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John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 17:40

@mike7777 wrote:

you need to understand it is not the alert that is important but the forensic analysis of what is found.


The dogs alerted and forensics were retrieved.  They were therefore successful

Forensic analysis of the blood that was found in the back of the car tells us that it may have been because Madeleine was in the trunk of the car...WEEKS after she disappeared.

It is not proof, but it is for the investigation to look at all the details that point to the possibility.

17 dog alerts gave them a place to start...
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 18:44

@HiDeHo wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:

you need to understand it is not the alert that is important but the forensic analysis of what is found.


The dogs alerted and forensics were retrieved.  They were therefore successful

Forensic analysis of the blood that was found in the back of the car tells us that it may have been because Madeleine was in the trunk of the car...WEEKS after she disappeared.

It is not proof, but it is for the investigation to look at all the details that point to the possibility.

17 dog alerts gave them a place to start...

as I said you need to understand it is not the alerts that are important but the forensic evidence recovered. in this case despite all the alerts the only alert confirmed was to Gerry's blood on the key fob. So unfortunately the dogs found nothing of any evidential value...according to Grime. That maybe because there was no evidence for them to find. There was certainly no blood found in the boot.

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:08

Where does it state that there was no blood found in the boot of the car?

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:11

@sammi1967 wrote:Where does it state that there was no blood found in the boot of the car?

It doesn't...it states that it was impossible to determine what cellular material it was....so no confirmation of blood...and none that it wasn't....

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:12

Just asking as you said there was certainly no blood found in the boot

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 19:15

@mike7777 wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:

you need to understand it is not the alert that is important but the forensic analysis of what is found.


The dogs alerted and forensics were retrieved.  They were therefore successful

Forensic analysis of the blood that was found in the back of the car tells us that it may have been because Madeleine was in the trunk of the car...WEEKS after she disappeared.

It is not proof, but it is for the investigation to look at all the details that point to the possibility.

17 dog alerts gave them a place to start...

as I said you need to understand it is not the alerts that are important but the forensic evidence recovered. in this case despite all the alerts the only alert confirmed was to Gerry's blood on the key fob. So unfortunately the dogs found nothing of any evidential value...according to Grime. That maybe because there was no evidence for them to find. There was certainly no blood found in the boot.


The ONLY alert was to Gerry's blood? (both the BLOOD and the CADAVER dog gave an alert to the key fob)






How about the BLOOD found behind the sofa?

'All of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the  profile of Madeleine McCann'






Also, lets not forget about the BLOOD spot with 15 of Madeleine's 19 markers found in the back of the rental car...






Blood WAS found in the back of the car.  Keela alerted and as you can see she ONLY alerts to BLOOD...


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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:16

@sammi1967 wrote:Just asking as you said there was certainly no blood found in the boot

I'm happy to be corrected. As far as we know there was no blood found in the boot

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by goodqualitywristbands on 22.11.15 19:18

@mike7777 wrote:
@sammi1967 wrote:Just asking as you said there was certainly no blood found in the boot

I'm happy to be corrected. As far as we know there was no blood found in the boot

 What did Keela alert to?
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:21

and if Eddie alerts to cadaver and blood and Keela alerts only to blood hence why she was only ever brought in if Eddie alerted? It's not rocket science is it ? Do you also believe dogs to be 'incredibly unreliable'?

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 19:23

@mike7777 wrote:
@sammi1967 wrote:Just asking as you said there was certainly no blood found in the boot

I'm happy to be corrected. As far as we know there was no blood found in the boot


FSS cannot claim which body fluid of any sample.  The sample was retrieved by a BLOOD dog, who does not alert to anything other than blood (see post above)

THEREFORE.... it was BLOOD that was found in the back of the car.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:27

@HiDeHo wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:

you need to understand it is not the alert that is important but the forensic analysis of what is found.


