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Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Verdi on 29.07.17 23:51

To: Ricard Paiva
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007


Leicester Police Constabulary

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.
 

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."

but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there.

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.

He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.

For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations.

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by BlueBag on 30.07.17 8:00

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. 

Oh come on!

Have the Police had lobotomies?

There are massive red flags all over this case.

Most of the Police in this case (who are ALL following orders) must be thinking WTF?
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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Phoebe on 30.07.17 10:21

@ Verdi. Many Thanks for posting that info  thumbup. Wow! I'd forgotten how gently Payne was handled by L.P.  I imagine he must have given some response to the Gaspar claims but I'd bet it was so lame that the obliging L.P. held onto it and waffled on his behalf. How Op. Grange could read this memorandum and not see grounds to revisit it is mind-boggling. This is, allegedly, the last "independent" witness to see Madeleine alive and he completely contradicts his own, his wife's and others' statements re. this crucial visit and cannot even explain why it was made. Stinks to high heaven!!
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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Verdi on 30.07.17 13:19

BlueBag wrote:
He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. 

Oh come on!

Have the Police had lobotomies?

There are massive red flags all over this case.

Most of the Police in this case (who are ALL following orders) must be thinking WTF?
A blatant contradiction compared to his formal statement on 4th May 2007 and the rogatory interview one year later.

Timing shifts forward by an hour or so and Gerry McCann is whooshed from the scene. 

Little did they know that all this information would be made public.

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Verdi on 30.07.17 13:22

Phoebe wrote:@ Verdi. Many Thanks for posting that info  thumbup. Wow! I'd forgotten how gently Payne was handled by L.P.  I imagine he must have given some response to the Gaspar claims but I'd bet it was so lame that the obliging L.P. held onto it and waffled on his behalf. How Op. Grange could read this memorandum and not see grounds to revisit it is mind-boggling. This is, allegedly, the last "independent" witness to see Madeleine alive and he completely contradicts his own, his wife's and others' statements re. this crucial visit and cannot even explain why it was made. Stinks to high heaven!!
So again a shadow of doubt is cast over Operation Grange.

The Metropolitan Police might have the ability to plug the holes faster than they appear but they can't wipe out what's on public record.  They must be squirming with humiliation - if they're not, they ruddy well should be !!!

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by worriedmum on 30.07.17 17:01

I'm shocked by the differences in the accounts of where David Payne was on 3rd May and for how long! And the 'Fiona' factor too!
 Didn't David Payne ring the polce in London on 3rd of May?
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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by BlueBag on 30.07.17 19:16

Friends and family of David Payne will read this thread.

If they do, they need to ask him what it's all about.
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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Verdi on 30.07.17 21:20

BlueBag wrote:Friends and family of David Payne will read this thread.

If they do, they need to ask him what it's all about.
Friends and family, for whatever reason, have a 'orrible habit of turning a blind eye on matters of an unsavoury nature.

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Verdi on 30.07.17 22:31

worriedmum wrote:
 Didn't David Payne ring the polce in London on 3rd of May?
 1485  "Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn't find in your phone''

 Reply "Yes.'

1485  "That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.'

Reply "Mm.'

1485  "Did you contact them''

Reply  "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can't remember, I don't think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn't carried forward.'

1485  "Yeah.'

Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we're in a strange country, we've got no representeers we don't know what's going on, all hell's broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.'

1485 "Do you remember who you spoke to'

Reply "I don't know.'

1485  "The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that's late at night.'
 
Reply "Mm.'

 1485  "You don't recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call''
 Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can't remember making one late at night.'

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Nothing suspicious here - a very selective memory has David Payne and his chums.

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Phoebe on 30.07.17 23:11

From David Payne's rogatory statement

"... so again there was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as well, err Mark Warner's are generally I think half, you know half board and that wasn't on offer so there's some differences with Mark, that, that particular err venue compared with the other Mark Warner's that the, that the couples I've already mentioned had been on previously.' 

