2 white, 1 red and some water. The waiter selects the wine and bottles of water, brings them to the table and opens them and serves. Joaquim Baptista, now seems to have a good understanding of the English language because he says he took the orders for the food so 21.10 he opens his pad and goes around the table taking orders for starters and main courses at the same time according to Jane Tanner....what time is it now... 21.20? How many people have already left the table for visits to their apartments? 3 or 4 people?

Being so efficient he takes the orders in 2 minutes and as Gerry must have given his order first he is free to leave the table just after 21.10.

The starters arrive for 9 people, and being speedy cooks, by 21.30, now I'm impressed.

We are also told there is a lull between courses at 21.40. The chef has to cook Russell’s steak on the outside grill after starters were prepared and served but then must go back into the restaurant to prepare the other meals. I wonder where their sardines were cooked?

He goes out a second time to prepare another steak for Russell later on. Dianne Webster says they have 3 courses as NORMAL, so this is going to be a bit of a challenge to fit them all in on the 3rd May.

Gerry orders sausage and potato starter ...so what time did all 9 starters arrive at the table if they were having cooked starters?...21.30 with super efficient staff? It takes 10 minutes to eat them and clear away ...21.40? That's being quick! One wonders if they were able to converse at all... and clarifies the need of so much wine to wash things down that quickly...

As they ordered main courses with starters, that would have added a few minutes to the initial order but then the waiter does not need to go back to the table to take the more orders. 9 main courses arrive 9.45? VERY IMPRESSIVE but there again there was nobody else in the Tapas restaurant needing attention by this time.

So by some time machine miracle those 9 people have main courses while fitting in room visits and have desserts (although Russell has to have a second steak cooked...he must like rare steak) and 11 more bottles of wine....all before 21.50 when Kate leaves the Tapas.

40 minutes in total by which time at least 28 plates of food and 14 bottles of wine have been delivered to the table.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 17:25

@Me wrote:
Given the evidence we've seen it's impossible to get to the truth of the matter when you are relying on statements from the Tapas group as your basis for the truth, which several independent witnesses (including the waiter) have contradicted.

You're starting off on rocky ground!


Er...well that's why I was using the waiter's statement as the starting point. Do you accept that the waiter in question was one of the best placed independent witnesses to the events at the restaurant that evening? And that therefore when he says he first saw K & G at 8.45pm we can state quite confidently that they were both there before the meal had been ordered at that time?


In relation to the start and completion of dinner have a look at this textusa post about the subject:

But the reality is, 9 people eventually get to the table at 21.10.

I think we can presume Jeronimo Salcedas took the orders for drinks and served them as he says he served the table frequently that night. Salcedas states he was frequently called to attend British clients as he speaks English and his colleagues had little knowledge of the English language.

The group could pretend to do what they did the night before and just order bottles of wine, more white than red, so to begin with, 2 white, 1 red and some water. The waiter selects the wine and bottles of water, brings them to the table and opens them and serves. Joaquim Baptista, now seems to have a good understanding of the English language because he says he took the orders for the food so 21.10 he opens his pad and goes around the table taking orders for starters and main courses at the same time according to Jane Tanner....what time is it now... 21.20? How many people have already left the table for visits to their apartments? 3 or 4 people?

Being so efficient he takes the orders in 2 minutes and as Gerry must have given his order first he is free to leave the table just after 21.10.

The starters arrive for 9 people, and being speedy cooks, by 21.30, now I'm impressed.

We are also told there is a lull between courses at 21.40. The chef has to cook Russell’s steak on the outside grill after starters were prepared and served but then must go back into the restaurant to prepare the other meals. I wonder where their sardines were cooked?

He goes out a second time to prepare another steak for Russell later on. Dianne Webster says they have 3 courses as NORMAL, so this is going to be a bit of a challenge to fit them all in on the 3rd May.

Gerry orders sausage and potato starter ...so what time did all 9 starters arrive at the table if they were having cooked starters?...21.30 with super efficient staff? It takes 10 minutes to eat them and clear away ...21.40? That's being quick! One wonders if they were able to converse at all... and clarifies the need of so much wine to wash things down that quickly...

As they ordered main courses with starters, that would have added a few minutes to the initial order but then the waiter does not need to go back to the table to take the more orders. 9 main courses arrive 9.45? VERY IMPRESSIVE but there again there was nobody else in the Tapas restaurant needing attention by this time.

So by some time machine miracle those 9 people have main courses while fitting in room visits and have desserts (although Russell has to have a second steak cooked...he must like rare steak) and 11 more bottles of wine....all before 21.50 when Kate leaves the Tapas.

40 minutes in total by which time at least 28 plates of food and 14 bottles of wine have been delivered to the table.
[/quote]

Let's just stick to the statements and not muddy the waters with someone else's snide interpretations of events.

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The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 17:35

@Ringo wrote:Er...well that's why I was using the waiter's statement as the starting point. Do you accept that the waiter in question was one of the best placed independent witnesses to the events at the restaurant that evening? And that therefore when he says he first saw K & G at 8.45pm we can state quite confidently that they were both there before the meal had been ordered at that time?

No, you'd moved on to asking me what time Kate said they arrived. The waiter was in a position to know only what was going on in the restaurant in so much as he was taking orders and delivering them.

However he has not actually provided that much information has he because he doesn't know who was there and when and he certainly doesn't put Gerry there at the time of the Smiths sighting.

He is also not in a position to know what was going on outside of the restaurant and if an alarm was being raised elsewhere. So we have to treat his evidence in context against what the T9 claimed happened and what other witnesses reported.

It can't be used to disprove the executive chef's evidence nor the property manager's can it?

@Ringo wrote:Let's just stick to the statements and not muddy the waters with someone else's snide interpretations of events.

Well you may not like the tone of the article but it does raise valid issues about times and timelines doesn't it. 40 minutes is not long enough is it?

You've STILL not mentioned Kate's 10.00pm timeline despite my repeated requests for you to answer that point. Why is that?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 17:47

I have split this topic from Pat Brown thread as it was getting confusing, and that thread should be left for people talking about her book and asking any relevant questions.
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 18:03

candyfloss wrote:I have split this topic from Pat Brown thread as it was getting confusing, and that thread should be left for people talking about her book and asking any relevant questions.

Sorry candy, i consider myself suitably rebuked!

It all started due to my bringing up the time line put forward by Kate and the group into question which i felt was important in the context of Pat's theory.

I won't derail again!!

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