The dogs alerted and forensics were retrieved.  They were therefore successful

Forensic analysis of the blood that was found in the back of the car tells us that it may have been because Madeleine was in the trunk of the car...WEEKS after she disappeared.

It is not proof, but it is for the investigation to look at all the details that point to the possibility.

17 dog alerts gave them a place to start...

as I said you need to understand it is not the alerts that are important but the forensic evidence recovered. in this case despite all the alerts the only alert confirmed was to Gerry's blood on the key fob. So unfortunately the dogs found nothing of any evidential value...according to Grime. That maybe because there was no evidence for them to find. There was certainly no blood found in the boot.


The ONLY alert was to Gerry's blood? (both the BLOOD and the CADAVER dog gave an alert to the key fob)






How about the BLOOD found behind the sofa?

'All of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the  profile of Madeleine McCann'






Also, lets not forget about the BLOOD spot with 15 of Madeleine's 19 markers found in the back of the rental car...






Blood WAS found in the back of the car.  Keela alerted and as you can see she ONLY alerts to BLOOD...



you do realise that the cadaver dog reacts to blood as well as cadaver so the reaction to the fob confirms only blood...as the forensics did. The other samples contained dna from more than one person........the 15 markers may well have come from more than one person . Amaral completely misunderstood both the alerts and the dna evidence

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 19:29

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:33

As I just stated Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver ...that's the job of the cadaver dog. The blood dog only alerts to blood hence why Keela was brought in after Eddie alerted. Why is the dog evidence such a touchy subject for some? Surely rather than finding reasons to discredit them everyone should be looking to see how and why they found what they did .

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:36

@HiDeHo wrote:
you are quoting selectively and out of context. "dna was found whose components were also found in the profile of MM"....Lowe has already told us that these components are common to many people not just Maddie

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:36

And I think one of the biggest questions in this is why Sky News reported a 100% match to M and then backtracked . When has anything like that ever occured before in a major investigation of this kind?

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:38

@sammi1967 wrote:As I just stated Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver ...that's the job of the cadaver dog. The blood dog only alerts to blood hence why Keela was brought in after Eddie alerted. Why is the dog evidence such a touchy subject for some? Surely rather than finding reasons to discredit them everyone should be looking to see how and why they found what they did .

I'm not discrediting the dogs....I am simply looking at what they found...not a lot I'm afraid. The only thing they found that was confirmed was Gerry's blood.

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:40

@sammi1967 wrote:And I think one of the biggest questions in this is why Sky News reported a 100% match to M and then backtracked . When has anything like that ever occured before in a major investigation of this kind?

SKY never reported a 100% match...they reported that Portuguese sources claimed a 100% match...it was the sources that were wrong

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:41

The keyfob only accounts for one alert and shows a correct alert at that. How many others were there exactly?

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:42

That's twisting things somewhat. They either reported it or they didn't. It's always from a source.

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 19:42

@mike7777 wrote:

you do realise that the cadaver dog reacts to blood as well as cadaver so the reaction to the fob confirms only blood...as the forensics did. The other samples contained dna from more than one person........the 15 markers may well have come from more than one person . Amaral completely misunderstood both the alerts and the dna evidence


You are correct.  Eddie alerts to CADAVER odour AND blood

Both Eddie and Keela alerted to the key fob. Blood confirmed.

Eddie and Keela also alerted behind the sofa. Blood confirmed

Keela alerted to back of car. Blood confirmed.

Keela alerted under the tile behind the sofa.  Blood confirmed. (from a forensics officer)

Keela alerted to blood on the curtain.

Eddie alerted to ONLY cadaver odour in SEVERAL other places.

Cadaver alerts require corroboration by the investigation to confirm a body was in that location.  They are an indication.

Maybe the new tests available for hair (that was also found at the back of the car) will corroborate the cadaver alerts.
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by HiDeHo on 22.11.15 19:45

@mike7777 wrote:

I'm not discrediting the dogs....I am simply looking at what they found...not a lot I'm afraid. The only thing they found that was confirmed was Gerry's blood.