Why is Payne trying to claim dinner was not included in the holiday cost? I understood they were "half board" ie. breakfast and dinner included in the holiday package. Poor Gerry if this is the case, having to pay for breakfast, lunch and dinner each day. I do remember some claims over the years that only the Millenium food was part of the package deal. Is Payne claiming they would have had to pay for dinner anyway as another excuse for why they chose the Tapas?
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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Verdi on 31.07.17 0:33

David Payne speaks err .. the err .. you know, the truth the err .. err .. hole truth and you know err .. err .. nufink like the truth..

Reply "The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted me which I didn't mention while I was at the Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of Simon ALDRIDGE'S who you know who kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to the Portim' Police Station and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was that the question''

1485 "Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.'
-----

Later in interview..

1485  "Who lent you these phones that SA [Simon Aldridge] had organised for you''

Reply  "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.'
1485  "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive''

Reply  "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the Police Station [4th May], err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there, so.'

1485  "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were''

Reply  "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.'

1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there''

Reply  "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.'

1485 "Yeah.

Reply "So err yeah.'

1485 "So the two phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry''


Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.'

1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone''

Reply "I don't, no, no.'

1485 "Where are these phones now''

Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again''

1485 "With whom''

Reply "With Kate and Gerry.'

1485  "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had''

Reply  "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got the second phone.'

1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address''

Reply  "Err that is a strong possibility.'

1485 "So two Samsung phones.'
 
Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.'

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.'


Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "Did you use the phones often''

Reply "Not''

1485 "In Portugal''

Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.'

1485 "Yeah.'

Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other phone as well.'

1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone''
 
Reply "I'd say Fiona.'

1485 "Fiona''
Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "And has it been used since it's been in the UK''

Reply "No.'

1485 "Okay, okay.'

Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.'

1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then''

Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.'

1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them''

Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.'

1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).'

Reply "Okay.'

 01:08:40 DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
 01:09:00 DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.

1485 "All done.'

Reply "Okay.'

1485 "The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home''

Reply "I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you're welcome to have that phone.'

1485 "Okay, do you know where you'd be able to put your hand on it if you''

Reply "Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.'

1485 "Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.'

Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Err ...... The End


Funnily enough, there's a detective series on the television in the background.  The crime squad have just seized mobile phones from the home of the prime suspect - phones that it would seem were used exclusively for the suspects criminal activities.  Small world innit?

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by BlueBag on 31.07.17 7:33

The phone thing is pretty amazing.


1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then''

Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.'

Amazing. 

Sounds like all those phones in the first season of "Line of Duty".
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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by JRP on 31.07.17 12:08

First of all, David Payne says Kate's phone had nearly ran out, so Kate and Gerry had the second phone, while Payne kept the first. This implies that Kate's phone was a Pay As You Go phone, rather than a monthly contract phone.
Later on, Payne says they used these phones so not to run up an expense on our own phones. "Our phones" being plural, this implies that both the Payne's and McCann's phones were capable of running up an expensive bill, this in turn implies that they were monthly contract phones.
If they were capable of running up an expensive bill, then Kate's phone could not have been in the state he describes, "nearly ran out".

I guess non of the above really matters much, apart from showing the ambiguity of Payne's ramblings, once again.
Whichever way it reads, both the McCann's and David Payne had their own mobile phones, yet, for some reason, they needed two more.

The Samsung S300 was launched in May 2007, and cost around 60 Euros, and both Samsung phones arrived with either £40 or 40 Euros worth of credit on them.
What he is saying is, they were both (Payne's and McCann's) worried about running up an expensive telephone bill on their own phones, so to save money, they went to the expense of having two new Samsung phones supplied to them at the cost of around 200 Euros.

A Pay As You Go mobile phone number and owner/user can be anonymous. Even now, the owner or user of one of these phones would be hard to trace, especially if the phone and credit top-up was paid for by cash.

Payne describes his phone as being used to "establish communication". He doesn't say, to phone home, or to order pizza, establish communication sounds like a strange choice of phrase. Slightly covert perhaps. It sounds like once this communication was established, (his phone at least) was heavily used. Despite stating that they didn't use the phone very much, the Payne's phone ran out of 40 Euros or £40 credit possibly within 3 weeks, or at most 4 weeks of use.
Despite being worried about spending money on communication, he doesn't know where his 60 Euro Samsung was, when asked by DC Messiah.

And finally, when asked about handing over the Samsung phone, he offers DC Messiah his other phone to have a look through instead.
Obviously for some reason, Payne would rather them have a peep at that one, rather than handing over the Portuguese Samsung.

Ah well  laughat

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by sandancer on 31.07.17 13:35

Ah yes D.C Messiah ! 

"Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth ?" 

D.P. " Err, the , there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up !" 

D.C. " Okay " 

What an investigator !

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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Phoebe on 31.07.17 13:51

snipped from Telegraph article 20th Sept.'07

  "It is thought their mobile phone calls have been tracked retrospectively back to May 3, the night Madeleine vanished, using satellite technology to pinpoint their location.
A source close to the couple said: "British police warned Kate and Gerry when they were in Portugal that their phones and emails might have been tapped into.
"They believed it was the case over there and nothing has changed their mind since their return.
"It would be wrong to say that their phone conversations are in any way furtive as a result of this.
"They are entirely innocent and have nothing whatsoever to hide, but they are being understandably cautious."
It seems the obliging L.P. advised Kate and Gerry that their mobiles could be being monitored. " Kate's phone ran out" my foot! It is child's play to top up abroad and with the fund to "help them" why would they worry about the pittance phones would cost in comparison to jetting about the world. Naw, innocent people do not need traceless disposable phones. Those involved in activity they'd rather the police didn't find out about tend to!
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Re: Let me help you Gerry: DAVID PAYNE may hold the key to the mystery

Post by Cmaryholmes on 31.07.17 13:59

Phoebe wrote:snipped from Telegraph article 20th Sept.'07

  "It is thought their mobile phone calls have been tracked retrospectively back to May 3, the night Madeleine vanished, using satellite technology to pinpoint their location.
A source close to the couple said: "British police warned Kate and Gerry when they were in Portugal that their phones and emails might have been tapped into.
"They believed it was the case over there and nothing has changed their mind since their return.
"It would be wrong to say that their phone conversations are in any way furtive as a result of this.
"They are entirely innocent and have nothing whatsoever to hide, but they are being understandably cautious."
It seems the obliging L.P. advised Kate and Gerry that their mobiles could be being monitored. " Kate's phone ran out" my foot! It is child's play to top up abroad and with the fund to "help them" why would they worry about the pittance phones would cost in comparison to jetting about the world. Naw, innocent people do not need traceless disposable phones. Those involved in activity they'd rather the police didn't find out about tend to!
Methinks this 'source' doth protest too much ! Entirely innocent! Nothing to hide! No furtiveness !

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Let me help you Gerry?

Post by willowthewisp on 31.07.17 14:34

sandancer wrote:Ah yes D.C Messiah ! 

"Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth ?" 

D.P. " Err, the , there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up !" 

D.C. " Okay " 

What an investigator !
Perhaps D.C Messiah gained promotion to the Metropolitan Police service alongside Stuart Cundy,alluding to the"Special Expertise quality" Scotland Yard/Metropolitan Police Service possess,this seems to be an ability to have"Cognitive Dissonance"in huge proportions on Police methods?
Mark Rowley,"Have you Formally interviewed Kate,Gerry under Caution",NO?
The Portugal PJ have previously dealt with Kate and Gerry and this is Not up for Re-Investigation,Period,Right?
Gerry was at the Tapas Bar,when Kate discovered Madeleine was No longer in the Holiday Apartment 3 May 2007,so it meant wasn't Gerry ruled out?
MR,however Madeleine left the Apartment was an"Abduction"as Madeleine was not a Twenty year old person when she(Madeleine) disappeared from the apartment,reported as 3 May 2007,so Madeleine wasn't able to have an Informed choice being nearly Four years old,top flight Police Work from Hendon there then?
You then have to wonder just how many times have the Police turned a blind eye in"Certain Situations" as it is Not in their best Interest to follow the case through to an Ultimate conclusion,Truth,"Without Fear No Favour"with Masonic influences to the"Brotherhood"?

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