 An INCORRECT statement as I have pointed out previously
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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:46

@HiDeHo wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:

you do realise that the cadaver dog reacts to blood as well as cadaver so the reaction to the fob confirms only blood...as the forensics did. The other samples contained dna from more than one person........the 15 markers may well have come from more than one person . Amaral completely misunderstood both the alerts and the dna evidence


You are correct.  Eddie alerts to CADAVER odour AND blood

Both Eddie and Keela alerted to the key fob. Blood confirmed.

Eddie and Keela also alerted behind the sofa. Blood confirmed

Keela alerted to back of car. Blood confirmed.

Keela alerted under the tile behind the sofa.  Blood confirmed. (from a forensics officer)

Keela alerted to blood on the curtain.

Eddie alerted to ONLY cadaver odour in SEVERAL other places.

Cadaver alerts require corroboration by the investigation to confirm a body was in that location.  They are an indication.

Maybe the new tests available for hair (that was also found at the back of the car) will corroborate the cadaver alerts.

maybe they will...maybe they wont...at the moment there is no evidence that blood was found in the car

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by mike7777 on 22.11.15 19:47

@HiDeHo wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:

I'm not discrediting the dogs....I am simply looking at what they found...not a lot I'm afraid. The only thing they found that was confirmed was Gerry's blood.


 An INCORRECT statement as I have pointed out previously

its true...what else was confirmed forensically

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by sammi1967 on 22.11.15 19:49

You lay it out much better than I can  @HideHo . I don't understand how anyone can argue against the dogs findings after all that has been learnt over the years.  As for the hair....now that's an interesting one... and something that we havn't heard to much about. Was it in a tv interview with Mr Amaral that the hair was mentioned?

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Re: John Lowe tells us there was a MATCH to Maddie in the car & more about DNA & FORENSICS

Post by Verdi on 22.11.15 20:01

@mike7777 wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@mike7777 wrote:
@Richard IV wrote:It was a BLOOD dog that alerted, so it was BLOOD.

the alerts have to have forensic confirmation to be of value according to Grime  so in the real world the alert has no value
In a court of law as stand alone evidence no, it would have little value BUT as intelligence in a criminal investigation it's a minefield! 

Had a positive result emanated from the FSS analysis of the samples harvested, i.e. a positive match to MBM's DNA, that would be evidence in itself.  Do you think that could be the reason why such conflicting reports initially came out of the FSS and why the final report was so evasive?  Remember, it's not only this isolated sample analysis that proved inconclusive, if I remember correctly the same applied to almost every sample analyzed by the FSS laboratories appertaining to the investigation into MBM's disappearance.

Thought for the day:  Did you know that the father of genetic fingerprinting, Dr. Alec Jeffreys, hails from the University of Leicester (he even had his EUREKA moment there) and is affiliated with the University of Amsterdam through earlier years in his illustrious career?

Small world!

as I have already said the presence of Maddie's DNA in the car would prove nothing...what are you suggesting re Alec Jeffreys
I don't believe anyone on this forum has claimed that the presence of MBM's DNA in the hired car proves anything but it would certainly be a very important pointer as regards the investigation.  Tell me, if you were a police detective, would you so readily dismiss the possibility of the body of MBM (dead or alive) having been in a car hired by her parents after her disappearance - or would you cast the thought aside in the absence of forensic corroboration?

In the past when I've questioned why UK forensic laboratories were called on to analyze sample relative to the investigation I was assured that it was because of their expertise in the field of LCN DNA - indeed so specialized were they in the field that almost every analysis resulted in 'too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.  Don't you think that to be a trifle odd?

Why do you think the Renault Scenic was later sequestered by the McCanns in order to undertake their own off the record forensic examination?

Dr. Alec Jeffreys?  I'm not suggesting anything, just stating a fact.

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